My Welsh Team for the Argentina game if I was the coach...

First topic message reminder :

15: Halfpenny
14: Cuthbert
13: J Davies
12: Beck
11: North
10: Biggar
9: Gareth Davies
8: Faletau
7: Tipuric
6: Warburton
5: I Evans
4: AW Jones
3: Jarvis
2: Rees
1: Paul James

Thanks Morgannwg

I thought Gareth Davies has had some great games but he is not in the squad, and IMHO Knoyle has outplayed him this season. Also AWJ and Ian Evans under pressure are penalty machines albeit both give 100%

Davies provides the grunt and is a great ball carrier

But at least we only disagree on two players!!!....... now thats what I call progress

Davies should be in the squad ahead of Knoyle. L. Williams isn't much of a form pick either. AWJ and Charteris, the world cup pair could be the best. Evans starting is when the penalties starting counting up, he was my bench option. Davies has been average all season, except for the game against Leinster in which he was terrible. He's still a good ball carrier but has got lazy, doesn't do the work in the rucks and doesn't throw his weight around. He looked like a scared pup when Bakkies Botha squared up to him.

Ryan Jones has been in great form without the captaincy of Wales or the Os.

Other than for the odd stand in game I would rather him not have the captaincy back.

I know there's a lot on here advocating Hibbard, Evans and AWJ but the lineout against the Tigers was abysmal and AWJ is no leader IMO. I'd like to see Evans alongside Charteris at some stage with a forward pack like this:


8: Faletau
7: Warburton
6: Ryan J
5: I Evans
4: L Charteris
3: Rhys Gill
2: Hibbard
1: Paul James

Do you mean P James at TH and Rhys Gill at LH?

I like that team but think Tupric should definately be ahead of Warbs.

My only knit pick is I'd go for Rees over Hibbard - harsh on AWJ but good lock pairing.

Ruby,

I have said for ages that Charteris and EVans is our best 2nd row combo though Evans does seem to be a bit hot headed or reckless (intentional or not) which leads to his fair share of penalties.

I have never been convinced by Hibbard and can Gill play T/Head or would he be yet another loosie switched there?

Yes to the props switch Smirnoff, I don't disagree with the Tips thing but would start with Warbs as i still believe class is permanent. Tips will get his chance without a doubt and they are great options to have. AWJ needs a kick up the pants for me and look at Ianto and Charteris (who has improved) they could be a monster of a pairing in the lineout. Rees/Hibbard/Owens are all pretty equal to me and each one brings bring something different. Possibly start with Rees and Give Hibbard a blockbusting 20-25 mins. We need a solid platform first and foremost IMO so lets see what they come up with. For me Shingler, Tips and Warburton are all fantastic players but we need the power first and the guile second.

I am big fan of James and actually believe he is a beter technical scrummager than Jenkins but I am not keen on switching L/Heads everytime Jones is out.

I know we are in the poop when he is but I would rather us try and get a specialist T/Head in rather than switch a loosie.

Biggest disappointment for me over the past season or two is that Lewis Roberts hasn't been brought through.

Dai Young made his debut for Wales aged 19 years. Are we protecting Samson too much!

I like your reasoning.

I would say though that Argentina is a better game to start Tupric than against Oz/NZ to give him a shot at competing with Warbs for the bigger games. But as you say I expect Warbs to come back much stronger and find his form/consistency soon.

RubyGuby wrote:Dai Young made his debut for Wales aged 19 years. Are we protecting Samson too much!

Only one way to find out I guess Ruby.

I fully expect to see James at T/Head for the ABs and Oz but if the likes of Jarvis and Lee are not used in the other games at least then whats the ******** point of them being in the squad.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I am big fan of James and actually believe he is a beter technical scrummager than Jenkins but I am not keen on switching L/Heads everytime Jones is out.

I know we are in the poop when he is but I would rather us try and get a specialist T/Head in rather than switch a loosie.

Biggest disappointment for me over the past season or two is that Lewis Roberts hasn't been brought through.

Toitally agree with all your points, Roberts is a low risk and is probably stronger that the guys in the squad but we won't know. I have been watching Adam Jones this year and he has been well off the pace before this recent injury, I think he could have done with two more weeks recovery time to get fit.

Well that's actually a good question. But our paramount objective has to be to try our damnedest to get in that elusive top four by December.

Blooding youngsters and creating a stronger deeper squad is next years objective.

Trying to get in the top four heaps the pressure on the current squad, it will be challenging for them and hopefully they can rise to the pressure.

It will all be a good learning curve whether on the bench or just in the squad.

Yup I can't understand why Efion Roberts isn't in the squad/hasn't been in the squad more in the past

We're all focussing on the playing personnel, I'm not the greatest fan of Howley in charge and believe Gats would have given them that extra edge in Aus. I may be wrong, there's always a first time

Ruby,

Def with you there, I was never confident of Howley being brought in, was gutted by some of his decisions in Oz and now he's in charge for AI's (gats back for two big games) and the 6 Nations

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ruby,

Def with you there, I was never confident of Howley being brought in, was gutted by some of his decisions in Oz and now he's in charge for AI's (gats back for two big games) and the 6 Nations

My one positive is that Gats looked awful after his 1st GS and made poor selection decisions and had a 1 dimensional game plan and I wanted rid of him in 2010, but fast forward a year and everything clicked in to place (almost) and most things worked brilliantly. Same with Nige Davies, I thought he was really poor at the start, especially his subsititutions and he went on some epic losing streaks, but then the positives started coming, the promising youngsters and we started playing really well, inspite of the absence of a front 5 - and then even our props started playing really well until both the Thomas' got injured.

The same could be true of Howley, maybe...

Lets wait n see Smirnoff - I'd be happy with that.

What about the Irony here that whilst we are lambasting poor welsh coaches which appears to be endemic; 25% of the coaches in the Aviva are actually welsh!!!!!

I am not sure Howley can take all the blame for Aust poor selections and tactics as I believe he is Gatland's lapdog, I suspect Gatland had a direct line to Howley during selection and during the games as everything was consistent with Gatland's methods and thinking.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Do you mean P James at TH and Rhys Gill at LH?

I like that team but think Tupric should definately be ahead of Warbs.

My only knit pick is I'd go for Rees over Hibbard - harsh on AWJ but good lock pairing.

Really?.......... I would say too similar as players, both very tall and not the best at ball carrying, in fact they would appear to be ponderous off the first 3 metres, if Davies is off form then bring in a fast NO:5 to compliment Charteris success in the lineout in this respect whilst I think Shingler should be a shoe-in at 6, he would be a a much better foil to Charteris than Evans. Hibbard had a mare last weekend, Rees should be above him and Owen IMHO

Really failing to see how people can still be suggesting Priestland should be playing 10 for Wales. Never EVER seen a player more in need of a shift away from the big pressure in my life. Weird that people can write Biggar off for a few below par games in a scratch side against touring teams, but are willing to give Priestland the benefit of the doubt, considering his last decent game was in a world cup warm up against England.
Most of our internationals (bar the OSpreys players) look to be in worse form than ever, so selecting the same team again is probably going to have a very poor outcome. Some creative thinking - and picking on form - is what's required.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Do you mean P James at TH and Rhys Gill at LH?

I like that team but think Tupric should definately be ahead of Warbs.

My only knit pick is I'd go for Rees over Hibbard - harsh on AWJ but good lock pairing.

Really?.......... I would say too similar as players, both very tall and not the best at ball carrying, in fact they would appear to be ponderous off the first 3 metres, if Davies is off form then bring in a fast NO:5 to compliment Charteris success in the lineout in this respect whilst I think Shingler should be a shoe-in at 6, he would be a a much better foil to Charteris than Evans. Hibbard had a mare last weekend, Rees should be above him and Owen IMHO

FHF - you're usually quite astute, but Matthew Rees is 3 years past international class, and Hibbard has been outstanding all season. If he does not start at hooker, there is something seriously wrong.

Higher - really? you don't think Priestland had any good games in the WC? And don't think Rees is up to international hooker? even though he's been one of the better Welsh hookers this season.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yup I can't understand why Efion Roberts isn't in the squad/hasn't been in the squad more in the past

SP

Has he been in the squad at all?

I think that most of that has been a bit on the lardy side of what is considered sporting...

Even for a prop

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Higher - really? you don't think Priestland had any good games in the WC? And don't think Rees is up to international hooker? even though he's been one of the better Welsh hookers this season.

No, I don't. I think rattling the woodwork from in front of the posts a few times was the beginning of his slide. I absolutely think he has the ability to be a top class international, but on current showing he's nowhere near good enough. His goal kicking was the initial problem, and by the end of the 1st game against SA, Hook had taken over.
The 6 nations continued his downturn, and again he wasn't given the kicking duties agian after hitting the posts from 20m out, directly in front against Ireland.
I'm not being unkind, if there was noone else playing any better and I was simply sniping at him, calling him rubbish etc, then that would be pretty stupid, but Dan Biggar is in great form, and playing with confidence. Anyone can throw an intercept pass whilst chasing a game, Priestland kicked a backwards up and under on Friday, which was the cherry on a pretty dismal 6 month cake for me.
Again, I have to emphasize that Proestland has the ability, but at the minute it's not working for him. Look at Ryan Jones circa 2009/2010, noone had any qulams about dropping him, and look at the player he is today.
For my money, we lose with Priestland at 10.
Rees on the bench, Hibbard head and shoulders above him this season. He's worked on his deficiencies, and is a different player.

Yes, I'm a raging Ospreys fan, but Samson Lee, Aaron Shingler, Gareth Davies, Scott Williams, Lee Halfpenny, George North and Liam Williams would make my starting 15 also.

Incidently:

1. Bevington
2. Hibbard
3. Lee
4. AWJ
5. Ian Evans
6. Shingler
7. Tipuric
8. Ryan Jones
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. Halfpenny
12. Beck
13. JD
14, Cuthbert
15. Liam Williams

Higher_Ground wrote:Incidently:

1. Bevington
2. Hibbard
3. Lee
4. AWJ
5. Ian Evans
6. Shingler
7. Tipuric
8. Ryan Jones
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. Halfpenny
12. Beck
13. JD
14, Cuthbert
15. Liam Williams

Are you seriously suggesting

1. Dropping Wales only consistant kicker 1/2p and one who can and is scoring tries for fun
2. Dismantling the best centre partnership JD and JR for a player who is nowhere near consistent this season Beck
3. Dropping North!!....your best player in Wales
4. Beck instead of Roberts who is looking pretty damn good in such a short period of games
5. Phillips is having a dire season in France
6. Ian "pen machine" Evans and not Charteris who is absolutely on fire in France
7. Bevington not James!
8. Hibbard who had a mare last week as did AWJ and the rest of the Os lineout

I am assuming that you are selecting your side just for the Pumas game!

1. Not dropping Halfpenny, just moving him to the wing.
2. Jamie Roberts, for whatever reason hasn't got out of 2nd gear all season, I see it as an unspectacular pairing with JD, Beck has a lot more to offer at 12, and after a slow start to the season, is getting back to form.
3. Up until this week, North hadn't been all that impressive? This was a very marginal call for me, and I would have put him on the bench, he would make a big impact.
4. See 2.
5. I know, but who else would you pick?? There is no choice.
6. Haven't seen any of Charteris, Ian Evans isn't giving away as many penalties, and he works well with AWJ, as well as being good in his own right.
7. Bevington is far more acomplished in the loose, has greater pace, and doesn't lose out too badly in the scrummaging department. James goes to ground immediately upon receiving the ball.
8. Hibbard is genuinely the only player in the squad who has been consistently head and shoulders above his nearest rival for the shirt. This is actually the easiest decision to make out of all of them.

We lost a lot of games with the lineup you are suggesting when they were all on a high and in form, God only knows what will happen to us if they put them out again.

Charteris will be unavailable for Argentina, but available for Australia. That was the deal. So, the 2nd row partnership for our first game is likely to be AWJ and Evans.

Also, James really isn't good at TH. Leave him at LH and blood Jarvis/Lee. It's now or never. Bevington isn't playing well enough and never really has, for me.

Higher_Ground wrote:1. Not dropping Halfpenny, just moving him to the wing.
2. Jamie Roberts, for whatever reason hasn't got out of 2nd gear all season, I see it as an unspectacular pairing with JD, Beck has a lot more to offer at 12, and after a slow start to the season, is getting back to form.
3. Up until this week, North hadn't been all that impressive? This was a very marginal call for me, and I would have put him on the bench, he would make a big impact.
4. See 2.
5. I know, but who else would you pick?? There is no choice.
6. Haven't seen any of Charteris, Ian Evans isn't giving away as many penalties, and he works well with AWJ, as well as being good in his own right.
7. Bevington is far more acomplished in the loose, has greater pace, and doesn't lose out too badly in the scrummaging department. James goes to ground immediately upon receiving the ball.
8. Hibbard is genuinely the only player in the squad who has been consistently head and shoulders above his nearest rival for the shirt. This is actually the easiest decision to make out of all of them.

We lost a lot of games with the lineup you are suggesting when they were all on a high and in form, God only knows what will happen to us if they put them out again.

OK...........
Well we will have to agree to disagree............ I can only say what I have seen of the welsh regions this season. Ian has been penalised in nearly every game he has played sin binned and even red carded this term. Beck is nowhere near Roberts both in defence or attack at the moment, Hibbard had an absolute mare last weekend against quality opposition, in fact the entire front five of Bevington, Hibbard, A Jones, A-W Jones, Evans were destroyed against a Leicester pack which havent been operating that well this season The Pumas will be a gear up again!!, amazingly Jon Thomas had a very good game and Ryan Jones / Tuperic were superb on the flanks,

It will be a massive injustice if Ryan Jones is not selected to start at 8 or 6 for Wales in the AIs

Morgannwg wrote:Charteris will be unavailable for Argentina, but available for Australia. That was the deal. So, the 2nd row partnership for our first game is likely to be AWJ and Evans.

Also, James really isn't good at TH. Leave him at LH and blood Jarvis/Lee. It's now or never. Bevington isn't playing well enough and never really has, for me.

Have to agree with you here Mogs

thebluesmancometh wrote:When it comes to Int rugby we know Warbs can provide

Yes, when he's at his best. When was he last at his best?

Let's be clear: he wasn't selected in this squad as a blindside, so seeing as we have genuine blindsides in the squad, we should be looking at them. Bedford's right, if Sam's not the best openside available, he should be on the bench. He's not so important to us that we have to find a place for him.

But Howley's forced his own hand by naming Sam as squad captain.

Come on Fhf, Leicester didn't come close to destroying the Ospreys pack, they were leading for a good portion of the game, and their Leicester's trys had little to do with forward dominance. Look at the Rabo final last year for an example of how Poite has no idea about how to ref a scrum.
Hibbard might have had a bad game on the weekend., but it's worth remembering that the Ospreys came away with a bonus point win.
Roberts is quality, but doesn't have any form, I'd rather spice it up and put Beck in there, like I said before, the current lineup seems to have run out of steam, and I think we need to try something new. A settled losing team isn't an advantage. I agree about Ryan Jones, he has to start.

HG - not meaning to sound harsh but Beck is a trunstyle in defence, he seems to fall for the dummy 9 times out of 10 too. So yes he does offer something extra in attack, but his lack of defence outweights that IMO.

Perhaps Scarlets, but I haven't noticed him being weak in defense particularly. They are all very marginal calls, I just don't see any of the teams we're going to be coming up against being too bothered about Roberts coming at them.
It's all academic anyway I fear. As long as they have air in their lungs it will be Priestland - Roberts - Davies. Which I will get behind 100%

Ryan Jones could be out apparently - been sent back to Wales for assessment with shoulder injury but could still make the series.

But blow if he's out, and would more likely pave the way for a Warbs/Tipuric one-two, which I think is a mistake as we need an out and out 6, and part of the reason our backrow looked so good last year was because of Lydiates great work at 6.

If Ryan's out, I'd have Shingler at 6.

Ryan is in good form but we have some good back up in Shingler, also was surprised at how well McCusker played last weekend.

Lets hope Ryan pulls through ok

HG
Good to read that you have some sound reasoning for your selections, but I disagree that Hibbard (accuracy and stamina) or Beck (appalling defence) are the go to guys in their position, I think Roberts only back for what two or three games has played well in a very poor Blues side he has a great understanding with Jon Davies, also Scott Williams has a better defence and is has effective in defence.

I dont think Priestland will start as he has been way off the pace both in kicking and in his inventive play, Biggar is better in all departments at the moment, and I would even consider Hook there instead of RP. I think a Ryan/Knoyle/Biggar is quite an abrasive and direct axis coming off the scrum and they can certainly draw men in for Roberts to barnstorm runs and punch holes in the midfield

Maes
I thought McCusker has had a very good season at 8 and won't let you guys down.

I don't think McCusker is a scratch on Ryan, and think Shingler while very good, is also behind Ryan. Also considering Howley seems to be likely to play Warburton, then I can't see Howley choosing Shingler over a Tupric/Warbs partnership.

McCusker isn't international class for me. Shingler IMO is pure class but its about the balance of the backrow and we are facing a formidable pack here. Toby, Ryan and Warbs for me with Shingler slotting in for Ryan which might make us a little lightweight there.

I agree Ruby that's the selection for me (my one caveate is that I feel if McGog finds his pre-injury form then I think he can be international class but not to Lydiate/Ryan's standard)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I agree Ruby that's the selection for me (my one caveate is that I feel if McGog finds his pre-injury form then I think he can be international class but not to Lydiate/Ryan's standard)

How any of you can pick Warburton over Tipuric is beyond me.

Fhf, that sounds good to me, I just don't want to see Jamie Roberts crash-balling himself into a shoulder injury for three games before parachuting Beck in to face New Zealand, because you KNOW that's what's gonna happen!
I think you're off the Mark with Hibbard though, his conditioning is excellent now, and he's as accurate as anyone else we have. Which is relative.

Whose said they'd pick Warbs over Tipuric?

Well you did, for starters.

TBH i'd still have Warbs in the side. Harsh on Tips as he's playing well and all but I'd rather Warbs in the side because if he finds his form he will be a crucial part in beating a SH side this autumn. If he doesn't deliver against Argentina and NZ, Tips get's his chance for me against OZ.

Warbs Phillips Priestland Foxy Jamie Cuthbert North 1/2p are bankers for the first game barring injury IMO

That's who Howley'll pick, Ruby.