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Which Rabo team has made the best signings.

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bluestonevedder
Feckless Rogue
profitius
ScarletSpiderman
Notch
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LordDowlais
clivemcl
Kingshu
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Post by Artful_Dodger Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:44 pm

Following on from Matt's posts but for the Rabo instead of the AP.

Blues - Andy Kyraciou, Benoit Borrust, Lou Reed, Jason Tovey, Campese Ma'afu
Connacht - Danie Poolman, Willie Faloon, Nathan White
Ulster - Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Nick Williams, Rob Herring, Niall O'Connor
Munster - Casey Laulala, James Downey, CJ Stander
Dragons - Tom Prydie, Dan Evans, Tim Ryan Ian Nimmo
Leinster - Quinn Roux, Andrew Goodman, Michael Bent, Tom Denton
Ospreys - Jonathan Spratt
Scarlets - George Earle, Gareth Owen, Tomás Vallejos, Kristian Phillips
Edinburgh - WP Nel, Izak van der Westhuizen, John Yapp, Dimitri Basilaia, Ben Atiga, Richie Rees
Glasgow - Sean Lamont, Viliami Ma'afu, Angus MacDonald
Treviso - Alberto de Marchi, Simone Favaro, Giulio Toniolatti

Looks to me like all teams will be stronger than they were last season, with the possible exception of the Ospreys who have lost a lot of top players and not really brought in any big names. I don't think the Dragons will move much as a result of their signigns. Edinburgh though, have really signed well as have Ulster. Blues signings can be a bit deceptive as they have lost an awful lot of names in the off season. Sorry for any mistakes btw.


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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:19 pm

Dodge, don't think Jason White has moved to Glasgow OK

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Post by justified sinner Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:26 pm

However they do have Angus MacDonald kiwi 6

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Post by Janecory Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:31 pm

Add Greg Tonks to that Edinburgh list, I would say Edinburgh!


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Post by Artful_Dodger Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:32 pm

Sorry ASBO got wiki'd there.

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Post by RDW Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:21 pm

It's WP Nel not JP.

I think Edinburgh have signed well but I'll reserve judgment until I've seen them play a few games!

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Post by Morgannwg Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:24 pm

By the looks of that list, Munster. The midfield has power and skill. Stander will give the team more 'go-forward'. They lacked this when the injuries piled up last season. I watched CJ play for the Bulls on the weekend, that guy really is another SA monster.

Probably closely followed by Scarlets.
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Post by Artful_Dodger Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Yep - scanning all of the above, I think Edinburgh are really going to be a force to be reckoned with next season, only question will they once again focus everything on the HC at the expense of the league.

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Post by maestegmafia Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:59 pm

What about the best academy talent progressing to senior honours?

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Post by Janecory Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:19 am

maestegmafia wrote:What about the best academy talent progressing to senior honours?
Corrwg, start a different thread please !

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Post by Mickado Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:46 am

Edinburgh, Munster and Ulster have all recruited well.

Think Ulster have the pick of them with Bowe and Wilson though.

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Post by Kingshu Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:49 am

For Ulster
Players in (Season 2012/2013)
Tommy Bowe from Ospreys
Roger Wilson from Northampton
Niall O'Connor from Connacht Rugby
Rob Herring from Western Province
Michael Heaney from Doncaster Knights
Sean Doyle from Southern Districts
Nick Williams from Aironi

Players out (Season 2012/2013)
Conor Gaston to London Irish
Ian Whitten to Exeter Chiefs
Willie Faloon to Connacht Rugby
Pedrie Wannenburg to Castres
Andy Kyriacou to Cardiff Blues
Ian Humphreys to London Irish
Tim Barker to Rainey Old Boys
Simon Danielli Retiring
Stefan Terblanche Retiring
James McKinney to Rotherham
Jerry Cronin to Doncaster Knights

Overall I'd say we're stronger first XV and squad wise;

lost Pedrie Wannenburg gained Wilson back
Lost Simon Danielli gained Bowe back
Lost Stefan Terblanche but he was only injury cover for Payne who is back from injury
lost Willie Faloon gained Willaims and moved Birch up from acamady
lost Ian Humphreys, but promoted P Jackson and brought NOC back (have to see if this is better or not this season, but will be better for future)
Lost Ian Whitten who is a good player but was only 3rd choice 12, so better for him to leave for 1st team rugby
Most others are like for like, either bringing in similar (maybe better we'll see over the season) or promoting from within.

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Post by clivemcl Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:54 am

He may have been signed last summer, but considering Payne was out all season, he is pretty much a new signing for Ulster. A new face on the pitch anyway.

Hard to see any other team with better changes than the addition of Payne, Bowe and Wilson.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:06 am

I think the Blues have made a clever signing in Jason Tovey, whilst he can be a bit hit and miss with his goal kicking, what he will do is get the backs running, the Blues have not had this type of player since Nicky Robinson, with the backs the Blues have, Tom James, Leigh Halfpenny, Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert and Harry Robinson, if Jason Tovey can get them the ball and not kick it at every opportunity like Dan Parks was doing, then I think that the Blues will surprise a lot of people this comming season.

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Post by red_stag Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:15 am

Ulster have recruited the best I think.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:40 am

Janecory wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:What about the best academy talent progressing to senior honours?
Corrwg, start a different thread please !

Considering that a third of the teams in the league have not bought talent but have raised their own through academies. Similarly all the teams have very successful academies producing exciting talent.

Buying in talent is almost an element of failure in my opinion.

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Post by clivemcl Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:50 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Buying in talent is almost an element of failure in my opinion.

This is club rugby though, its not internationals. We can't turn the tide on the commercialism at this stage. If a homegrown is willing to leave for another club, then likewise it should be acceptable to buy someone elses homegrown talent.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:01 am

That's not necesarily what happens with it though is it.

For Example why have Munster just bought CJ Stander when they have raised the excellent Peter O'Mahony..?

Bought Lualala when they have raised and nurtured Keith Earls?

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Post by Notch Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:08 am

Because those players will miss large chunks of the season.

O'Mahony and Earls might play around 10 Pro12 games in the regular season. Pro12 is about strength and depth, especially for the Irish provinces who are chafing against increasingly restrictive IRFU dictats on playing time.

However the signing of Lualala will worry Declan Kidney who seems to see Earls as the long term answer at 13. However Kidney is a bit of a lame duck at this stage. One year to go on his contract and little chance of an extension, and everyone knows it.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:26 am

Edinburgh, folloowed by the Dragons.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:37 am

Notch wrote:Because those players will miss large chunks of the season.

O'Mahony and Earls might play around 10 Pro12 games in the regular season. Pro12 is about strength and depth, especially for the Irish provinces who are chafing against increasingly restrictive IRFU dictats on playing time.

However the signing of Lualala will worry Declan Kidney who seems to see Earls as the long term answer at 13. However Kidney is a bit of a lame duck at this stage. One year to go on his contract and little chance of an extension, and everyone knows it.

Notch

I do understand your point though it does feel like stop gap measures rather than a forward thinking solution. I hope to see plenty of O'Mahoney though. He is a cracking talent and surely a future Irish or even lions number eight. Let's hope Stander doesn't slow his progress.

The welsh regions have made few if any signings and I see that as a very positive step for the future sustainability of non international rugby in Wales.

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Post by Morgannwg Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:13 am

Will O'Mahoney pack down at 7 and Stander at 8? Earls on the wing or at full back?
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Post by profitius Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:17 am

Morgannwg wrote:Will O'Mahoney pack down at 7 and Stander at 8? Earls on the wing or at full back?

Couldn't tell you where POM or Stander will end up. POM needs to put on some weight and I think he has been doing that over the summer. With all the 7s Munster have I would guess that POM will be playing either 6 or 8 this season and into the future. Stander is another who can play across the backrow. I've never seen him play so I can't comment.
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Post by Morgannwg Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:21 am

I seen Stander play against the Cheetas last weekend. The guy is a machine. SA's back-row depth is out of this world if he can't get near the Bulls Super 15 team or Springbok team. He should prosper when playing in the league, he is tough to bring down when going on his big runs. Oh and I thought Munster were a bit light at 7 with Wallace gone, with only one established open-side (O'Donnel was it?).
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Post by Feckless Rogue Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:25 am

I think Ulster have made the best signings. Although I don't recognise many of the names that Edinburgh have signed. I don't know how good they'll be.

The Welsh regions have normally had more foreign players in their sides than the other PRO12 nations. If they have less now, it's because they have no money because nobody goes to watch them.

But I agree, Welsh pro rugby has to be sustainable, so it's a good thing that they've scaled back. But if Edinburgh or Munster have the money available to strengthen their squads then they're right to do it. No need for the Welsh get on their high horse about signing foreigners. Because the Welsh signed loads until the money ran out.
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Post by profitius Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:27 am

Morgannwg wrote:I seen Stander play against the Cheetas last weekend. The guy is a machine. SA's back-row depth is out of this world if he can't get near the Bulls Super 15 team or Springbok team. He should prosper when playing in the league, he is tough to bring down when going on his big runs. Oh and I thought Munster were a bit light at 7 with Wallace gone, with only one established open-side (O'Donnel was it?).

Theres O'Donnell, Niall Ronan (injured since around jan/feb) and new signing Sean Dougal. Dougal is starting most of the pre season games and playing well too from all accounts.

I've heard good things about Stander. Munster need another ball carrier too so its a good signing, probably.
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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:50 am

I agree with most of the sentiments here, Ulster's signings stand out, though I think Edinburgh are very good as well, Nel is a top tighthead.

Think it could be a slow year for some of the regions, Blues and Ospreys have lost an awful lot of players and in the case of the Ospreys are only bolstering it through the academy. Blues signings don't really impress me, aside from Tovey which is an astute signing. Dragons have lost key players like Tovey, Brew and Charteris and havent really replaced them. Scarlets have probably made the best signings of the regions but still look very light in the front row.

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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:54 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:I agree with most of the sentiments here, Ulster's signings stand out, though I think Edinburgh are very good as well, Nel is a top tighthead.

Think it could be a slow year for some of the regions, Blues and Ospreys have lost an awful lot of players and in the case of the Ospreys are only bolstering it through the academy. Blues signings don't really impress me, aside from Tovey which is an astute signing. Dragons have lost key players like Tovey, Brew and Charteris and havent really replaced them. Scarlets have probably made the best signings of the regions but still look very light in the front row.

I think most people in Wales are very happy to see the regions not signing players but promoting from their academies.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:02 am

Really? Promoting from the academies is great but so is signing top class players in key positions. Helps the team to succeed and can be good for developing young players as well. I agree with Feckless above, think if the regions had the money they would be making big signings, I think relying on the academies is more a necessity rather than a principle.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:12 am

Dodge, I'm curious as to why you ( and others) think that Ulster's signings stand out? Bowe in for Danielli is a big bonus, but I'm not sure that Wilson is the equal of Wannenburg, certainly not when the latter was in his pomp over the last two seasons. The rest seem like bit/squad players at best. Payne's return will be a boost, but that's not strictly a new signing, and the switch of Jacson over iHump will almost be like a new signing, but the youngster still is unproven at this level imo. So, it's really just Bowe that is the stand-out signing, and altho he's in for Danielli, the Scot wasn't getting much game time anyhew, so there's a chance that either Gilroy or Trimble, both v good players, will have to miss out, unless Bowe plays at 13 to accommodate them, in which case Cave misses out - none of these options is great for Ulster, unless I'm missing something?

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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:13 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:Really? Promoting from the academies is great but so is signing top class players in key positions. Helps the team to succeed and can be good for developing young players as well. I agree with Feckless above, think if the regions had the money they would be making big signings, I think relying on the academies is more a necessity rather than a principle.

It seems to be a principle that works well for us though doesn't it. Look at how many talented young players we have uncovered through investment in youth programs and the academies over the last few years that have improved the regional teams. Investing in young academy players with talent and not buying in players turns young lads into top talent quickly.

North, Cuthbert, Faletau, Tupuric, Ken Owens, Aaron Shingler, Scott Williams to name a few capped players.

The profitability of regional rugby has little to do with it, most of the clubs in Europe are losing money, by investing in Academy talent the regions are creating a sustainable environment to continue and improve their own competitiveness.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:18 am

Its about depth mate. Last season we tried to compete on two fronts and fell short of the playoffs and ran out of steam in the HC final. Wilson may not be better than Wannenburg(don't think there's much in it) but Wilson and Williams is a lot better than just Wannenburg. We have a huge number of options all across the back row now and there will undoubtedly be a lot of competition for places. Bowe is class signing, last season we had Gilroy and Trimble, this season we have Gilroy, Trimble and Bowe - that is a hell of a lot stronger. I don't think Bowe will play 13 when we have Cave and Spence there, think Trimble or Gilroy will miss out or there will be some rotation, there is also of course the possibility of someone being injured.

All in all if you look at the depth we've added to key area's, I think our squad this season will be quite a bit stronger than last season.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:26 am

I know what you're saying about squad depth, but (leaving out Bowe and Wilson) are Herring, Heaney, NOC, Williams and Doyle that much better than those on their way out? I'm not convinced. Oddly, players coming up from the academy or youngsters last season may feature more prominently in real action this year than those 5?

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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:30 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:Its about depth mate. Last season we tried to compete on two fronts and fell short of the playoffs and ran out of steam in the HC final. Wilson may not be better than Wannenburg(don't think there's much in it) but Wilson and Williams is a lot better than just Wannenburg. We have a huge number of options all across the back row now and there will undoubtedly be a lot of competition for places. Bowe is class signing, last season we had Gilroy and Trimble, this season we have Gilroy, Trimble and Bowe - that is a hell of a lot stronger. I don't think Bowe will play 13 when we have Cave and Spence there, think Trimble or Gilroy will miss out or there will be some rotation, there is also of course the possibility of someone being injured.

All in all if you look at the depth we've added to key area's, I think our squad this season will be quite a bit stronger than last season.

Bowe, Gillroy, Trimble, Cave and Spence are all great examples of how successful the Ulster academy and youth system is. Marshall and Jackson too...

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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:33 am

The players those guys are replacing weren't getting a look in anyway - Kyriacou was third choice at hooker, Humphrey's was dropped for Jackson towards the end of last season anyway. It would of been good to keep Faloon and Whitten but they werent getting enough game time to keep them. From what I can surmise we've gained a lot of depth and I don't think we've lost any strength in the first team.

Maesteg - I agree Ulster academy is doing well, top home grown players, good signings and a strong academy is a great recipe for success.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:38 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:I agree with most of the sentiments here, Ulster's signings stand out, though I think Edinburgh are very good as well, Nel is a top tighthead.

Think it could be a slow year for some of the regions, Blues and Ospreys have lost an awful lot of players and in the case of the Ospreys are only bolstering it through the academy. Blues signings don't really impress me, aside from Tovey which is an astute signing. Dragons have lost key players like Tovey, Brew and Charteris and havent really replaced them. Scarlets have probably made the best signings of the regions but still look very light in the front row.

I think most people in Wales are very happy to see the regions not signing players but promoting from their academies.

I could not agree more, getting the home grown talent on the pitch is a must, I cannot wait to see how the young Ospreys players do this coming season after having last season to cut their teeth. Also there are a lot of other youngster in and around the regions that will all get invaluable experience this season and it all bodes well for the future.



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Post by bluestonevedder Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:I agree with most of the sentiments here, Ulster's signings stand out, though I think Edinburgh are very good as well, Nel is a top tighthead.

Think it could be a slow year for some of the regions, Blues and Ospreys have lost an awful lot of players and in the case of the Ospreys are only bolstering it through the academy. Blues signings don't really impress me, aside from Tovey which is an astute signing. Dragons have lost key players like Tovey, Brew and Charteris and havent really replaced them. Scarlets have probably made the best signings of the regions but still look very light in the front row.

I think most people in Wales are very happy to see the regions not signing players but promoting from their academies.

I could not agree more, getting the home grown talent on the pitch is a must, I cannot wait to see how the young Ospreys players do this coming season after having last season to cut their teeth. Also there are a lot of other youngster in and around the regions that will all get invaluable experience this season and it all bodes well for the future.

Tom Lewis has signed a contract at Ospreys for this season right? He's made some good contributions to them over the last season during the LV, and worked his way up from the Whites. He also played for Swansea University, and played very well in their win over Cardiff at this year's varsity match.

Looking forward to seeing him play this season, but faces stiff compeition from Tipuric.

Any Ospreys fans on here reckon he could do big things, or is he more of a club player?

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:54 am

profitius wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:Will O'Mahoney pack down at 7 and Stander at 8? Earls on the wing or at full back?

Couldn't tell you where POM or Stander will end up. POM needs to put on some weight and I think he has been doing that over the summer. With all the 7s Munster have I would guess that POM will be playing either 6 or 8 this season and into the future. Stander is another who can play across the backrow. I've never seen him play so I can't comment.

Apparently he has put on weight. Have you seen his profile on the Munster website for this season? He is 17 stone now.

I would say this is a good indicator he wants to focus on 6/8. Also, Stander plays openside usually.

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Post by red_stag Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:57 am

Rory, by all accounts Stander's main attribute is his ball carrying. He would be a David Wallace / Chris Henry type 7. I would be inclined to see:

06 Peter O'Mahony
07 Tommy O'Donnell / Niall Ronan / Sean Dougall / Barry O'Mahony
08 CJ Stander

I think that Stander and O'Mahony will need a different type of player alongside them. James Coughlan with them wouldnt work for me.
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Post by Notch Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:07 pm

I think Ulster need to bring in players as well as promote from within to get the depth we need short term. Hopefully the extra investment will mean we can be more self-sufficient long term. But guys like Sean Doyle and Rob Herring are necessary to provide competition. They'll be competing at hooker and openside with two guys from the Academy in Niall Annett and Ali Birch who have both graduated from the Academy this summer. The better player will get gametime in each case. I'm not too bothered because I know our best Academy players will win out and having other guys battling for the shirt will push them on as players.

I think the Ospreys really will miss Paul James. Maybe if the money was there they would have gone looking for a top class loosehead prop. They've been able to promote from within to replace Williams and Bowe and the amount of young backs they have is a great testament to their Academy. But Bevington will take a while to reach his level.
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Post by Notch Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:14 pm

Heaney is coming in, but he IS an Ulster Academy graduate. As is O'Connor.

I think Edinburgh have made the best signings by the way. Very happy with Ulsters business over the summer as well, but I think Edinburgh have two guys in Atiga and Nel who will make a big impact on the first team.
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Post by Feckless Rogue Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:54 pm

Leinsters signings are quite uninspiring. None of them will even be first choice. They're just there for squad depth. Not sure we needed Goodman.
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Post by maestegmafia Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:01 pm

Phill Godman the scot?

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Post by justified sinner Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:03 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Phill Godman the scot?

No World Class Phil is of to London Scottish.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Notch wrote:Heaney is coming in, but he IS an Ulster Academy graduate. As is O'Connor.

I think Edinburgh have made the best signings by the way. Very happy with Ulsters business over the summer as well, but I think Edinburgh have two guys in Atiga and Nel who will make a big impact on the first team.

I thought Heaney looked very very good against Leicester Tigers in the friendly. Loving the tackle on Waldrom at 53 second in these highlights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19308408?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

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Post by Artful_Dodger Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:23 pm

Actually is that Marshall?

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Post by rodders Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:28 pm

No it was Heaney, Marshall wasn't playing I don't think? Pretty sure has was loitering around the Terrace.
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Post by Feckless Rogue Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:45 pm

I think the Goodman that Leinster signed is a utility back from New Zealand. I think he heard he can kick goals. Maybe he's cover in anticipation of both Sexton and Madigan missing games because of Ireland duties?
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:57 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think the Goodman that Leinster signed is a utility back from New Zealand. I think he heard he can kick goals. Maybe he's cover in anticipation of both Sexton and Madigan missing games because of Ireland duties?
he's a 10/12 that can kick. madigan will be with the ireland squad so we i think we do need him as reid will be our only 10 when they are gone.

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Post by rodders Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:28 pm

clivemcl wrote:He may have been signed last summer, but considering Payne was out all season, he is pretty much a new signing for Ulster. A new face on the pitch anyway.

Hard to see any other team with better changes than the addition of Payne, Bowe and Wilson.

Yeah I concur. I think we've done pretty well and look a very serious side this year, stronger across the board and hopefully less reliant on a small group of core players to get us results.
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