Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[MrsP]

Lads,



You're letting the side down badly here!!!

[rodders]

Yes...as they will be in France

Well that should give the Scots an advantage I suppose .....

[Submachine]

1. Healy 16. Kilcoyne
2. Strauss 17. Cronin
3. Bent 18. Ross
4. McCarthy 19. Ryan
5. DOC
If you have McCarthy or Ryan in the team I think you need DOC’s ballast at the scrum6. Henderson 20. POM
Marginal call but I feel POM hasn’t shown enough at this level yet7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan 21. Marshall
10. Sexton 22. Jackson
Murray has time on his side but needs to work on the basics. With Sexton, Jackson, Madigan and Keatley around I think ROG can safely hang up the boots. I think the two Ulster boys on the bench could really change it up if they were brought on together.
11. Gilroy 23. McFadden
12. Marshall
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Zebo

We haven’t got the big bruising backs that the likes of Wales can call on but looking at that backline there is bags of pace there. I still think this team would be beaten as we haven’t got the breakdown skills of Darcy or O’Driscoll in there. For this backline to really fire we would need Madigan at 10, an openside with real pace and a Ferris or SOB at 6 to be the next man there.

[dublin_dave]

northern hemisphere rugby with the exception of france is in dire place.

At least the teams in the Southern Hemisphere with the exception of South Africa are actually good to watch and add some much needed excitement to the low risk kick filled tedium that is international rugby.

Even when Argentina play a conservative game plan they play it with manic physicality, intensity and passion. South Africa to be fair are decimated by injuries. When they get close to their first choice backline on the field they will be a serious team if they let them lose. use their pack to crush teams up front then spin it wide

England and Ireland are stuck in the absolute dark ages in terms of playing style but have the personnel to be far better. Both lack a coaching set up with the vision to move them forward. Wales are big strong fast and not much else. The last grand slam came in the worst 6 nations i have ever seen. They have been terrible v sth hemisphere teams.

rant over. ireland by 10 on saturday : )

[Standulstermen]

I would go with that team submachine. Don't think it will be picked but I would like to see it.

[Argie fan]

northern hemisphere rugby with the exception of france is in dire place.

At least the teams in the Southern Hemisphere with the exception of South Africa are actually good to watch and add some much needed excitement to the low risk kick filled tedium that is international rugby.

Even when Argentina play a conservative game plan they play it with manic physicality, intensity and passion. South Africa to be fair are decimated by injuries. When they get close to their first choice backline on the field they will be a serious team if they let them lose. use their pack to crush teams up front then spin it wide

England and Ireland are stuck in the absolute dark ages in terms of playing style but have the personnel to be far better. Both lack a coaching set up with the vision to move them forward. Wales are big strong fast and not much else. The last grand slam came in the worst 6 nations i have ever seen. They have been terrible v sth hemisphere teams.

rant over. ireland by 10 on saturday : )

Strange logic.

[Argie fan]

Ireland Argentina, history.

Played: 12
Won by Ireland: 7
Won by Argentina: 5
Drawn: 0

Interestingly, Argentina never won in Dublin.

[ME-109]

northern hemisphere rugby with the exception of france is in dire place.

At least the teams in the Southern Hemisphere with the exception of South Africa are actually good to watch and add some much needed excitement to the low risk kick filled tedium that is international rugby.

Even when Argentina play a conservative game plan they play it with manic physicality, intensity and passion. South Africa to be fair are decimated by injuries. When they get close to their first choice backline on the field they will be a serious team if they let them lose. use their pack to crush teams up front then spin it wide

England and Ireland are stuck in the absolute dark ages in terms of playing style but have the personnel to be far better. Both lack a coaching set up with the vision to move them forward. Wales are big strong fast and not much else. The last grand slam came in the worst 6 nations i have ever seen. They have been terrible v sth hemisphere teams.

rant over. ireland by 10 on saturday : )

Strange logic.

You will see stranger logic by the time next saturday comes.

[dublin_dave]

argie fan this is the ireland rugby team we are talking about. logic usually does not come into it

i will attempt to offer some however

argentina are coming off a grueling season and this may be one game to far. we have no form of note or a strong attacking game but despite this we are defensively strong have an improving set piece and have enough good players to beat argentina if they show even a glimpse or two of quality in attack then defend for their lives

[SecretFly]

argie fan this is the ireland rugby team we are talking about. logic usually does not come into it

i will attempt to offer some however

argentina are coming off a grueling season and this may be one game to far. we have no form of note or a strong attacking game but despite this we are defensively strong have an improving set piece and have enough good players to beat argentina if they show even a glimpse or two of quality in attack then defend for their lives

Uh oh! - that's our current gameplan from hell. I think we should think up something else really.

[dublin_dave]

yes but it works intermittently : )

are we due a "big" win. I reckon so

[rodders]

We had our big wins in Paris, Wellington and Dublin 2 weeks ago...we just forgot to actually win......

[Argie fan]

Argentina never won in Dublin, but after TRC experience I bet for Argentina's win

[dublin_dave]

hahaha fair point rodders.

us irish love gloating about a good old battling draw.

i suppose its better than moral victories known as defeats to the rest of the world

[rodders]

Argentina never won in Dublin, but after TRC experience I bet for Argentina's win

Dublin_Dave will see that bet and raise you 20 euro..... .....

[Brendan]

I think it will be tight up until the benches empty when some of Ireland's form players come on.

See Ireland winning by 6 but close enough to the end.

Think there may only be 2/3 tries in the game and all coming in the second half

[SecretFly]

we'll either lose by a little or win actually by a lot.

How's that for fence-sitting?

[ME-109]

we'll either lose by a little or win actually by a lot.

How's that for fence-sitting?

we could possibly lose by a lot and win by a little as well.

[rodders]

we'll either lose by a little or win actually by a lot.

How's that for fence-sitting?

we could possibly lose by a lot and win by a little as well.

Or we could draw...have we missed anything out?

[ME-109]

We could draw with a high score or with a low score...or possibly 0-0.

[ME-109]

We could even lose to Samoa

[SecretFly]

ah no but DOD...that's not the fence I was sitting on. My fence is distinct... I think we'll either get shaven by the Argentinians and huff and puff our way to try and swing it back our way but run out of time

or

we'll cut loose and score higher than anybody will be predicting.

I think my feet are dangling on the latter scenario to be honest.

[rodders]

We could even lose to Samoa

[Mickado]

Surprised we've only played them 12 times. I can remember 3 in WC's and a 3 game tour in 2006 (I think?), I've seen us play them at least 3 times, so there's only been 3 other games? Or is that 12 times in the pro era?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Laptop ran out of battery. Fair play DOD you win this round!

[brennomac]

Crazy odds n this match from the bookies by the way - Ireland after losing five games in a row are 4-9, Argentina 17-10.

All down to the weight of money I know but if I wasn't a loyal
green flag-waving Irishman I'd be very attracted to those odds on the Pumas!!

[TJ1]

thats good odds on the pumas. Where is argiefan? - he should be putting a few quid on.

[profitius]

thats good odds on the pumas. Where is argiefan? - he should be putting a few quid on.

Good odds alright. Its -7pts in ladbrokes. Those posters who are talking up the Argentinians should put their money where their money on it!

[Argie fan]

Surprised we've only played them 12 times. I can remember 3 in WC's and a 3 game tour in 2006 (I think?), I've seen us play them at least 3 times, so there's only been 3 other games? Or is that 12 times in the pro era?

Date ------ Result --------------- City
24/08/1952 Argentina 03 – Irlanda 03 Buenos Aires
31/08/1952 Argentina 00 – Irlanda 06 Buenos Aires
13/09/1970 Argentina 08 – Irlanda 03 Buenos Aires
20/09/1970 Argentina 06 – Irlanda 03 Buenos Aires
10/11/1973 Irlanda 21 – Argentina 08 Dublín
27/10/1990 Irlanda 20 – Argentina 18 Dublín
28/08/1999 Irlanda 32 – Argentina 24 Dublín
20/10/1999 Argentina 28 – Irlanda 24 (RWC) Lens (Francia)
03/06/2000 Argentina 34 – Irlanda 23 Buenos Aires
23/11/2002 Irlanda 16 – Argentina 07 Buenos Aires
26/10/2003 Argentina 15 – Irlanda 16 (RWC) Adelaida
27/11/2004 Argentina 19 – Irlanda 21 Dublín
26/05/2007 Argentina 22 – Irlanda 20 Santa Fe
02/06/2007 Argentina 16 – Irlanda 00 Buenos Aires
30/10/2007 Argentina 30 – Irlanda 15 (RWC) Paris
22/11/2008 Irlanda 17 – Argentina 03 Dublin
28/11/2010 Irlanda 29 – Argentina 09 Dublín

[ME-109]

The five games pre 1990 didnt count as fully capped internationals I believe (same as Fiji/Ireland last weekend)

[brennomac]

thats good odds on the pumas. Where is argiefan? - he should be putting a few quid on.

Good odds alright. Its -7pts in ladbrokes. Those posters who are talking up the Argentinians should put their money where their money on it!

Arg now out to 7-4 with Paddy Power, getting to the stage where my greed might outweigh my patriotism - rarely seen such generous odds in a two-horse race

[brennomac]

And for Heino Cup, Toulon and Clermont now joint favourties at 4-1, Leinster now at 5-1

[Notch]

You know what, I can't wait until we do a proper three-test summer tour of Argentina. That is going to be absolutely epic.

As for the team- are we pretty much expecting the same except with Gilroy instead of Trimble? BBC thinks so. Sounds about right tbh.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20435408?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

[brennomac]

And Gerry Thornley, the Irish Times rugby corr/IRFU ventriloquist dumy (take your pick) expects Gilroy to start. Take it as read - Thornley has a direct line into Deccie's bunker in return for not rocking the boat

[profitius]

According to the Argentine press, the Pumas side would be:

1. Ayerza
2. Guiñazú
3. Bustos
4. Carizza
5. Farías Cabello
6. Fernández Lobbe
7. Leguizamón
8. Senatore
9. Landajo
10. Sánchez
11. Imhoff
12. Fernández
13. Bosch
14. Camacho
15. Hernández.

[Argie fan]

The next Saturday's match between Ireland and Argentina, will play for the "Admiral William Brown" cup.


Who was Admiral William Brown?

Here I leave a short review:
Admiral William Brown (also known in Spanish as Guillermo Brown).
Born in Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland on 22 June 1777 – Died 3 March 1857, was an Irish-born Argentine Admiral. Brown's victories in the Independence War, the Cisplatine War, and the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata earned the respect and appreciation of the Argentine people, and today he is regarded as one of Argentina's national heroes. Creator and first admiral of the country's maritime forces, he is commonly known as "the father of the Argentine Navy"

[dragonbreath]

I think we are the weakest opposition they will have faced in 2012. I think this alone means they are battle hardened enough to beat us if we don't front up. It is a step down for them from playing NZ, France, SA, Aus, Wales.

Argentina have always gotten better through game time too. They always started well in World Cups but build and build the further they get. You could argue the same in the Championship this year.

These guys are going to be very very tough I think.

If Samoa beat Scotland by a fair bit (r vice verse) we could be in trouble.

[LeinsterFan4life]

When are Samoa playing Scotland?

[ME-109]

They are playing L'Ecosse in France on Saturday...I bet that will be a surprise to Tonga when they turn up for their game.

[Notch]

I think we are quite evenly matched to be honest. I'm not pessimistic about this game, for a change it will be us dragging them into an arm wrestle! I was kind of hoping we'd change our backrow around a bit. I like O'Mahony and I like Henry, but they are pretty similar and neither of them are really dynamic or powerful.

[Feckless Rogue]

The next Saturday's match between Ireland and Argentina, will play for the "Admiral William Brown" cup.


Who was Admiral William Brown?

Here I leave a short review:
Admiral William Brown (also known in Spanish as Guillermo Brown).
Born in Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland on 22 June 1777 – Died 3 March 1857, was an Irish-born Argentine Admiral. Brown's victories in the Independence War, the Cisplatine War, and the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata earned the respect and appreciation of the Argentine people, and today he is regarded as one of Argentina's national heroes. Creator and first admiral of the country's maritime forces, he is commonly known as "the father of the Argentine Navy"

Cool. Are there many people with Irish roots in Argentina?

[profitius]

I fancy the Irish pack to win the forward battle but if D'Arcy and Earls are the centers then Ireland might lack some creativity. Having said that Earls only needs half a gap and hes off.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think we are the weakest opposition they will have faced in 2012. I think this alone means they are battle hardened enough to beat us if we don't front up. It is a step down for them from playing NZ, France, SA, Aus, Wales.

Argentina have always gotten better through game time too. They always started well in World Cups but build and build the further they get. You could argue the same in the Championship this year.

These guys are going to be very very tough I think.

If Samoa beat Scotland by a fair bit (r vice verse) we could be in trouble.

Dragonbreath,

What part is nonesense other than the silly fixture error fixed by dod days ago?

Do you think we are stronger than any of SA, Wales, Aus, NZ, France?

[Biltong]

I seriously don't know what to think of this game.

When you consider the start the Irish had against us, I am trying to think how much of it was Ireland and how much of it was the indiscipline of SA.

Likewise how would argentina start against the Irish, they surely will be highly motivated for this match, but then Ireland has more injuries than Argentina, and Argentina has a very physical pack this year.

When you consider what the Frnech did to them, then you need to ask yourself whether it was the ability of the French to get ball wide from counter attacks that made the difference or did their forwards make the difference.

Then you have to ask yourself what some beleive is that argentina may have run their course for the year and this is a bridge too far. Is that possible, I am thinking that about the Boks, so why would Argentina be any different?

I am confused.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Odd post biltong

The way id see it is france really turned up and now argentina will be looking for a come back game and it's their last this year and it's for ranking points.

I don't think we will see a tired/disinterested Argie team. Like you said they have very few injuries too. Their power may strangle us in midfield where we are very poor with Darcy and earls.

[Rava]

Gilroy the only likely change from team that played SA

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1122/1224326950316.html

The team according to Gerry Thornley: -

Possible Ireland XV

15 Simon Zebo (Munster)
14 Tommy Bowe (Ulster)
13 Keith Earls (Munster)
12 Gordon D’Arcy (Leinster)
11 Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
10 Jonathan Sexton (Leinster)
9 Conor Murray (Munster)
1 Cian Healy (Leinster)
2 Richardt Strauss (Leinster)
3 Mike Ross (Leinster)
4 Donnacha Ryan (Munster)
5 Mike McCarthy (Connacht)
6 Peter O’Mahony (Munster)
7 Chris Henry (Ulster)
8 Jamie Heaslip (Leinster, capt)

Replacements: D Kilcoyne (Munster), S Cronin (Leinster), M Bent (Leinster), D O’Callaghan (Munster), I Henderson (Ulster), E Reddan (Leinster), R O’Gara (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster).

[clivemcl]

ROG on the bench?? And I'm not sure we need Fergs versatility on the bench when earls is on the pitch. I'd rather have seen Jackson and Cave on the bench. Thornley normally has it right on the morning of though

Henderson unlucky too, POM needs to perform.

[rodders]

Very exciting back 3 if that gets the nod. Big question marks over the back row, half backs and midfield though.

That 9-12 axis needs to click as do D'arcy and Earls. Kidney has continually backed this group and they really need to start delivering.

Given the slick performances of the young guys against Fiji Kidney now has no more excuses if this lot don't produce some decent rugby here....assuming the pack doesn't get maramalized.....

[ME-109]

ROG on the bench?? And I'm not sure we need Fergs versatility on the bench when earls is on the pitch. I'd rather have seen Jackson and Cave on the bench. Thornley normally has it right on the morning of though

Henderson unlucky too, POM needs to perform.

Really thought Henry needed to perform. Also why take a complete rookie in a must win match who has had a great game against er....Fiji?

[ME-109]

Very exciting back 3 if that gets the nod. Big question marks over the back row, half backs and midfield though.

That 9-12 axis needs to click as do D'arcy and Earls. Kidney has continually backed this group and they really need to start delivering.

Given the slick performances of the young guys against Fiji Kidney now has no more excuses if this lot don't produce some decent rugby here....assuming the pack doesn't get maramalized.....

Yes the amazing performances against the might of the Fiji Junior C's....

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