Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why you are quoting Jennifer. You really do shift the argument don't you?

Because Jennifer agrees with my point that you'd have to be a very special player (POC & Thorn are special players) to make it as an international lock at 6'5".

I don't think Tuohy is that special.

Yeah, I see that, but you replied to rodders/Mickado who pointed out the article YOU wrote suggested that players at 6 foot 5 and over could go for that Leinster program. Quoting Jennifer didn't actually fix the fact you are twisting your own article..

Rory, I didn't write the article. Thats a press release from Leinster Rugby

Edit: this is my contribution at the end of the article:

Seems I was right when I argued that any lock under 6'6" are going to have very limited chances of progressing. Whatever hope they have at club level, they won'th have a chance at international level.

The dynamics, timing and the physics of a lineout are far more important than sheer height. That goes without saying to be honest. 6'5" is not too small for a lock as it boils down to individual skills and the skills of the lifters and thrower.

All i am saying is that Locks are becoming more and more taller which is why there is merit to what Sin é is saying. 6'10" agains 6'1" is a pretty big difference but at the end of the day the 6'10" lock still has to be good at his trade.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why you are quoting Jennifer. You really do shift the argument don't you?

Because Jennifer agrees with my point that you'd have to be a very special player (POC & Thorn are special players) to make it as an international lock at 6'5".

I don't think Tuohy is that special.

Tuohy was good enough to get a slot on the Rabo dream team in a league that contains Ritchie Grey and as has repeadedly been pointed out Ulster had the best lineout in Europe this season.

What has DOC achieved this year to warrant selection?

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why you are quoting Jennifer. You really do shift the argument don't you?

Because Jennifer agrees with my point that you'd have to be a very special player (POC & Thorn are special players) to make it as an international lock at 6'5".

I don't think Tuohy is that special.

Yeah, I see that, but you replied to rodders/Mickado who pointed out the article YOU wrote suggested that players at 6 foot 5 and over could go for that Leinster program. Quoting Jennifer didn't actually fix the fact you are twisting your own article..

Rory, I didn't write the article. Thats a press release from Leinster Rugby

Obviously I meant you wrote the thread based on the article, because I find it unlikely you would be supporting the Leinster cause by looking for second rows anyway.. plus the minimum would have been a strict 6 foot 6.

"Seems I was right when I argued that any lock under 6'6" are going to have very limited chances of progressing. Whatever hope they have at club level, they won'th have a chance at international level."

You think you are right when the article actually states that it is for 6 foot 5 and over? How does that even work Sin?

Which brings us ful lcircle.

Rather than decide here and now whether he is good enough lets given him a chance ahead of players he has out performed this year e.g. DOC.

Height is a positive attribute but so are many many other aspects of a players game. Their is nothing magical about 6' 6"

Not sure what Jennifer means by saying he has been out a lot - has he been on holidays or away for weekends or something ???

As far a Rugby is concerned he has started 27 games for Ulster this year out of a maximum 31.

eirebilly wrote:The dynamics, timing and the physics of a lineout are far more important than sheer height. That goes without saying to be honest. 6'5" is not too small for a lock as it boils down to individual skills and the skills of the lifters and thrower.

All i am saying is that Locks are becoming more and more taller which is why there is merit to what Sin é is saying. 6'10" agains 6'1" is a pretty big difference but at the end of the day the 6'10" lock still has to be good at his trade.

Billy, hits the nail on the head. Yes, quite a few inches make a difference in some aspects of the game...but niggling over whether 6'6" can match a 6' 7" player is bunk. Yes, he can. If he can't he shouldn't play rugby. There is no way a 6'7" man jumping in a lineout Always achieves his maximum advantageous height of that plus-one inch or that it matters anyway if his hand to eye coordination is off or if a sub-par hooker is feeding him.

eirebilly wrote:All i am saying is that Locks are becoming more and more taller which is why there is merit to what Sin é is saying. 6'10" agains 6'1" is a pretty big difference but at the end of the day the 6'10" lock still has to be good at his trade.

Locks are not necessarily getting taller. Ritchie Grey might look great running around and in the lineout but he is at a mechanical disadvantage in the scrum and also when hitting rucks because of his high centre of gravity. Toner too has problems because of his height.

The optimum height will likely always be between 6'6-6'8 but theres no reason a player a few inches either side of that can't be selected either, which is why this argument has no merit whatsoever.

I absolutely guarantee that Tuohy has a higher standing jump than O'Callaghan, who has never been known as great lineout jumper.

Regardless of any reservations people may have who are the alternatives ?

Please list the players who play lock and are under 30.

Tuohy, Toner, Stevenson, Nagle, Browne + ?

There is a reason Gray is paired with Hamilton (who plays the enforcer role).

geoff998rugby wrote:Regardless of any reservations people may have who are the alternatives ?

Please list the players who play lock and are under 30.

Tuohy, Toner, Stevenson, Nagle, Browne + ?

Henderson.. he will overtake most of those guys IMO over the next few years.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Not sure what Jennifer means by saying he has been out a lot - has he been on holidays or away for weekends or something ???

As far a Rugby is concerned he has started 27 games for Ulster this year out of a maximum 31.

Jenifers comment was an old one Geoff, from last season I think.

...wow, so this conversation is still going huh? Jesus wept.

It does seem all threads involving Sin go in a winding circle, as he will never admit defeat in his life.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Not sure why you are quoting Jennifer. You really do shift the argument don't you?

Because Jennifer agrees with my point that you'd have to be a very special player (POC & Thorn are special players) to make it as an international lock at 6'5".

I don't think Tuohy is that special.

Tuohy was good enough to get a slot on the Rabo dream team in a league that contains Ritchie Grey and as has repeadedly been pointed out Ulster had the best lineout in Europe this season.

What has DOC achieved this year to warrant selection?

Richie Gray (like Paul O'Connell & a few other international locks that were at the world cup) hardly played in the Rabo this season. Tuohy started 18 games to Gray's 8.

I've repeatedly explained to you what DOC has got over Tuohy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Regardless of any reservations people may have who are the alternatives ?

Please list the players who play lock and are under 30.

Tuohy, Toner, Stevenson, Nagle, Browne + ?

Henderson.. he will overtake most of those guys IMO over the next few years.

Only 6' 6" - no chance

I've reached the point were getting Sin E to admit he's wrong would be a bigger achievement than Ireland beating the Allblacks .....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It does seem all threads involving Sin go in a winding circle, as he will never admit defeat in his life.

He should be banned for sheer tedium alone. Christ, what if you actually wanted to talk about the tour?

No you haven't. You have listed some of his achievements in the past which mean flip all at this point, and suggested he is better in the scrum without actually having anything to back up your suggestion. When rodders asked for the specifics, you bailed.

we will never know if tuohy is going to be international class until we pick him for a meaningful game. cant write him off until this day. no doubt donners and donncha ryan will start all games in nz presuming paulie is injured. tuohy will get a few cameo appearances off the bench at best.

how could you throw a small 2nd row into such a big game too much of a risk etc etc ad nauseum

Sin é wrote:
I've repeatedly explained to you what DOC has got over Tuohy.

No you've repeadedly said he's an inch taller and invented the story that he was better in the scrums.

Which games would you say O'Callaghan has played well in this year and I'll go and rewatch them?

good efforts guys, the tour hasnt even started yet and almost 1000 posts already !
read somewhere that Boss is out injured (hence my visit on this thread) but might have missed the post?

I think O'Driscoll is actually sub-height for BOD. We all know BOD, we all hear the legendary tales retold and yet when you see him, especially with the civies on....I don't know...I think he's below height for legendary status, given that you need to be at leat 6'3" to have done the things he has done in his career.

I think Sin é doesn't realise it, but he's exposed O'Driscoll.

whocares wrote:good efforts guys, the tour hasnt even started yet and almost 1000 posts already !
read somewhere that Boss is out injured (hence my visit on this thread) but might have missed the post?

Boss? Came in 2 inches short, even when standing on a Bible.

Yes Boss is out.

Christ I give up! really! ..... DOC get your kit on, Tuohy feic off son you're too short.......

SecretFly wrote:

whocares wrote:good efforts guys, the tour hasnt even started yet and almost 1000 posts already !
read somewhere that Boss is out injured (hence my visit on this thread) but might have missed the post?

Boss? Came in 2 inches short, even when standing on a Bible.

Don't get started on Paul Marshall

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I've repeatedly explained to you what DOC has got over Tuohy.

No you've repeadedly said he's an inch taller and invented the story that he was better in the scrums.

Which games would you say O'Callaghan has played well in this year and I'll go and rewatch them?

I said that Tuohy is a 'Break Glass' option. DOC edges it on him because of his familiarty with Ryan and his experience, bearing in mind that Ryan isn't that experienced. Note, I even said I'd have Cullen there for leadership.

Requoting my post (2981).

Its about Tuohy being a 'break glass' option rather than about who actually starts.

From what I have gleaned from various sources is that Gert Smal favours DOC because he is a better scrummager than the rest of the other options available (Ryan, Toner, Cullen etc.)

Munster has a good tighthead in Botha so that is why Ryan can start ahead of him there.

If POC is out, I'd start Ryan & DOC as they have played a bit with each other with Tuohy off the bench, though I think Ireland could do with Leo Cullen to provide leadership for the pack.

rodders wrote:I've reached the point were getting Sin E to admit he's wrong would be a bigger achievement than Ireland beating the Allblacks .....

Why do you have to persuade me that I'm wrong? I couldn't give a rats arse whether you think Tuohy is the greatest thing since the slice pan - I just know that he is going to find it very difficult to get ahead of 6'7" Ryan to partner POC.

I just know that he is going to find it very difficult to get ahead of 6'7" Ryan to partner POC.

We are arguing for his inclusion ahead of O Callaghan, but its well you know it.

What are you talking about? Show me one post where anyone said he should start ahead of Ryan.

You are changing the goal posts again.

What was said that he should be in ahead of DOC.

I know exactly the comments from Smal regarding DOC's scrummaging and they were specific to DOC starting ahead of Donnacha Ryan because Ryan is deemed too lightweight to bind behind the Tighthead.

They were not in anyway a reference to Tuohy (or anyone else) who is both heavier in the tight and more dynamic in the loose than O'Callaghan.

You either know this and are a complete bluffer or you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

Is this some of the reasoning that goes on in the Irish camp amongst coaches? I mean do they think like Sin é and rank players according to inches? Is that what the difference is between 'Provincial quality players' and the 'Step-UP at International' I keep hearing about now?

Welsh players are 'better' 'cause they are taller. No, that they're taller means Ireland must be smarter, that's all. Again, the height thing distracts from the real issues and are designed to. The real issues are coaching.

After Shane Williams this weekend surely the height thing is a Red Herring Secret England have seen the light not the height and they have gone for Wade.

No the real issue Fly is 'fans' who are more concerned with seeing men from their province be selected than whether or not the national side win or lose.

RubyGuby wrote:After Shane Williams this weekend surely the height thing is a Red Herring Secret England have seen the light not the height and they have gone for Wade.

Don't keep picking on me, Ruby...people will begin to talk. Read the thing first and then you'll see height is a big deal for one of us in the room - but not me RED herring - good one by the way Sin é will appreciate the salute.

rodders wrote:No the real issue Fly is 'fans' who are more concerned with seeing men from their province be selected than whether or not the national side win or lose.

Ah, so it IS a coaching issue, Rodders!

Only kidding...reasonable Kidney fans

Does Sin e' think Devin Toner is the best rugby player in Ireland 'cos he's 6 ft 49 ins ?

He's not 6' 50"...which is a bummer as that marks him down as just super tall without the fringe benefits of being from Munster.

BoyneRFC wrote:

I just know that he is going to find it very difficult to get ahead of 6'7" Ryan to partner POC.

We are arguing for his inclusion ahead of O Callaghan, but its well you know it.

Third time to post this - do you suffer from attention deficit disorder or something?

If POC is out, I'd start Ryan & DOC as they have played a bit with each other with Tuohy off the bench, though I think Ireland could do with Leo Cullen to provide leadership for the pack.

Sin, I wouldn't get impatient with people for having to post things 3 times. People must have posted the same thing to you at least 50 times and you are none the wiser..

Shane only posted 2 on Sunday

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:I've reached the point were getting Sin E to admit he's wrong would be a bigger achievement than Ireland beating the Allblacks .....

Why do you have to persuade me that I'm wrong? I couldn't give a rats arse whether you think Tuohy is the greatest thing since the slice pan - I just know that he is going to find it very difficult to get ahead of 6'7" Ryan to partner POC.

Even by your standard that is some straw man.

No one has said Tuohy is the greatestthing since sliced bread and no one has said POC or Ryan should be droped for his inclusion.

Just answer two simple questions.
Which under 30 years old Irish locks are better than Tuohy ?
Who has had the better season Tuohy or DOC ?

I await your replies more in hope than anticipation.
I see another 'Go off at a tangent' moment coming on...............


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