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Does Colour still matter ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:39 pm

I grew up in the early 80's where we had the limited but explosive Gerry Cooney making millions out of being a White Heavyweight. Obviously his Irish heritage helped him too.....Harry Arroyo used to get lot's of ink even though he had the poor-at-the-time IBF light strap....His successor the black Jimmy Paul was INVISIBLE!!

How far have we moved on since then???............Does Colour still matter?? Does a good white fighter have more marketing potential than a good black one??? If it does ... Is it the case that there are more quality BLACK fighters... so that is what makes a WHITE fighter have more appeal. Or is it more basic???

Does colour still matter??? I think unfortunately it does!!............

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:45 pm

Can open, worms everywhere, Az apoplectic with rage.

Anyway, is Froch seemingly a bigger draw than Ward these days due to his skin colour or are there other factors in play such as blind national fervour, canny promotors and the perception that one gives more value for money despite the obvious gulf in talent?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:49 pm

Ward is exceptional...........

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:53 pm

Ward is exceptional...agreed, but can't draw flies!

Froch is a solid value for money fighter but he's not in Ward's league...and yet, Froch is the one who seems to be raking in the fans etc. Surely it can't be down to colour.

The KBros popularity can't simply be down to skin colour can it?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 2:55 pm

The Klits don't sell in America...so it shows that just being White doesn't sell per se....

But attractive and White probably outsells being black and attractive still.....

Hopefully because whites are a minority in Boxing at the top level

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:00 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Klits don't sell in America...so it shows that just being White doesn't sell per se....
But attractive and White probably outsells being black and attractive still.....

Hopefully because whites are a minority in Boxing at the top level

True, but Ward doesn't sell outside America (cynics may say he doesn't sell INSIDE America either)

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:01 pm

Well what point are you trying to make????......

Maybe he's boring stylistically!! Mayweather sells..

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Post by huw Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:03 pm

Maybe Hatton is a good example, would he have appealed to the fan base he picked up had he been black?

It was his working class background, guiness drinking football supporting image that got him as many fans as his fighting style.

Obvioulsy I would hope that had he been a different colour it would have made no difference to his popularity but in his case I'm not so sure.

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Well what point are you trying to make????......

Maybe he's boring stylistically!! Mayweather sells..

Mayweather didn't used to sell...and neither his talent or colour have altered over the years!

The point I'm trying to make without wishing to get bogged down in this topic is that colour shouldn't be a factor and is virtually impossible to prove as being a selling point or otherwise without taking many other factors into consideration.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:11 pm

we all know color shouldn't be a factor!!

Cooney is proof!!

Four posts and you've written nothing of consequence..

Hatton's background and color may have helped in my opinion HUW but he was exciting too.............

However Benn sold and he was black....

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:22 pm

Cooney was in the 80s Truss.

Nigel Benn appealed to the football-supporting masses in the 90s

Hatton appealed to the football supporting masses in the 00s

Froch & Haye appeal now.

It's because they're exciting and knock people out. It's got the square root of fanny adams to do with colour...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:23 pm

Bit patronising to say they appealed to the footballing masses??

WTF.........

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:26 pm

I'm talking about the fan bases they picked up and fact they were often promoted by the tabloids, which were footballing-heavy. Perhaps it was a poor analogy, but most football fans I have met prefer a good KO in a fight to a points win in the noble art.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:29 pm

That's because of the hooligan element that is prevalent over here.......and absent where I come from.......

But we can't all have class........ Cool

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:we all know color shouldn't be a factor!!

Cooney is proof!!

Four posts and you've written nothing of consequence..
Hatton's background and color may have helped in my opinion HUW but he was exciting too.............

However Benn sold and he was black....

Try not to resort to insults TRUSS. You've broached this topic on a number of occasions and the answer is generally the same. There are simply too many factors relating to a fighter to say with any certainty that his colour is a major factor in his popularity. Promotors may thrive on selling the "angry black man fighting purported white oppression" but that's not a colour issue in itself. That's shameless manipulation and greed therefore another factor.

Khan sold in the UK but was it due to his youth, his showing at the Olympics, his skill level, his canny promotor, media interest or his skin colour? Over in the US it's a different story with him but is is solely due to his colour?

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Post by Mr Bounce Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That's because of the hooligan element that is prevalent over here.......and absent where I come from.......

But we can't all have class........ Cool

Agreed!! Whistle

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:35 pm

Not resorting to insults.......You having added anything of consequence...

Khan's ethnicity played a great part in his appeal...why he was box office pre-title..

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Post by huw Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:36 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:we all know color shouldn't be a factor!!

Cooney is proof!!

Four posts and you've written nothing of consequence..

Hatton's background and color may have helped in my opinion HUW but he was exciting too.............

However Benn sold and he was black....

A very good point and one that I'm happy to concede on. Somtimes forget Benn's level of support but Hatton's really was fanatical support, having said that until the poorly toe Haye also generated a similar amount of interest. So on that basis I'm confident that colour generally doesn't make as much of a difference at least in the UK but the support of the tabloids can be the difference for the fighters here.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:38 pm

Think Haye's appeal was down to the division he was in and the lack of British success there........in the past!!

Since Bruno there hadn't been a True Brit who had held a decent title..

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not resorting to insults.......You having added anything of consequence...

Khan's ethnicity played a great part in his appeal...why he was box office pre-title..

His silver medal was a bigger factor than his skin colour...same with Audley and Degale. Even now, with every Olympian appearing on every TV show going, they dredge up the Olympic feel good factor irrespective of their skin colour. However, I think (or should I say hope) that we determine our like or dislike of a fighter on more esoteric factors than the colour of his/her skin.

Mind you, a quick trawl through the comments of any illegal fight stream or YouTube puts paid to that idea.

In fact, without wishing to appear disrespectful, it's saddening to think that it should even be a topic isn't it?

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Post by superflyweight Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:46 pm

Since Bruno there hadn't been a True Brit who had held a decent title...

More cans open - more worms everywhere.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:47 pm

Degale has gold and he hasn't the same fan base..Khan had...

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Post by Seanusarrilius Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:50 pm

Colour still matters in America. This is not a jibe at Truss or anybody else, but Americans never stop talking about race.

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Post by Guest Thu 14 Feb 2013, 3:51 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Degale has gold and he hasn't the same fan base..Khan had...

DeGale is a massive "implement" and despite some of his early quotes, Khan came across as quite level headed and sensible in comparison...another contributing factor perhaps?



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Post by Strongback Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:05 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:That's because of the hooligan element that is prevalent over here.......and absent where I come from.......

But we can't all have class........ Cool


Are you still annoyed your old high school was taken over by African Americans?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:06 pm

Saunders......Gavin......wouldn't have been PPV pre-title on SKY.. we can be fairly sure..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:07 pm

I'll ignore that cheap racist jibe/insinuation.....

Just put it down to the ignorance of the sender..

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Post by Strongback Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:09 pm

You seem to have no end of fascination in race.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:11 pm

If you have nothing to add..go away..

You bore me..

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Post by manos de piedra Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:13 pm

Not really colour as much as ethnicity and nationality these days. I dont think opportunities are denied for racial reasons anymore. But obviously being hispanic in the U.S or Eastern European in Germany will give a fighter a bigger fanbase and increase their financial power. The WBC tend to favour the hispanics, the IBF and WBO traditionally seemed to favour Europeans more. Green is the most colour as they say.

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Post by Strongback Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If you have nothing to add..go away..

You bore me..


The truth is boring.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:30 pm

Not as boring as you..

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Post by Strongback Thu 14 Feb 2013, 4:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not as boring as you..


That's what Joanne said.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne Thu 14 Feb 2013, 7:45 pm

I think Manos basically nailed it.

I'd use Froch as an example it doesn't matter much though. He's done more than Haye or Khan and done it in exciting fashion, yet he's not as well known as either, despite Haye being inactive and Khan losing two of his last three while Froch has apparently hit a hot streak and done it on sky sports 1.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Thu 14 Feb 2013, 7:55 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:I think Manos basically nailed it.

I'd use Froch as an example it doesn't matter much though. He's done more than Haye or Khan and done it in exciting fashion, yet he's not as well known as either, despite Haye being inactive and Khan losing two of his last three while Froch has apparently hit a hot streak and done it on sky sports 1.

You are forgetting that Froch has the chrisma of a potato.

Since Ali boxing fans and sports fans have been entertained by ethnic minorities in boxing. They add a little bit more then the standard 'may the best man win' attitude of your standard white fighter. Blacks had to work a little harder to get peoples interest in them since the days of Johnson. Ali continued that, Tyson magnified it so networks and promoters know that it sells. look at Hearn and Eubanks people react to black fighters differently then they do to most white fighters.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:03 pm

Yeah Froch has little charisma, but if colour played an important role and whites were pre destined to be more popular then that wouldn't matter.

And Khan's personality is hardly magnetic, and he's achieved less, yet he's more well known.

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Post by jimdig Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:04 pm

When I think of popular fighters, black boxers always come to mind first. So maybe your on to something. I wonder is talent a factor? Probably not.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:13 pm

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Yeah Froch has little charisma, but if colour played an important role and whites were pre destined to be more popular then that wouldn't matter.

And Khan's personality is hardly magnetic, and he's achieved less, yet he's more well known.

Khan is well known because of the Athen Olympics.
It will take a lot for a white fighter to take the world by storm. So many years of black dominance has seen to that. If you want an interesting example then think back to Vinnie Paz argument with Roy Jones Jnr regarding black preferment in boxing.

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Post by jimdig Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:42 pm

The two best heavyweights in the world can't get couldn't sell stamps in America. Bet if they were black it'd be different. Athletic talented black heavyweights seem to be what the American market favour.

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Post by horizontalhero Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:55 pm

It's certainly a factor, but perhaps less so than in the past, but if you were going to make the blue print for a popular fighter either side of the pond he's white, blue collar from a community with a solid blue collar community, he fights on the front foot, has a big heart, likes tear up. He's Hatton, Mancini, Pazienza, Mcguigan.

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Post by Atila Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:55 pm

jimdig wrote:The two best heavyweights in the world can't get couldn't sell stamps in America. Bet if they were black it'd be different. Athletic talented black heavyweights seem to be what the American market favour.
I don't think this is true. The Klits aren't just marketable to Americans that's all. Most Americans are very insular and are unlikely to take to foreign stars whatever colour they are. If a couple of white American fighters made it to the top they'd be heavily marketed I'm sure.

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Post by jimdig Thu 14 Feb 2013, 8:59 pm

Toungue firmly in cheek, as a rebut to the premise that things haven't progressed from the ugliness of Cooney v Holmes.

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Post by John Bloody Wayne Thu 14 Feb 2013, 9:02 pm

Yeah, onetwo Khan has some things in his favour, but I believe that, given their relative success, if whites were favoured then Froch would certainly be the bigger name. Haye's a heavyweight and has the gift of the gab, so it's easy to see why he's ahead.

A white American heavyweight champion would be immensely popular, but when we look back to the good ol' days of the big men they are almost ALL african americans, so I wouldn't argue with blackness being an advantage at heavyweight in the states. Makes people think of the names that made the sport HUGE: Louis, Ali, Tyson etc.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist Fri 15 Feb 2013, 1:21 am

Unless someone can give an example of how whites are treated more favourably I just cannot agree. Plenty of examples of white fans following non-white boxers eg Benn, Haye, Bruno, Khan, Lewis.

I cannot think of a recent example where colour has affected a boxers popularity.

I think that nationality plays a major role in how successful a boxers career is in terms of number of fans. If the Klitschkos were British or American they would be seen as national idols in those 2 countries. Instead they are Ukranian, based in Germany and thus they are national icons in those two countries.

Amir Khan is British but if he was born in France and grew up in france I very much doubt he would have any British fans who would travel to Vegas to see him fight. It's purely because he is British why those British fans pay a lot of money to go and see him.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 15 Feb 2013, 9:27 pm

Gerry Cooney....dumbass.

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri 15 Feb 2013, 9:42 pm

1982 was before most of us on this board were born Truss. 30 years is probably not recent to him or me or anyone who wasnt old enough to appreciate what was going on.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 15 Feb 2013, 9:50 pm

Matthew Hilton.................Tommy Morrison..............................

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Fri 15 Feb 2013, 10:22 pm

You keep naming fighters from a fair time ago, which current boxers are there?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist Fri 15 Feb 2013, 11:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Gerry Cooney....dumbass.

why do you constantly insult people? Not my fault that your thread has been shot down.

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Post by Atila Sat 16 Feb 2013, 5:47 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You keep naming fighters from a fair time ago, which current boxers are there?
Old age must be getting to me too. For some reason I think of Gerry Cooney as being a recent fighter also. I guess it's because I was following boxing at the time he fought Holmes. Laugh

OK, so you want more recent fighters. Hmm, what about Ricky Hatton? He had this image as being a "man of the people". I doubt he would have had this image if he wasn't white. I doubt no matter who Amir Khan fights and how good he looks doing it, whether he could ever have the kind of fanatical following that Hatton had.

Kelly Pavlik is another one. HBO promoted this guy like he was going to be the star of boxing and I never really though he was that good. He always looked a little clumsy to me.

Joe Messi is another.

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