v2 G.O.A.T The Last 16 Match 1

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday’s final two matches concluded round 2 with both Mohammed Ali and Steffi Graf progressing into the last 16 (17 with SRR now included), falling short and failing to make the next stage Sergei Bubka and Brain Lara.

With 17 sporting greats through to the next round we kick off today with a blockbuster match up, pitting two of the current generations elite against each other: Roger Federer vs. Lionel Messi.

Please vote for the participant you believe has achieved the most in sport

Please leave a comment as to why you voted

Roger Federer - Tennis - Championed by Emancipator

"2001, Wimbledon Centre Court; defending and seven time Wimbledon champion 'Pistol' Pete Sampras, the man who had reigned at the top of men's tennis for close to a decade and considered by many to be unbeatable on this hallowed turf is at crisis point. At two sets all, 5-6 and 15-40 down in the deciding set, the ruthlessly efficient Sampras is facing match point. It had been five years since anyone had managed to beat him in this tournament. His opponent is a relatively unknown challenger in the form of Swiss teenager, 19 year old Roger Federer. On countless occasions throughout his career Sampras had bailed himself out of tight spots with his booming, swerving, pin-point accurate serve; the serve universally acclaimed as the greatest in history. He wipes sweat from his brow, bounces the ball twice, looks up, coils himself into the releasing position, then with a seamlessly fluid motion he serves a missile out wide to Federer's forehand and charges towards the net. Federer takes a step towards the ball and unleashes a forehand that whizzes past Sampras for a clean winner. He crumples to his knees in disbelief and celebration. The BBC commentator proclaims the birth of a new star. The crowd rise as one to salute the new King. It is the dawn of a new era.. The Federer era.

It would be another couple of years before Federer would really hit the heights, and what heights! 17 grand slams from 24 finals, including 7 Wimbledon titles. Over 300 weeks as the number one player in the world, including 237 consecutive weeks at the top spot. 6 World Tour Final victories from 8 finals. 23 consecutive grand slam semi-finals; 34 consecutive grand slam quarter finals (and counting); a run of 24 consecutive finals victories in all tournaments, 65 consecutive match wins on grass, 56 consecutive match wins on hardcourt, five consecutive Wimbledon and US Open titles, a run of 18 grand slam finals out of 19 grand slam tournaments played, 21 masters titles.. and on and on.. all of them records, many of them by a considerable distance. There are at least half a dozen Wikipedia articles dedicated to the career achievements and complied statistics/records of Roger Federer. Peruse them at your own leisure - if you've got a few days to spare that is

But what makes Federer really stand out amongst the legends of tennis and indeed any sport is his unique game. Everything about his game is beautiful, everything is seemingly effortless. He glides around the court unhurried, with uncanny footwork and balletic grace. A sixth sense for being at the right place at the right time. He plays with perfect technique. Like an artist, Federer creates masterpieces; the court is his canvas. At heart, he is an attacking player who plays the game the right way; always looking to seize the initiative, to hit outright winners, to win spectacularly and brilliantly. He can hit every shot in the book. But he can also grind and play great defense. If it is so required he can switch to plan b, c, d, whatever it takes. In a sport dominated by super athletes, Federer at his peak was as fast and durable as they come. Modern tennis is played predominantly from the baseline (a stark difference to the tennis of Sampras's heydey which was mainly serve and volley based, with the majority of points won at the net) and Roger Federer can play the baseline game as well as anyone. But he can do so much more. He can mix spins and slices, lobs and dropshots, powerful winners and delicate touch, from the back of the court or at the net. It is this unique fusion of power, skill and aesthetic grace, that has captured the imagination of millions of fans around the world. Federer doesn't just win, he wins with style.

Federer's style and success has allowed him to transcend the sport in a way that few sportsmen in history can match. He is a record four time winner of the prestigious Laureus Sportsman of the Year Award. In a recent poll conducted across 25 countries with 51,000 participants he was voted as the second most trusted person in the world after Nelson Mandela. During the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony, Federer received the loudest cheer of the night when he carried the Swiss flag into the stadium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddojLWIjKK4 At the London Olympics Federer's pre-Olympic presser had more than 700 journalists, more than any other star at the games. He was mobbed by crowds during his recent tour of South America with political and sporting dignitaries (including Pele and Maradonna) feting him. He has the most impressive endorsement portfolio in all of sports including blue chip companies such as Nike, Mercedes-Benz (global ambassador), Wilson, Rolex, Credite Suisse, Gillette, Moet & Chandon etc.

But despite all the accolades Federer has remained a likeable, down to earth person. His fellow tennis professionals have voted him the winner of the annual Steffan Edberg Sportsmanship award a record eight times. He is the President of the ATP players council and in this capacity has campaigned for the benefit of all the players on the tour, including negotiating a fairer distribution of prize money for players who lose in the earlier rounds of the slams. The Roger Federer foundation is a charitable organisation with the stated mission of empowering children through education; it is involved in numerous projects throughout Africa.

It is incredible that with so many distractions (he's married with two young children to boot) Federer has still managed to stay at the top of such a global and competitive sport. As things stand he is the number 2 ranked player in the world and indeed was, just a few short months ago, the number one player in the world. Tennis has traditionally been a young man's sport but Roger Federer has redefined the parameters. An incredible work ethic, pure sporting genius with exemplary conduct has moulded one of the greatest sporting careers ever witnessed. And it's not over yet. Federer has declared his intention to play until the 2016 Olympic Games. There may yet be a few more pages to add to Wikipedia

Some quotes:

""[In the modern game], you're either a clay court specialist, a grass court specialist or a hard court specialist ... or you're Roger Federer"" - Jimmy Connors

""He is the most naturally talented player I have ever seen in my life"" - John McEnroe

""He moves like a whisper and executes like a wrecking ball"" - Nick Bollettieri (legendary tennis coach)

""He is the most perfect machine I have ever seen playing tennis"" - Diego Maradonna

""Federer plays shots that other players don't even think of"" - Ivan Lendl

""We are witnessing history. This is the most dominant athlete on planet earth today"" - Jim Courier (4 time grand slam champion)

""Federer is the best player in history - no other player has ever had so much quality"" - Rafael Nadal

""Roger's got too many shots, too much talent in one body. It's hardly fair that one person can do all this—his backhands, his forehands, volleys, serving, his court position. The way he moves around the court, you feel like he's barely touching the ground. That's the sign of a great champion."" - Rod Laver

""He's the best I've ever played against. There's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do except hit fairways, hit greens and make putts. Every shot has that sort of urgency on it. I've played a lot of them [other players], so many years; there's a safety zone, there's a place to get to, there's something to focus on, there's a way. Anything you try to do, he potentially has an answer for and it's just a function of when he starts pulling the triggers necessary to get you to change to that decision."" - Andre Agassi

""He's a real person. He's not an enigma. Off the court he's not trying to be somebody. If you met him at McDonald's and you didn't know who he was, you would have no idea that he's one of the best athletes in the world"" - Andy Roddick

""Today I was playing my best tennis, trying lots of different things, but nothing worked. When you're playing like that and he still comes up with all those great shots you really have to wonder if he's even from the same planet"" - Novak Djokovic



emancipator

ps - For those of you who haven't seen the The Fed Express in action, the following video might give you some idea of what he's all about
http://vimeo.com/40765561"

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by Chris W

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - "Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), three Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor

Look just as a warning. Anyone who says the champions league was easier prior to the whole group stage, letting teams who finished 18th in days runs the risk of being banned. No real reason beyond me being a Villa fan and the fact we won it back then.

Not particularly fair or reasonable but I never claimed to be either of those things.

There are plenty of good players in football history - but the true greats win big games by themselves.

I take it you didn't watch the first leg of the 2011 Champions League semi-final at the Bernebau? Or is that not a big enough game for you?

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

sodhat wrote:If Diego was capable of winning a World Cup - the "pinnacle" of football with his sheer brilliance, why could he not lead a team to win a weaker tournament?

It's the fact that he's done it at all that makes him one of the GOATS. He's done what very few players have ever had the ability to do. And Messi hasn't done it.

But why then can't Diego be bashed with the stick of not winning a European Cup?

Sure, it was a straight knockout in those days, but the World Cup wasn't. It had all the group stage nonsense that makes it easier to win that the CL does. What makes the 86 World Cup more of a barometer than the 2012 CL for example, where Messi scored 14 times?

3 CL wins is perhaps pushing the boundaries a tad then, point taken (although he was involved enough in earlier rounds/games to get a medal in 2006 and did play in the last 16 against Chelsea).

CL is arguably the pinnacle of the sport these days as the best club side in the world would likely beat the best international side more often than not. Were it possible, Barcelona Vs Spain would be a belter of a match.

I do think Messi is better at football than Federer is at Tennis but can accept the view that perhaps Federer does appear to be more all time GOAT at this point in his career than Messi.

Sticking with Messi for my own personal vote. No shame for Messi in being put out (if he is) by one such as Federer.

Federer's Gillette advert was dodgy though!

sodhat wrote:

Azzy Mahmood wrote:No restriction? What about transfer windows? Budgets? Wage limits? Fifa fair play? Financial stability? There are plenty of restrictions on club teams.

Messi has achieved nothing with Argentina. His direct comparator, Maradona, was player of the tournament in 86, scored 5 and set up 5, and won it as captain aged...25. Messi might score more goals, but he's not done it at all levels of the game like Diego did. Not to mention Pele of the 1,000 goals and 3 world cups.

For the top CL teams like Barca, Real, United, Chelsea et al, there seems to be far less of those restrictions that actually matter to them. Besides that, my main point is that you aren't restricted by who you can buy and thus the pool of talent is far larger and better teams will be formed than a national team could possibly be.

Diego never won a European Cup. That's playing devil's advocate, but all the same, he never "did it" at that level, supposedly the highest in all of European football.

I think one thing which is left out in the WC vs CL debate is the stakes.

I know the CL wins you more money but the world cup is by far the most prestigious competition in the world and it only comes around once every four years, whereas with the CL if you don't win it this year you can always try again next. The stakes are much higher, the pressure far greater, the winner gets the ultimate glory in probably all of sport at the WC.

Therefore it remains a greater feat, in my book, to channel your energies, peak and perform on the greatest stage. No amount of CL's can replace the prestige of winning the higher stakes WC.

superflyweight wrote:Who's the supposedly better opposition that Crouch has scored his goals against? A quick check on the FA webiste shows that Crouch has scored goals against France, Mexico, Egypt, Bulgaria, Andorra, Ukraine, Croatia, Austria, Estonia, Macedonia, Greece, Trinidad & Tobago, Jamiaca, Uruguay and Hungary.

There's 3/4decent teams in that list, France, Croatia, Urugay and Mexico. I don't have a list of who Messi's international goals have been against but I know he's scored against Brazil, Spain, Germany and Uruguay.

Yep, they're weaker opposition alright. Nonsensical argument.

It's about who you're playing against, not scoring against. England generally have a better quality of opponent than Argentina do, due to playing in Europe. Argentina might have Brazil and Uruguay, but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay...England regularly play better opposition than those teams. I know you can only play the opposition in front of you, but Messi doesn't exactly have a difficult level of opponent to play against, does he?

Federer's Gillette advert was dodgy though!.

Not as dodgy as Messi's Turkish Airlines advert though.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

superflyweight wrote:Who's the supposedly better opposition that Crouch has scored his goals against? A quick check on the FA webiste shows that Crouch has scored goals against France, Mexico, Egypt, Bulgaria, Andorra, Ukraine, Croatia, Austria, Estonia, Macedonia, Greece, Trinidad & Tobago, Jamiaca, Uruguay and Hungary.

There's 3/4decent teams in that list, France, Croatia, Urugay and Mexico. I don't have a list of who Messi's international goals have been against but I know he's scored against Brazil, Spain, Germany and Uruguay.

Yep, they're weaker opposition alright. Nonsensical argument.

It's about who you're playing against, not scoring against. England generally have a better quality of opponent than Argentina do, due to playing in Europe. Argentina might have Brazil and Uruguay, but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay...England regularly play better opposition than those teams. I know you can only play the opposition in front of you, but Messi doesn't exactly have a difficult level of opponent to play against, does he?

England play great teams such as Andorra, San Marino, Moldova...very difficult #headsgone

emancipator wrote:Interestingly ESPN (the American sports broadcaster) is also doing a GOAT athlete competition.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/index?page=greatestofalltime#top

This is their shortlisted 16 (in no particular order):

1) Michael Jordan
2) Tiger Woods
3) Michael Phelps
4) Anderson Silva
5) Muhammed Ali
6) Mark Allen
7) Bo Jackson
8) Roger Federer
9) Willie Mays
10) Jackie Robinson
11) Pele
12) Tony Hawk
13) Carl Lewis
14) Wayne Gretzky
15) Jim Brown
16) Dale Earnhardt Sr.

TBH there's a whole bunch of people on that list that I've never heard or only vaguely heard of.



emancipator

Interesting. There are 7 names on there I've never heard of. Are we sure Bo! Jackson isn't the Avid Merrion creation?

but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay

and you can categorically state that those teams are rubbish, can you?

Olly wrote:#headsgone

You sonofa*****

superflyweight wrote:

but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay

and you can categorically state that those teams are rubbish, can you?

When did I say that? Think you need to go back and read what I posted.

Mardadona has achieved more at international level than Messi but Messi beats him hands down, domestically. Messi, of course, has time to put things right.

VTR wrote:

emancipator wrote:Interestingly ESPN (the American sports broadcaster) is also doing a GOAT athlete competition.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/index?page=greatestofalltime#top

This is their shortlisted 16 (in no particular order):

1) Michael Jordan
2) Tiger Woods
3) Michael Phelps
4) Anderson Silva
5) Muhammed Ali
6) Mark Allen
7) Bo Jackson
8) Roger Federer
9) Willie Mays
10) Jackie Robinson
11) Pele
12) Tony Hawk
13) Carl Lewis
14) Wayne Gretzky
15) Jim Brown
16) Dale Earnhardt Sr.

TBH there's a whole bunch of people on that list that I've never heard or only vaguely heard of.



emancipator

Interesting. There are 7 names on there I've never heard of. Are we sure Bo! Jackson isn't the Avid Merrion creation?

And we questioned the inclusion of Gavin Hastings in the original 64...

That is one bizarre list - if I count right, there are 8 common between that and our 64, with only Federer, Pele and Gretsky as non-Americans. Shows that the USA has an almost entirely different sporting culture from the rest of the world.

Indeed he does. And if he does, he'll catapult right to the top 5 of GOATs in football.

No footballer has ever had the privilege to play in such a great club team though. All of that Barca team should consider themselves very, very lucky - particularly Messi, as it has allowed him to play the way he does.

As if Tony Hawk made that list

emancipator wrote:Interestingly ESPN (the American sports broadcaster) is also doing a GOAT athlete competition.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/index?page=greatestofalltime#top

This is their shortlisted 16 (in no particular order):

1) Michael Jordan
2) Tiger Woods
3) Michael Phelps
4) Anderson Silva
5) Muhammed Ali
6) Mark Allen
7) Bo Jackson
8) Roger Federer
9) Willie Mays
10) Jackie Robinson
11) Pele
12) Tony Hawk
13) Carl Lewis
14) Wayne Gretzky
15) Jim Brown
16) Dale Earnhardt Sr.

TBH there's a whole bunch of people on that list that I've never heard or only vaguely heard of.



emancipator

How does TONY HAWK get into this?

dummy_half wrote:

Roller_Coaster wrote:3 CL wins is perhaps pushing the boundaries a tad then, point taken (although he was involved enough in earlier rounds/games to get a medal in 2006 and did play in the last 16 against Chelsea). - not the only case of slight exageration that has happened on the GOAT thread

CL is arguably the pinnacle of the sport these days as the best club side in the world would likely beat the best international side more often than not. Were it possible, Barcelona Vs Spain would be a belter of a match. - I think most would agree with you (although as you say, Spain could probably beat all but the very best club sides)

I do think Messi is better at football than Federer is at Tennis but can accept the view that perhaps Federer does appear to be more all time GOAT at this point in his career than Messi. - Not sure I agree with you there. Federer in his prime was simply extraordinary and is one of the most skilled exponents of any sport in the modern era. Both undoubtedly have the wow factor, but for me Federer simply reached the heights more consistently.

Sticking with Messi for my own personal vote. No shame for Messi in being put out (if he is) by one such as Federer. - Personal opinion, and certainly not the most outrageous one the GOAT threads have seen (Hans's case for Lebron James as GOAT surely wins that by a country mile )

Federer's Gillette advert was dodgy though! - Good point well made...

Regarding Messi being better at football than Fed at tennis I would also disagree.

Fed can do everything on a tennis court to a very high/outstanding level.

There's a great article in the NYT talking about Federer's movement. Here's an extract:

Describing the footwork is one thing. Quantifying it is another. This falls to David Bailey, an Australian who prefers the title footwork specialist to coach.

Bailey contends footwork is an underdeveloped part of tennis, and in inventing the Bailey Method, he studied more than 30,000 clips of tennis movement. Borrowing from the instructional style of Bruce Lee, Bailey broke tennis footwork into what he called 15 contact moves — basically athletic movement when striking the ball — and he provides a corresponding clip for each in his instructional videos.

A solid pro performs seven contact moves at a high level, according to his research. Three are offensive moves, two defensive and two rally. And these moves define a player’s style, whether as a baseliner, for example, or a clay-court specialist.

Federer is the only pro Bailey studied who performs all 15 moves at a high level. If Bailey wanted, he could use Federer for each video clip.

“He has a 360-degree skill set,” Bailey said. “He’s fantastic going forward, backward and laterally, on all surfaces. There’s no movement wasted.”


Here's the full article - a very good read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/sports/tennis/31federer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This article only deals with Fed's movement on a court. He's just as proficient with all his shots.

Messi at most can be considered to bethe most skilled in his position.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay

and you can categorically state that those teams are rubbish, can you?

When did I say that? Think you need to go back and read what I posted.

No need to re-read, it was more than implied by the following statement:

but Messi doesn't exactly have a difficult level of opponent to play against, does he?.

dummy_half wrote:

VTR wrote:

emancipator wrote:Interestingly ESPN (the American sports broadcaster) is also doing a GOAT athlete competition.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sportsnation/feature/index?page=greatestofalltime#top

This is their shortlisted 16 (in no particular order):

1) Michael Jordan
2) Tiger Woods
3) Michael Phelps
4) Anderson Silva
5) Muhammed Ali
6) Mark Allen
7) Bo Jackson
8) Roger Federer
9) Willie Mays
10) Jackie Robinson
11) Pele
12) Tony Hawk
13) Carl Lewis
14) Wayne Gretzky
15) Jim Brown
16) Dale Earnhardt Sr.

TBH there's a whole bunch of people on that list that I've never heard or only vaguely heard of.



emancipator

Interesting. There are 7 names on there I've never heard of. Are we sure Bo! Jackson isn't the Avid Merrion creation?

And we questioned the inclusion of Gavin Hastings in the original 64...

That is one bizarre list - if I count right, there are 8 common between that and our 64, with only Federer, Pele and Gretsky as non-Americans. Shows that the USA has an almost entirely different sporting culture from the rest of the world.

The Americans really live in a cocoon.

To say that ESPN list is insular would be an understatement. Most are from the big 4 American sports. Now I know there's been accusations on here of British bias but overall the list is way more balanced than ESPN's pile of dog do.

Tony Hawk is a comically bad pick, a 40 year old man on a skateboard is embarassing and any mention next to Ali and Pele is insulting.

I'm surprised Hulk Hogan isn't on that list!

Stella wrote:I'm surprised Hulk Hogan isn't on that list!

They may as well go the whole hog and have Rocky Balboa on there!

Also Mark Allen: not even a top 5 snooker player playing today*

*I am aware it is not that Mark Allen

Stella wrote:I'm surprised Hulk Hogan isn't on that list!

It's a tragic list.

superflyweight wrote:

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay

and you can categorically state that those teams are rubbish, can you?

When did I say that? Think you need to go back and read what I posted.

No need to re-read, it was more than implied by the following statement:

but Messi doesn't exactly have a difficult level of opponent to play against, does he?.

Difficult being the operative word. Colombia aren't a difficult opponent. Nor are Peru or Chile. I never once said 'rubbish', as that would do them an injustice.

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Azzy Mahmood wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

but they also have Venezuela, Chile, Colombia, Peru, Paraguay

and you can categorically state that those teams are rubbish, can you?

When did I say that? Think you need to go back and read what I posted.

No need to re-read, it was more than implied by the following statement:

but Messi doesn't exactly have a difficult level of opponent to play against, does he?.

Difficult being the operative word. Colombia aren't a difficult opponent. Nor are Peru or Chile. I never once said 'rubbish', as that would do them an injustice.

...are they any less difficult than Poland, Ukraine, Montenegro?

Yes they are, in my opinion. Poland are better than those three teams, Ukraine maybe equal, and Montenegro are better too in my eyes.

very similar tbh..

ukranie and montengroi my top 2 out of the lot.(all 6). There have given england some very tough games recently.. Poland i allways fel comfortable against..

VTR wrote:To say that ESPN list is insular would be an understatement. Most are from the big 4 American sports. Now I know there's been accusations on here of British bias but overall the list is way more balanced than ESPN's pile of dog do.

Tony Hawk is a comically bad pick, a 40 year old man on a skateboard is embarassing and any mention next to Ali and Pele is insulting.

I totally agree with you untill you get to Tony hawk.. he is a legend- trust me - serious skillz

ESPN and their poll shouldn't be taken too seriously. They are a bit of a hyperbole machine and they are clearly tailoring their poll to the US, because that's who actually votes.

Wow reading back and all the hate for hawk.. I might understand if you lads watched skateboarding or used to skateboard, and mentioned other skateboarders better.. But i have this feeling you havent...

just watch him.. skill level and fear level is out of this world.. I am suprised by the shock tbh

VTR wrote: They may as well go the whole hog and have Rocky Balboa on there!

You're only half joking, Sylvester Stallone is actually in the Boxing Hall of Fame!

mystiroakey wrote:Wow reading back and all the hate for hawk.. I might understand if you lads watched skateboarding or used to skateboard, and mentioned other skateboarders better.. But i have this feeling you havent...

just watch him.. skill level and fear level is out of this world.. I am suprised by the shock tbh

Is skateboarding classed as a sport. Genuine question.

I owned a Tony Hawk game once, and I've seen him in action. I used to skateboard as a kid. But for Tony Hawk to be named in the top 15 of all time athletic greats is a complete joke. Daredevil top 15, yes. Crazy top 15, yes. But athletic, hell no.

in the same way snowboarding is, gymnastics is and ice skating is

judged sports are still sports..

azzy erm- firstly you have totally missed the point- its just there sport goat list(forget the term athlete it clearly isnt applicable..

no.2 is TIGER WOODS-- who is the greater athlete out of him or hawk!!!! its a no brainer

secondly if you dont underatnd the athletism needed for skateboarding- i have to admit you probally havent seen Tony hawk skate ever!!

I've seen Hawk skate and very good he is too. It isn't surprising though as he carried on something into his adult life that most people give up aged 10, giving himself a lot of time to get better than anyone else at it.

My opinion is that they are about the same (although Peru are rubbish). Montenegro probably the pick of all of the teams but Columbia are getting back to being a decent team any may well push them close.

It's just covenient to say that England face more difficult oppponents when there's probably not a huge amount in it. England benefit from a top seeding in qualifying for the World Cup and Euros and usually have a fairly straighforward time of it in qualifying. There's no similar seeding system in CONMEBOL and Argentina have to play everyone home and away. It's a bit more straightforward this time as Brazil aren't competing but it's a notoriously difficult qualifying process and involves some horrendous away trips - La Paz in Bolivia being a particular nightmare of a venue. Uruguay finished 5th in 2010 CONMEBOL (behind Paraguay and Chile) and had to go through a play-off against Costa Rica but still managed a third place at the World Cup in South Africa.

VTR wrote:I've seen Hawk skate and very good he is too. It isn't surprising though as he carried on something into his adult life that most people give up aged 10, giving himself a lot of time to get better than anyone else at it.

in america its clearly a bigger sport than it is here, and there is a pro circuit were they earn good money..

I respect the lads talent.. should he be on a top world 15 list- not on mine for sure.. but i like the diversity..

We can see what espn have done- they have picked the most popular US sports and stuck the best name for each on there..

Check us out, in the middle of a discussion about the sporting GOAT, and we're talking about Tony Hawk, Rocky Balboa and a comparison of the relative quality of the Colombian and Montenegran national football teams

Well maybe our concentration levels are dwindling azzy....................

Rowley wrote:

VTR wrote: They may as well go the whole hog and have Rocky Balboa on there!

You're only half joking, Sylvester Stallone is actually in the Boxing Hall of Fame!

That's brilliant! He should be nowhere near it though: lost to Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who in my IMHO were honest journeymen at best. Also fought on too long as shown in the pile of pap that was Rocky Balboa the film.

Hey I agree with you on Woods, if they're terming it 'athletes' then he has no place in the top 10,000

I hope this doesn't turn into a discussion on him now

Well put it this way Azzy my two main sports(or pastimes!!) as a child was golf and skateboarding(yes i am very confussed!!) and I know which one was more athletic!!

That's the weirdest upbringing I've ever seen

Mine were football and cricket, with a dash of snooker thrown in for good measure. A good, traditional English lad I am.

Oakey, I've actually skated with Tony Hawk, smashed into him in the big bowl in Livingstone.

Some of those guys, Hawk, Miller, Way, Glifberg, Mullen are amazing. But it's a judged sport so we can't have them in.

lost to Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang who in my IMHO were honest journeymen at best.

Journeymen? Pah! I spit on your crazy opinion. Creed had cleaned out the division which he had ruled for years and was reduced to finding an opponent with a romantic back story just so the fight would sell. Little was he know that Father Time and an inspired Balboa were about to catch up with him. Lang was awesome. He'd murder most fighters to death.

super_realist wrote:Oakey, I've actually skated with Tony Hawk, smashed into him in the big bowl in Livingstone.

Some of those guys, Hawk, Miller, Way, Glifberg, Mullen are amazing. But it's a judged sport so we can't have them in.

decent!!!!

There is only one skater worthy of mentioning, the peerless Geoff Rowley