Does Colour still matter ??

First topic message reminder :

I grew up in the early 80's where we had the limited but explosive Gerry Cooney making millions out of being a White Heavyweight. Obviously his Irish heritage helped him too.....Harry Arroyo used to get lot's of ink even though he had the poor-at-the-time IBF light strap....His successor the black Jimmy Paul was INVISIBLE!!

How far have we moved on since then???............Does Colour still matter?? Does a good white fighter have more marketing potential than a good black one??? If it does ... Is it the case that there are more quality BLACK fighters... so that is what makes a WHITE fighter have more appeal. Or is it more basic???

Does colour still matter??? I think unfortunately it does!!............

All meant in good jest Zoomy, doesn't really matter, this is a thread about race, at some point Azania is going to join and when that happens it will be locked or deleted within about 30 seconds.

I don't think colour matters when it comes to a boxers success.
A talented boxer will achieve good things regardless of race.

However, I do think it matters in terms of support.

Humans by nature are quite tribalistic and tend to support athletes whom they can most relate to - this can be both cultural and racial.

It may even be subconscious but it does exist.

J.Benson II wrote:
Humans by nature are quite tribalistic and tend to support athletes whom they can most relate to -

Given most heavyweights currently are fat, useless and devoid of any athletic ability I should be spoilt for choice

Rowley wrote:When you're coming across as the calm one when you and him cross swords Truss you know things are getting bad.

I'm calm as cucumber. Maybe you guys have lost your edge. I remember 606 being a combat zone.

It seems to me that I'm throwing out a few controversial thoughts and you guys are getting over sensitive.

I'm not always serious but I am being serious when I say this debate is quite civilized for an internet forum and what I'm saying is in keeping with the theme of the thread - racism in boxing.

A forum where everyone agrees with each other would be boring.

azumah HOF wrote:

Rowley wrote:When you're coming across as the calm one when you and him cross swords Truss you know things are getting bad.

Bit of naughty comment for an administrator that! Surely!!!

Jeff doesn't need be the "voice of reason". The guys can debate pretty well on their own.

I can't help being a sensitive guy!!

I cried when Bambi's Mother got shot.........

If this is going to develop into an old style 606 rumble in the jungle I AM ALL FOR THAT!!! Strongly you are right, things got boring!!! Even Truss I had to admire back in his day for being able to go toe to toe for at least 2 weeks non stop on the same thread!!!! LETS DO THIS..... WAR BABY!!!!

azumah HOF wrote:If this is going to develop into an old style 606 rumble in the jungle I AM ALL FOR THAT!!! Strongly you are right, things got boring!!! Even Truss I had to admire back in his day for being able to go toe to toe for at least 2 weeks non stop on the same thread!!!! LETS DO THIS..... WAR BABY!!!!

No thanks.

Who said you were considered or invited Victor.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Who said you were considered or invited Victor.

Sounds rather childish, probably why it interests you.

Must be your bed time soon lad.

Not really a colour based comment. But isn't the abuse that fury gets for his traveller roots the today's acceptable bigotry? Any traveller really, although I can't think of any other prevalent boxers. But I'd bet pikey doesn't even offend the swear filter.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Must be your bed time soon lad.

Well done.

Victor.... you say no thanks and then start sticking the boot in!!

Truss, i wouldnt agree completely with you about colour still playing a part. In every walk of life you'rre going to find racists and people who are predisposed to take offence with a certain colour or nationality of person but thankfully instances of these natures have become less and less frequent.

If you look at the top 10 p4p fighters then it is a mixture of colours and creeds with no correlation between nationalities and popularity or recognition in my eyes at least.

On the flipside, is it as easy to use ethnicity as a selling point anymore? Do Americans still buy into the Irish connections of fighters or has it not being tested too much lately? Although we only have the likes of McLoskey, Lee, Macklin with Frampton looking to make big waves.

Do you have to be racist to want a white guy to win over a black man....??? or vice -versa..??

We have seen Washington and Berry say how proud they are to have won the Oscar and how proud of their race/color they are too.......and I'm happy with that..

By admitting you want the white/black guy to win or you are following someone because of their color seems to be misconstrued as a racist thing.....

For me I don't see why you can't want the white guy to win because he's white!!

Why can't white people be proud of their color!! everyone else can...

I dont know Truss its something I havent really given too much thought to. I suppose it comes down to what you consider yourself and there shouldn@t be anything wrong with being proud of what colour you are.

However, I personally, take my pride from my Irish nationality and who I am as a person and I know you're more than proud of being American. It's something I've never considered, being white, in a predominantly white country then it's probably something just taken as standard instead of being a source of pride.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Victor.... you say no thanks and then start sticking the boot in!!

Vicky ... No cojones!!!

When Lennox Lewis first stated that he wanted to fight professionally as a British fighter, it was met with a little bit of skepticism in the press, and even when Lewis was a world champ some fans still wouldn't accept him as British and some still don't. For me, he was born in England so if he wanted to fight as a Brit then I had no problem with that.

I used to think that his colour played a small part in the "lack of love" that he received in the beginning....after all, British people are thought of as white, crooked teeth..etc.

Do any of you guys not feel that Lewis would have been more quickly accepted as a Brit if he had been white?

Atila wrote:When Lennox Lewis first stated that he wanted to fight professionally as a British fighter, it was met with a little bit of skepticism in the press, and even when Lewis was a world champ some fans still wouldn't accept him as British and some still don't. For me, he was born in England so if he wanted to fight as a Brit then I had no problem with that.

I used to think that his colour played a small part in the "lack of love" that he received in the beginning....after all, British people are thought of as white, crooked teeth..etc.

Do any of you guys not feel that Lewis would have been more quickly accepted as a Brit if he had been white?

Only comparison I can think of is the footballer Owen Hargreaves. He was white and similar situation to lewis and he was met with a lot of negativity.

Atila wrote:When Lennox Lewis first stated that he wanted to fight professionally as a British fighter, it was met with a little bit of skepticism in the press, and even when Lewis was a world champ some fans still wouldn't accept him as British and some still don't. For me, he was born in England so if he wanted to fight as a Brit then I had no problem with that.

I used to think that his colour played a small part in the "lack of love" that he received in the beginning....after all, British people are thought of as white, crooked teeth..etc.

Do any of you guys not feel that Lewis would have been more quickly accepted as a Brit if he had been white?

Not really to be honest. He boxed for Canada in the Olympics, which is significant, and his ties to Britain were fairly weak at the time. I think its easy to see why against Bruno he was very much seen as the outsider. I also think Lewis himself doesnt genuinely see himself as British but more of a mix of Britain, Canada and Jamaica. His sudden declaration for Britain at the time was seen by some as more a marketing ploy and I think there was an element of truth in that.

I've not for one second thought colour is an issue in boxing.

Most of the well-known, well-loved and successful fighters are black.

In some countries it may be a localised issue but normally a charcater's personality shines through regardless of skin tone.

Bruno is one of the UK's most well loved fighters when certianly not one of our best.

Hatton was popular because he was a down to earth guy with a huge following from his home city.

A fighter's style and performance in the ring attracts fans at a first instance.

Still think people mistrust people of a different color and it makes it harder to support in certain cases........

Being honest..........If I was walking down an alleyway in Boston late one night and saw two black guys half way down it...my adrenalin would be pumping much more than it would be If there were two white guys...

I think to a certain extent that applies now If we are honest!!

We are still happier with our own color in most cases..Racism has been replaced with tolerism..

Understand Trussman and I guess I agree (if Boston is replaced by Brixton!).

But with myself I think it's different to sport in general. For example in football many/most clubs have a racist element but they still get behind their players if they are black in the same way they may be racist but still get behind their fighter because he's their nationality.

I agree with your last paragraph.

Simple.

Within sport colour matters to racists.... and racists only!

Partisanism is always likely to affect boxing to some extent and I would say nationality and even personality is by far a bigger factor in supporting than race these days.

Mate you make statements without thinking sometime..

It mattered to Washington and Berry the fact they were black and won Oscars..enough to mention it at the Oscars

So they are are okay...??

I wish instead of hitting and running you'd explain your blunt statements..

Why can't you support someone of your color without being racist??

Racism - "A belief that race is the determinant of human traits..and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a certain race"

Why can't I support the white man and still respect and not think I'm superior to a guy of a different race..

and not be a racist??

manos de piedra wrote:Partisanism is always likely to affect boxing to some extent and I would say nationality and even personality is by far a bigger factor in supporting than race these days.

Agreed.

I agree too...................But folly to suggest color doesn't play a part..........

Bnp has members in the European parliament and grossed a million votes...in the european elections........

Must add that all my favorite fighters have been black...........and that I wanted Curry to beat Jones..........Bramble to beat Mancini...........Holmes to beat Cooney etc......

However must say I don't necessary think because I guy supports his own skin color he is a racist...........

Valero's Conscience wrote:I've not for one second thought colour is an issue in boxing.

Most of the well-known, well-loved and successful fighters are black.

In some countries it may be a localised issue but normally a charcater's personality shines through regardless of skin tone.

Bruno is one of the UK's most well loved fighters when certianly not one of our best.

Hatton was popular because he was a down to earth guy with a huge following from his home city.

A fighter's style and performance in the ring attracts fans at a first instance.

Lennox Lewis called Frank Bruno an "Uncle Tom". I hate that term though I would say the reasons for Bruno's popularity are not simply he was a good fighter and he did a good interview.

In line with the thread I also remember some comments at the time of Bruno's popularity along the lines of "I don't like to see a white women with a black man." those were the days when black and white couples rarely appeared together on TV game shows.

The fact that Bruno was a huge intimidating black guy that was personable obviously endeared him to some the way.... a huge maneating tiger that has a lovable nature is endearing....

Bruno was going against the stereotype at that time perhaps........

Things though have moved on..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The fact that Bruno was a huge intimidating black guy that was personable obviously endeared him to some the way.... a huge maneating tiger that has a lovable nature is endearing....

Bruno was going against the stereotype at that time perhaps........

Things though have moved on..

Bruno was an establishment lickass though.

You sound like azania more and more each day..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You sound like azania more and more each day..

Don't really know Azania's views.

Bruno was an apologetic humble black man. He fitted right in.

Or he played the game..............and tripled his purses...

Depends which way you look at it...

Did he sell out............I think he probably felt he did and it added to his mental issues later on..

Me... I think he was smart...It's a hard business..

I find that colour is only really an issue for nonwhites who have a chip on their shoulder and like to blame their colour for failings they have had in their life.

That and white people who like to take offence on behalf of others.

So yes it is still an issue in my view, but by over sensitive types who like to try and play the blame game.

Or he was a jolly giant who greeted everyone with warmth and was the only serious Heavyweight contender the country had for decades or more. The heavyweight division is gold dust to someone with a personality that either can capture the audiences belief in his ability or can be liked enough to get a lot of fans rooting for him. Haye in particular exploited that, and made tons of money while doing the square root of Frak all in the heavy division. Frank was knocking over nobodies and this fed into the feeling that he could win. Then towards the end it became, like Henman a desperate need for the British to see him win rather than him winning for Britain. So close, a couple of times and when he won it was glorious.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find that colour is only really an issue for nonwhites who have a chip on their shoulder and like to blame their colour for failings they have had in their life.

That and white people who like to take offence on behalf of others.

So yes it is still an issue in my view, but by over sensitive types who like to try and play the blame game.

Are you Richard Littlejohn by any chance Jack?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mate you make statements without thinking sometime..

It mattered to Washington and Berry the fact they were black and won Oscars..enough to mention it at the Oscars

So they are are okay...??

I wish instead of hitting and running you'd explain your blunt statements..

Why can't you support someone of your color without being racist??

Huh? You CAN support someone of your colour without being a racist? I didn't say that?

If you like someone because of their colour, and their colour only, irrespective of their sporting qualities (or lack of them), then you are a racist.

If you dislike a sports person because of their colour, and their colour only, irrespective of their sporting qualities (or lack of them), then you are a racist.

Racism seems to be about ascribing "differences of being" (be it values or something else) to a group of people because they share a set of physical characteristics.

Differences in the human psyche may exist between "races", however, this has nothing to do with colour, and everything to do with the culture or society which has nurtured their being.

Human beings are social. And we search for like minded people to consolidate our existence.

People who share experience's often gravitate toward each other. That's why there are gangs, cities for midgets, amputee clubs and old age groups.

Personality correlation within groups is more to do with a shared experience (rather than physical similarity).... and it is often human societies regard toward physical difference which shapes their experience and pull toward each other.

If you like a sportsperson entirely on their physical characteristic's then I'm not sure if that makes you a racist, a colourist, a bigot, a devotee or a pervert (like in wanting Jeniffer Ennis to win a race because her bottom section looks fantastic in lycra and you want it to bounce up and down in celebration).

Someone please do not point out that amputees, midgets and nices A$$$es are not a race per se.

Rowley wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find that colour is only really an issue for nonwhites who have a chip on their shoulder and like to blame their colour for failings they have had in their life.

That and white people who like to take offence on behalf of others.

So yes it is still an issue in my view, but by over sensitive types who like to try and play the blame game.

Are you Richard Littlejohn by any chance Jack?

I've not a clue who that is. I guess the joke is lost on me...

It would certainly appear so.

Ah right, a daily mail joke. Very good

Look on the bright side Jack, unbeknown to me that was my 10,000th post, that it was used on you must surely be worth something to you.

I'm ecstatic Jeff...

I just wish these damn many foreigners in the office would do one

TheMackemMawler wrote:Someone please do not point out that amputees, midgets and nices A$$$es are not a race per se.

I won't. I'm too excited at the revelation that midget cities exist? Where are they? I'm only 5'10 but I could go there and be like Gulliver in Lilliput.

Got to say Superfly, I am intrigued by the possibility. I know statistically some Asian countries have a lower average height than western countries but I doubt that is what he meant.

Perhaps someone can explain this for me, not strictly on topic but I'm interested anyway...

China borders with India right? How do they look so different?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I find that colour is only really an issue for nonwhites who have a chip on their shoulder and like to blame their colour for failings they have had in their life.

That and white people who like to take offence on behalf of others.

So yes it is still an issue in my view, but by over sensitive types who like to try and play the blame game.

I can imagine you back in the days of slavery in the USA Jack, telling some poor black guy that he only has an issue with slavery because he has a chip on his shoulder.