Scotland vs All Blacks @ 2.30pm Sunday 11 Nov Murrayfield

Majestic83 wrote:The scrum half for Saracens at the melrose 7s was Ali Price who is on a dual contract with Bedford.

I didnt even realise he was SQ!

Oh, add Russell Weir, also with the 7's to that list.

edit: and Sam Hidalgo Clyne.

Majestic83 wrote:The scrum half for Saracens at the melrose 7s was Ali Price who is on a dual contract with Bedford.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Off the top of my head? **Lots of 'em**

Nice one IBD & Majestic!

Thanks for the info. You've nullified my concern. I was worried there for a second, wondering if the Scottish Scrum Half Factory was grinding to a halt

I must admit I completely forgot about Kennedy and McConnell. Kennedy had a good game for the Warriors earlier this season if i remember correctly but I've barely seen McConnell play. I agree about Leck, we shouldn't need nor want him. We've always prided ourselves on our talented home-grown scrum halves because we've always produced them.

Sam Hidalgo-Clyne - thought he was a FH/FB, he played there for U20s I think. What do Embra consider him as?

So in the works we have at least 10 young promising SHs who could feasibly vie for a RWC 2015 spot.
Here's to them stepping up soon

Anyway, apologies for going off-topic, I'm kind of avoiding thinking about the trouncing we're likely to get against the ABs.
The front-row problem is a bit nightmare-ish.

SlipperyAsAWetTrout wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The scrum half for Saracens at the melrose 7s was Ali Price who is on a dual contract with Bedford.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Off the top of my head? **Lots of 'em**

Nice one IBD & Majestic!

Thanks for the info. You've nullified my concern. I was worried there for a second, wondering if the Scottish Scrum Half Factory was grinding to a halt

I must admit I completely forgot about Kennedy and McConnell. Kennedy had a good game for the Warriors earlier this season if i remember correctly but I've barely seen McConnell play. I agree about Leck, we shouldn't need nor want him. We've always prided ourselves on our talented home-grown scrum halves because we've always produced them.

Sam Hidalgo-Clyne - thought he was a FH/FB, he played there for U20s I think. What do Embra consider him as?

So in the works we have at least 10 young promising SHs who could feasibly vie for a RWC 2015 spot.
Here's to them stepping up soon

Anyway, apologies for going off-topic, I'm kind of avoiding thinking about the trouncing we're likely to get against the ABs.
The front-row problem is a bit nightmare-ish.

no worries.

You are correct regarding Hidalgo-Clyne playing Full back for the u20's, but that was more a case of accomodating him on the pitch than anything else. He was exposed defensively quite a lot. He is apparently a very good scrumhalf/flyhalf in the Michalak mould. I think hes been talked about as a Flyhalf primarily due to our obvious obsession with searching for the messiah. Now that the Blair/Cussiter/Lawson cartel is in its twilight, I think well see him be considered as a scrumhalf.

Laidlaw I think will be the long term solution to the SH problem. He is hands down probably the best heads up footballer in Scotland.

He has fantastic vision, he is lightning quick around the base of the ruck, has great service and pass speed and he can read the game really well.

I would like to see him get a run out at 9 in one of the games in the AI's with Jackson at 10.

Sorry to bring the conversation back to the AB game, but I'm sure I read/heard that Robinson was going to review the squad after the AB game. So I guess there is a chance that Tonks could be brought in then.

This could be rubbish of course, but I'm pretty sure I saw it somewhere.

Quick question though, would everyone accept a slightly weaker side put out against the ABs considering we need to win the other two matches to improve our ranking position or would you rather we put out a full strength team and hope that everyone makes it through for the next game?

I'm not sure which I'd prefer as it was pretty grim when Hadden did this against them (not least because I'd paid in the region of £200 for a ticket to go to the game, note to self never agree to anything when drunk), but the other games are arguably more important to us.

No matter who we pick I don't think we can beat the All Blacks. Although I would hate to send out a bunch of new caps and untested players to be crushed.

Play to win, despite how unlikely that might be.

Jacobsen and Cross miss Edinburgh's game this week with slight knocks, as does Laidlaw but all still expected to be available for Scotland.
http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4496-medical-update-from-er
In better news, Ben Cairns is back in full training and expected to return to playing in November, Visser starts tomorrow and so does Richie Gray for Sale.

Worrying about chunk, cross and Laidlaw. Hopefully AR lets them play next week to get somegame time. Dont want to be rusty against the ABs!

Greater news on cairnsy - he's been out well over a year

Also good for Gray - thought that would be more long term.

Not sure I'd recognise Cairns if I bumped into him in the street! Great to have him back - options are everything.

Surprised that Gray is back - hope he hasn't been rushed. I am surprised to find myself saying this, but on current form it wouldn't be the end of the world if Kellock started with Hamilton against the ABs. I'd still like to see Gray versus Whitelock though.

Is Gray fit or are they rushing him back?

Should we be concerned that for Fridays game V the Scarlets, De Luca is playing at 12 & Scott at 13. A deliberate move according to the Edinburgh website.
Hope this isn't some madcap idea from Robinson with an eye on the AI's...

Whitelock vs Gilchrist would be interesting seeing as Whitelock mentored Gilchrist.

Yep that would be an interesting match up between the two especially since it was only last summer the Whitelock took him under his wing and think there was still emails going back and forward between the two of them at the beginning of this year offering advice to Gilchrist.
Kelly Brown against Richie McCaw will be interesting too as I am sure Kelly stayed with McCaw and his family years ago on a trip to NZ with the U21's or some sort of exchange programme.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
ASBO
Good to see your Maitland wish came to fruition, just sing out when you want some more.


PS: usual fee applies.

Ah yes, laurie, about that fee ...

... the check is in the post, honest guv!

Young Tom Heathcote at Bath could be a decent prospect at flyhalf - hopefully with Farrell, Ford and Burns ahead of him, he realises where his true allegiance has been all along!

There were murmurings on twitter before the squad was announced that Heathcote could be called up. May be something in the pipeline

Bumbler Robinson needs to use his Barf connections to work on the young lad - who wouldn't want to play with a back three of Visser-Hogg-Maitland after all?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Bumbler Robinson needs to use his Barf connections to work on the young lad - who wouldn't want to play with a back three of Visser-Hogg-Maitland after all?

Aye ASBO, but how about the Warriors DTH-Hogg-Maitland too. Reckon we should sign him ?!

Don't be greedy, you already have weir, jackson and wight. He should go to edinburgh, we only have laidlaw, a very green leonard and hunter!

I hope lineen doesn't just send all the good players to glasgow!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I hope lineen doesn't just send all the good players to glasgow!

Yes, that would be tragic, wouldn't it

I'll swap you Atiga, Parker, Basilia and Penn for Strauss or Maitland.....

I'm normally trying to look on the bright side of things. Looking for that wee bit hope that Scotland might be able to do something. That the grit, determination and willingness to put your body on the line could result in a good scotland performance.

This time I can't see anything but a whooping

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'll swap you Atiga, Parker, Basilia and Penn for Strauss or Maitland.....

I wonder how bad things will get for Edinburgh before Penn is an a starting lineup...

I see that Hogg is at 13 for the Weedge...is Robinson looking at a De Luca - Hogg 12/13 combo??

RDW_Scotland wrote:I see that Hogg is at 13 for the Weedge...is Robinson looking at a De Luca - Hogg 12/13 combo??

Hmmmmm. If so, he's obviously not convinced about the form of Scott or Horne. I can see the argument for having the defensively sound NDL at 12, but he's never been that great there for either Scotland or Edinburgh. It would be a big gamble, and not one I'd take. Scott's a class player, and Hogg works best picking lines from 15. Plus, our other options at 15 aren't great at the moment.

who would play at 15?

I think Hogg is better at 15 too, and you'd have to pink Tom Brown at FB then or an uncapped Murchie...

Doubt it, Horne's injury has just meant a shuffle in the backs.

Curious thing is last week, Hogg was retained at 15 while Murchie was 13. This week Murchie is 15 and Hogg 13. Why swap them around now? Whats changed in the space of a week in Toony's opinion?

One of his brain farts no doubt !

Who knows what random thoughts pass through Tonnie's head in 7 minutes let alone 7 days!

It's amazing that Murchie is still being moved around like this. I don't think he's got the speed to play in the back three and 13 has been a bit of a problem area for a Glasgow since Max Evans went to Castres. DTH's try-scoring record is too good to move him into 13 but with the Lamonts and Maitland coming into contention, Hogg could find himself playing at 13 a bit more I think. He should be left at 15, as far as I'm concerned.

As long as Dunbar is at 12 I'm not too bothered whether it's DTH or Hogg who move to 13. Dunbar's ability to break the line is something we've not had in a long time at Glasgow. With either of them hanging on his shoulder there will be plenty of opportunities to run in tries. Remember Hogg away to Munster last year?

What will Robinson go for next weekend?

15: Hogg
14: Evans
13: De Luca
12: Scott
11: Visser
10: Jackson
9: Laidlaw
8: Brown
7: Rennie
6: Denton
5: Hamilton
4: Gray
3: Cross
2: Ford
1: Grant

16: Hall
17: Jacobson
18: Traynor
19: Kellock
20: Strokosch
21: Blair
22: Dunbar
23: Seymour

reallybored wrote:What will Robinson go for next weekend?

15: Hogg
14: Evans
13: De Luca
12: Scott
11: Visser
10: Jackson
9: Laidlaw
8: Brown
7: Rennie
6: Denton
5: Hamilton
4: Gray
3: Cross
2: Ford
1: Grant

16: Hall
17: Jacobson
18: Traynor
19: Kellock
20: Strokosch
21: Blair
22: Dunbar
23: Seymour

No chance he will start Laidlaw and Jackson. Given that Scott and Evans's game time has been limited this season, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lamont in the back-line. Here's hoping not at 12. Brown continuing at number-eight would be a mistake but I think the tight-five and their replacements pick themselves seeing as there is no one else around.

God poor Ryan Grant having to play in the front row with those 2 t*ts !!!

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:God poor Ryan Grant having to play in the front row with those 2 t*ts !!!

Who should be playing with him then?

Imperialbigdave - We've tried our best with 21st but if you just let him have these rants (he knows there are no alternatives) and just ignore him everyone will get on fine!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Imperialbigdave - We've tried our best with 21st but if you just let him have these rants (he knows there are no alternatives) and just ignore him everyone will get on fine!

oh I know, i got sucked into one a few months back, but even so, its a valid question.

The All Blacks team is: (with province and Test caps. * denotes a new cap)

Forwards:

Hookers
Dane Coles - Wellington *
Andrew Hore - Taranaki (72)
Keven Mealamu - Auckland (100)

Props
Wyatt Crockett - Canterbury (7)
Charlie Faumuina - Auckland (4)
Ben Franks - Canterbury (21)
Owen Franks - Canterbury (41)
Tony Woodcock - North Harbour (92)

Locks
Brodie Retallick - Bay of Plenty (10)
Luke Romano - Canterbury (8)
Ali Williams - Auckland (75)
Samuel Whitelock - Canterbury (35)

Loose forwards
Sam Cane - Bay of Plenty (4)
Richie McCaw (captain) - Canterbury (113)
Liam Messam - Waikato (17)
Kieran Read - Canterbury (45)
Adam Thomson - Otago (28)
Victor Vito - Wellington (17)

Backs:

Halfbacks
Tawera Kerr–Barlow - Waikato *
Aaron Smith - Manawatu (10)
Piri Weepu - Auckland (66)

First five-eighths
Beauden Barrett - Taranaki (2)
Daniel Carter - Canterbury (92)
Aaron Cruden - Manawatu (18)

Midfielders
Tamati Ellison - Otago (3)
Ma’a Nonu - Wellington (73)
Conrad Smith - Wellington (63)

Outside backs
Israel Dagg - Hawke’s Bay (22)
Hosea Gear - Wellington (13)
Cory Jane - Wellington (38)
Ben Smith - Otago (9)
Julian Savea - Wellington (5)

(http://www.allblacks.com/news/20928/All-Blacks-Air-NZ-European-Tour-squad-announced)

Have to mention. Cole's is our (Poneke's) 1st AB in almost 75 years.

That and fact Hanson has stated everyone will get a game against either Italy or Scotland. This is pretty standard. The AB's usually use these games as development. It does increase the risk of a loss.

Agree it does BC but thats the beauty of watching this side. The new guys come in fresh and well aware of the AB story. That freshness can easily make up for 80 tests of experience in enthusiasm alone.

Kerr Barlow and Coles are very mobile, energetic players and between them theyve met most of the Boks, Wallabies and All Blacks with their sxv sides so theyll be pumped. Id expect both to play first test to get their tour nerves out of the way.

blackcanelion wrote:The All Blacks team is: (with province and Test caps. * denotes a new cap)

Forwards:

Hookers
Dane Coles - Wellington *
Andrew Hore - Taranaki (72)
Keven Mealamu - Auckland (100)

Props
Wyatt Crockett - Canterbury (7)
Charlie Faumuina - Auckland (4)
Ben Franks - Canterbury (21)
Owen Franks - Canterbury (41)
Tony Woodcock - North Harbour (92)

Locks
Brodie Retallick - Bay of Plenty (10)
Luke Romano - Canterbury (8)
Ali Williams - Auckland (75)
Samuel Whitelock - Canterbury (35)

Loose forwards
Sam Cane - Bay of Plenty (4)
Richie McCaw (captain) - Canterbury (113)
Liam Messam - Waikato (17)
Kieran Read - Canterbury (45)
Adam Thomson - Otago (28)
Victor Vito - Wellington (17)

Backs:

Halfbacks
Tawera Kerr–Barlow - Waikato *
Aaron Smith - Manawatu (10)
Piri Weepu - Auckland (66)

First five-eighths
Beauden Barrett - Taranaki (2)
Daniel Carter - Canterbury (92)
Aaron Cruden - Manawatu (18)

Midfielders
Tamati Ellison - Otago (3)
Ma’a Nonu - Wellington (73)
Conrad Smith - Wellington (63)

Outside backs
Israel Dagg - Hawke’s Bay (22)
Hosea Gear - Wellington (13)
Cory Jane - Wellington (38)
Ben Smith - Otago (9)
Julian Savea - Wellington (5)

(http://www.allblacks.com/news/20928/All-Blacks-Air-NZ-European-Tour-squad-announced)

looks weak. Scotland by 20+.

Kerr-Barlow is a superb prospect, I certainly can't see him letting the jersey down should be get a start against Scotland

I am content with Scotland loosing this. Just want to see a good performance, a good game and staying with them.

tigertattie wrote:I am content with Scotland loosing this. Just want to see a good performance, a good game and staying with them.

I wouldn't have much problem with Scotland losing any game if they played well. I was really encouraged by the France game in the 2011 Six Nations because we played well, despite getting beasted quite badly in the scrum. The next week we lost to Wales in what was probably the worst Scotland performance I've ever seen.

A lot of Scotland fans I speak to are content with the couple of ugly wins we grind out per year and use wins against Australia and the Springboks to overlook just how poor a team Scotland are and have been for the past decade or more. The way I see it is that if Scotland played consistently well the results would eventually follow and the team could go from there. I don't see that happening, especially under Robinson and would think Scotland will continue to eke out wins (and losses) against Italy and the Pacific Islanders until the next Rugby World Cup. Give it 20 years and the likes of Georgia and Russia will probably be catching Scotland at a rate of knots, if we haven't already been surpassed and that'll be that.

The one thing about Scotland is as Kiwis we certainly dont expect to lose this and theres good reason to continue to think this way going purely on results to date- we tend to find them easier than the other NH sides by a margin.

The danger of this is in very recent times- Scotland have beaten SA at home and Oz and Argie x 2 both away- so are therefore fully capable of an upset or two. If they can match what 2 or 3 sides have done this year at the breakdowns they could catch the AB's napping as well.

Can't see it but also can't deny the possibility purely on a historical basis.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:The way I see it is that if Scotland played consistently well the results would eventually follow and the team could go from there. I don't see that happening, especially under Robinson and would think Scotland will continue to eke out wins (and losses) against Italy and the Pacific Islanders until the next Rugby World Cup. Give it 20 years and the likes of Georgia and Russia will probably be catching Scotland at a rate of knots, if we haven't already been surpassed and that'll be that.

I agree with you about consistency, it has been lacking badly for Scotland for over a decade. my number one grievance has been our total lack of support and smart offloading in the backs. Essentially, Scotland have had no decent backline to speak of for a long long time. I know you think under AR we cannot become consistent but I think by comparing the side who played England in the 2009 6 nations (Frank Hadden's last game as head coach) with the side we could have by early next year, things are looking extremely promising.

Scotland team vs England 2009 6N

1.Dickinson 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.White 5.Hamilton 6.Strokosh 7.S Gray 8.Taylor 9.Blair 10.Godman 11.T Evans 12.Morrison 13.M Evans 14. Danielle 15. Paterson

A possible side to play England 2013 6N

1.Grant 2.Ford 3.Cross 4.Gray 5.Hamilton 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Blair 10.Laidlaw 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Dunbar 14.Maitland 15.Hogg

The main difference is definitely the backline. Scotland's backs still have yet to show their true potential despite flourishes of brilliance in 6 nations this year (hogg & Jones) and Vissers trys vs Fiji. For years its generally been accepted that Scotland have a pretty decent pack and their backline is pish. Well this is definitely not going to be the case next year and the year after that, not with the injection of talent we have seen and are still seeing.

I'm looking forward to seeing how visser does in the autumn.