Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

Ah...back to the peace and harmny of an International thread, where I'm amongst my own.................................

WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Muller is only 5'7"??!!!!!!!!!! He must wear a stacked deck of cards in each boot, the bloody cheat!

Ireland team for the BaaBaa's has been announced folks. I've set up a separate thread for it here.

Looks exciting.

Looks exciting indeed but not flipping coverage!!!!

Very glad Tuohy and Ryan are put together that is positive from Kidney.

i heard Tuohys arms are 2 inches longer than POCs, but he also has a longer neck so his shoulders are an inch further down.

Oh wait you don't head the ball from a lineout?

Utter silliness the locks height thing when the guy is 1 inch shorter than POC

It's nonsensical...... sure if Tuohy wore thicker socks he'd be the same height as the others

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I don't rate your opinion either which to me seems like you make up your mind and even when you are proved wrong, you won't back down."

Wow.

One instance where I was actually proved wrong please

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah I'm with you re: Toner.

I thought he was unreal yesterday. One of our best performers and easily better than Leo. Hope he keeps improving at the rate he is.

His scrummaging isn't up to scratch (and Cullen isn't too hot either). I suppose that's why Schmidt had to get Brad Thorn in.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Utter silliness the locks height thing when the guy is 1 inch shorter than POC

Name me one top international lock (for a top 8 country) under 32 years of age who is 6'5" and under and is still playing international rugby.

Then list who you think are the up and coming top locks and what height they are.

rodders wrote:It's nonsensical...... sure if Tuohy wore thicker socks he'd be the same height as the others

He'd need to be wearing platforms to get anywhere near Bakkies Botha. He'd need a ladder to get near Richie Grey.

Ulster had the best lineout in the HEC this season so I think Tuohy would do ok Sin .

rodders wrote:Ulster had the best lineout in the HEC this season so I think Tuohy would do ok Sin .

And if anyone saw the Stormers lineout at the weekend they would see that height isn't the most important thing for a lineout.

What you do Sin e when you are wrong is you move the debate off at a tangent - fair play to you you are very good at it

You want an example of where you were wrong here is a sampler.
You stated Kidney/IRFU did not insist on Court playing TH at Connacht.
You were wrong they did.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It's nonsensical...... sure if Tuohy wore thicker socks he'd be the same height as the others

He'd need to be wearing platforms to get anywhere near Bakkies Botha. He'd need a ladder to get near Richie Grey.

Or he'd need a combination of timing, athleticism, judgement and good lifters to get him in the air at the right time; only then does height become a factor. You've got this idea of being good in the lineout = height. Height is just one factor; there are myriad others at play in the lineout. You need to try and understand; one advantage in the lineout is height, but if you are off the ground earlier or get in front of your man that's an even bigger advantage.

Having an extra few inches is great for a lock, it can give him the edge, but it's not what makes a great lineout forward. One of the very best lineout forwards in Europe right now is Imanol Harinordoquy, who is under 6'4. Why is he so handy? He has amazing judgement and athleticism, and in the air he's superb at winning and presenting the ball. He is brilliant at reading where the ball is going to, he is brilliant at winning it and getting it cleanly and quickly to the receiver.

What I'm trying to tell you is Dan Tuohy is a pretty good lineout forward- not outstanding, but decent. The lineout is not going to be weakened by his inclusion although we have better options there- he would be in the team for his other attributes which our other locks don't possess.

Notch give it up, its nothing to do with Tuohys height, Sin doesn't want Tuohy in there because it will be at O'Callaghans expense. He'll keep shifting the goalposts no matter what anyone says.....

The Irish line out has been noticeably poorer without John Hayes lifting the first jumper. But then again according to some of this thread its all about height, not timing or a good hooker to throw in or any of that malarky.

Maybe tuohy isn't good enough. I don't think he can improve much on where he is now and in the HC final was fairly anonymous , except for one occasion. Decent squad player though

We should give him a chance. The incumbent is in anonymous form anyway. For me Donnacha Ryan and O'Connell are still the two best locks in the country but more competition/cover is needed.

Not sure what final you were watching.. plus he did score a try.

I don't care who you bring. Just bring ROG with you and put him in the starting lineup.

Seriously, I think you will target the wingers who aren't renowned for their aerial skills now that Jane and Kahui are out. Kaino's absence leaves a big hole as does Brad Thorn's. Just hope that Kidney varies things up on attack as an overemphasis on aerial bombs will do no favours. Especially if Sexton (or ROG ) is under pressure. But if you can get front foot ball, a nice cross kick to Bowe or Kearney running on the angle would be a tactic worth trying.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I don't care who you bring. Just bring ROG with you and put him in the starting lineup.

Seriously, I think you will target the wingers who aren't renowned for their aerial skills now that Jane and Kahui are out. Kaino's absence leaves a big hole as does Brad Thorn's. Just hope that Kidney varies things up on attack as an overemphasis on aerial bombs will do no favours. Especially if Sexton (or ROG ) is under pressure. But if you can get front foot ball, a nice cross kick to Bowe or Kearney running on the angle would be a tactic worth trying.

If only...

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:It's nonsensical...... sure if Tuohy wore thicker socks he'd be the same height as the others

He'd need to be wearing platforms to get anywhere near Bakkies Botha. He'd need a ladder to get near Richie Grey.

Or he'd need a combination of timing, athleticism, judgement and good lifters to get him in the air at the right time; only then does height become a factor. You've got this idea of being good in the lineout = height. Height is just one factor; there are myriad others at play in the lineout. You need to try and understand; one advantage in the lineout is height, but if you are off the ground earlier or get in front of your man that's an even bigger advantage.

Having an extra few inches is great for a lock, it can give him the edge, but it's not what makes a great lineout forward. One of the very best lineout forwards in Europe right now is Imanol Harinordoquy, who is under 6'4. Why is he so handy? He has amazing judgement and athleticism, and in the air he's superb at winning and presenting the ball. He is brilliant at reading where the ball is going to, he is brilliant at winning it and getting it cleanly and quickly to the receiver.

What I'm trying to tell you is Dan Tuohy is a pretty good lineout forward- not outstanding, but decent. The lineout is not going to be weakened by his inclusion although we have better options there- he would be in the team for his other attributes which our other locks don't possess.

Could someone please mention one top international lock who is 6'5" or under. Harinordoguy is not a lock. Leinster started McLaughlin to compensate for Thorn's lack of ability in the lineout - which is Thorn's one weakness in his game.

As for factor that influence the lineout - opposition lineout is also a factor that can influence a lineout. You know for example the way Matfield rates POC (who used to be able to steal a few when Hayes was lifting him).

Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Also, Thorn is 37 years old, a bigger factor as to why he wouldn't be as good a jumper than his height.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

Also Sin, if you read what Crusaders and NZ fans have been saying about Thorn, you will see that he is sorely missed. They don't seem to mind that he is apparently lacking in the line-out jumping department. They miss his robustness around the park.

Someone is wrong on the internet! I'm so frustrated right now

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

Height has very little to do with lineout jumping. Harinordoquy is one of the best lineout forwards in the world, he is about 6'3. POM is the exact same height and he is superb in the lineout, as is Julien Bonnaire. They are light and quick which makes them so good, but the key to a good lineout is organisation. On Saturday the Stormers despite having Bekker at 6'11 and Etzebeth at 6'8 in the second row, and Elstadt at 6'6 in the back row yet they couldn't win a ball to save their lives at the weekend because they couldn't get the calls right.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also Sin, if you read what Crusaders and NZ fans have been saying about Thorn, you will see that he is sorely missed. They don't seem to mind that he is apparently lacking in the line-out jumping department. They miss his robustness around the park.

Is a bit about balance the second row and back row. All blacks play with extra lineout option in 8 and take Thorn to push the scrum up on the side and clean the rucks like extra blindside.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

I wouldn't mention Thorn & Tuohy in the same sentence to be honest. NZ were never rated for their lineout. SA was rated (and Matfield (someone who would have played NZ regularly) rated POC as the best he has come up against. Incidentally, POC named Pelous as his most difficult opponent and not No. 8 Hardinquoy.

Leinster selected Thorn to start ahead of Toner because Toner & Cullen are poorish scrummagers. Thorn is superb. They then had to drop Jennings to accommodate McLaughlin as another jumper (along with Heislip!). McLauglin would have been on the bench if 6'7" Nathan Hines was still with Leinster because he can do all the things that Thorn does as well as being able to jump for an attacking lineout.

By the way, Ulster's scrum got pushed around a bit by Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. That was down to Thorn's presence. Schmidt made a mistake not starting Thorn against a fairly good scrummaging side like the Os in the Rabo final.

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

Height has very little to do with lineout jumping. Harinordoquy is one of the best lineout forwards in the world, he is about 6'3. POM is the exact same height and he is superb in the lineout, as is Julien Bonnaire. They are light and quick which makes them so good, but the key to a good lineout is organisation. On Saturday the Stormers despite having Bekker at 6'11 and Etzebeth at 6'8 in the second row, and Elstadt at 6'6 in the back row yet they couldn't win a ball to save their lives at the weekend because they couldn't get the calls right.

Just because you've got the height, doesn't mean you are going to make it as an international lock. Look at Devin Toner. And Harinordoquy is not a lock. Do you come from the school of thought that Ferris should be moved to the 2nd row?

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also Sin, if you read what Crusaders and NZ fans have been saying about Thorn, you will see that he is sorely missed. They don't seem to mind that he is apparently lacking in the line-out jumping department. They miss his robustness around the park.

Is a bit about balance the second row and back row. All blacks play with extra lineout option in 8 and take Thorn to push the scrum up on the side and clean the rucks like extra blindside.

Thank you for explaining what Thorn does. Thorn is brilliant defender as well with a brilliant tackle technique. Saved Leinster's asses a few times.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

I wouldn't mention Thorn & Tuohy in the same sentence to be honest. NZ were never rated for their lineout. SA was rated (and Matfield (someone who would have played NZ regularly) rated POC as the best he has come up against. Incidentally, POC named Pelous as his most difficult opponent and not No. 8 Hardinquoy.

Leinster selected Thorn to start ahead of Toner because Toner & Cullen are poorish scrummagers. Thorn is superb. They then had to drop Jennings to accommodate McLaughlin as another jumper (along with Heislip!). McLauglin would have been on the bench if 6'7" Nathan Hines was still with Leinster because he can do all the things that Thorn does as well as being able to jump for an attacking lineout.

By the way, Ulster's scrum got pushed around a bit by Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. That was down to Thorn's presence. Schmidt made a mistake not starting Thorn against a fairly good scrummaging side like the Os in the Rabo final.

Seriously, you are describing Hines as good in the lineout? He is competent and no more. Any team he has played for have used him sparingly in the lineout.
The New Zealand lineout may never have been as good as SA's but they have always been extremely good on their own ball. Thorn would not have made the All Blacks team if it meant weakening another part of their team to accommodate him.
Pelous also played at 8 and flanker but when Poc was responding to that question it was about full game not just the lineout.
Why do you refuse to spell player's names correctly.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

Height has very little to do with lineout jumping. Harinordoquy is one of the best lineout forwards in the world, he is about 6'3. POM is the exact same height and he is superb in the lineout, as is Julien Bonnaire. They are light and quick which makes them so good, but the key to a good lineout is organisation. On Saturday the Stormers despite having Bekker at 6'11 and Etzebeth at 6'8 in the second row, and Elstadt at 6'6 in the back row yet they couldn't win a ball to save their lives at the weekend because they couldn't get the calls right.

Just because you've got the height, doesn't mean you are going to make it as an international lock. Look at Devin Toner. And Harinordoquy is not a lock. Do you come from the school of thought that Ferris should be moved to the 2nd row?

Where do I mention anything about locks, I'm talking about lineout jumping.

DOD wrote:Maybe tuohy isn't good enough. I don't think he can improve much on where he is now and in the HC final was fairly anonymous , except for one occasion. Decent squad player though

Eh?? He was one of the best players on the pitch in the HEC final? Scored a try and ran over the top of Sean O'Brien at one point. Won his lineouts and did his bread and butter 2nd row work.

Give it up lads, DOC has had his day, there's at least 5 better locks in the country now and Tuohy is certainly one of them.

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't mention Thorn & Tuohy in the same sentence to be honest. NZ were never rated for their lineout. SA was rated (and Matfield (someone who would have played NZ regularly) rated POC as the best he has come up against. Incidentally, POC named Pelous as his most difficult opponent and not No. 8 Hardinquoy.

Leinster selected Thorn to start ahead of Toner because Toner & Cullen are poorish scrummagers. Thorn is superb. They then had to drop Jennings to accommodate McLaughlin as another jumper (along with Heislip!). McLauglin would have been on the bench if 6'7" Nathan Hines was still with Leinster because he can do all the things that Thorn does as well as being able to jump for an attacking lineout.

By the way, Ulster's scrum got pushed around a bit by Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. That was down to Thorn's presence. Schmidt made a mistake not starting Thorn against a fairly good scrummaging side like the Os in the Rabo final.

It's frustrating for me that you tell me these things as if I don't know them, but we're making progress. I'm well familiar with why Thorn is such a good player.

You now admit that a player may compensate for supposed weaknesses elsewhere on the park. You're now a mere skip and a jump away from understanding the logic behind championing Tuohy. And I'm not going to go to the other extreme and say Tuohy is world class. He's just a good player, probably the third best lock we have in Ireland and it's time to build for the future instead of waiting for DOC to find an indian summer that doesn't seem to be coming... what I'm saying he offers a skill set that none of our other locks do, offers a bit more dynamism and your logic behind dismissing him is, er, tenuous at best. And that's being kind.

Agree with the above two posts - Tuohy is the way forward at the minute, O'Callaghan hasn't done anything in a long time, Tuohy has had a tremendous season, ask some of the Tigers fans on here about his performance in our 35 point win against them.

Brilliant ball carrier and tackler as well as solid in the lineout.

Notch wrote:We should give him a chance. The incumbent is in anonymous form anyway. For me Donnacha Ryan and O'Connell are still the two best locks in the country but more competition/cover is needed.

No disagreement on that. but I don't think he is good enough to be honest.

Thorn is a great player. As long as I can remember (say about 30 years) NZ have had shorter locks overall and have always had to work hard to get their lineout really working. They have achieved this but I have never thought of our lineout as a strength not like our scrum or back play.

I am not sure about Dan Tuohy to be honest. He has deserved his shot without a doubt but there is something about him that i just dont see him as being a top quality international. I hope to hell that i am wrong but i just dont see it in him.

For me he will always be a top class club/province player but i honestly feel he will struggle at International level.

This thread illustrates what is wrong with Irish international rugby in respect to selection.

Cullen and DOC are past their best. They have both been fine servants of Irish rugby and deserve praise. However there comes a time when players move over so you can look at the up and coming players to see what they can do.

In truth we only have 2 players at the level required - POC and Ryan and one of them is a big doubt.
We have two young players who have been very good for their provinces this year - Tuohy and Toner.

In any other country they would be given a chance to find out if they can sink or swim but not here. The voices of caution say maybe we should hang on with DOC and Cullen or maybe given other over 30's - McCarthy or Hayes a chance. If we dont give the likes of Tuohy or Toner a chance we will fall off a cliff in a couple of years time as Ryan will be the only one able to play lock at International level.

We need to wise up. Do we know if Toner or Tuohy arer good enough - NO. BUT the only way we will find out is by giving them a chance

We are doing the same at TH - crossing everything and praying Ross can match Hayes remarkable fitness record - I dont think he can and is showing worrying signs of crumbling under pressure.

In other news Boss is out - so will it be TOL who hasn't cut it or Marshall who is an unknown. Will the voices of caution or the voices of opportunity call.
I know where my money is

Based on what Billy? Hes only had one cap and scored against the AB's?

How can you write a player off until he's given a chance?

Who else is their that is better in that position? DOC is 33 and really has been on the slide since 2008.

POC and Ryan are the 1st choice pairing but POC is becoming increasingly injury prone and Ryan and Toner can't play together because they both lack grunt in the tight. Even with POC there we struggle for carriers.

For me having Tuohy in the match day 22 is a no brainer. He's had a fantastic season and was deservedly named in the Rabo dream team.

Going into the next RWC I see Tuohy and Ryan as the starting locks with Toner on the bench. The sooner we give these guys gametime the better.

geoff998rugby wrote:
In other news Boss is out - so will it be TOL who hasn't cut it or Marshall who is an unknown. Will the voices of caution or the voices of opportunity call.
I know where my money is

I would take both and leave out Murray who's had a shocking season and needs to go an refind his confidence and game reading. NZ isn't the place for a struggling young player.

Massive blow that Boss is out.

Rather than everyone trying to explain why Dan Tuohy should start maybe SinE would like to explain why he thinks O'Callaghan should start?

I think Dan Tuohy should be on the bench Mick. O'Connell and Ryan would be my starters if fit. I just don't think DOC should tour at Tuohys expense because Tuohy is a better player.

I'm keen to see Toner get a shot too.

rodders wrote:I think Dan Tuohy should be on the bench Mick. O'Connell and Ryan would be my starters if fit. I just don't think DOC should tour at Tuohys expense because Tuohy is a better player.

I'm keen to see Toner get a shot too.

If POC is fit then it's a no brainer. POC and Ryan start, Tuohy on the bench, if POC is injured, start Tuohy and put Toner on the bench.

Yup thats what I'd like to see as well Mick. It's the way forward.

It's not giving these guys a leg up either, they are the best locks we have.

Mickado wrote:

rodders wrote:I think Dan Tuohy should be on the bench Mick. O'Connell and Ryan would be my starters if fit. I just don't think DOC should tour at Tuohys expense because Tuohy is a better player.

I'm keen to see Toner get a shot too.

If POC is fit then it's a no brainer. POC and Ryan start, Tuohy on the bench, if POC is injured, start Tuohy and put Toner on the bench.

Clearly. But DOC is one of Monsignor egghead's favorites, so it will be DOC and Ryan....

Got to keep that quota up ! (Sound familiar?)

.........and ticking......

http://www.kidneyclock.net/

Sin when you talk about height are you reffering to a lock needing to be 6'6" and over to be an international lock or are you talking about an international lineout expert needing to be 6'6" or over?

Either way we have worked out that there are smaller guys like Parise, Harinordquoy, McLaughlin who are better in the lineout than guys like Thorn and Tuohy so that in essence proves that height in the lineout is not the be all and end all. To reject this statement is laughable.

Now on to the second part why would an international lock need to be 6'6" as you have said a lock smaller than this is not big enough. Why? Why does a lock need to be tall? Is it a question of bulk? Look at guys like Hines and Thorn who have more bulk than guys like Lawes or Charteris. We have worked out it isn't for their skills in the lineout.

So riddle me this: why is >6'6" too small for an international lock?

Sad to hear Boss is out he has been playing well all season. Hopefully Marshall will be given the call up, we can but hope. He'd be exciting to have on the bench eh?

[quote="valjester"]

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see what you just said? McLaughlin, a player that is smaller than Brad Thorn, was selected by Leinster to compensate for Thorn's weakness in the lineout. He is seen as a very good line-out operator despite playing in the backrow and despite being 6 foot 4.

Yes, this. If anything amused me it's that Sin actually mentioned Brad Thorn in the same post as he challenged us to name any top international lock who is 6'5. There's an easy one. A player who was part of a very, very strong All Blacks side because his quality around the park was unparalleled by his competitors.

And Thorn- at 6'5- only an inch shorter than the 6'6 Paul O'Connell who is correctly cited as a great lineout forward. Whilst Dan Tuohy is too short. Figure it out. The difference in height between Tuohy and O'Callaghan could only be fractions of an inch.

I wouldn't mention Thorn & Tuohy in the same sentence to be honest. NZ were never rated for their lineout. SA was rated (and Matfield (someone who would have played NZ regularly) rated POC as the best he has come up against. Incidentally, POC named Pelous as his most difficult opponent and not No. 8 Hardinquoy.

Leinster selected Thorn to start ahead of Toner because Toner & Cullen are poorish scrummagers. Thorn is superb. They then had to drop Jennings to accommodate McLaughlin as another jumper (along with Heislip!). McLauglin would have been on the bench if 6'7" Nathan Hines was still with Leinster because he can do all the things that Thorn does as well as being able to jump for an attacking lineout.

By the way, Ulster's scrum got pushed around a bit by Leinster in the Heineken Cup final. That was down to Thorn's presence. Schmidt made a mistake not starting Thorn against a fairly good scrummaging side like the Os in the Rabo final.

Seriously, you are describing Hines as good in the lineout? He is competent and no more. Any team he has played for have used him sparingly in the lineout.

To be more precise then - Hines is a better lineout operator than Thorn (i.e., McLaughlin didn't have to start for Leinster so as to have an extra jumper).

The New Zealand lineout may never have been as good as SA's but they have always been extremely good on their own ball. Thorn would not have made the All Blacks team if it meant weakening another part of their team to accommodate him.

If the ABs have some part of their game that isn't as good as other parts. Their weakness is the lineout (and where Ireland could have the edge).

Pelous also played at 8 and flanker but when Poc was responding to that question it was about full game not just the lineout.
Why do you refuse to spell player's names correctly.

Last time Pelous played at 8 for France was when they were hockeyed by England in 2001 - about 60 international caps back. I doubt if Paul O'Connell ever played against Pelous when he was No 8.