Scotland - where on earth are we?

The big debate for the last 10 years for most Scottish fans have been around a young promising team growing into a good squad and whether we have reach or even turned a corner

Every year we have a stand out result, Ireland away, South Africa, Australia home and away, and unbeaten summer tour, winning the series in Argentina and we feel there is light at the end of the tunnel. We have players arriving who could be the one that makes us click (Visser, Hogg, Gray, Jackson, Weir, de Luca)

But with each step forward there is often a quick jig backwards (Tonga, 6 nations whitewash, Parks returns, inability to catch a ball), so where is Scotland really in the great scheme of things

Are we still looking at a false dawn or have we actually reached a corner (or at least see it in the distance).

What would be the criteria of meeting this criteria and what would allow you to enjoy watching Scotland without having a haggis running in circles in your stomach

And who in your mind is really the cure, and not part of the disease

Dunno but with Glasgow doing their bit for any resurgence and Edinburgh doing their best to put it into relapse we may see at 4pm on Sunday ?

I think this time it may be genuine.

Other supporters usually give us some realism at this point, which is fair enough, but I do genuinely think that we'll win this weekend.

It's not the quality of the players that is now the problem, its the chance of complacency coming in and the consistency not being there.

After suffering so much misery for the past few months I doubt the players would like to lose this weekend, as Matt Scott said its the first time he's won in ages!

Any signs of complacency in the starting XV, whack on a couple of subs. Keep the message clear, but I think Dean Ryan has done well to stomp that message home.

Answer- dunno... somewhere north of England methinks.

Are we still looking at a false dawn or have we actually reached a corner (or at least see it in the distance).

I'm optimistic, same as always! I do think the players breaking into the squad recently are better than we have had over the last decade, and the current crop of under-20's look better than usual too.

What would be the criteria of meeting this criteria and what would allow you to enjoy watching Scotland without having a haggis running in circles in your stomach

Well that will probably always happen, but for me it's all about getting consistency - in fact right now I think maintaining our level from the Italy game won't be enough, we need to be maintaining our rate of improvement.

The problems we've had in the past are often attributed to mental weakness, and that would seem fair. Too often we have raised our game for the big opponents, Australia, South Africa, England, only to let it slip in other matches. Scotland players shouldn't be deriving their motivation from looking at the opposition, wearing the Scotland shirt should be motivation enough and the fans have the right to demand that players play at their best every single time. Also it has been suggested by many that Scots struggle with being favourites - well I'd say if you can't cope with expectation you shouldn't be playing professional sport.

Fortunately I get the impression Johnson and Ryan are making real progress in dealing with these issues, but the rest of the tournament will hopefully confirm this. It's important that when Ryan leaves we continue the same work with whoever comes in.

And who in your mind is really the cure, and not part of the disease

The whole side seemed to perform well last time out, even one or two who have looked pretty ordinary in the past. That's a good sign and hopefully we can keep that up, but still I think the likes of Hamilton, Murray and Lamont are coming towards the end of their international careers. Hamilton's place should arguably have gone to Swinson already, and then there's Gilchrist, Campbell, McAlpine, Gray Jr and Sinclair coming through for the future. Low and Cross haven't matched Murray's scrummaging, but with Welsh moving across he could be the next first choice tighthead. And Lamont has been a great, dedicated servant over the years but he wouldn't have got near the 13 shirt if De Luca and Ansbro hadn't been injured or Bennett had another year of pro rugby under his belt.

The other parts of the cure would be, among other things, a new Edinburgh coach who gets the best out of what is still a fairly talented group of individuals and plenty of pro-level game time for our EDP players.

And in the longer term, getting rid of rugby's public school image, getting more people interested in the game, meaning a bigger talent pool, bigger crowds, bigger TV audiences, meaning more money from broadcasters and sponsors as well as ticket and merchandise sales, and being able to afford third or fourth pro teams.

Easy!

damage_13 wrote:Answer- dunno... somewhere north of England methinks.

Oh yes, the world revolves around England doesn't it? Just another example of English colonialism. We will not be dictated to by Westminster...

Sorry, thought I was in the SNP for one minute rather than a rational human being.



I think all the Scots players and SJ have made the point, we need to beat either Ireland or Wales to claim any progress, and beating both would constitute a good tournament for us.

We should have beaten Italy at home, we are a better team. That result was par.

Back to the bowels of despair if you lose against Ireland. It's a very tough game but one that Scotland in the past has proved itself capable of winning, especially at home.

The biggest problem Scotland faces and why we keep having these debates is their consistency. We all know what they're capable of in good and bad senses. What we don't what they're capable of is stringing a set of good results together. Until that happens, they'll forever be tagged the dark horses or under/overachievers.

Risky - it's clear blue water time. We are a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum and usually wrapped in a donkey.

Our players are better. Our management team is arguably better. We can actually score. We can actually kick for goal (within 35 meters). So we should get better. But will we? Absolutely nobody could bet that we will. Here's tae us, who's like us, indeed.

George Carlin wrote:Risky - it's clear blue water time. We are a riddle, wrapped in a conundrum and usually wrapped in a donkey.

Rather like a Tesco lasagne - supposed to beef but actually horsemeat.

Sunday will hopefully answer a lot of questions. Personally I thought there were some really encouraging signs vs England - just we played really well that day.

Not sure about a false dawn - I think you're still waiting for sun up.


You'll know a lot more after this weekend though.

Scotland, the cause of, and solution to, all of lifes little problems

Scotland are a team of unexplainable jiggerypokery and gobbledegook.

Our issue lies in consistancy, or lack thereof. Our mindset is totally off kilter and we are die hard bravehearts one week then physicallity shy flower collectors the next. When was the last time you saw a "jason white esque" defensive Scotland performance backed up with a free flowing tactical attacking Scotaland?

One week we play well. every man from 1 to 23 putting his body on the line and going guts for glory only to come up short due to a bounce of a ball, a 50/50 call going th otherway, a coach having a brainfart and putting Max Evans in at centre for the last 10 mins of a game.

One week we play like total scardy cats. hiding from the contact. Standing off rucks like we were in an Al Kellock impersonation competition. We kick when we should run, we run when we should kick. We pass the ball into touch coz we've forgotten the brain needs to be connected to the rest of the body to carry out a sijmple task like a give and take.

One week we play reasonably well and manage to pull off a win with a few against the run of play tries.

One week we are back to playing like demons and our solid defense wins us a tightly fought attritional game where attacking rugby was left behind for the good old up the jumper stuff.

What we need is to bring in the best of each week and bring it in consistently. We need the hard guts for glory stuff. The solid defense to stop the opposition but combine it with the fsat, competent attacking rugby that scores us tries. Alas, if I knew how to acheive that, I'd be under the employ of the SRU already!

tigertattie wrote:Scotland, the cause of, and solution to, all of lifes little problems

Scotland are a team of unexplainable jiggerypokery and gobbledegook.

Our issue lies in consistancy, or lack thereof. Our mindset is totally off kilter and we are die hard bravehearts one week then physicallity shy flower collectors the next. When was the last time you saw a "jason white esque" defensive Scotland performance backed up with a free flowing tactical attacking Scotaland?

One week we play well. every man from 1 to 23 putting his body on the line and going guts for glory only to come up short due to a bounce of a ball, a 50/50 call going th otherway, a coach having a brainfart and putting Max Evans in at centre for the last 10 mins of a game.

One week we play like total scardy cats. hiding from the contact. Standing off rucks like we were in an Al Kellock impersonation competition. We kick when we should run, we run when we should kick. We pass the ball into touch coz we've forgotten the brain needs to be connected to the rest of the body to carry out a sijmple task like a give and take.

One week we play reasonably well and manage to pull off a win with a few against the run of play tries.

One week we are back to playing like demons and our solid defense wins us a tightly fought attritional game where attacking rugby was left behind for the good old up the jumper stuff.

What we need is to bring in the best of each week and bring it in consistently. We need the hard guts for glory stuff. The solid defense to stop the opposition but combine it with the fsat, competent attacking rugby that scores us tries. Alas, if I knew how to acheive that, I'd be under the employ of the SRU already!

Sorry over qualified mate - you need to know how to thrash minions for that role - rugby knowledge is a distinct disadvantage

Its hard to know what to make of Scotland. They are strong in some areas but weak in other areas and thats where they'll need to improve.

You're just to the North of England mate.

Riskysports wrote:
But with each step forward there is often a quick jig backwards (Tonga, 6 nations whitewash, Parks returns, inability to catch a ball), so where is Scotland really in the great scheme of things?

Andy Robinson got the ball rolling, I personally think he deserves a big pat on the back for the work he has done for Scottish rugby. He brought structure and discipline where there was none, he honed in the basics that were lacking, gave the players a good reality check. It is paying off. Scotland used to knock the ball on, make stupid unprofessional errors all the time. This has dramatically reduced, although there will always be the odd game where unforced errors are very noticeable, this goes for any team including the AB's. The point is, the basics have been brought up to a standard befitting professional rugby. Thus, Johnson has a good platform to work off as far as skills are concerned.

Riskysports wrote:Are we still looking at a false dawn or have we actually reached a corner (or at least see it in the distance).

As far as I am concerned, just look at the players we have. With guys like Visser, Maitland, Scott and Hogg in the team, things have already been hugely improved. There'll no doubt be some bad games, but these guys are all class players who will score trys and make things happen. A very promising chapter in Scottish rugby has begun, and the odds look much better than previous years when perhaps the same sort of claims were made.

Riskysports wrote:What would be the criteria of meeting this criteria and what would allow you to enjoy watching Scotland without having a haggis running in circles in your stomach?

For me its just about getting the basics right and not making stupid decisions. I can deal with Scotland losing (have we ever had much choice?) but what I can't accept is losing because a player can't draw the man for a final try scoring pass (Rennie) or a player can knock the ball on right on the try line (Chunk) or a player will just boot the ball blindly with no one to chase onto it because they're out of ideas (Parks/Laidlaw vs Tonga). That crap has to go, and so far this year it has been absent. If Scotland can keep that up I will feel much calmer after Scotland games.

Riskysports wrote:And who in your mind is really the cure, and not part of the disease

There is no cure, Scotland will always be a work in progress. Its up to the SRU to ensure there is always a good option in every position, this seems to be happening and hopefully it will improve. As SJ said, only need 15 players on the pitch, so 3 for each position = 45 world class players and Scotland will be competitive sounds simple enough.

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Biltong wrote:You're just to the North of England mate.

thats what I said but I'm a nasty colonial so it wasn't meant to be funny

Let's not forget that a lot of our best talent is still very young -
Jonny Gray is 19; Hogg is 20; Weir, Heathcote and Kenndy are 21; Gilchrist, Scott and Dunbar are 22; Gray, Denton, Fusaro, Wilson, Pyrgos and Horne are 23; Maitland and Seymour are 24 and his mighty Timness is only 25.

The Messiah is, of course, 2013 and 2 months. He looks well on it, though.

In answer to the original question Scotland are not as bad as some people think from the performance against England and not as good as many think from the performance against Italy. Give it 3 more games and I'll tell you where you are. I do sense however that there is room for cautious optimism but you must be patient

A strong Scotland is better for the 6 nations and world rugby.

My view
still not the sum of the parts and still not playing as a team - but already improved from the Robinson years. Its such a shame he wasted last year with his selections.

this is the best group of players I have seen for many years in Scotland shirts. We will know at the end of this six nations but to be back on track we have to win 2 more games

RubyGuby wrote:In answer to the original question Scotland are not as bad as some people think from the performance against England and not as good as many think from the performance against Italy. Give it 3 more games and I'll tell you where you are. I do sense however that there is room for cautious optimism but you must be patient

Patient!? We've waited long enough!

We need to beat Ireland convincingly then Wales

If we do that then yes we have turned the corner

I think this team can win the 6n in next 2-3 years given the new players who can come in

Apart from Murray brown and Hamilton the rest are all avg about 25 . Got to be one of the youngest if not the youngest in the 6n.

Think about the near future Bennett , Allen , hidalgo clyne, Sinclair Gray mark 2 , Ashe

Those guys are seriously good prospects

Lets see

It is difficult to say the basics are there a Solid Scrum/lineout ,good defence,accurate goal Kicker.
Now at last the ability to create and score tries the back 3 are genuine class without being flash.

Reading through the posts I can already sense some unrealistic expectations. If Scotland win 1 or 2 more games it will be an improvement and fans should see that. If they don't then pressure will start to build on Johnson and 1 or 2 injuries like the rest of us and your back to square 1. 2-3 wins this year will mean progress IMO.

damage_13 wrote:

Biltong wrote:You're just to the North of England mate.

thats what I said but I'm a nasty colonial so it wasn't meant to be funny

Doubt if you are a 'nasty colonial'. You may, however, be a nasty colonist ? Something quite different. It wasn't really funny anyway btw !

3 wins is the minimum anyone should be satisfied with. Until we win 3 games in one six nations we will not have reached the corner let alone turned it

RubyGuby wrote:In answer to the original question Scotland are not as bad as some people think from the performance against England and not as good as many think from the performance against Italy. Give it 3 more games and I'll tell you where you are. I do sense however that there is room for cautious optimism but you must be patient

+1 couldn't sum up better. Think you're turning a corner but need a bit more evidence.

However, should add, that I thought the performance against England was pretty good....

But Stub my friend why did the Scottish players look on in awe at the English line. Really annoying and what Edinburgh do all the time - hence Metrosexual Festival Luvvies moniker. Glasgow get up and dirty to whoever they play - ask Northampton who did not like it one bit. At least against Italy they (Scottish defensive line)did ok but they are not England (or Ireland ) !

n/a

As mentioned earlier by a few. It's early days you need to win this weekend to show any progress.
Bigger picture - you need another professional team. Even a development type side to provide more options at each position and more youngsters coming through.

The SRU will never accept the losses that would inevitably come from setting up another pro team. Also the only feasible place for them to do so is in the Borders and that is a minefield as no matter where you put the team's base you will alienate the rest the rugby following public who are still in the catchment area but not the town where the team plays. It has been tried before and has failed. I cannot see a professional team surviving in a place like Stirling, Aberdeen could be a possibility but I cannot really see it working long term, I could be wrong though.

Alternatively, is there anything to stop the SRU financially backing London Scottish in return for an agreement to have a minimum number of Scotland qualified players in the squad? It would probably annoy the hell out of the RFU, but could they block it? In the amateur days London Scottish provided a fair few Scotland caps they have patiently worked their way back from obscurity after the disaster that happened when the game turned professional. The club also seems to be run by guys with their heads screwed on, from what I understand they are actively seeking to stay in the Championship for the next couple of seasons, would this change if their finances were stronger? Certainly being able to play some of our brightest stars at a club in the premiership would help player development.

I think Inverness would be the ideal location for another pro team. Its dead smack in the middle between west coast and east coast. I think people would show some good support. Rugby needs to be associated further north of the borders in my view , no point having a 3rd team down there.

For me London Scottish would be a good option - or a semi pro club game with entrants in the amlin ( or would the scotttish clubs just get humped all the time?)

The trouble with the borders is the pro team set up there was not supported by the locals

Scotland are in the same place they have been since the 90's, they don't have the talent or depth to win against the big 3, or consistently against Wales, England, Ireland or France.

Scotland do have quite a few promising players coming through, but certainly not as many as Wales or Ireland. I'm going to be very interested to see how they fare against Wales.

One win in 10 years against Wales is a terrible record, yet this expansive approach could play perfectly into Wales hands. The game could be a cracker.

Shifty wrote:Scotland are in the same place they have been since the 90's, they don't have the talent or depth to win against the big 3, or consistently against Wales, England, Ireland or France.

Scotland do have quite a few promising players coming through, but certainly not as many as Wales or Ireland. I'm going to be very interested to see how they fare against Wales.

One win in 10 years against Wales is a terrible record, yet this expansive approach could play perfectly into Wales hands. The game could be a cracker.

shifty - interestingly enough the record agaisnt SA and Aus is not bad, at all recently. Scotland have plenty of talent. Depth remains a real problem tho but even that is improving. This is not the Scotland of even 3 years ago

I don't think we should try another pro team in the borders - that failed with the Reivers and we know the reasons why. The ties in the border towns to their clubs are very strong and simply nobody felt affiliated to the artifice of a regional franchise. The only place it could work is Aberdeen or Inverness - Aberdeen almost certainly being chosen as it's more populous.

This topic has been thrashed to a skeleton by Scots posters on these boards but I am going to be slightly controversial and suggest that we shouldn't have a third pro team just yet. We need both Glasgow and Edinburgh to be competitive first. Unfortunately, between them this season, both teams have shown what happens if you spend your increased budget well (Glasgow) and poorly (Edinburgh).

The important point is that we actually don't have buckets and buckets of young players whose talent is being wheed up the wall because they can't get a game. We just have a handful each year without an EDP slot and/or MacPhail scholarship. The rest have already been tied to clubs - I honestly don't know of any sparkling talent in our U20s that is not already affiliated to either Scottish club or a good exile set up (Bennett, Allan, our other big lock whose name escapes me who's tied to Clermont).

We need to get the grass roots playing more at school first and get the national academy set up better funded and get more schools coaches. Then, when the trickle of excellent young players becomes a bit more like a running burn, that's when a third team is justified. Not before.

George - there is however a bit of an issue with playing opportunities at the top level. If we have 3 good 10s for example only 2 will get regular games? Too many of our players seem to spend time on the bench rather than getting experience

Scotland are poised for a shcok this weekend, time to step up and put the Paddies away! You ahve the cutting edge now behind a big mobile pack....sounds like the Scotland of old.

Scotland beating Ireland should be no shock, in fact I think they start as favourites over what is a decent Irish side and no more which has been grossly flattrered by the worse 40 minutes of welsh rugby in the modern era.

For me one of the most promising things is that in the key positions we have home grown talent rather than ancestral/residential imports.

In the past this has been an issue and a reminder that we're not producing enough quality ball handlers, distributers etc.
I'm not saying we have the answer to our problems but its a good step in the right direction.

@TJ : yes, that's absolutely true (and sometimes the glut leads to some bad results - Alex Blair having to move on was a particular lowlight). Two things worth mentioning though:

1. We only really notice the logjam in particular positions like 9 and 10, I think.

2. Whilst we have to try and find our young players regular gametime, I don't think that they have any sort of god given right to ply their trade in Scotland. Heathcote and Ross are just two examples of 10s who are getting good Jeff experience. I sometimes think that we feel we're failing our players if we can't stick them into the the two pro teams' set up, which cannot be right.

It's a competitive world out there. I'd rather have someone like Lineen helping get them a good set up somewhere. I'm not in the UAE for social reasons - it's where my work has taken me. Just playing devils's advocate.

Here's an article from today's Irish Times by a guy called Liam Toland who obviously doesn't think much of our chances on Sunday;
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0222/1224330366299.html

Liam Toland appears not to mention the 2nd half v Wales which is an interesting ommission. Scotland for me by 10 points driven on by a more collective front 8.

I see a lot of points in this game

I actually agree with a lot that Liam says (not all but a fair amount)

I was the lone voice after the Italy game not at all impressed with Scotland's performance

I still am not

The only thing that was positive was the progression from the England game and the fixing of weak areas. If we can continue that, we may do ok

Otherwise - if we give Ireland 60-70% of the ball we will be stuffed

Ps - I really hope Scotland prove me wrong this weekend and I will fully eat humble pie (Not stew with a pastry top on)

Risky, without wanting to contradict myself I think your appraisal of Scotland v Italy is spot and and potentially there was a 21 point turnaround with the break away trys and the fluffed Italian try that looked a cert. However, I have seen the beginnings of a team here and I think they have more than enough for what in my opinion is an average Irish team. Unfortunately I see it as a mid-table battle for 3rd and 4th position

I do wonder if he has watched Scotland play though.

Comments like this :

Rob Harley (second cap) has little physical impact,

Make me wonder.