Ireland 6N 33 man squad

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Michael Bent
Rory Best
Tom Court
Sean Cronin
Gordon D'Arcy
Keith Earls
Luke Fitzgerald
Declan Fitzpatrick
Craig Gilroy
Cian Healy
Jamie Heaslip
Iain Henderson
Chris Henry
Paddy Jackson
Rob Kearney
David Kilcoyne
Conor Murray
Mike McCarthy
Kevin McLaughlin
Fergus McFadden
Dave McSharry
Sean O'Brien
Donncha O'Callaghan
Brian O'Driscoll
Ronan O'Gara
Peter O'Mahony
Eoin Reddan
Mike Ross
Donnacha Ryan
Jonathan Sexton
Mike Sherry
Devin Toner
Simon Zebo


Notable inclusions - Jackson and McSharry

Notable Ommissions - Trimble and Marshall

Don Alfonso wrote:Scouring a few other fora and doing a bit of Colombo-esque jigsaw-work to build up a full picture, it seems that Cave was asked to hang around and hold tackle bags, but instead told Deccie where exactly the esrtwhile coach could store said tackle bags.

If any player no matter who they are genuinely walked away from Irish camp when asked to stay then may they never be asked to represent the country. Shame on him.

Yeah had thought it may have been Cave (if true)..... I can understand his frustration after the NZ tour debacle but I hope he doesn't live to regret that decision.....

red_stag wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Scouring a few other fora and doing a bit of Colombo-esque jigsaw-work to build up a full picture, it seems that Cave was asked to hang around and hold tackle bags, but instead told Deccie where exactly the esrtwhile coach could store said tackle bags.

If any player no matter who they are genuinely walked away from Irish camp when asked to stay then may they never be asked to represent the country. Shame on him.

For shame! Won't someone please think of the children?!

Cue a tidal wave of preciousness and hand-wringing.

I don't blame him. Despite being the form 13 last season and flown round the world to New Zealand Kidney preferred to fly Paddy Wallace from the beach rather than play Cave. God I can't wait until we get a new coach. I would sat he couldn't be any worse, but then it is the IRFU.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I don't blame him. Despite being the form 13 last season and flown round the world to New Zealand Kidney preferred to fly Paddy Wallace from the beach rather than play Cave. God I can't wait until we get a new coach. I would sat he couldn't be any worse, but then it is the IRFU.

Howleys available after this weekend if you fancy

I'd heard Cave had been released from the squad, and then asked to stay because of another player issue. He chose to go.

What was the player issue? Any idea?

Cave has probably burnt his bridges if true but i dont blame him for it. Kidney has treated him like Poopie so Cave had enough. He will have known full well that by refusing to stay he will have a black mark against his name even if a new coach does come in but i suspect he has thought that through. If he doesnt feature in the summer tour it will be in informative.

Standulsterman,

Would you say the same if James Coughlan took that attitude. Or Ian Madigan. I certainly wouldn't.

Nobody has a right to represent their country and Cave has had the best #13 of all time as a rival along with the more experience and more versatile Keith Earls.

I cant believe anyone would condone a player walking out on the national camp because he didnt get enough caps before hand.

Standulstermen wrote:Cave has probably burnt his bridges if true but i dont blame him for it. Kidney has treated him like Poopie so Cave had enough. He will have known full well that by refusing to stay he will have a black mark against his name even if a new coach does come in but i suspect he has thought that through. If he doesnt feature in the summer tour it will be in informative.

How has Cave been treated like Poopie? (Im not saying he hasn't just wondering.)

Don Alfonso wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Scouring a few other fora and doing a bit of Colombo-esque jigsaw-work to build up a full picture, it seems that Cave was asked to hang around and hold tackle bags, but instead told Deccie where exactly the esrtwhile coach could store said tackle bags.

If any player no matter who they are genuinely walked away from Irish camp when asked to stay then may they never be asked to represent the country. Shame on him.

For shame! Won't someone please think of the children?!

Cue a tidal wave of preciousness and hand-wringing.

Got to agree with Don man, the issue is he knows fine well he won't be asked to represent his country anyway. Anyone can hold a tacklebag and there's no prospect of him doing more than that. I mean he knows he's not going to get capped whatever happens. He's like fourth in line for the 13 shirt and provincial form isn't important (see Court and Trimble) so how is he meant to play his way in? And Ulster have a big, big push to make at the end of the season. He could be wasting his time down there or working towards something special up here.

Maybe under a new coach he will get a shot at more caps or maybe not, but under Kidney he probably sees it as a choice between no caps and potentially missing games for Ulster and no caps but getting to play for Ulster. I've little doubt if he felt like he was a genuine contender for the side he'd stick around. And the implication is he was asked to stay to hold tacklebags, not to actually be part of the squad. Don said it; he doesn't have bridges to burn.

red_stag wrote:Standulsterman,

Would you say the same if James Coughlan took that attitude. Or Ian Madigan. I certainly wouldn't.

Nobody has a right to represent their country and Cave has had the best #13 of all time as a rival along with the more experience and more versatile Keith Earls.

I cant believe anyone would condone a player walking out on the national camp because he didnt get enough caps before hand.

Stag I understand your frustration but I would feel the same regarding any player. If cave knows full well it will spell the end of his international chances and accepts that, he has every right not to hold tackle bags. I'm presuming (if indeed it is as reported) that cave has thought this through and I hope for his sake he doesn't regret it.

I don't expect Deccie or the next coach to forgive him for it but if cave is happy with his call then fair enough for me.

Not really concerned about Cave, more concerned that it could be indicative of splits in the camp which do tend to go on provincial lines. I would say the Ulster lads are fairly pished off. When the subject of international selection came up they always used to say "Yeah, well we know we have to be doing well in the league and in Europe to get the same representation once we do that..."

But, eh, it doesn't seem to work that way. Certainly the likes of Andy Trimble and Tom Court will be fairly pished off at the way selection has gone given recent form. I wouldn't say Chris Henry is as he has a good head on his shoulders. But the influence of the Munster and Leinster mafia is going to take more than one season of success to dislodge. The IRFU is nothing if not conservative. Hopefully the lads are patient- our day will come.

I can't say I blame Cave had he ben younger then maybe it would be different but Cave probably thinks he has no way in and as he aiin't that young he probs thinks his time is better spent at Ulster and doesn't have to worry about the future as much as say Madigan or Jackson or any 21 year old would. Im sure he thought it through well beforehand, it's a pity that he felt he had to do it but it is his decision and I will respect any players decision to do as they wish, also lets be fair we don't know what actually happened so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.

If he didnt walk out... fair enough. Give the man a break. Why do the meeja fabricate these lies? Oh hauld on...

neilthom7 wrote:lets be fair we don't know what actually happened so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.

A great point. My reaction is assuming that it is as Don says - Kidney asks him to come in to camp and gain experience by being the opposition to the actual squad and Cave tells him where to go.

Noch - Ulster are not unique in not having form players represented. Alan Quinlan, Ian Dowling, Anthony Horgan, John Kelly, Barry Murphy were all first choice Munster players during our golden era at Munster. Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings did not ever manage to earn a fraction as many international caps as their provincial form suggested.

There is no conspiracy against Ulster. Trimble is almost at 50 international appearances and Court has more caps than any of those players I mentioned above. Trimble getting so many caps is amazing when you consider he has had Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Fergus McFadden, Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy all as rivals over that time.

You know as well as I do that but for injury Stephen Ferris and Tommy Bowe would be automatic starters for Ireland as is Rory Best. Thats no more than Munster who would have O'Connell, Ryan and Murray as guaranteed starting players for Ireland.

All this talk about the Munster/Leinster brigade is really divisive ahead of a big game where we need to be behind the team.

red_stag wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:lets be fair we don't know what actually happened so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.

A great point. My reaction is assuming that it is as Don says - Kidney asks him to come in to camp and gain experience by being the opposition to the actual squad and Cave tells him where to go.

Noch - Ulster are not unique in not having form players represented. Alan Quinlan, Ian Dowling, Anthony Horgan, John Kelly, Barry Murphy were all first choice Munster players during our golden era at Munster. Leo Cullen and Shane Jennings did not ever manage to earn a fraction as many international caps as their provincial form suggested.

There is no conspiracy against Ulster. Trimble is almost at 50 international appearances and Court has more caps than any of those players I mentioned above. Trimble getting so many caps is amazing when you consider he has had Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Luke Fitzgerald, Keith Earls, Fergus McFadden, Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy all as rivals over that time.

You know as well as I do that but for injury Stephen Ferris and Tommy Bowe would be automatic starters for Ireland as is Rory Best. Thats no more than Munster who would have O'Connell, Ryan and Murray as guaranteed starting players for Ireland.

All this talk about the Munster/Leinster brigade is really divisive ahead of a big game where we need to be behind the team.

He's good though.

Ireland for the SLAM.

Believe.

Darren Cave has cleared things up on Twitter. Says Kidney never asked him to stay.

Notch wrote:Not really concerned about Cave, more concerned that it could be indicative of splits in the camp which do tend to go on provincial lines. I would say the Ulster lads are fairly pished off. When the subject of international selection came up they always used to say "Yeah, well we know we have to be doing well in the league and in Europe to get the same representation once we do that..."

But, eh, it doesn't seem to work that way. Certainly the likes of Andy Trimble and Tom Court will be fairly pished off at the way selection has gone given recent form. I wouldn't say Chris Henry is as he has a good head on his shoulders. But the influence of the Munster and Leinster mafia is going to take more than one season of success to dislodge. The IRFU is nothing if not conservative. Hopefully the lads are patient- our day will come.

From what I can see from twitter accounts and newspaper interviews there are not splits in the camp. Last week on scrum.com, Craig Gilroy was talking about being very pally with Zebo. I think it was Chris Henry who said that in the autumn he stayed in Dublin for the month and didn't bother going home to God's Own Country. I've seen tweets from Dublin restaurants saying that mixed group of players (henry, POM & Cave) were in for a meal, Cave is slagging off Damian Varley about being a bit under the weather after their night out. and then all the Ulster lads were tweeting about having a ball with Barry's Murphy's band (hermitage green).

Now, can you show any evidence to support your theory that their are splits in the camp?

red_stag wrote:Darren Cave has cleared things up on Twitter. Says Kidney never asked him to stay.

Yep. apparently a lot of nonsense. I heard Cave is back training with the squad so nothing to it

Standulstermen wrote:

red_stag wrote:Darren Cave has cleared things up on Twitter. Says Kidney never asked him to stay.

Yep. apparently a lot of nonsense. I heard Cave is back training with the squad so nothing to it

Exactly yes. He could very well be needed if we have no Earls or Darcy.

Tiocfaidh ár lá

Exactly.

Not committing to when mind. One GS every 60 years. Do you go for law of averages or law of diminishing returns?

Two more token Noordies drafted into the squad. Just like Steady Eddie, Kidney must really hate em all right. For all ye Ulster conspiracy-merchants out there, what more do you want? Ulster are the new Munster - in his head. To be honest, is dangerous... but I am starting to love the shape and makeup of this squad. Actually starting to believe it will kick on from here.

Badly need to beat England now - as has been the norm for the last 10 years. Can we do it twice-in-a-row, in one comp? That 1st 45 minutes? And this time Declan, for 80 mins please.

It's England. We will focus for 2 days before it and for 20 years after it. We will win this one. They are not getting out of Our Town with a win. It wont happen. I love it when they get cocky. Don't ye? How many times.... ?

Love to see Trimble come back at the Boy-Wonder Gilroy. Always rated our Andy. So much power, speed, grace and intelligence, all in one player. Love to see him lose the inner-shackles, stand up and displace the young usurper. It would be fairly healthy all round. Then Fitz comes back into the equation. You want to see what real rugby-sex is all about Zebo, huh? Man. Lads, its all coming through.

Neither Flegs or ignorance, will separate us now. We are One. Even under a Cork coach.

A United Ireland for the SLAM.

Believe.

You've got your mojo back then

Glas a du wrote:Not committing to when mind. One GS every 60 years. Do you go for law of averages or law of diminishing returns?

61 years. I watched most of em, mo Cymru chara.

These are the Good Days. Please explain it to the kids.

Not bad for the fourth most popular sport in the country eh?

Glas a du wrote:Not bad for the fourth most popular sport in the country eh?

Nae bad my friend. I played all 4. At the same time. It was tricky mind. But I was fast.

Love you.

Is that why they call you a player?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nz3EQXLA-Q

Man, get real. Cave and Trimble aren't going to be involved!

I predict one change. D'Arcy to be passed fit, Earls to not. Fitzgerald to the bench. Other than that it'll be the exact same.

Are any other changes required?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Tiocfaidh ár lá

Useful tool that google translate.Creidim (mar a deir sé ar an fhógra Guinness).

DOD wrote:Are any other changes required?

I think the only positions up for grabs are in the backrow and the reserve loosehead spot, but Court is training with Ulster this week so realistically the only prospect of an unenforced change is Henry for O'Mahony.

I think it's a 50/50 call. In an ideal world I would reverse Gilroy and Trimbles position. Gilroy back to Ulster and Trimble for Ireland, but again; not really concerned.

greytiger wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Tiocfaidh ár lá

Useful tool that google translate.Creidim (mar a deir sé ar an fhógra Guinness).

You can't really trust google translate for irish.

You would like to change our most effective ball carrier for a player who was at best anonymous when he came on last week... Plus a player who has been poor everytime recently he has played for Ireland ...interesting

DOD wrote:You would like to change our most effective ball carrier for a player who was at best anonymous when he came on last week... Plus a player who has been poor everytime recently he has played for Ireland ...interesting

?

No. I would stick with O'Mahony. But like i said it's a 50/50 call. Henry will make less metres but more jackals and more tackles. I'd bring Henry on after about 50 mins.

What did you think I said?

DOD wrote:Are any other changes required?

Yeah Decco, we need to change that smirk on Ashtons face. He's a bit like ROG, only fatter and uglier.

Bring it on!

Apologies I misunderstood your comment on Henry and o'mahoney. It won't happen unless enforced. I can't see a change happening during the game unless pom gets injured. Although that is likely.

Gibson wrote:

DOD wrote:Are any other changes required?

Yeah Decco, need to change that smirk on Ashtons face. He's a bit like ROG, only fatter and uglier.

Bring it on!

luckily we have sexton with his big ugly Kerry head to sort him out...

Notch wrote:

DOD wrote:You would like to change our most effective ball carrier for a player who was at best anonymous when he came on last week... Plus a player who has been poor everytime recently he has played for Ireland ...interesting

?

No. I would stick with O'Mahony. But like i said it's a 50/50 call. Henry will make less metres but more jackals and more tackles. I'd bring Henry on after about 50 mins.

What did you think I said?

Wanted Henry at 7 to start with. Better balanced backrow. But that Rory phhokks up the whole equation. He's that good. He is an animal for work at the breakdown. So was POM. Watched the game again. He was manic. He was everywhere. POM starts. Henry on the bench. As you were.

DOD wrote:

Gibson wrote:

DOD wrote:Are any other changes required?

Yeah Decco, need to change that smirk on Ashtons face. He's a bit like ROG, only fatter and uglier.

Bring it on!

luckily we have sexton with his big ugly Kerry head to sort him out...

I really only understand about half of these Irish threads.

But I do enjoy them the most.

BOD interview;

https://soundcloud.com/off-the-ball/our-interview-tonight-with

Great stuff Notch!