My Welsh Team for the Argentina game if I was the coach...

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15: Halfpenny
14: Cuthbert
13: J Davies
12: Beck
11: North
10: Biggar
9: Gareth Davies
8: Faletau
7: Tipuric
6: Warburton
5: I Evans
4: AW Jones
3: Jarvis
2: Rees
1: Paul James

1. Gethin
2. Hibbard
3. James
4. Ian Evans
5. AWJ
6. Ryan Jones
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Gill
17. Rees
18. Lee
19. Shingler
20. G Davies
21. Hook
22. Liam Williams




Posts: 1769
Join date: 2011-06-01

Who is possibly or definitely out for the first match ?

Deffo
Adam Jones and Dan Lydiate

Poss
JD2

RubyGuby wrote:1. Gethin
2. Hibbard
3. James
4. Ian Evans
5. AWJ
6. Ryan Jones
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Gill
17. Rees
18. Lee
19. Shingler
20. G Davies
21. Hook
22. Liam Williams




Posts: 1769
Join date: 2011-06-01

Ruby,

Whatever squad is named cant see ther being 3 front rowers on the bench in a 22 man squad.

That's what you get when you copy and paste Bedford

Why is Rhys Gill's name hardly getting a mention. Never understood this one. He had a stormer v Ireland last year and was then largely ignored. Do we need to get him playing for a Region mate as I think the guy is as good as anything we've got and the likes of Scott Andrews make Yapp look a beast!!!!!

He signed for saracens last year, had the opportunity to go to a region but either none could afford him, didn't want him or he was made a better offer. Good player. James and Gethin are likely still ahead of him.

Gill is exactly the sort of player we need to attract to the Regions - He might be behind James and Gethin but IMO he's actually better than both of them now and offers a better balance all round for a prop.

I am sure the Blues were linked with Gill to replace Jenkins but obviously nothing came of it. As Ruby mentioned he had a stormer last season against Ireland and looked set to keep place but again nothing happened.

Us Dragons are in desperate need of top notch front rowers but couldn't afford him.

Can he play T/Head, reason for asking is that with limited numbers in a squad and James and Jenkins' capability to switch to the tight if need be then he's always going to be up against it selection wise when all 3 are fit.

I think the WRU really need to think about doing what has apparently been done in Ireland, and think about maybe helping the regions with a one off signing - say Gill to the Blues to help them become much more competitive in the HEC, a good NWQ prop/lock to the Dragons, so they have a platform to build their exciting youngsters around, and maybe an Efion Roberts (if he'd play down south) for the Scarlets - this could help the regions become really competitive in Europe/Rabo, bring a few key Welsh players back into Wales, bring in better crowds and more money and get some excitement going - a 2 year contract shouldn't be too much as a one-off...

wayne wrote:I know this will not be agreed to, but why do the Dragons get £1.55 million for player release to the Welsh International Squad when they supply so few players to it. The acadamies have now been going under the auspices of the WRU for about 5 years, I believe give it another 2 or 3 years and at the end of each season this money should be shared by the number of players each supplies in total on a sliding scale as they are selected to a) the team b) the squad. This might get all of the regions to really invest in youth for their own and in the national interest

But do you look at it as the Dragons have only 2 current Welsh int players in their squad so deserve less money? - but then it could be that the only reason they haven't got more Welsh int players in their squad is because they haven't got enough money to hold onto them once their capped. Or do you look at it as the number of internationals their are in the squad - in which case the Ospreys would get loads of money as they'd have A Jones, D Jones, Hibbert, Bevington, Gough, Evans, Jon Thomas ect in their squad.

Or do you look at how many players came through the academies and are now Welsh internationals - in which case the Dragons can count Lydiate, Faletau & Tovey, while the Blues could count B Davies, Warbs, L Williams, Cuthbert & Roberts.

Or do you look at which club the players were at when they made their international breakthrough - so Charteris could be counted with the Dragons and Halfpenny would be counted towards the Blues.

Though you'd also need to consider that, if the academies are WRU run, then how much blame is there on the regions and/or on the WRU - particularly relevant in the Dragons case as the WRU own half of them as a sleeping partner who doesn't input anything.

Unfortunately I honestly don't think the WRU give a flying monkeys about the Regions whilst the National team is doing well and the Stadium is being filled.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Unfortunately I honestly don't think the WRU give a flying monkeys about the Regions whilst the National team is doing well and the Stadium is being filled.

I disagree with that Bedford but understand your frustration - it will get resolved

bedord

You are sadly right, the MS is the money maker, the regions can all go under for what the WRU gives a monkeys!!!

I disagree with that Bluesman but understand your frustration - it will get resolved [/quote]

thebluesmancometh wrote:bedord

You are sadly right, the MS is the money maker, the regions can all go under for what the WRU gives a monkeys!!!

No they don't want us to go under, just fail to aford the stars to they have to play elsewhere, and we have to work extra hard to bring through younger players, who can be poached, forcing us to find even more talented youth players willing to play for penuts.

I massively rate Gareth Davies. He is rapid and on fire.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:bedord

You are sadly right, the MS is the money maker, the regions can all go under for what the WRU gives a monkeys!!!

No they don't want us to go under, just fail to aford the stars to they have to play elsewhere, and we have to work extra hard to bring through younger players, who can be poached, forcing us to find even more talented youth players willing to play for penuts.

Keep saying the same SS.

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that anyone at the WRU wants the regions to fold. It would set Wales back two decades.

But they do want the regions under greater control while not wanting to invest the massive amount of money needed to take over ownership of them

If they have the interests of the Regions at heart why do they constantly arrange the 4th AI fixture a week before the Xmas round of HC matches?

Because they know the stadium will be full and they will make a mint out of it, its certainly not arranged to help the Regions prepare for the HC matches.

Maybe thats what Wales needs MM.

But you have to see it from the regions side, The WRU are much more interested in boasting profits, announcing how little debt they are in and blowing their own hornes than actually helping the regions.

Look at the current advertising campaign 'our land, our way' It's a decleration that rugby has returned to Wales, it shows how RP can kick over bridges, North can run with trees on his back, and 1/2p can run alongside horses!!!

Surely part of that budget (which must be huge for prime time ad space) couldve been used to aid regional promotion, or maybe help with the central contract issue without taking all control over players while revoking the funding!!

The WRU care about a core 40/50 players only, they care less about the depth of quality in Wales or they wouldn't be letting the prem go to rot.

bedfordwelsh wrote:If they have the interests of the Regions at heart why do they constantly arrange the 4th AI fixture a week before the Xmas round of HC matches?
Because they know the stadium will be full and they will make a mint out of it, its certainly not arranged to help the Regions prepare for the HC matches.

It gets worse this season, there is (if things don't change) a potential 1st v 2nd place in the league being played, where the Scarlets have a shot agoing top, that will be played with a huge number of the Scarlets first choice players missing!

That's a good point Bluesman - everyone knows about the Wales ints - they go on every year and are usually sold out - as you say instead of these (stupid) adverts, they should really have included some with players like North, Halfpenny, Lydiate, AWJ/Biggar in their regional kits doing 'inspiring' stuff (meh) with a list of up and coming home regional games - with maybe an offer (attend 3 regional games and get x amount off your Wales ticket vs New Zealand...

Though I would debate that the WRU are letting the Prem go to rot, when they've restructered and strengthened it.

Ah but SS the stadium will be full and the money register on overtime soi all is ok

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:If they have the interests of the Regions at heart why do they constantly arrange the 4th AI fixture a week before the Xmas round of HC matches?
Because they know the stadium will be full and they will make a mint out of it, its certainly not arranged to help the Regions prepare for the HC matches.

It gets worse this season, there is (if things don't change) a potential 1st v 2nd place in the league being played, where the Scarlets have a shot agoing top, that will be played with a huge number of the Scarlets first choice players missing!

Ahh nuts!!! I didn't realise that, and that will be on top of being hamstrung for the HEC match...

I (unfortunately) rest my case

Priest - yeah Ulster get to play us when we are missing a full back line, again, but it is at PYS, so it is not so bad.

Personally I do think the WRU would love to have four fully amature regions all feilding under 25 sides, and then anyone who awas any good moving to play in the french or english leagues. After all there would be more talent then, it would cost less, and the advertising for the international side would be far better as they could say "HEC winning fullback Leigh Halfpenny" or "Toullouse backrower Danny Lydiate" which would pull more of the pink hat/suit bridage into the MS.

Smirnoff

Restructured yes, but strengthened???

The prem is used as an academy player warming station, it provides no support to the national team so therefore is not funded to where it should be.

IMHO the prem should be prof, maybe only the teams who can afford to be prof at first, but the idea should be to be fully prof and then the regional teams would be stuffed full of good players from the bottom up.

I disagree SS - I think the WRU's dream is to have 4 fully professional sides of could quality Welsh youngsters, where the cream (ie the Welsh international squad players) are taken off so the WRU can train them they way they want, then they'd be 'loaned' back to the region to get gametime and stay fresh, but would be available for every single Welsh international game.

It's access and control they want, which they won't have if players move abroad - and at the same time they want to expand their 'market' (ie Wales based rugby fans) and that means keeping them primed with regional rugby between internationals...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But they do want the regions under greater control while not wanting to invest the massive amount of money needed to take over ownership of them

Regions said they could run on a £3.5m wage cap. That was their idea. If they can then why would they need more money.

Smirnoff

The average regional fan is certainly not the average Wales fan though!!!

I think the WRU want full control of the players too, but are unwilling to pay anymore than they are now, so swapping the 6 mill funding for the same in central contracts benefits them and them alone.

The next best option after this is to allow the internationals to leave Wales have restricted acces to them, but the kicker is that they don't have to pay them a penny... WRU seem pretty happy with that kicker IMHO!!!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I disagree SS - I think the WRU's dream is to have 4 fully professional sides of could quality Welsh youngsters, where the cream (ie the Welsh international squad players) are taken off so the WRU can train them they way they want, then they'd be 'loaned' back to the region to get gametime and stay fresh, but would be available for every single Welsh international game.

It's access and control they want, which they won't have if players move abroad - and at the same time they want to expand their 'market' (ie Wales based rugby fans) and that means keeping them primed with regional rugby between internationals...

Only fully professional if it is self suficient, and they can avoid having to put money into it. And yeah I guess your right they would probably rather a cricket style system where the player plays more for the E(&W)CB than the county

thebluesmancometh wrote:Smirnoff

Restructured yes, but strengthened???

The prem is used as an academy player warming station, it provides no support to the national team so therefore is not funded to where it should be.

IMHO the prem should be prof, maybe only the teams who can afford to be prof at first, but the idea should be to be fully prof and then the regional teams would be stuffed full of good players from the bottom up.

Well it has viable clubs in it now, without clubs folding/going into administration/bankruptcy/needing bail outs every 5 minutes.

And it does support the National team, as it prepares players to play in the regional strucutre (ie the level above them), and provides a wider player base, these players then can rise through the regional strucutre and play in the national team, which has happened within one season a few times.

You've stated you want a fully professional prem (like many old club diehards - which I know you're not, and many other fans) yet I've yet to see you provide any proof of how this would be viable when we're struggling with 4 regions. Other than your belief that there's business men somewhere out there who will invest and your other belief that Wales' top and medium players will stay in Wales on (estimate) 60% wages decreases to play for sides with £1.2m budgets (between a third and a half of what the regions currently get).

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe thats what Wales needs MM.

But you have to see it from the regions side, The WRU are much more interested in boasting profits, announcing how little debt they are in and blowing their own hornes than actually helping the regions.

Look at the current advertising campaign 'our land, our way' It's a decleration that rugby has returned to Wales, it shows how RP can kick over bridges, North can run with trees on his back, and 1/2p can run alongside horses!!!

Surely part of that budget (which must be huge for prime time ad space) couldve been used to aid regional promotion, or maybe help with the central contract issue without taking all control over players while revoking the funding!!

The WRU care about a core 40/50 players only, they care less about the depth of quality in Wales or they wouldn't be letting the prem go to rot.

Have you really honestly not got a clue how much the WRU are already doing for the regions, for rugby below the regions, for youth and college rugby, for schools rugby and more importantly can you not see what a hugely positive effect it has had in turning round the huge mess Wales was in fifteen years ago...?

Compared to the lack of foresight and investment in the game by the WRU in the seventies, eighties and ninties they modern WRU are bloody miracle workers.

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But they do want the regions under greater control while not wanting to invest the massive amount of money needed to take over ownership of them

Regions said they could run on a £3.5m wage cap. That was their idea. If they can then why would they need more money.

Soz I think you misunderstand me - I meant that the WRU want full control of regional players/the regions without actually buying the regions. I didn't mean give the regions more money, I meant buy the regions OFF the benefactors (ie WRU owned regions like in Ireland).

thebluesmancometh wrote:Smirnoff

The average regional fan is certainly not the average Wales fan though!!!

I think the WRU want full control of the players too, but are unwilling to pay anymore than they are now, so swapping the 6 mill funding for the same in central contracts benefits them and them alone.

I couldn't agree more (on both points)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But they do want the regions under greater control while not wanting to invest the massive amount of money needed to take over ownership of them

Regions said they could run on a £3.5m wage cap. That was their idea. If they can then why would they need more money.

Soz I think you misunderstand me - I meant that the WRU want full control of regional players/the regions without actually buying the regions. I didn't mean give the regions more money, I meant buy the regions OFF the benefactors (ie WRU owned regions like in Ireland).

I think that bridge was investigated before the inception of the regions and it may be too late to go back now. At the time there was no way the WRU could have afforded it. They were almost in receivership.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Smirnoff

The average regional fan is certainly not the average Wales fan though!!!

I think the WRU want full control of the players too, but are unwilling to pay anymore than they are now, so swapping the 6 mill funding for the same in central contracts benefits them and them alone.

I couldn't agree more (on both points)

At least they are still in discussion trying to work out an amicable and affordable way of going forward, keeping top players as well as keeping the regions on a sustainable, hopefully profitable path.

The debate on central contracting or similar alternatives has only just started.

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But they do want the regions under greater control while not wanting to invest the massive amount of money needed to take over ownership of them

Regions said they could run on a £3.5m wage cap. That was their idea. If they can then why would they need more money.

Soz I think you misunderstand me - I meant that the WRU want full control of regional players/the regions without actually buying the regions. I didn't mean give the regions more money, I meant buy the regions OFF the benefactors (ie WRU owned regions like in Ireland).

I think that bridge was investigated before the inception of the regions and it may be too late to go back now. At the time there was no way the WRU could have afforded it. They were almost in receivership.

Even now they couldn't afford it. Especially when you consider how much debt the regions are in.

I agree, there was no way they could have afforded it back then, and it would be very difficult to implement right now, and I don't think it will happen, or there are any strong arguments for it to happen.

But I do think the WRU want all the control that ownership would bring (ie access ect) but without actually giving any more money than they are now.

MM

Having been an employee, and volunteer I know exactly what the WRU do at all levels... LOOK AFTER THE WRU!!!!

The academy systems are there to provide the top quality player for the regions, which in turn gives them the platform for international rugby, which in turn provides the MS cashcow the platform to play too many tests, outside of the int window, and suck every penny from the public.

The WRU has to keep the regions afloat, and have to keep the prem alive so it does the absolute minimum it has to!!!

As long as a core group of players is attracting 80,000 people 7/8 times a year and a further 250,000 willing to spend in the shop a year they are happy!!!

Have you been to a Tesco or Asda recently? The machine WRU is in full flow, designing their own sections and ploughing them full of merchandise, obviously to pump this profit back to the regions to help them stay as competitive they have been this season ...

Don't get me wrong the money men at the regions arent innocent and are just as much to blame as the mess we are in today (and trust me we are in a mess) but the WRU arent looking after the sport in wales, the sport in wales at all levels but the top is dying!!

BMC

The positive difference for Welsh rugby at all levels because of the good work of the WRU over the last ten years is remarkable compared to the lack of it before.

They are not perfect, they made mistakes but what they are doing at all levels is very very good and it is making a huge difference.

Measure it on how well Wales have done in the last decade compared to the two before. Measure it by the fact they are now making a profit where as ten years ago they were close to collapsing as an organisation due to poor financial leadership.

They have saved Welsh rugby from swimming in the doldrums of the world game.

MM

I get your points mate, they have made a lot of money. But is that the WRU or the acceptance of professionalism, and the realisation that the money men rule everything???

Which is exactly what is part of the problem, the WRU is now a business, and as a business cares little about the regional business's.

Would you say that rugby in wales (on all levels not just international) is blossoming or struggling?

I see the welsh public as falling out of love with the sport and a few poor tournaments will see the MS deserted.

On the other hand the FAW are developing football very cleverly from the bottom up, and I only see the game growing in wales.

I have the nightmare that rugby is displaced by football in Wales (of which we are unprecidently close to) Being so small I don't think there is room for 2 succesfull sports!!

Maes - my general complaint about the WRU is that they forced regionalism upon the real rugby following public (ntot he pink hats and suits), and then they force the Anglo-Welsh upon us. We seemed to accept these, so they force the extra AI upon us. The real rugby fans (again not the pink hat/suits) are getting more and more forced upon them, and are getting to see less and less quality as the WRU are either playing extra matches or injuring the players. And the Pink hats and Suits are running the bleeding game into the ground by paying throught he nose to go an get p1$t and be able to say I was there.

I know a lad with a box for the all-black game who didn't even know that the all-blacks were that good. He was just joining in witha group going because it should be a good night on the pop in Cardiff.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes - my general complaint about the WRU is that they forced regionalism upon the real rugby following public (ntot he pink hats and suits), and then they force the Anglo-Welsh upon us. We seemed to accept these, so they force the extra AI upon us. The real rugby fans (again not the pink hat/suits) are getting more and more forced upon them, and are getting to see less and less quality as the WRU are either playing extra matches or injuring the players. And the Pink hats and Suits are running the bleeding game into the ground by paying throught he nose to go an get p1$t and be able to say I was there.

I know a lad with a box for the all-black game who didn't even know that the all-blacks were that good. He was just joining in witha group going because it should be a good night on the pop in Cardiff.

SS part of that is part n parcel of the modern target audience of any professional sport. England play four internationals this autumn same as Wales, Australia played 17 internationals last year, same as Wales. We are not the exception and as the International game funds the regional, club and lower tiers it has to be a profitable success.

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM

I get your points mate, they have made a lot of money.

No i did not say that.

That is the fifth time you have suggested something i have not said this week.

My point is the work the WRU have done in Wales at all levels is better than ever before, schools, colleges, clubs and regions are in a healthier state than they have ever been in Wales because of the good direction of the WRU. More grants are available, coaches encouraged, activities organised the game is growing again not disappearing as it was in the 80s and 90s.

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes - my general complaint about the WRU is that they forced regionalism upon the real rugby following public (ntot he pink hats and suits), and then they force the Anglo-Welsh upon us. We seemed to accept these, so they force the extra AI upon us. The real rugby fans (again not the pink hat/suits) are getting more and more forced upon them, and are getting to see less and less quality as the WRU are either playing extra matches or injuring the players. And the Pink hats and Suits are running the bleeding game into the ground by paying throught he nose to go an get p1$t and be able to say I was there.

I know a lad with a box for the all-black game who didn't even know that the all-blacks were that good. He was just joining in witha group going because it should be a good night on the pop in Cardiff.

SS part of that is part n parcel of the modern target audience of any professional sport. England play four internationals this autumn same as Wales, Australia played 17 internationals last year, same as Wales. We are not the exception and as the International game funds the regional, club and lower tiers it has to be a profitable success.

We are the acception, because these people are putting intot he coffers at club (regional/provincal/super club) level else where, but with us they rock up to the events at the MS but don't even know where the regions are based or where they play, or who plays for what region.

maestegmafia wrote:BMC

The positive difference for Welsh rugby at all levels because of the good work of the WRU over the last ten years is remarkable compared to the lack of it before.

They are not perfect, they made mistakes but what they are doing at all levels is very very good and it is making a huge difference.

Measure it on how well Wales have done in the last decade compared to the two before. Measure it by the fact they are now making a profit where as ten years ago they were close to collapsing as an organisation due to poor financial leadership.

They have saved Welsh rugby from swimming in the doldrums of the world game.

The WRU recruited Gatland and Edwards (in fairness, that was good) and have paid big chunks off the commercial mortgage (because Barclays credit risk team told them to).

Other than that, all they've done since 2005 is tinker around and let things bumble along, when they should have used the Grand Slam success goodwill (and cash) to bring everyone together. We're too small a rugby nation for this club v region v national team squabbling to still be holding us back.

The problem is that the top men at the WRU are good administrators and pen pushers. They are not visionary leaders and they are not rugby men. There is no plan to improve things because they don't know what to do.

For them it's; keep Gatland here, keep paying Barclays, bury heads in the turf and hope any problems go away.

Measure it by the fact they are now making a profit

^^^ How is that not that the WRU are making money?!?!!?!? That is your direct quote!!! Thats the 5th time youve accused me of miquoting you when all Ive done is actually quoted you!!!

Firstly of course theyre encouraging coaches, the 2 day courses cost £200 per head and were worked out as costing the WRU £14 per head!!!

The game in the 90's had nearly twice as many people involved (can't be accurate but from the paper I read) in all different roles!!!

My point is todays communication, links, communities are run and co ordinated much easier because of mobile phones, the internet, the amount of cars available to the public etc...

The game has evolved with british culture and technology, lets not pretend the WRU has done this, it's like the arguments that todays players are better, it means absolute jot!!!!

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm not Welsh, but from an outsider's perspective:

Halfpenny (k)
Cuthbert
Davies
Roberts
North
Priestland
Peel/Davies
Jones (c)
Tipuric
Shingler
Charteris
Evans
Lee
Rees
Gill

James, Owens, Jarvis, AWJ, Warburton, Davies/Phillips, Biggar, Williams

I'm not Welsh too...... hence from an outsiders viewpoint

15. Halfpenny (Just superb with boot and has been scoring tries this season, defence is suspect tho)
14. Cuthbert
11. North

13. J Davies (best midfield combo by far)
12. J Roberts

10. Biggar
9. Knoyle

8. Ryan Jones (C)
7. Warburton (can't play him at 6 surely)
6. Shingler (his speed is phenominal)

5. Charteris (best lock by a country mile)
4. Davies (compliments Charteris style superbly)

3. Jarvis
2. Rees
1. James

16. Lee
17. Owen
18. Jenkins
19. AWJ
20. Faletau
21. Phillips
22. Hook
23. L Williams

FHF, your side is pretty decent. Apart from Knoyle and B Davies. Neither of which should be anywhere near the squad imo.