SA vs England 3rd test: Build up, announcements and match thread.

[Biltong]

England

A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.


Lancaster said: “I am really pleased for Alex [Goode]. He has worked hard in training and has been pushing Mike Brown and Ben Foden close so we are looking forward to him bringing his footballing skills to this Test. Danny Care likewise has bided his time in a very competitive position, knuckled down and deserves his chance, as has James Haskell, who has played this season for the Highlanders at No 7.

“We felt that the pack got some momentum in the second half last week so we have gone for Alex [Corbisiero] and Tom [Palmer], but I am sure Joe Marler and Mo Botha can make an impact from the bench.

“The guys did the shirt proud in Potchefstroom on Tuesday and I have no doubt that the 22 involved on Saturday will rise to this final challenge as we look to end this almost 12-month season on a high.”



South Africa

Gio Aplon, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers, Wynand Olivier, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard; Tendai Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Juandre Kruger, Marcell Coetzee, Jaques Potgieter, Pierre Spies

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Ruan Pienaar, Elton Jantjies, Bjorn Basson


Looking at this team it loses a lot of physicality.

Comparing a first choice backrow of Schalk Burger, Juan smith and Willem Alberts to Jaque Potgieter, Marcell Coetzee and Pierre Spies it is clear that South Africa will have to play wider and take less contact in the ruck situation, if not England will easily be able to dominate the contest at the breakdown.

Looking at the midfield combination of Frans Steyn and Jean de Villiers compared to Wynand Olivier and Jean de Villiers it will be far inferior due to no creativity at all between the two midfielders, but also no kicking out of hand and defensively Olivier is weak.

Aplon at the back does add some creativity at 15, yet even though he is as gutsy as hell at 75 kg, he will be targeted by big runners.

All in all this will be a litmus test for this Bok team. One I sincerely hope they pass.

Problem is looking at the players out of this match be it injuries weddings etc. not having Coenie Oosthuizen, Andries Bekker, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Frans Steyn and Patrick Lambie makes this a decidedly easier test for England.

[LondonTiger]

I thought Meyer might have made some unforced changes to see other options prior to the 4Ns - but I guess he prefers to play his strongest available XV.

[Knackeredknees]

Now this could be our best shot of a win, just need to get the right replacements in for our injurys and play with some composure and belief that we can win.

Oh and show some bloody aggression in the loose and tackling

[fa0019]

ENG have to fancy their chances now. If they can't improve themselves against this side… they have serious issues IMO.

Potgeiter is not at the same level as Alberts although given its his debut I expect him to come out full guns blazing.. and in his home town too… its going to be an emotional day for what was until last year, a journeyman of SA rugby.

Lambie & Frans exclusion weakens the side. Aplon brings something different, raw pace and a very very good step but they lose Lambie’s controlled kicking and tackling.

Maisiekind has a good relationship with Morne which helps, otherwise he’s a plank.

ENG got to go into this at 100mph from the off. A result in the final test can give them belief which will set them up for the AI’s/next years 6N. A loss and I fear they will be scratching their heads thinking…. We got whitewashed by a team minus Lambie, Frans Steyn, Fourie, Alberts, Burger, Goosen, Smith & Bekker.

Morne’s kicks from hand will have to be deadly accurate… if ENG kick back well and field more than 1 kicker (i.e. Farrell & Flood) they should be able to dominate territory (something SA is not used to).

ENG have to utilise Tuilagi however if they want to stand a chance... he needs the ball in space and running at full pace to break the lines, not with a 2 step run up. Ashton too relies heavily on front foot ball to sit on the shoulders of ball carriers for the offload.

That means that the pack needs to up their game perhaps 50% from previous weeks. Bring in Palmer, Haskell & Corbisiero to beef up the side and give their backs the platform to challenge the boks… that’s the only way they’ll compete to win.

In reality if the boks had gone for the jugular in the previous 2 tests they would have blown ENG out the water. The scorelines have been close perhaps due to rustiness on the boks.

[screamingaddabs]

Does anyone know if Barritt is fit again for the third test?

Personally I'd have loved to have seen Allen play at least one test but it looks like it is not to be. I hear people comment "he's not big enough for the international game", I personally disagree but surely there is only one way to find out?!

England need to come out the changing room with real passion and to play the game at pace. The need Tuilagi at 13 and need to put him in space early on with Ashton running on his shoulder and one of 6, 7 or 8 right behind him to get quick ball if he is taken down. They don't need flashy, they need quick and direct.

[Knackeredknees]

Does anyone know if Barritt is fit again for the third test?

Personally I'd have loved to have seen Allen play at least one test but it looks like it is not to be. I hear people comment "he's not big enough for the international game", I personally disagree but surely there is only one way to find out?!

England need to come out the changing room with real passion and to play the game at pace. The need Tuilagi at 13 and need to put him in space early on with Ashton running on his shoulder and one of 6, 7 or 8 right behind him to get quick ball if he is taken down. They don't need flashy, they need quick and direct.

+1

[fa0019]

Allen against Maisiekind wouldn't be too bad a contest. Both IMO are not fit for test rugby. But I think ENG have better options.

ENG aren't going to win however by getting in a silky inside centre into the fold only... without front foot ball it would be a waste of time. The pack is where this game will be won and lost, if ENG can dominate they should be able to unleash hell on SA, if not SA should have enough to keep them at bay.

Make no mistake this ain't a great SA side.. they have 8 players who are injured or unavailable who would otherwise in in this side right now. ENG has to take their chances, they won't come up against a bok side like this in the future.
It isn't a weak side, far from it... but they ain't half as strong as they could be.

[Biltong]

Allen against Maisiekind wouldn't be too bad a contest. Both IMO are not fit for test rugby. But I think ENG have better options.

ENG aren't going to win however by getting in a silky inside centre into the fold only... without front foot ball it would be a waste of time. The pack is where this game will be won and lost, if ENG can dominate they should be able to unleash hell on SA, if not SA should have enough to keep them at bay.

Make no mistake this ain't a great SA side.. they have 8 players who are injured or unavailable who would otherwise in in this side right now. ENG has to take their chances, they won't come up against a bok side like this in the future.
It isn't a weak side, far from it... but they ain't half as strong as they could be.

The whole truth nothing but the truth.

[screamingaddabs]

Allen against Maisiekind wouldn't be too bad a contest. Both IMO are not fit for test rugby. But I think ENG have better options. (1)

ENG aren't going to win however by getting in a silky inside centre into the fold only... without front foot ball it would be a waste of time. The pack is where this game will be won and lost, if ENG can dominate they should be able to unleash hell on SA, if not SA should have enough to keep them at bay. (2)

Make no mistake this ain't a great SA side.. they have 8 players who are injured or unavailable who would otherwise in in this side right now. ENG has to take their chances, they won't come up against a bok side like this in the future. (3)
It isn't a weak side, far from it... but they ain't half as strong as they could be.

(my Numbering)

I agree with (2) and (3) massively but I disagree with the second half of (1). Of course it is just our opinion as to whether they are good enough or not, however we can't really form a particularly good opinion without seeing them play at international level. Allen has played against the very best in Europe and he has not been shown up. Unless we try him we will never know if he can do it on the international stage.

[Bullsbok]

Am i the only one not feeling negative? Jacques Potgieter is a bruiser,he's not as big as Alberts but he's a big unit and much faster. Him and Coetzee should combine very well and look forward to seeing them. Lambie is a distributing fullback he adds a lil touch here and there creating space for others, Aplon is a different beast , give him half a space and he'll tear England a new one.Dont understand why some reporters are saying he needs to prove himself when he's already shown his qualities. And he adds that extra dimension to the somewhat one dimensional backline without Lambie and Steyn.

Should be a good game as long as Meyer doesnt remove Bismarck for anything else other than Injury

[fa0019]

Different from blooding a inside centre vs. Italy, Argentina, Scotland compared to SA at home though.

Its not a case of sink or swim in SA, fail and you'll be dragged down and eaten alive.

[screamingaddabs]

Different from blooding a inside centre vs. Italy, Argentina, Scotland compared to SA at home though.

Its not a case of sink or swim in SA, fail and you'll be dragged down and eaten alive.

That's never seemed to put the Aussies off.

[fa0019]

Well SR finds people out rather quickly... if you can perform against the bulls or the stormers away, playing test rugby vs. the boks away isn't that much of a step up.

Going from the premiership and even HC is however.

Just my opinion however and I respect your sentiments.

[fa0019]

Bullsbok

I know SA like to play big lads in at blindside but I personally think Stander is a better player than Potgeiter. He's the best tackler in SA... I think he has missed one tackle all season. He is good with the ball in hand and more mobile than Potgeiter.

Potgeiter is a hog carrier though so he's the obvious replacement for Alberts.

Then again... I'd put Kolisi over them all. He tackles near as good as Stander, has genuine pace and is so strong in the contact. Both Stander and Kolisi are better than Coetzee thats for sure.... well at least to me anyhow!!!

[screamingaddabs]

Well SR finds people out rather quickly... if you can perform against the bulls or the stormers away, playing test rugby vs. the boks away isn't that much of a step up.

Going from the premiership and even HC is however.

Just my opinion however and I respect your sentiments.

Meh, fair enough. Lancaster chucked in Joseph against SA though didn't he? Why not Allen?

I suppose it would be valid to say that maybe he shouldn't have put JJ in, but all of this is irrelevant anyway because there is no way Allen will play on Saturday having played on Wednesday anyway.

[fa0019]

What is crucial is that you don't blood 2 centres at once. Blood 1 and stick with him at least against top class opposition like SA.

Joseph and Allen together I think would be too much.

[Bullsbok]

Bullsbok

I know SA like to play big lads in at blindside but I personally think Stander is a better player than Potgeiter. He's the best tackler in SA... I think he has missed one tackle all season. He is good with the ball in hand and more mobile than Potgeiter.

Potgeiter is a hog carrier though so he's the obvious replacement for Alberts.

Then again... I'd put Kolisi over them all. He tackles near as good as Stander, has genuine pace and is so strong in the contact. Both Stander and Kolisi are better than Coetzee thats for sure.... well at least to me anyhow!!!

i'll have to disagree, my blood runs blue but Coetzee is a beast he was awesome last weekend

[FerN]

At least Elton is there and I think he can only play flyhalf. Hopefully he gets a decent run. Like 30 minutes or so. Always wanted to see how the Springboks will play without Morne. Think I will get my wish, although it is not really the player I was looking for at that spot.

[screamingaddabs]

What is crucial is that you don't blood 2 centres at once. Blood 1 and stick with him at least against top class opposition like SA.

Joseph and Allen together I think would be too much.

Definitely too much. I was more proposing Allen and Tuilagi for this game. I'm just saying that he did give Joseph his first cap against SA, so the fact we are playing SA can't be the only reason he is not capping Allen.

[Bullsbok]

At least Elton is there and I think he can only play flyhalf. Hopefully he gets a decent run. Like 30 minutes or so. Always wanted to see how the Springboks will play without Morne. Think I will get my wish, although it is not really the player I was looking for at that spot.

I'm also curious to see Janjtes behind a rampaging Bok pack. We got a glimpse of his qualities last Currie Cup final hopefully he gets a meaningful run

[Toadfish]

Allen against Maisiekind wouldn't be too bad a contest. Both IMO are not fit for test rugby. But I think ENG have better options.

ENG aren't going to win however by getting in a silky inside centre into the fold only... without front foot ball it would be a waste of time. The pack is where this game will be won and lost, if ENG can dominate they should be able to unleash hell on SA, if not SA should have enough to keep them at bay.

Make no mistake this ain't a great SA side.. they have 8 players who are injured or unavailable who would otherwise in in this side right now. ENG has to take their chances, they won't come up against a bok side like this in the future.
It isn't a weak side, far from it... but they ain't half as strong as they could be.

I'm not a huge fan of using injuries as an excuse as every side gets them but just to counter this point, SA may have been weakened but so have England. I'm guessing as to what our side will be for Sat but would be pretty confident saying that 7 or 8 of them won't be in the starting line up come the AI's or six nations.

[protea438]

Allen against Maisiekind wouldn't be too bad a contest. Both IMO are not fit for test rugby. But I think ENG have better options.

ENG aren't going to win however by getting in a silky inside centre into the fold only... without front foot ball it would be a waste of time. The pack is where this game will be won and lost, if ENG can dominate they should be able to unleash hell on SA, if not SA should have enough to keep them at bay.

Make no mistake this ain't a great SA side.. they have 8 players who are injured or unavailable who would otherwise in in this side right now. ENG has to take their chances, they won't come up against a bok side like this in the future.
It isn't a weak side, far from it... but they ain't half as strong as they could be.

I'm not a huge fan of using injuries as an excuse as every side gets them but just to counter this point, SA may have been weakened but so have England. I'm guessing as to what our side will be for Sat but would be pretty confident saying that 7 or 8 of them won't be in the starting line up come the AI's or six nations.

England squad have been together longer.

Meyer had about a week

[fa0019]

It wasn't a suggestion to say that SA are beatable only because they have massive injuries... its that ENG will not face a bok team for a long time with such injuries/large number of squad players starting... and they have to take the opportunity.

[ChequeredJersey]

True but the team out on Saturday won't really resemble that which played in the 6N so I'm not sure how much continuity there will be

[Triangulation]

ENG have to fancy their chances now. If they can't improve themselves against this side… they have serious issues IMO.

Potgeiter is not at the same level as Alberts although given its his debut I expect him to come out full guns blazing.. and in his home town too… its going to be an emotional day for what was until last year, a journeyman of SA rugby.

Lambie & Frans exclusion weakens the side. Aplon brings something different, raw pace and a very very good step but they lose Lambie’s controlled kicking and tackling.

Maisiekind has a good relationship with Morne which helps, otherwise he’s a plank.

ENG got to go into this at 100mph from the off. A result in the final test can give them belief which will set them up for the AI’s/next years 6N. A loss and I fear they will be scratching their heads thinking…. We got whitewashed by a team minus Lambie, Frans Steyn, Fourie, Alberts, Burger, Goosen, Smith & Bekker.Morne’s kicks from hand will have to be deadly accurate… if ENG kick back well and field more than 1 kicker (i.e. Farrell & Flood) they should be able to dominate territory (something SA is not used to).

ENG have to utilise Tuilagi however if they want to stand a chance... he needs the ball in space and running at full pace to break the lines, not with a 2 step run up. Ashton too relies heavily on front foot ball to sit on the shoulders of ball carriers for the offload.

That means that the pack needs to up their game perhaps 50% from previous weeks. Bring in Palmer, Haskell & Corbisiero to beef up the side and give their backs the platform to challenge the boks… that’s the only way they’ll compete to win.

In reality if the boks had gone for the jugular in the previous 2 tests they would have blown ENG out the water. The scorelines have been close perhaps due to rustiness on the boks.

Then again they might also be looking forward to welcoming Croft, Wood, Lawes, Launchbery, Haskell, Armitage(?) back into the fold....

You are not the only side with injuries.

[formerly known as Sam]

Very true Tri, we've missed Croft massively.

[Triangulation]

SA have to take their opportunity on Saturday to beat such a weakened England side as well as Croft, Wood, Lawes, Launchbery, Haskell, Armitage(?) not being in the side on Saturday we'll be without Monye, Youngs and Captain Robshaw. Come the AIs we might have a full compliment and i guarantee we will want revenge for this tour.

[protea438]

SA have to take their opportunity on Saturday to beat such a weakened England side as well as Croft, Wood, Lawes, Launchbery, Haskell, Armitage(?) not being in the side on Saturday we'll be without Monye, Youngs and Captain Robshaw. Come the AIs we might have a full compliment and i guarantee we will want revenge for this tour.

I was about to say the same thing to England. There best chance with all the Bok injuries.

[fa0019]

Tri

The difference with your mentioned 6 is that they with Robshaw all compete for at most 3 jerseys.. they can't all play.

The 8 players I previously mentioned are 8 players who would dislodge those wearing the jerseys at the moment.
I could add Coenie, Du Preez, Vermuleun, Kirchner etc to the list but those guys all compete with the above etc and aren't near certain starters.

A full strength boks side would look a little like this

Beast, Bismarck, Jannie, Bekker, Etzebeth, Schalk, Smith, Alberts, Hougaard, Goosen, Habana, Frans Steyn, Fioure, JP Pietersen, Lambie.

[protea438]

Tri

The difference with your mentioned 6 is that they with Robshaw all compete for at most 3 jerseys.. they can't all play.

The 8 players I previously mentioned are 8 players who would dislodge those wearing the jerseys at the moment.
I could add Coenie, Du Preez, Vermuleun, Kirchner etc to the list but those guys all compete with the above etc and aren't near certain starters.

A full strength boks side would look a little like this

Beast, Bismarck, Jannie, Bekker, Etzebeth, Schalk, Smith, Alberts, Hougaard, Goosen, Habana, Frans Steyn, Fioure, JP Pietersen, Lambie.

Will Juan Smith ever come back, just wondering because of his injuries ?

[LondonTiger]

Injuries happen. In the modern game they happen more frequently - so all this self flagellation screaming "we have more injuries than you" is rather tedious.

If England play well enough, which means a darn sight better than so far on tour, they have a chance of winning. Not huge, but a chance.

[fa0019]

I think he can do... and his skill type (unlike a guy like Schalk for instance) are not age dependent so I don't see how he will come back any less effective.

In the end he's only 30... he is more than capable of making it to the next world cup.

[Ozzy3213]

Would Goosen really be first choice 10 at this stage fa0019? I doubt that very much to be honest with Meyer as coach. Wasn't he due to be in the JWC squad before getting injured? Like it or not Morne is 1st choice 10 right now.

Likewise Foure is not out injured, he is out as he decided to take the cash in Japan, so I think you putting him in to illustrate that SA are missing more from a full strength line up is a bit of a stretch.

[Ozzy3213]

Injuries happen. In the modern game they happen more frequently - so all this self flagellation screaming "we have more injuries than you" is rather tedious.

If England play well enough, which means a darn sight better than so far on tour, they have a chance of winning. Not huge, but a chance.

+1

Agree with all of this.

[fa0019]

Many people here had been calling for him to be blooded in this series, notably Jake White.

From next year its certain, injuries permitting that he will be first choice. He does everything Morne can do but better, has the pace of outside centre and dragged a poor Cheetahs side to respectability during the SR campaign.

[Big]

I recall reading that at any given time rugby teams have about a third of their players out injured. I'm not sure if that was an estimate or backed up by a study, but it sounds about right. So, while 8 out sounds bad and is certainly top end I don't think it's that unusual - and as pointed out by others we are missing a few ourselves including our captain and Youngs who was probably the stand out player in the last game. Added to that the trinations teams often rest players for the autumn and I can quite easily see one or more of them fielding a team that between injuries and rest is missing 8 first choice players. Don't get me wrong, there is a bit of an opportunity there and I'd love to see them take it but I don't think it's the be all and end all and more opportunities will come.

[Triangulation]

Pie in the sky.

We have injuries you have injuries. End of dicussion.

I dont see the point in trumpeting all these wonderful players who are missing. Has goosen even debuted yet?

Talk about getting carried away with yourselves.

Quad nations predictions:

1. All Blacks
2. Australia
3. Boks
4. Argentina

[Biltong]

Guys FA is merely showing that this team can be stronger, if you read my OP, I explain where the weaknesses are for this test.

[protea438]

Pie in the sky.

We have injuries you have injuries. End of dicussion.

I dont see the point in trumpeting all these wonderful players who are missing. Has goosen even debuted yet?

Talk about getting carried away with yourselves.

Quad nations predictions:

1. All Blacks
2. Australia
3. Boks
4. Argentina

Well you did actually say if certain players return for England then it will be a different story for the Boks. So in fairness you are going on about injuries. #justsaying.

I am not so sure of the All Blacks but I think the Boks could take Australia

[fa0019]

With Bekker, Schalk, Alberts, Vermeleun, Coenie, Du Preez, Frans, Lambie etc all coming back for the 4N... I expect SA to be very very competitive and at the very least they'll come 2nd.

but thats for another thread.

[Big]

Guys FA is merely showing that this team can be stronger, if you read my OP, I explain where the weaknesses are for this test.

That's fair enough, but I think the same can be said of any team. For me coaching/injury disasters aside England should get a lot stronger over the next 2-3 years. Not only is the average age pretty low, but for the most part the star players are the young ones that should get better and better. I could just as easily argue that South Africa should be worried about the damage e.g. our front row will be able to do in 3-4 years time when those players are getting to their peak.

Agree with FA on that last point, I reckon that SA will have a very good 4 nations.

[lammergeier]

With Bekker, Schalk, Alberts, Vermeleun, Coenie, Du Preez, Frans, Lambie etc all coming back for the 4N... I expect SA to be very very competitive and at the very least they'll come 2nd.

but thats for another thread.

Do you think Du Preez will come back?

[fa0019]

lammergeier

He is back.

Meyer was going to pick him for this series... and probably as captain. He then told Meyer he wasn't ready yet for a return to test rugby. If Meyer wants him, he'll be in the squad.

[Triangulation]

With Bekker, Schalk, Alberts, Vermeleun, Coenie, Du Preez, Frans, Lambie etc all coming back for the 4N... I expect SA to be very very competitive and at the very least they'll come 2nd.

but thats for another thread.

Do you think Du Preez will come back?

Possibly not. Adding to the problems here FA....

Tell you what IF your players were all fit and not getting married IF they all got selected and had not already been superceded by better younger models and you might be a stronger side. The same things can be said of England.

IF my auntie had a man sausage she'd be my uncle.

Back to the rugby.

England 22 Boks 16

[fa0019]

Tri

If you go through my original post on the 8 players blah blah blah... Du Preez wasn't one of them... as IMO he isn't a first choice player anymore.

However he is available and in Meyers plans apparently for the 4N and if he does join the squad he'll at the very least oust Pienaar from the 22 (he's probably Meyers favourite player and Meyer was going to name Du Preez series captain until Du Preez declined).

As I said in my reply... he told Meyer he wasn't ready for test rugby yet.

[Bullsbok]

With Bekker, Schalk, Alberts, Vermeleun, Coenie, Du Preez, Frans, Lambie etc all coming back for the 4N... I expect SA to be very very competitive and at the very least they'll come 2nd.

but thats for another thread.

Do you think Du Preez will come back?

Possibly not. Adding to the problems here FA....

Tell you what IF your players were all fit and not getting married IF they all got selected and had not already been superceded by better younger models and you might be a stronger side. The same things can be said of England.

IF my auntie had a man sausage she'd be my uncle.

Back to the rugby.

England 22 Boks 16

Springboks 32 England 7 . Hopefully the Boks wont remove the foot on the English throats and send the Poms packing 3-0

[yappysnap]

Englands biggest chance of the tour but I still think the Boks will have too much.

For one thing they actually have a gameplan that works, while we aren't even sure what to attempt.

[Rugby Uberlord]

England : A Goode; C Ashton, J Joseph, M Tuilagi, B Foden; T Flood, D Care; A Corbisiero, D Hartley (capt), D Cole, T Palmer, G Parling, T Johnson, J Haskell, T Waldrom.

Replacements : L Mears, J Marler, M Botha, P Dowson, L Dickson, O Farrell, B Barritt.

Good grief, Mears again

[btown]

good starting XV, shame about the bench.

[Biltong]

Overlord I am going to merge this with the match thread and add the team to the OP.

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