Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

It's Tuohy, Mick. But yeah I think so. Enjoy the night out, feicing bate here, tough sesh early on. Bit of Fifa and maybe a movie, sorted.

Mickado wrote:Isn't Touhy the same size as Brad Thorn?

Would'nt know Mick, i am not a shower peeker myself

Total disgrace. No Madigan. No D. Kearney. No Gilroy.

Roll on 2013.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - I will accept your theory that Tuohy is too small for international rugby when I see it. So far, it hasn't caused him or his team a problem being 6 foot 5. Honestly I think there is another reason behind why you don't like him featuring.

Nope. I think Muller calls most the lineouts to himself (and he is 6'7" - an inch taller than the rest of our locks who all seem to be 6'6" at a minimum - other than Toner) so the fact that it isn't a problem can be explained by that.

If anything, you'd think I'd want him to feature since his Irish connections are through my own county, Tipperary.

Tuohy has partnered Stevenson quite a bit this year don't forget. Tuohy is also very good in the line-outs, even if he is at a huge disadvantage being a few centimetres smaller than some other second rows..

Very, very simplistic view Sin. It seems like you've just looked at the stats for lineout takes and the heights without actually watching the Ulster lineout in action! Actually Muller does call a lot of ball to himself, I think he's taken more lineouts in the Heineken Cup this season than any other lock, but obviously he isn't stupid. We do a lot of dummy calls where the ball goes to Tuohy at the front with Muller as a lifter. Tuohy takes a good proportion of our ball. Tuohy has called the Ulster lineout as middle jumper before and done well in the Pro12.

Tuohy is grand in the lineouts. He's made incredible strides in that area of his game under the tutelage of Johann Muller.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - I will accept your theory that Tuohy is too small for international rugby when I see it. So far, it hasn't caused him or his team a problem being 6 foot 5. Honestly I think there is another reason behind why you don't like him featuring.

Nope. I think Muller calls most the lineouts to himself (and he is 6'7" - an inch taller than the rest of our locks who all seem to be 6'6" at a minimum - other than Toner) so the fact that it isn't a problem can be explained by that.

If anything, you'd think I'd want him to feature since his Irish connections are through my own county, Tipperary.

Tuohy has partnered Stevenson quite a bit this year don't forget. Tuohy is also very good in the line-outs, even if he is at a huge disadvantage being a few centimetres smaller than some other second rows..

Very, very simplistic view Sin. It seems like you've just looked at the stats for lineout takes and the heights without actually watching the Ulster lineout in action! Actually Muller does call a lot of ball to himself, I think he's taken more lineouts in the Heineken Cup this season than any other lock, but obviously he isn't stupid. We do a lot of dummy calls where the ball goes to Tuohy at the front with Muller as a lifter. Tuohy takes a good proportion of our ball. Tuohy has called the Ulster lineout as middle jumper before and done well in the Pro12.

Tuohy is grand in the lineouts. He's made incredible strides in that area of his game under the tutelage of Johann Muller.

What did you expect. SinE is living proof that stats without context are garbage.

McLaughlin needs to pack his bags - I would absolutely gosmacked if Ferris goes.

If he does go Kidney should be shot as it could end his career.
He is in no fit state to travel

Aye that isn't good for our chances but good for Ferris. McLaughlin has been in pretty good form overall.

Sin-
I could not be more relieved you are not Irish coach or have any say.

-Tuohy is playing great stuff and the fact that he is "too short" will not come into it and shouldn't. Ulster and Leinster got by with "short" locks. 6'5" isn't that short either! Heaslip and Wallace aren't taller than that and they are/were both very good in the air. AKA there is more than height to winning lineouts and Tuohy has done really well over the course of this season in the air, calling the lineouts a lot. Also he adds so much physicality and mobility to the tight 5, he boshed SOB. Modern locks need to be ball handlers as well as furniturer movers, they have to be able to get around the pitch and be confident with the ball and in attack. Cullen, DOC, MOD these kinda locks will not be used much again until (if) the rules are changed again back to defensive importance. Guys like Lawes, Gray and Ryan are the new breed of lock and will be successful.

-Murray has not done well since just before the RWC. Again due to the law changes in 2010 putting the emphasis on attack and not defence, scrumhalves NEEDto get the ball out ASAP and on a platter for their 10. Slow ball kills attacks. A scrumhalf generally makes less tackles than other players and generally they are covering tackles. It makes more sense for a scrumhalf to play as a sweeper as he covers any line breaks (not just a small area as if he were in the line) also covers chips and has a chance of getting out to the winger if he gets the ball. Scrumhalves HAVE to get the ball out to the flyhalf asap there is no way of saying it in simpler terms. It leaves less time for the defence to get organised. Less defenders coming around the corner. It gives the attackers a much better chance of making yards/getting through gaps. In order of importance
1) Decision making
2) Getting the ball out quickly
3) Accurate and quick passing
4) Box kicking
5 and 6) Defence and Threatening the fringe defence

Sin for all the articles and stats you seem to read you appear to have a very limited knowledge of rugby as if you don't watch it often. Have you ever played it? Have you ever coached? Do you watch games from France, England, the southern hem?

I personally believe you are quite biased to munster players and others from this thread have said they believe the same. Your views are strange to say it nicely and when you back them up your supporting arguments are stranger still. Do you believe everything you write on this forum? Do you write things sometimes just so you don't have to say "yeah sorry I was wrong there"?

Seems Fez is ruled out then? It's probably for the best in the long run. Hope he makes a full recovery for next season though.

McLaughlin will do a fine job and Ferris will benefit from the summer off. Win win.

What I do hope is that Ireland persist with SOB at 7. It would be very easy to throw him in as Ferris' replacement. saying that I would hope that Henry gets some gametime at seven.

I think the most likely thing is Peter O'Mahony plays 7. With O'Brien at 6. I might be inclined to swap their jerseys and roles but it's six of one... Chris Henry will most likely bench.

I think Henry will start at least one game if he's fit. Hope so anyway.

Yeah I'd say DK will go for that. Was kinda hoping we'd see Ferris-POM-SOB at some stage.

I really think SOB has done well at 7 over the last while and going up against McCaw would have taught him a lot.

Hope Fez is ok.

Isn't SOB likely to miss the tour as well? Heard he was getting an operation? In all honesty, I think McLaughlin should have been in the original squad regardless of injuries. He has been very good. Plays the Lydiate role perfectly, allowing SOB to roam.

For this tour, my backrow would be:

6) McLaughlin
7) O'Brien
8) O'Mahony

19) Heaslip

Of course Heaslip will start, but that is the backrow I think would be best for this tour. We will have much greater physicality than NZ in the backrow.

I see Ross went off - if that was a hamstring then he might struggle.

If I was Best I would be thinking this summer could be a good time for that minor neck operation he possibly needs.

Bowe, Ferris, Fitzpatrick out
POC doubtful
Ross ???

Good one to miss

geoff999rugby wrote:I see Ross went off - if that was a hamstring then he might struggle.

If I was Best I would be thinking this summer could be a good time for that minor neck operation he possibly needs.

Bowe, Ferris, Fitzpatrick out
POC doubtful
Ross ???

Good one to miss

Do you mean Fitzgerald?

I do - I am always doing that.

Forgot of course you can add Court to that list

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - I will accept your theory that Tuohy is too small for international rugby when I see it. So far, it hasn't caused him or his team a problem being 6 foot 5. Honestly I think there is another reason behind why you don't like him featuring.

Nope. I think Muller calls most the lineouts to himself (and he is 6'7" - an inch taller than the rest of our locks who all seem to be 6'6" at a minimum - other than Toner) so the fact that it isn't a problem can be explained by that.

If anything, you'd think I'd want him to feature since his Irish connections are through my own county, Tipperary.

Tuohy has partnered Stevenson quite a bit this year don't forget. Tuohy is also very good in the line-outs, even if he is at a huge disadvantage being a few centimetres smaller than some other second rows..

Very, very simplistic view Sin. It seems like you've just looked at the stats for lineout takes and the heights without actually watching the Ulster lineout in action! Actually Muller does call a lot of ball to himself, I think he's taken more lineouts in the Heineken Cup this season than any other lock, but obviously he isn't stupid. We do a lot of dummy calls where the ball goes to Tuohy at the front with Muller as a lifter. Tuohy takes a good proportion of our ball. Tuohy has called the Ulster lineout as middle jumper before and done well in the Pro12.

Tuohy is grand in the lineouts. He's made incredible strides in that area of his game under the tutelage of Johann Muller.

So the lineout takes match the Stats then. Muller calls a lot of ball on himself! I wonder why. What were Ulster doing with all the lineouts that they were winning. Were they scoring any tries from them? How were Ulster in defensive lineouts. Was Tuohy winning any ball against the likes of Rickie Gray or Devon Toner? It shouldn't be ignored that that Muller is 5'7" so he helps the situation. POC is 6'6".

And the Pro 12 is not international standard. Mick O'Driscoll always did well in the Pro 12, yet most don't think he is an international standard lock.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Aye that isn't good for our chances but good for Ferris. McLaughlin has been in pretty good form overall.

Sin-
I could not be more relieved you are not Irish coach or have any say.

-Tuohy is playing great stuff and the fact that he is "too short" will not come into it and shouldn't. Ulster and Leinster got by with "short" locks. 6'5" isn't that short either! Heaslip and Wallace aren't taller than that and they are/were both very good in the air. AKA there is more than height to winning lineouts and Tuohy has done really well over the course of this season in the air, calling the lineouts a lot. Also he adds so much physicality and mobility to the tight 5, he boshed SOB. Modern locks need to be ball handlers as well as furniturer movers, they have to be able to get around the pitch and be confident with the ball and in attack. Cullen, DOC, MOD these kinda locks will not be used much again until (if) the rules are changed again back to defensive importance. Guys like Lawes, Gray and Ryan are the new breed of lock and will be successful.

-Murray has not done well since just before the RWC. Again due to the law changes in 2010 putting the emphasis on attack and not defence, scrumhalves NEEDto get the ball out ASAP and on a platter for their 10. Slow ball kills attacks. A scrumhalf generally makes less tackles than other players and generally they are covering tackles. It makes more sense for a scrumhalf to play as a sweeper as he covers any line breaks (not just a small area as if he were in the line) also covers chips and has a chance of getting out to the winger if he gets the ball. Scrumhalves HAVE to get the ball out to the flyhalf asap there is no way of saying it in simpler terms. It leaves less time for the defence to get organised. Less defenders coming around the corner. It gives the attackers a much better chance of making yards/getting through gaps. In order of importance
1) Decision making
2) Getting the ball out quickly
3) Accurate and quick passing
4) Box kicking
5 and 6) Defence and Threatening the fringe defence

Sin for all the articles and stats you seem to read you appear to have a very limited knowledge of rugby as if you don't watch it often. Have you ever played it? Have you ever coached? Do you watch games from France, England, the southern hem?

I personally believe you are quite biased to munster players and others from this thread have said they believe the same. Your views are strange to say it nicely and when you back them up your supporting arguments are stranger still. Do you believe everything you write on this forum? Do you write things sometimes just so you don't have to say "yeah sorry I was wrong there"?

Sorry for getting personal, but I can't imagine a 23 year old having played (or watched) a great deal of rugby.

After the crap you came out about Denis Leamy in previous threads, I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down.

My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

Sin é wrote:Sorry for getting personal, but I can't imagine a 23 year old having played (or watched) a great deal of rugby.

After the crap you came out about Denis Leamy in previous threads, I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down.

I doubt my view carries much weight either but I think Pete is an exceptionally knowledgeable poster, one of the best on here. Very even handed and open minded when it comes to Irish threads too .

Rodders I doubt any of our views carry much weight

red_stag wrote:Rodders I doubt any of our views carry much weight

Come on Staggy, Sin é really respects my opinions

Sin é wrote:
My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

My general view on Tuohy is that he is the form lock in the country this season behind O'Connell and Ryan and he is a much better lineout forward than O'Callaghan, as well as a far better ball carrier than any other lock.

Provided you have at least 3, ideally 4 lineout jumpers it doesn't matter how tall your locks are. You'd get away with a 6'4 lock if they are athletic enough, which Tuohy certainly is.

Parisse and Harinordique are two of the best lineout players in the world and are 6'4 and 6'3 respectively.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Aye that isn't good for our chances but good for Ferris. McLaughlin has been in pretty good form overall.

Sin-
I could not be more relieved you are not Irish coach or have any say.

-Tuohy is playing great stuff and the fact that he is "too short" will not come into it and shouldn't. Ulster and Leinster got by with "short" locks. 6'5" isn't that short either! Heaslip and Wallace aren't taller than that and they are/were both very good in the air. AKA there is more than height to winning lineouts and Tuohy has done really well over the course of this season in the air, calling the lineouts a lot. Also he adds so much physicality and mobility to the tight 5, he boshed SOB. Modern locks need to be ball handlers as well as furniturer movers, they have to be able to get around the pitch and be confident with the ball and in attack. Cullen, DOC, MOD these kinda locks will not be used much again until (if) the rules are changed again back to defensive importance. Guys like Lawes, Gray and Ryan are the new breed of lock and will be successful.

-Murray has not done well since just before the RWC. Again due to the law changes in 2010 putting the emphasis on attack and not defence, scrumhalves NEEDto get the ball out ASAP and on a platter for their 10. Slow ball kills attacks. A scrumhalf generally makes less tackles than other players and generally they are covering tackles. It makes more sense for a scrumhalf to play as a sweeper as he covers any line breaks (not just a small area as if he were in the line) also covers chips and has a chance of getting out to the winger if he gets the ball. Scrumhalves HAVE to get the ball out to the flyhalf asap there is no way of saying it in simpler terms. It leaves less time for the defence to get organised. Less defenders coming around the corner. It gives the attackers a much better chance of making yards/getting through gaps. In order of importance
1) Decision making
2) Getting the ball out quickly
3) Accurate and quick passing
4) Box kicking
5 and 6) Defence and Threatening the fringe defence

Sin for all the articles and stats you seem to read you appear to have a very limited knowledge of rugby as if you don't watch it often. Have you ever played it? Have you ever coached? Do you watch games from France, England, the southern hem?

I personally believe you are quite biased to munster players and others from this thread have said they believe the same. Your views are strange to say it nicely and when you back them up your supporting arguments are stranger still. Do you believe everything you write on this forum? Do you write things sometimes just so you don't have to say "yeah sorry I was wrong there"?

Sorry for getting personal, but I can't imagine a 23 year old having played (or watched) a great deal of rugby.

After the crap you came out about Denis Leamy in previous threads, I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down.

My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

[/quote]

He has 1 cap in which he scored a try against the All Blacks in New Zealand with his first touch of the ball! Give the guy a chance. He has been the form lock as far as I am concerned in Ireland this year behind POC and Ryan and even then POC is not the kind of modern lock we need (read article in the Independent on that one. http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/Rabodirect-PRO12/brendan-fanning-driven-by-the-fear-of-not-winning-3119771.html

Tuohy could be such a huge assit for us! And like Rodders has said look at Parise and Harinodquoy. They are both brilliant. McLaughlin is great at stealing lineouts and how tall is he. Why is DOC on the team as a second row? Not to win lineouts for sure anyways. PS: Devin Toner had an unbelievable game yesterday, not just lineout takes but restarts, carrying and a few huge tackles.

Do you have anything to say about my summary of Murray?

I don't know how old you are Sin but from your posts I've played and watched a lot more rugby than you have.

Ps: Cheers Rodders right back at ya.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

My general view on Tuohy is that he is the form lock in the country this season behind O'Connell and Ryan and he is a much better lineout forward than O'Callaghan, as well as a far better ball carrier than any other lock.

Provided you have at least 3, ideally 4 lineout jumpers it doesn't matter how tall your locks are. You'd get away with a 6'4 lock if they are athletic enough, which Tuohy certainly is.

Parisse and Harinordique are two of the best lineout players in the world and are 6'4 and 6'3 respectively.

Tuohy is a very good ball carrier, but at international level the problem is that we have maybe too many ball carriers.

Good and all as Harinordoquy is in the lineout, he has NEVER started a game for France as a lock (and I don't think Parisse has for Italy either).

Why do locks need to be tall though?
Lending weight and strength to the scrum and for some of them (not all) they need to be able to win lineout ball which Rodders has just proved isn't all down to height. They don't need to be locks to be great lineout operators.

EVERYONE on the team should be able to carry ball effectively and play attacking around the park rugby between forwards and backs. All of our players can do this other than Ross (although did you see his flick up to Strauss in the HCup final) and DOC. POC is guilty of it too at times. Again read the Fanning article.

agreed rodders. and if your bringing and old fella you might as well bring leo.

poc and ryan are first choice for me with tuohy,toner nipping at their heels on the basis of performances over the whole season. leo is ahead of donners

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Why do locks need to be tall though?
Lending weight and strength to the scrum and for some of them (not all) they need to be able to win lineout ball which Rodders has just proved isn't all down to height. They don't need to be locks to be great lineout operators.

EVERYONE on the team should be able to carry ball effectively and play attacking around the park rugby between forwards and backs. All of our players can do this other than Ross (although did you see his flick up to Strauss in the HCup final) and DOC. POC is guilty of it too at times. Again read the Fanning article.

You are really having a laugh now!

Sin there is no such thing as having too many ball carriers. the more you have the harder you are to defend against. We struggled against Wales and England recently because we didn't have enought effective carriers. Tuohy is much more than a carrier.

Agree Dave Cullen is worth a shout, hes been in fine form and is a clever and underrated player.

Is POC definitely out? I thought he was?

Toner had a good game at the weekend.

Having Tuohy will also strengthen the scrum which is the reason Schmidt signed Thorn. Basically there are 2 LH locks: Ryan and Toner, 2 TH locks Tuohy and DOC and Cullen and POC who at a push can play either but prefer the LH side of the scrum.

Its about getting the right combination.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Aye that isn't good for our chances but good for Ferris. McLaughlin has been in pretty good form overall.

Sin-
I could not be more relieved you are not Irish coach or have any say.

-Tuohy is playing great stuff and the fact that he is "too short" will not come into it and shouldn't. Ulster and Leinster got by with "short" locks. 6'5" isn't that short either! Heaslip and Wallace aren't taller than that and they are/were both very good in the air. AKA there is more than height to winning lineouts and Tuohy has done really well over the course of this season in the air, calling the lineouts a lot. Also he adds so much physicality and mobility to the tight 5, he boshed SOB. Modern locks need to be ball handlers as well as furniturer movers, they have to be able to get around the pitch and be confident with the ball and in attack. Cullen, DOC, MOD these kinda locks will not be used much again until (if) the rules are changed again back to defensive importance. Guys like Lawes, Gray and Ryan are the new breed of lock and will be successful.

-Murray has not done well since just before the RWC. Again due to the law changes in 2010 putting the emphasis on attack and not defence, scrumhalves NEEDto get the ball out ASAP and on a platter for their 10. Slow ball kills attacks. A scrumhalf generally makes less tackles than other players and generally they are covering tackles. It makes more sense for a scrumhalf to play as a sweeper as he covers any line breaks (not just a small area as if he were in the line) also covers chips and has a chance of getting out to the winger if he gets the ball. Scrumhalves HAVE to get the ball out to the flyhalf asap there is no way of saying it in simpler terms. It leaves less time for the defence to get organised. Less defenders coming around the corner. It gives the attackers a much better chance of making yards/getting through gaps. In order of importance
1) Decision making
2) Getting the ball out quickly
3) Accurate and quick passing
4) Box kicking
5 and 6) Defence and Threatening the fringe defence

Sin for all the articles and stats you seem to read you appear to have a very limited knowledge of rugby as if you don't watch it often. Have you ever played it? Have you ever coached? Do you watch games from France, England, the southern hem?

I personally believe you are quite biased to munster players and others from this thread have said they believe the same. Your views are strange to say it nicely and when you back them up your supporting arguments are stranger still. Do you believe everything you write on this forum? Do you write things sometimes just so you don't have to say "yeah sorry I was wrong there"?

Sorry for getting personal, but I can't imagine a 23 year old having played (or watched) a great deal of rugby.

After the crap you came out about Denis Leamy in previous threads, I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down.

My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

Made me chuckle, that did

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
My general opinion on Tuohy is that he is a very good lock at club level, but he will never be a top international lock. If he was paired with Devon Toner and D Ryan starting at blindside to give an extra option in the lineout, he might be a backup option.

My general view on Tuohy is that he is the form lock in the country this season behind O'Connell and Ryan and he is a much better lineout forward than O'Callaghan, as well as a far better ball carrier than any other lock.

Provided you have at least 3, ideally 4 lineout jumpers it doesn't matter how tall your locks are. You'd get away with a 6'4 lock if they are athletic enough, which Tuohy certainly is.

Parisse and Harinordique are two of the best lineout players in the world and are 6'4 and 6'3 respectively.

Tuohy is a very good ball carrier, but at international level the problem is that we have maybe too many ball carriers.

Good and all as Harinordoquy is in the lineout, he has NEVER started a game for France as a lock (and I don't think Parisse has for Italy either).

Yeah and maybe we should try and cut down the number of good tacklers on the team as well.

And I don't have time to go into what you say about Murray (except that one of the best scrumhalfs (Pienaar) is the playmaker, not the flyhalf.

Perhaps you might explain to me why away from home Schmidt seems to prefer Boss (when fit) to Reddan for some reason.

"I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down."

Wow.

My question is Sin, do you not see how hypocritical your above statement is?

Sin é wrote:And I don't have time to go into what you say about Murray (except that one of the best scrumhalfs (Pienaar) is the playmaker, not the flyhalf.

Perhaps you might explain to me why away from home Schmidt seems to prefer Boss (when fit) to Reddan for some reason.

Perhaps you should stick to the topic at hand, which is Dan Touhy and the second row selection?

You can have too many ball carriers - wow !!

Tuohy should be picked above DOC and Cullen no question.
He is in form and an inch here or there (and that is all it is) is not crucial it is about timing and accuracy in the lineout - Tuohy has that.

POC, Ryan, Tuohy, DOC/Cullen/Toner

If no POC then Ryan, Touhy, Toner, DOC/Cullen

This has turned into comedy gold

Rory_Gallagher wrote:My question is Sin, do you not see how hypocritical your above statement is?

Rory, I can generally back-up my statements with facts (i.e., Dave was having a go at Leamy for poor discipline, when in fact he has a far better disciplinary record than Heaslip & SOB). Even when I went through the last 5 years of HC games and proved his discipline wasn't half as bad as Dave wouldn't accept it.

Boss does not equal Murray Sin.

The fact that Murray and Boss are both physical doesn't mean it is a Holly Wilaboobie for tat selection. Boss ties in defenders and releases other guys into the space left by those defenders. Murray has been seen to just tie in defenders. You don't want your scrumhalf pick and going into two props no matter how physical he is because then you could have your hooker playing scrumhalf!

Yeah why do you need a 6'8" lock when it is proven that guys like Parise and McLaughlin who are much shorter are very good lineout operators and guys like Tuohy and Thorn are absolute animals around the park?
Why do locks have to be tall?

So you are never wrong?

geoff998rugby wrote:You can have too many ball carriers - wow !!

Yep, if thats all they are good at. You need lads hitting the rucks, stealing ball for them to carry, and lads to make tackles as well.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:You can have too many ball carriers - wow !!

Yep, if thats all they are good at. You need lads hitting the rucks, stealing ball for them to carry, and lads to make tackles as well.

Which of those things can't Tuohy do?

Anyone know when the team for the BaaBaa's game is announced?

Too many ball carriers

I have to say that is priceless. Sin, you need to stop now. You are losing credibility at a rate of knots

i thought toner was immense yesterday. a great modern 2nd row performance. all over the place, skilful, nice offloads, tackled well and made yards with the ball in hand. he has made serious progress this year

ross has not been bad with the ball in hand this year, serious improvement. he is no afoa but he is improving. will be a big loss.

Yeah I'm with you re: Toner.

I thought he was unreal yesterday. One of our best performers and easily better than Leo. Hope he keeps improving at the rate he is.

Afoa is a freak of a tighthead, his feet, awareness, scrummaging, tackling are just soooooo good.

Does anyone remember the HCup final when Reddan box kicked it and McFadden knocked it back and Darcy and Reddan went the length of the pitch and nearly scored in the end? When McFadden knocked that back Ross picked it off his toes and while falling offloaded to Strauss coming on at pace. Ross is by no means a great played but that was pretty slick!

Agree re Toner.

On that basis, if POC s not fit both he and Tuohy should tour.

I'd agree with that Geoff.

Anyone know how POC is doing and when the team is announced for tomorrow night? Is it on RTE or TG4?

Sin é wrote:So the lineout takes match the Stats then. Muller calls a lot of ball on himself! I wonder why. What were Ulster doing with all the lineouts that they were winning. Were they scoring any tries from them? How were Ulster in defensive lineouts. Was Tuohy winning any ball against the likes of Rickie Gray or Devon Toner? It shouldn't be ignored that that Muller is 5'7" so he helps the situation. POC is 6'6".

And the Pro 12 is not international standard. Mick O'Driscoll always did well in the Pro 12, yet most don't think he is an international standard lock.

My point is that Tuohy is used as an option quite often on Ulsters put-in and he consistently delivers clean, quick ball. If you look at the games against Leicester, Muller was marked heavily and he called a lot of lineouts to Tuohy and Wannenburg with great success. Our lineout is far from a one-man show. If you look at Ulster in defensive lineout, they often don't contest the ball, they look to defend the rolling maul or blitz the scrum-half.

Tuohy is not weak in the lineout, he's technically quite good. Although he would necessarily be a front jumper, and a support act to our main lineout specialist, he's good enough in the lineouts that it's not a weakness that undermines the main strengths of his game.

is the match on tv

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:So the lineout takes match the Stats then. Muller calls a lot of ball on himself! I wonder why. What were Ulster doing with all the lineouts that they were winning. Were they scoring any tries from them? How were Ulster in defensive lineouts. Was Tuohy winning any ball against the likes of Rickie Gray or Devon Toner? It shouldn't be ignored that that Muller is 5'7" so he helps the situation. POC is 6'6".

And the Pro 12 is not international standard. Mick O'Driscoll always did well in the Pro 12, yet most don't think he is an international standard lock.

My point is that Tuohy is used as an option quite often on Ulsters put-in and he consistently delivers clean, quick ball. If you look at the games against Leicester, Muller was marked heavily and he called a lot of lineouts to Tuohy and Wannenburg with great success. Our lineout is far from a one-man show. If you look at Ulster in defensive lineout, they often don't contest the ball, they look to defend the rolling maul or blitz the scrum-half.

Tuohy is not weak in the lineout, he's technically quite good. Although he would necessarily be a front jumper, and a support act to our main lineout specialist, he's good enough in the lineouts that it's not a weakness that undermines the main strengths of his game.

A nice contrast in this exchange between someone who reads stats and media reports and someone who actually watches the players in question and knows what they are talking about......