v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 1

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s final two matches concluded round 2 with both Mohammed Ali and Steffi Graf progressing into the last 16 (17 with SRR now included), falling short and failing to make the next stage Sergei Bubka and Brain Lara.

With 17 sporting greats through to the next round we kick off today with a blockbuster match up, pitting two of the current generations elite against each other: Roger Federer vs. Lionel Messi.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Roger Federer - Tennis - Championed by Emancipator

"2001, Wimbledon Centre Court; defending and seven time Wimbledon champion 'Pistol' Pete Sampras, the man who had reigned at the top of men's tennis for close to a decade and considered by many to be unbeatable on this hallowed turf is at crisis point. At two sets all, 5-6 and 15-40 down in the deciding set, the ruthlessly efficient Sampras is facing match point. It had been five years since anyone had managed to beat him in this tournament. His opponent is a relatively unknown challenger in the form of Swiss teenager, 19 year old Roger Federer. On countless occasions throughout his career Sampras had bailed himself out of tight spots with his booming, swerving, pin-point accurate serve; the serve universally acclaimed as the greatest in history. He wipes sweat from his brow, bounces the ball twice, looks up, coils himself into the releasing position, then with a seamlessly fluid motion he serves a missile out wide to Federer's forehand and charges towards the net. Federer takes a step towards the ball and unleashes a forehand that whizzes past Sampras for a clean winner. He crumples to his knees in disbelief and celebration. The BBC commentator proclaims the birth of a new star. The crowd rise as one to salute the new King. It is the dawn of a new era.. The Federer era.

It would be another couple of years before Federer would really hit the heights, and what heights! 17 grand slams from 24 finals, including 7 Wimbledon titles. Over 300 weeks as the number one player in the world, including 237 consecutive weeks at the top spot. 6 World Tour Final victories from 8 finals. 23 consecutive grand slam semi-finals; 34 consecutive grand slam quarter finals (and counting); a run of 24 consecutive finals victories in all tournaments, 65 consecutive match wins on grass, 56 consecutive match wins on hardcourt, five consecutive Wimbledon and US Open titles, a run of 18 grand slam finals out of 19 grand slam tournaments played, 21 masters titles.. and on and on.. all of them records, many of them by a considerable distance. There are at least half a dozen Wikipedia articles dedicated to the career achievements and complied statistics/records of Roger Federer. Peruse them at your own leisure - if you've got a few days to spare that is

But what makes Federer really stand out amongst the legends of tennis and indeed any sport is his unique game. Everything about his game is beautiful, everything is seemingly effortless. He glides around the court unhurried, with uncanny footwork and balletic grace. A sixth sense for being at the right place at the right time. He plays with perfect technique. Like an artist, Federer creates masterpieces; the court is his canvas. At heart, he is an attacking player who plays the game the right way; always looking to seize the initiative, to hit outright winners, to win spectacularly and brilliantly. He can hit every shot in the book. But he can also grind and play great defense. If it is so required he can switch to plan b, c, d, whatever it takes. In a sport dominated by super athletes, Federer at his peak was as fast and durable as they come. Modern tennis is played predominantly from the baseline (a stark difference to the tennis of Sampras's heydey which was mainly serve and volley based, with the majority of points won at the net) and Roger Federer can play the baseline game as well as anyone. But he can do so much more. He can mix spins and slices, lobs and dropshots, powerful winners and delicate touch, from the back of the court or at the net. It is this unique fusion of power, skill and aesthetic grace, that has captured the imagination of millions of fans around the world. Federer doesn't just win, he wins with style.

Federer's style and success has allowed him to transcend the sport in a way that few sportsmen in history can match. He is a record four time winner of the prestigious Laureus Sportsman of the Year Award. In a recent poll conducted across 25 countries with 51,000 participants he was voted as the second most trusted person in the world after Nelson Mandela. During the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony, Federer received the loudest cheer of the night when he carried the Swiss flag into the stadium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddojLWIjKK4 At the London Olympics Federer's pre-Olympic presser had more than 700 journalists, more than any other star at the games. He was mobbed by crowds during his recent tour of South America with political and sporting dignitaries (including Pele and Maradonna) feting him. He has the most impressive endorsement portfolio in all of sports including blue chip companies such as Nike, Mercedes-Benz (global ambassador), Wilson, Rolex, Credite Suisse, Gillette, Moet & Chandon etc.

But despite all the accolades Federer has remained a likeable, down to earth person. His fellow tennis professionals have voted him the winner of the annual Steffan Edberg Sportsmanship award a record eight times. He is the President of the ATP players council and in this capacity has campaigned for the benefit of all the players on the tour, including negotiating a fairer distribution of prize money for players who lose in the earlier rounds of the slams. The Roger Federer foundation is a charitable organisation with the stated mission of empowering children through education; it is involved in numerous projects throughout Africa.

It is incredible that with so many distractions (he's married with two young children to boot) Federer has still managed to stay at the top of such a global and competitive sport. As things stand he is the number 2 ranked player in the world and indeed was, just a few short months ago, the number one player in the world. Tennis has traditionally been a young man's sport but Roger Federer has redefined the parameters. An incredible work ethic, pure sporting genius with exemplary conduct has moulded one of the greatest sporting careers ever witnessed. And it's not over yet. Federer has declared his intention to play until the 2016 Olympic Games. There may yet be a few more pages to add to Wikipedia

Some quotes:

""[In the modern game], you're either a clay court specialist, a grass court specialist or a hard court specialist ... or you're Roger Federer"" - Jimmy Connors

""He is the most naturally talented player I have ever seen in my life"" - John McEnroe

""He moves like a whisper and executes like a wrecking ball"" - Nick Bollettieri (legendary tennis coach)

""He is the most perfect machine I have ever seen playing tennis"" - Diego Maradonna

""Federer plays shots that other players don't even think of"" - Ivan Lendl

""We are witnessing history. This is the most dominant athlete on planet earth today"" - Jim Courier (4 time grand slam champion)

""Federer is the best player in history - no other player has ever had so much quality"" - Rafael Nadal

""Roger's got too many shots, too much talent in one body. It's hardly fair that one person can do all this—his backhands, his forehands, volleys, serving, his court position. The way he moves around the court, you feel like he's barely touching the ground. That's the sign of a great champion."" - Rod Laver

""He's the best I've ever played against. There's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do except hit fairways, hit greens and make putts. Every shot has that sort of urgency on it. I've played a lot of them [other players], so many years; there's a safety zone, there's a place to get to, there's something to focus on, there's a way. Anything you try to do, he potentially has an answer for and it's just a function of when he starts pulling the triggers necessary to get you to change to that decision."" - Andre Agassi

""He's a real person. He's not an enigma. Off the court he's not trying to be somebody. If you met him at McDonald's and you didn't know who he was, you would have no idea that he's one of the best athletes in the world"" - Andy Roddick

""Today I was playing my best tennis, trying lots of different things, but nothing worked. When you're playing like that and he still comes up with all those great shots you really have to wonder if he's even from the same planet"" - Novak Djokovic



emancipator

ps - For those of you who haven't seen the The Fed Express in action, the following video might give you some idea of what he's all about
http://vimeo.com/40765561"

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by Chris W

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - "Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), three Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor

I take it back on Creed. Should he have been in our 64 maybe?

Lang I wont have though. If he was so good how come they never mentioned him in the first two films? Then he suddenly appears in Rocky 3 looking very much like that bloke out of the A-Team. I think its fair to say that's the point the films went downhill very rapidly.

I prefer Rocky Balboa to any of the other films. The fight section of the film was just like watching a real life fight on TV, it was great to watch. And he should have won the decision too, Mason got beat up pretty bad.

I remember seeing Rowley at comps when he was just a kid. John Rattray too.
When people like Alex Moul, Sean Goff and Rocker Robson were around.

I remeber seeing Steve douglas alot around crystal palace who was the king around my neck of the woods!

He was awesome. Pete Dosset was from round there I think too.
Mike Manzoori and Curtis McCann too.

yep pete dosset!! used to see him around fairfield halls!!

super_realist wrote:Oakey, I've actually skated with Tony Hawk, smashed into him in the big bowl in Livingstone.

Some of those guys, Hawk, Miller, Way, Glifberg, Mullen are amazing. But it's a judged sport so we can't have them in.

Super gets enthusiastic, it's a miracle. And all over a kids sport, and greasy haired, spotty, grungy kids at that.
I met a lad (about a 30 year ild lad) on a skiing holiday who skate boarded, I gently ribbed him about it being for kids and he had the hump for the rest of the week...which kind of proved my point I thought.
We have a skate park in my town, brilliant for the yoof but when I see older bloke there it always looks either sad or creepy.

Diggers, I gave up when I was said greasy haired, spotty, teenager.
Agreed it's weird for anyone older than 16/17. You should be out then getting drunk and trying to fire into women.

Mind you, at what point in a blossoming relationship do you admit you play golf? That's a tricky one to broach too.

Those three words are very hard to say.

True enough.

Golf's a breeze, try telling the Mrs that you still watching wrestling as a grown man.
That's true love when she stays with you.
Well either that or pity.

Try convincing a forum full of people that an adult who still watches wrestling has a missus, now that really is a challenge Hero.

Rowley wrote:Try convincing a forum full of people that an adult who still watches wrestling has a missus, now that really is a challenge Hero.

Especially when he's an Alan Carr impersonator

I have photographic evidence of a woman on multiple occasions being with me.
Okay she has a look of fear upon her face and they're taken in my basement but I call her my wife.

I'd imagine telling your missus you like wrestling would provoke equal shock as saying you are into musical theatre or cross dressing.

Diggers wrote:I'd imagine telling your missus you like wrestling would provoke equal shock as saying you are into musical theatre or cross dressing.

Wrestling itself is kind of a combination of both, too.

Hero wrote:I have photographic evidence of a woman on multiple occasions being with me.
Okay she has a look of fear upon her face and they're taken in my basement but I call her my wife.

And Hero's back in the game

Wouldn't most skateboarders hate to think people thought it was a sport?

Aren't they far too cool and detached to take part in something as square and mainstream as sport? Dude.

Speaking of cool I'm going for Federer because I think he's the greatest ever tennnis player and do not think that Messi is the greatest ever footballer.

well most skateboarders arnt competing in it as a sport,- its a pastime like snow boarding, ice skating etc..forget any cool dude element.. it isnt a sport at the basic level just like jogging isnt

International football in Europe on a qualifying basis is far easier than South America

Chris do u really stand by that assessment...

Europe is so tough. And IMO. Tougher.... Saying it's far easier is pushing reality

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:International football in Europe on a qualifying basis is far easier than South America

I would neccesarily agree. Potentially 5/9 teams go through from S.A. 6/9 if they happen to be hosting the world cup as in 2014.

The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

superflyweight wrote:The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

Its the same for S.A teams. When did Brazil or Argentina last fail to qualify? think they might have had one or two near misses but off the top of my head have they ever actually missed out?

In general players travel huge distances from Europe to play back home, in varied conditions in terms of grounds, weather and even altitudes, against extremely underrated sides in a more competitive environment. Chile have already been criminally underrated here, a team under Bielsa that played some of the best and most exciting football of 2010.

There is no San Marino, Malta, Faroe Islands. The quality of opposition game by game is filled with far more quality. With the group stages as they are in Europe you only really have to play one team of any standard as a dominant side. Some pretty poor England sides have walked through group campaigns

The Champions League is, for me, the testing ground for players these days too. I'm not one who buys into having to perform on the world stage. It ignores context and the rigours of domestic football which has a power now that far exceeds what it once had due to money and the business of football.

I look at Messi and see how Ronaldo is rated as a sign of how good Lionel is. Cristiano Ronaldo is probably the best player the Premiership has ever seen. He is sensational, and has abilities that should really see him compared more regularly to the greats of the game. He is almost forgotten because of how good Messi is.

He has a rather huge list of achievements, but I don't class him as GOAT for that. I base it on his talent being unparalleled. I think he's the best to have played the sport on his current ability, playing against a higher standard.

Maradona's goal against England stands out as a classy, mazy run. Messi does that regularly and with more control on the ball. He plays every game as the focus of a teams defending.

Giggs' ability when he was younger never matched the consistency, nor did he ever have the ability in tight spaces. He galloped and glided. There was never the subtlety of Messi's left foot.

He's definitely turned up in big games and won them. He's got champions league medals, records and 4 Ballon D'Ors. Most importantly for me, he's clearly the most talented player you can watch, that essence of sport that isn't about what you win from the game but how you play it, even when I wanted to hate him he made me cheer with things he did

"The quality of opposition game by game is filled with far more quality"


well that certainly isnt the case- I take it you are trying to say the average standard is better, because in europe we have the odd team like san marino

The point is quite simple though. Look at the teams that miss out in europe and look at the ones that miss out in SA.. there will be possibly 15 plus european countries that would be better than some of the teams that make it to the WC finals yet much less SA teams

As I remember Maradona's goal against Belgium was even better than his goal against England. I don't think I've seen anyone score two individual goals like that in a World Cup and I don't think Messi scores goals of that quality that often.
There is way more pressure on a World Cup than a Champions League, clubs like Barca have a crack every year at the Champions League, its not the end of the world if they fail.
Maradona was under massive pressure to deliver for a whole nation in 86 and he did it with bells on. It was by far the stand out moment of his career but the rest of it was hardly too shabby.

Thats not how it works though. We have groups, seeded groups, the quality is dispersed. This is beautifully highlighted by our qualifying group. Poland and Montenegro are not that good. There are more sides of a good standard, but they dont meet.

Im not talking about the difficulty of qualifying either, because the amount of teams that go through makes it easier, but there are better teams to face each time. I would fancy the poorest team in the south american group to be better than every bottom placed side in Europe.

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

Its the same for S.A teams. When did Brazil or Argentina last fail to qualify? think they might have had one or two near misses but off the top of my head have they ever actually missed out?

But the odds are stacked in favour of the seeded teams. No such advantages are afforded to Brazil and Argentina.

Diggers wrote:As I remember Maradona's goal against Belgium was even better than his goal against England. I don't think I've seen anyone score two individual goals like that in a World Cup and I don't think Messi scores goals of that quality that often.
There is way more pressure on a World Cup than a Champions League, clubs like Barca have a crack every year at the Champions League, its not the end of the world if they fail.
Maradona was under massive pressure to deliver for a whole nation in 86 and he did it with bells on. It was by far the stand out moment of his career but the rest of it was hardly too shabby.

This relates to the point that I made earlier. Maradona scored 2 exceptional goals in 86 but he didn't do it every week but because much of his career wasnt televised worldwide, there's a perception of him based on career highlights. Messi has scored some equally fantastic goals (goals against Getafe, Real Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla spring to mind) but because he doesn't do them every week, it somehow counts against him because we see that he doesn't do it every week.

superflyweight wrote:

Diggers wrote:As I remember Maradona's goal against Belgium was even better than his goal against England. I don't think I've seen anyone score two individual goals like that in a World Cup and I don't think Messi scores goals of that quality that often.
There is way more pressure on a World Cup than a Champions League, clubs like Barca have a crack every year at the Champions League, its not the end of the world if they fail.
Maradona was under massive pressure to deliver for a whole nation in 86 and he did it with bells on. It was by far the stand out moment of his career but the rest of it was hardly too shabby.

This relates to the point that I made earlier. Maradona scored 2 exceptional goals in 86 but he didn't do it every week but because much of his career wasnt televised worldwide, there's a perception of him based on career highlights. Messi has scored some equally fantastic goals (goals against Getafe, Real Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla spring to mind) but because he doesn't do them every week, it somehow counts against him because we see that he doesn't do it every week.

I actually think the opposite is more the case.

Usually people lament that there hasn't been enough footage of a particular sportsperson and so their greatness by virtue of not being recorded (video) as much is diminished.

Maradonna may have had many great moments on the pitch that most of us will never get to see. Every time Messi kicks a ball it is recorded and seen on video websites by millions of people. He has effectively had a far larger audience and greater stage (numbers wise) to shine on because of this. Most people don't remember the bad games, they remember the great moments, so I don't see how Messi's legend is diminished in any way by greater footage and exposure. A lot of the footage of Diego is grainy and shot from a distance and so the quallity and nuances of what he did on the pitch is more difficult to appreciate. Everything Messi does is magnified with HD , slo mo and close ups. I think he has the inevitable advantage of being more contemporary.

For me Maradonna to date exceeds Messi (skillwise and achievement) but Messi still has time on his side.

I'm not even going to bother commenting on Messi, comes as a no surprise it's an easy vote for Federer.

Thats kinda true SFW but I think had maradonna xavi and iniesta backing him up he would have the freedom to do that sort of thing. Messi is brilliant but if you put Ronaldo where messi is now, he'd be knocking opponents aside just as easily. You also forget how much of a diver he is with the referees protecting them and the lighter ball, the lighter boots - with enhancements to help the ball stick to the foot advantage over Maradonna for the direct comparison. You see Messi play in an Era where killing the guy with the ball might get you a slap on the wrist and he'd do the square root of Frak all.

There is also the example of Ronaldinho and Kaka who could have been the greatest modern footballers but peed it away/ had it taken from them. I don't think Messis done enough by himself at this stage of his career to merit inclusion (though he is a top ten in his sport).

superflyweight wrote:

Diggers wrote:As I remember Maradona's goal against Belgium was even better than his goal against England. I don't think I've seen anyone score two individual goals like that in a World Cup and I don't think Messi scores goals of that quality that often.
There is way more pressure on a World Cup than a Champions League, clubs like Barca have a crack every year at the Champions League, its not the end of the world if they fail.
Maradona was under massive pressure to deliver for a whole nation in 86 and he did it with bells on. It was by far the stand out moment of his career but the rest of it was hardly too shabby.

This relates to the point that I made earlier. Maradona scored 2 exceptional goals in 86 but he didn't do it every week but because much of his career wasnt televised worldwide, there's a perception of him based on career highlights. Messi has scored some equally fantastic goals (goals against Getafe, Real Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla spring to mind) but because he doesn't do them every week, it somehow counts against him because we see that he doesn't do it every week.

Try watching a Maradona showreel on YouTube , you might find he scored a lot more than two decent goals. And I really don't think you can dismiss what a defensive league Serie A was compared to the current La Liga which is a pretty weak league defensively speaking, and in terms of any real depth.

superflyweight wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

Its the same for S.A teams. When did Brazil or Argentina last fail to qualify? think they might have had one or two near misses but off the top of my head have they ever actually missed out?

But the odds are stacked in favour of the seeded teams. No such advantages are afforded to Brazil and Argentina.

Because its not neccessary in S.A given the lesser amount of countries. I would argue that the seeding is more than balanced out by having half the teams go through.

I would say its harder to qualify if you are in Europe. Probably easier for one of the big teams in Europe to slip up also.

I didn't say he scored only two decent goals. I pointed out he scored two 'exceptional' goals and that for a lot of people, those goals define him. This was largely in response to the point that Messi doesn't score these type of goals very often - which isn't backed up by evidence.

To qualify how tough world cups are just imagine the pressure that Messi will be under in Rio, for most countries to win a world cup is a once on a generation thing, Maradona had this pressure and rose to it.
That's one of the things that sets asides the greats, I honestly don't think Messi has conquered the same level of pressure with Barca, for Barca if you don't win the Champions League there is La Liga or the Copa Del Rey or start again next season with the best side.

how did maradona conquer that pressure.. cheating and drugs is one answer!

superflyweight wrote:I didn't say he scored only two decent goals. I pointed out he scored two 'exceptional' goals and that for a lot of people, those goals define him. This was largely in response to the point that Messi doesn't score these type of goals very often - which isn't backed up by evidence.

People score brilliant goals all the time, its when where and how you do it that matters. If Maradona is to an extent defined by those goals it's because people recognised how crucial they were surely and how much resonance the World Cup has.

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

Its the same for S.A teams. When did Brazil or Argentina last fail to qualify? think they might have had one or two near misses but off the top of my head have they ever actually missed out?

But the odds are stacked in favour of the seeded teams. No such advantages are afforded to Brazil and Argentina.

Because its not neccessary in S.A given the lesser amount of countries. I would argue that the seeding is more than balanced out by having half the teams go through.

I would say its harder to qualify if you are in Europe. Probably easier for one of the big teams in Europe to slip up also.

Whether its necessary or not doesnt matter. Its not necessary because there are a vast different amount of teams. On a game by game basis the quality of opposition is far higher in South America. Across the years you play a lot of bad teams and not many good ones. You wont play teams of the respective quality of Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, Columbia etc etc. Let alone different conditions, fiercer rivalry and travel.

Accolades are of a certain importance, but talent is really my interest. I think he is more talented. Spanish defending has definitely improved, let alone the fact teams are far more defensively minded against Barca, and specifically on how to stop Messi. I also ignore the brute nature of defending back then. Not only does Messi get some rough treatment, but defenders are far better players nowadays. Technical defenders are much more of a challenge than rough defenders.

chris.wilkerson13 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

superflyweight wrote:The odds may favour South American teams but for a team seeded 1 in Europe, a decent draw will see them barely breaking sweat. When was the last time that a major European team failed to qualify? The teams that represent South America tend to change from tournament to tournament (the big two excepted - albeit I seem to remember at one point that Argentina were struggling for 2010).

Its the same for S.A teams. When did Brazil or Argentina last fail to qualify? think they might have had one or two near misses but off the top of my head have they ever actually missed out?

But the odds are stacked in favour of the seeded teams. No such advantages are afforded to Brazil and Argentina.

Because its not neccessary in S.A given the lesser amount of countries. I would argue that the seeding is more than balanced out by having half the teams go through.

I would say its harder to qualify if you are in Europe. Probably easier for one of the big teams in Europe to slip up also.

Whether its necessary or not doesnt matter. Its not necessary because there are a vast different amount of teams. On a game by game basis the quality of opposition is far higher in South America. Across the years you play a lot of bad teams and not many good ones. You wont play teams of the respective quality of Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, Columbia etc etc. Let alone different conditions, fiercer rivalry and travel.

Accolades are of a certain importance, but talent is really my interest. I think he is more talented. Spanish defending has definitely improved, let alone the fact teams are far more defensively minded against Barca, and specifically on how to stop Messi. I also ignore the brute nature of defending back then. Not only does Messi get some rough treatment, but defenders are far better players nowadays. Technical defenders are much more of a challenge than rough defenders.

I perhaps misunderstood your point (I havent the read entire thread) so my response was merely in relation as to whether or not it was easier to qualify in SA or Europe. I took it as you were saying its far harder to qualify from the S.A system, which I wouldnt neccessarily agree with. But it looks like you were making a slightly different point.

Ahhhh, I'm probably in agreement on that point!

Voted for Federer, up until ten days ago I'd never heard of Messi.

I'm not a complete ignoramus though, as I do know who Tony Hawke is.

Sweet Aucks..

You know the legend that is tony hawks!

Hawk came down here (and Australia) a couple of times during the Northern hemisphere off season to prepare for the Summer x games.

At the time one of my nephews had a Tony Hawk board, and before he went to bed used to sing "If I die before I wake, at least in heaven I can Skate".

haha

Federer is actually winning by quite a larger margin than I expected. Near enough double the votes!

Stella wrote:

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

sodhat wrote:If Diego was capable of winning a World Cup - the "pinnacle" of football with his sheer brilliance, why could he not lead a team to win a weaker tournament?

It's the fact that he's done it at all that makes him one of the GOATS. He's done what very few players have ever had the ability to do. And Messi hasn't done it.

Not yet but he has two good world cups left in him.

So yea Messi will qualify when he gets that in time, for the moment Roger Federer whacks an inside-out forehand winner for Game Set and Match.

Roger Federer wins this 70-30 margin.

Too soon to vote for Messi as GOAT. Federer strong candidate to go through.

I like both players and Messi is on track to become the greatest footballer ever. As of now, Federer wins this easily, but in 5 years time it will be too difficult to split between the two.

Hats off to Fed Head, but be wary lest Hastings awaits in the QF...