james hook going on the lions

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After watching warren gatlands interview on rugby club he's said to be taking 2 10s and a player that can play there and a number of other positions so does this mean James Hook is going

Plus his inch perfect kick for north. What did Farrell do bar try and fight. There's no need for Farrell halfpenny can kick better and if we want someone who can fight they will take Hamilton.

Plus his inch perfect kick for north. What did Farrell do bar try and fight. There's no need for Farrell halfpenny can kick better and if we want someone who can fight they will take Hamilton.

reallybored wrote:I definitely prefer Farrell ahead of Biggar.

What exactly did Biggar do during the 6 Nations that was so impressive?

Drop goal was nice, defencively sound, distribution was ok.... uuuhhhh... not a lot!!

But in comparison Farell hit his shots at goal (except the important ones)

I don't think either are great options, but both are best of the rest types behind Sexton.

CurlyOsp wrote:

reallybored wrote:I definitely prefer Farrell ahead of Biggar.

What exactly did Biggar do during the 6 Nations that was so impressive?

He won it.

Really? I thought it was the Welsh pack, Phillips and Halfpenny who did most of the work. Halfpenny did most of the kicking after all.

Biggar did ok but has seen his status risen to deity thanks to his team mates. Isn't even trusted as primary goal kicker!

According to your logic welshboi no need for Biggar either.

Unfortunately we won't see either Halfpenny or Biggar showcasing their talents in European competitions this season anymore. Such a shame.

beshocked wrote:

CurlyOsp wrote:

reallybored wrote:I definitely prefer Farrell ahead of Biggar.

What exactly did Biggar do during the 6 Nations that was so impressive?

He won it.

Really? I thought it was the Welsh pack, Phillips and Halfpenny who did most of the work. Halfpenny did most of the kicking after all.

Biggar did ok but has seen his status risen to deity thanks to his team mates. Isn't even trusted as primary goal kicker!

According to your logic welshboi no need for Biggar either.

Unfortunately we won't see either Halfpenny or Biggar showcasing their talents in European competitions this season anymore. Such a shame.

One could argue that most of those players were present during our 8 match winning streak, Biggar being the only difference in a team that went on to win the 6 nations.

Nobody's claiming him to be a deity, just better than Farrell. And wouldn't be making such a point of doing so if people didn't seem so bitter toward Biggar for no real reason.

Fact of the matter is, goal kicking aside, he did everything that Farrell did and more in the Six nations.

If you want to get petty about the Heineken cup then that's fine, but irrelevant. Gatland has already stated that he doesn't see European club rugby to be the same standard as international, so winning the six nations > winning the Heineken cup.

Really not like the Welsh and English to big up their players

Well yea biggar is needed because he's more attacking than Farrell hints why wales wings score more.

And no would Farrell or sexton be kicking if halfpenny is in the side only kicker that would kick is wilko

Hook is a decent utility back to take tbh. Did reasonably well on the last lions tour and was unlucky when O'Gara was picked ahead of him.

On the FH position, i'd still go for Sexton but Biggar can't be far behind. Had a very good six nations and has been immense for the O's this season. Won't be far off the starting team imo.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Really not like the Welsh and English to big up their players

Well we all know that the Scottish are the best


Dan Parks, THE form number 10 -

Dan Parks for the Lions


Yeah

James Hook going on the lions..... Really? i would of thought that the two 10. would of been Either Sexton-Farrell Flood-Laidlaw.

However, i would think that Biggar, would go on the Lions before Hook.

Yea but in the words of Gatland, ' if we take three fly halfs then people are going be saying they not going get enough game time for the lions, so if we take two fly halfs and one player that can play a number of positions that can sit on the bench then the fly halfs can get 3 or 4 games each '

Sexton
Biggar/Farrell
Laidlaw/Twelvetrees

...seem the most plausible combinations to me based on what Gatland said. Barritt's main use for England over Twelvetrees is that he's led the defensive line for 15 months, but the Lions are forming a whole new defensive line anyway, so I can see Twelvetrees jumping ahead of him as a slight gamble at 12 (given that no-one has really nailed that position anyway) and extra cover at 10 in case of injuries.

welshboii15 wrote:Plus his inch perfect kick for north. What did Farrell do bar try and fight. There's no need for Farrell halfpenny can kick better and if we want someone who can fight they will take Hamilton.

Farrell was very good vs Scotland; kicked his goals, defended well and threw a delightful pass for Parling's try.

Massively important against Ireland, showed his bottle from the tee to punish Ireland.

Started well against France and showed a great deal of niggle, got injured but tried to struggle on before getting replaced.

Quiet against Wales behind a well beaten pack but his grubber through for Brown was sublime.

Then against Ulster showed his ruthless edge, once again punishing a team off the tee.

Farrell is a match-winner but obviously he needs a pack performing to give him a platform to punishes opposition. Biggar is solid at International level but little else.

Do you honestly think England would have won 4 with Biggar at 10?

Personally yea they would have maybe even all with biggar because biggar is at his best wile under pressure take his performance against lienster in league play off final twice nailed his kicks. Biggar is a world class goal kicker but so is halfpenny. The mail reason I like biggar is because he brings the backline into play, what iv seen of Farrell is he don't get the ball past the centres

The welsh backs were poor in attack this season compared to previous seasons.

You dominated possession against us but had one line break, explain that?

And you can't say Biggar is a World Class goal kicker, why isn't he in the Top 10 Rabo kickers based on %'s then?

Wales were poor over all but did all our tries apart from one come from our backs so don't that mean biggar did something right to trigger them.
Please show the link that shows Dan biggar isn't in top 10 please

Twelvetrees is in with a shout as a bolter anyway I'd say. Him or Luke Marshall would be my two outside bets for the squad at the moment given how light we are at IC. My other bet would be Jonny May who I rate very highly and can't believe doesn't start for England.

Scrum halfs - Youngs, Phillips, Care

Fly halfs - Sexton, Biggar/Wilko/Farrell (wait for them to seperate themselves over the coming weeks), Hook

Inside centre - Roberts, Davies

Outside centre - O'Driscoll, Tuilagi

Wing - North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Zebo

Full back - Halfpenny, Kearney, Brown

That's the 17 backs I'd take at the moment with the fly half spot up for grabs between Biggar, Wilko and Farrell. Personally my first choice centre partnership would be Davies and BOD so I've left out my two bets as bolters in Twelvetrees and Marshall to accommodate JDv2 as a 12.

Players unlucky to miss out there - Laidlaw, Twelvetrees, Marshall, Maitland, Hogg

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/statzone/rhino_golden_boot.php

Ok good point but that don't identify anything because you got people like Owen williams on there 12 kicks out of 14. so id be the best kicker if I kicked 3-3 because I'll have 100%

He's going to leave out Biggar again as he has done for Wales.

Unless he means Farrell as a 10/12

Sexton + 1 at FH is a bit risky considering the injury rates at the moment

its laidlaw or hook, has to be, but imo it will be Hook, not that he will even see a Test match

But that's what I was getting at earlier very little of us are seeing hook play so for all we know he could tour and be out standing like he was for Wales a couple seasons ago

reallybored wrote:The welsh backs were poor in attack this season compared to previous seasons.

You dominated possession against us but had one line break, explain that?

And you can't say Biggar is a World Class goal kicker, why isn't he in the Top 10 Rabo kickers based on %'s then?

Yet, overall the Welsh backs (despite being poor in attack and playing not to lose, rather than to win) played for the team that scored the most tries in the tournament.

I agree with whoever said that percentages is a load of guff really, though it does get used a bit by a couple of Scots trying to big up Laidlaw (as another example).

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:marcushlaberstram I do wonder if you have ever watched rugby other than those involving Wales.

Farrell has the added advantage of continually testing himself against the best fly halves in Europe in the HC.

Biggar did have a good 6 nations but can't write off his shambolic lows like the humiliating draw with Fiji and the loss to Samoa.

Not exactly done well in the HC either. Not good enough when it matters.

Trust the Welsh to overrate yet another of their players.

maestegmafia lacks experience? Oh and Biggar doesn't?

Part of a team that destroyed the English and did very little wrong at all, oh and won the 6 Nations Championship ... so pretty damned good when it matters me thinks

As long as we beat the English mantra. Sigh. That's the problem with Wales. You need to aim a bit higher than England. If you change your attitude you'll stand a better chance vs the SH sides.

As I have said a few times unfortunately for Biggar he doesn't have many more opportunities to prove himself before Lions selection.

Wilkinson and Farrell have a HC semi to look forward to.

Perhaps I don't see the hype surrounding Biggar because I am not Welsh. It's the same reason why I can't see the hype for Hook.

For what it's worth I believe Biggar has a better chance than Hook and could make it as 3rd choice.

I see France and Ireland as bigger scalps than England for the past few seasons. England have proved to be pretty standard since 2003 hardly worth the hype in all honesty. Biggar has improved very well and will be the test 10 with Phillips at 9 a perfect starting pair. As stated before Gatland will not make the same mistake as Henry and certainly not like Wooden Head in 2005. Wales / Ireland will make up the vast majority of the Test Lions..Engalnd mid week specials.

Pathetic. I can just imagine the booing if an England player scores a try for the Lions in a test...

Biggar
Wilkinson
Hook

Hook didn't get a look in during the 6 nations and was flaky beforehand. Dunno how's he's been playing for perp. I'd be surprised if sexton and Farrell didn't go..

CurlyOsp wrote:

reallybored wrote:I definitely prefer Farrell ahead of Biggar.

What exactly did Biggar do during the 6 Nations that was so impressive?

He won it.

Owned.

Breadvan wrote:Hook didn't get a look in during the 6 nations and was flaky beforehand. Dunno how's he's been playing for perp. I'd be surprised if sexton and Farrell didn't go..

Doing excellent at perpignan plus the fact he's still one of the most natural gifted backs in world rugby and international class at 10, 12, 13 or 15.

Too talented and too useful to omit.

Breadvan wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:marcushlaberstram I do wonder if you have ever watched rugby other than those involving Wales.

Farrell has the added advantage of continually testing himself against the best fly halves in Europe in the HC.

Biggar did have a good 6 nations but can't write off his shambolic lows like the humiliating draw with Fiji and the loss to Samoa.

Not exactly done well in the HC either. Not good enough when it matters.

Trust the Welsh to overrate yet another of their players.

maestegmafia lacks experience? Oh and Biggar doesn't?

Part of a team that destroyed the English and did very little wrong at all, oh and won the 6 Nations Championship ... so pretty damned good when it matters me thinks

As long as we beat the English mantra. Sigh. That's the problem with Wales. You need to aim a bit higher than England. If you change your attitude you'll stand a better chance vs the SH sides.

As I have said a few times unfortunately for Biggar he doesn't have many more opportunities to prove himself before Lions selection.

Wilkinson and Farrell have a HC semi to look forward to.

Perhaps I don't see the hype surrounding Biggar because I am not Welsh. It's the same reason why I can't see the hype for Hook.

For what it's worth I believe Biggar has a better chance than Hook and could make it as 3rd choice.

I see France and Ireland as bigger scalps than England for the past few seasons. England have proved to be pretty standard since 2003 hardly worth the hype in all honesty. Biggar has improved very well and will be the test 10 with Phillips at 9 a perfect starting pair. As stated before Gatland will not make the same mistake as Henry and certainly not like Wooden Head in 2005. Wales / Ireland will make up the vast majority of the Test Lions..Engalnd mid week specials.

Pathetic. I can just imagine the booing if an England player scores a try for the Lions in a test...

Get over yourself, we have to endure your posts too

Personally I'd go for Sexton, Biggar and Hook as a utility player.

Sexton picks himself, but Bigger deserves to go ahead of Farrell based on what they did in the 6 Nations.
Though I think the English press will start world war 3 if Farrell doesn't go on tour. The English press, since Wilkinson seem to have this crazy fascination with outside halves like the Welsh did during the 1990's.

t1000advancedprototype wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Hook didn't get a look in during the 6 nations and was flaky beforehand. Dunno how's he's been playing for perp. I'd be surprised if sexton and Farrell didn't go..

Doing excellent at perpignan plus the fact he's still one of the most natural gifted backs in world rugby and international class at 10, 12, 13 or 15.

Too talented and too useful to omit.

Was, nit so sure now. Still a good player tho...

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Breadvan wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

beshocked wrote:marcushlaberstram I do wonder if you have ever watched rugby other than those involving Wales.

Farrell has the added advantage of continually testing himself against the best fly halves in Europe in the HC.

Biggar did have a good 6 nations but can't write off his shambolic lows like the humiliating draw with Fiji and the loss to Samoa.

Not exactly done well in the HC either. Not good enough when it matters.

Trust the Welsh to overrate yet another of their players.

maestegmafia lacks experience? Oh and Biggar doesn't?

Part of a team that destroyed the English and did very little wrong at all, oh and won the 6 Nations Championship ... so pretty damned good when it matters me thinks

As long as we beat the English mantra. Sigh. That's the problem with Wales. You need to aim a bit higher than England. If you change your attitude you'll stand a better chance vs the SH sides.

As I have said a few times unfortunately for Biggar he doesn't have many more opportunities to prove himself before Lions selection.

Wilkinson and Farrell have a HC semi to look forward to.

Perhaps I don't see the hype surrounding Biggar because I am not Welsh. It's the same reason why I can't see the hype for Hook.

For what it's worth I believe Biggar has a better chance than Hook and could make it as 3rd choice.

I see France and Ireland as bigger scalps than England for the past few seasons. England have proved to be pretty standard since 2003 hardly worth the hype in all honesty. Biggar has improved very well and will be the test 10 with Phillips at 9 a perfect starting pair. As stated before Gatland will not make the same mistake as Henry and certainly not like Wooden Head in 2005. Wales / Ireland will make up the vast majority of the Test Lions..Engalnd mid week specials.

Pathetic. I can just imagine the booing if an England player scores a try for the Lions in a test...

Get over yourself, we have to endure your posts too

Humility. I have some...

Risca Rev wrote:

reallybored wrote:The welsh backs were poor in attack this season compared to previous seasons.

You dominated possession against us but had one line break, explain that?

And you can't say Biggar is a World Class goal kicker, why isn't he in the Top 10 Rabo kickers based on %'s then?

Yet, overall the Welsh backs (despite being poor in attack and playing not to lose, rather than to win) played for the team that scored the most tries in the tournament.

I agree with whoever said that percentages is a load of guff really, though it does get used a bit by a couple of Scots trying to big up Laidlaw (as another example).

Love that statistics get ignored when they don't back up an arguement, I was merely pointing out that Biggar was not a world class goal kicker.

The Welsh backs scored as many as the Scottish backs this year but that isn't important.

reallybored wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

reallybored wrote:The welsh backs were poor in attack this season compared to previous seasons.

You dominated possession against us but had one line break, explain that?

And you can't say Biggar is a World Class goal kicker, why isn't he in the Top 10 Rabo kickers based on %'s then?

Yet, overall the Welsh backs (despite being poor in attack and playing not to lose, rather than to win) played for the team that scored the most tries in the tournament.

I agree with whoever said that percentages is a load of guff really, though it does get used a bit by a couple of Scots trying to big up Laidlaw (as another example).

Love that statistics get ignored when they don't back up an arguement, I was merely pointing out that Biggar was not a world class goal kicker.

The Welsh backs scored as many as the Scottish backs this year but that isn't important.

Why the rant over Biggar kicking? Halfpenny is the man for Wales and the Lions!

Can't see a rant anywhere. Someone called Biggar a world class kicker. Someone else pointed out that he isn't by using facts. Seems pretty innocuous.

If Gats is planning to grind out slow ball games I'd say Jonny for the 3rd berth on kicking / defence grounds. Sexton Biggar on attack IMO

Reading threads like this, a part of me wants to see the Lions get absolutely smashed.

Come on for goodness sake let's keep what should be a half decent debate to some sort of associated standard.

People put some propositions forward and they are then successfully challenged by another poster backing up with some salient facts. Have the good grace to accept the point and move on!

On topic it would seem from what Gatland has stated that he wants two regular FHs and a utility back. What we need to look at is who will make up those three roles to the best of the team.

Sexton is nailed on by everyone on earth so I think we can take that as read. The Farrell/Biggar debate is an odd one. Up until the 6N Biggar would've been nowhere near the Lions and I even mooted that Wales might like to pick Shingler as their FH for the tournament...

Biggar performed pretty well throughout the tournament but how close did he come to winning a MOTM? How often has he played/won against SH opponents? To my mind he did a very respectable job for Wales but was hardly a superstar in the making and the Lions should be about top end performers.

Farrell by contrast has won MOTM in a 6N game. Has played and won in tests against New Zealand and has had a lot of success with Saracens in the league and at this years HEC. He was also nominated for IRB player of the year.

I think in all Farrell both in terms of stats and test temperament/experience has what it takes to see off Biggar for the second Lions spot.

More interesting and open to debate is the James Hook question. He's played relatively well for Perp when i've seen him but got no chance during this 6N which was odd. You'd have thought if he was a contender Gatland might have asked Howley to give him some game time.

Having said that the only other options I can see are Laidlaw or 36. Farrell is a primary FH who can cover others so I don't think one can include him in this list.

Laidlaw has played really well for Scotland but covers 9 as his primary position and is that somewhere the Lions are also in need of cover? Philips, Youngs and Care are all in with top shouts of making the plane. I don't think Laidlaw has enough to see them off.

36 is a possibility but just too green for at the moment for the Lions. A possible bolter.

In all honesty if you want a serious utility back Hook is the man to pick. I don't like him at 15 but he covers all the centres well and FH. I think he could be favourite to take it although again I don't think he'll see a lot of game time.

On the Farrell/Biggar thing, a lot of Wales fans have wanted Biggar in the set up for a long time, he's just not been given the chance. Many supporters wanted him to go to the world cup, even more so to go to Australia, but injury held him back from the latter.

He was very close to MOM in the England game, which was just as much of a pressure game for him as it was for Farrell. At the end of the day the championship was on the line for him too. Plus there was the added pressure of the fact that he's not one of Gatlands favourites and with Priestland coming back to fitness, Hook breathing down his neck and Patchell in amazing form, a bad game that day could have been the last in a Wales shirt. The difference is, he thrived on the pressure.

It's not the first time he's excelled in a high pressure game either, he's been at the helm for three Celtic league finals, which the Ospreys won, two which went right down to the wire at the RDS against Leinster, both of which he won with touchline kicks and at least one (maybe two, can't remember) of which he was man of the match.

He's not won against big southern hemisphere teams because he's not been given the chance, there's no telling what the result would have been if he had traveled to Australia. Also he's not gone as far in Europe because of lack of depth in the regions, for the Ospreys to have been as successful as they have been in Europe is a testament to the players, as they can't afford huge squads full of foreign players like some of the other European teams.

What stats has Farrell got over Biggar? From what I saw of the 6 Nations stats Biggar had the upper hand over all. You could argue the point that he's not in the top 10 kickers in the Rabo, but then that doesn't tell you a lot, just that he'll try kicks from anywhere, not just the ones in front of the posts. Either way, it's redundant as Gatland trusts Halfpenny as a kicker, so he will kick for the Lions.

Hook probably will get the third choice spot but I'd rather he didn't. He left the Ospreys because he's not as good of a 10 as Biggar and Henson was always a better Utility back. If gatland wants a versatile 10, Laidlaw and Henson are much better choices IMO.

Hook has been wasted in my opinion, ridiculously talented but never seemed to get enough time at fly-half because of his versatility. He has everything you'd want at fly-half; good distribution, good boot (hand & tee), can make a break, solid defender and a BGT.

If Hook travels but Gatland gives his two primary fly-halfs the game-time, where does he play?

I don't think he's better a centre than BOD, Davies, Roberts or Tuilagi and on the same note not as good a full-back as Halfpenny, Hogg or Kearney. So does he go and sit on the bench?

Laidlaw has a fair chance of going as 3rd scrum-half but he's not as much of an attacking threat at nine as Murray or Care. But in his favour he's got a calm temperament, intelligent kicking game, great goal kicker and capable of covering fly-half if needed (beat Australia at 10 last summer).

Did Twelvetrees get enough game-time in the 6 Nations to impress Gatland, I'm not sure.

Matt Scott could be another option but I've never actually seen him at 10 for Edinburgh let alone Scotland, so wouldn't be overly confident if he went as cover for fly-half.

Surely the key is how many centres they take, if it's 5 then Hook could be the extra man but if it's 4 with a back-three player covering 13 (Bowe or Hogg) then Laidlaw may have the edge.

Curly i'm happy to accept that Biggar is a good player and I haven't said at any point that he's not. What I have said is that in terms of quality all round I don't think he matches up to Farrell at the moment.

What you can't do is claim that if he'd have been playing for Wales against OZ you would've won those games and then in the same breath claim that the reason teams have lost games when he's played is because he hasn't had the platform from the rest of the team.

We all know precisely that that Rugby is a team game and FH is an important role within it. Farrell was playing behind a pack that got marmalised by Wales in the 6N and any FH would've found it difficult to shine. Even Carter looked second rate when we beat them in the Autumn.

I don't think he was anywhere near MOTM in that 6N game. I'd have had Justin Tipuric, Adam Jones, Ian Evans, Richard Hibbard, Toby Faletau, AWJ, Gethin Jenkins + the enitre Welsh bakcline and Chris Robshaw ahead of him for MOTM.

Farrell has already been to Premiership finals and won (at 20 years of age I think). His temperament is incredible and his kicking almost faultless. Saying 1/2P can do the kicking isn't an answer to taking a second-rate goal kicker as back-up. If HP gets injured who do you want out there in OZ to kick those points?! I know I wouldn't want Biggar lining them up.

Biggar has also been at the helm when Wales have put in some dreadful displays both against Fiji and Samoa. He was also poor in the performance at Leicester for the Ospreys where he forced the game and put his team under pressure.

He has been a respectable part of a winning team for Wales but is not a Lions FH.

If we're just going to be spurious about it and ignore statistcis and long-term performance then i'll quite happily champion Ian Madigan, Freddie Burns and Charlie Hodgson for Lions FH!

As am I happy to accept that Farrell is a good player, I just don't see how he's better than Biggar. What exactly did Farrell bring that Biggar didn't?

From what I saw, Wales's backs were running far better than they have in a long time, this was largely due to Biggars distribution and management. Additionally, he carried more and beat more defenders than Farrell, who didn't beat any.

I didn't at all claim Wales would have won in Australia if he went, just that there was no way of telling, so it's hardly fair to compare. In the Samoa game, Wales were leading before Biggar was taken off through injury, and as for the Fiji game, take one look at the team. It was a team thrown together to scapegoat a bad run of games, D. Jones, H. Bennett, G. Thomas and a dreadfully off form R. Jones in that pack with the likes of Richie Rees, Aled Brew and Andrew Bishop all in the backs who probably about third choice at the time.

Biggar is a very good goal kicker, he's been around the top ten percentage kickers in the league all season, my guess is that he'd be around 11/12th on that list with near enough 80%. He's second in the leading marksmen chart for the league despite being away for internationals so your point about him being second rate is redundant.

And as far as long-term performance is concerned, there's no argument. Biggar's been on the scene since he was 18. Kept Henson and Hook out of the 10 shirt and won league titles and the Anglo Welsh cup. He is far more experienced. The reason that he's not had as many caps is because of his attitude early on which landed him in Gatlands bad books, but he's matured and been rewarded.

Farrell at points in the championship looked to lose his cool, got caught up a few times in scuffles and lost his nerve in the Welsh game. He didn't capitalise on opportunities that would have kept England in the game, Australia would have had a field day.

Chjw131, a well reasoned post.

Gatland has said on a number of occasions that his challenge is to look at players and try judge what they'd be like surrounded by a different team.

I think Farrell showed enough himself both for club and country to merit inclusion in the Lions. I was critical of his running game pre-6N but was pretty impressed by his attacking game and would like to see him in a more adventurous back-line.

I'd love to see Madigan go as a bolter, has a similar strut to Sexton and Farrell but more of a threat himself.

reallybored wrote:Chjw131, a well reasoned post.

Gatland has said on a number of occasions that his challenge is to look at players and try judge what they'd be like surrounded by a different team.

I think Farrell showed enough himself both for club and country to merit inclusion in the Lions. I was critical of his running game pre-6N but was pretty impressed by his attacking game and would like to see him in a more adventurous back-line.

I'd love to see Madigan go as a bolter, has a similar strut to Sexton and Farrell but more of a threat himself.

Farrell carried 13 times and beat 1 defender, Biggar carried 33 times and beat 4 defenders. Neither are classed as "running" 10's, but this would suggest that Biggar is more of a threat.

I didn't say that Farrell was a better running FH than Biggar, I said I was impressd by Farrell's attacking play.

Another way of interpreting those statistics would be; Biggar got caught in contact more often and therefore was less able to dictate the game off subsequent phases.

Or simply that he has more to his game than just passing and kicking.

Farrell success ratio - 8%
Biggar success ratio - 12%

Staggeringly different ratios, obviously he's far more of a running threat.

There's no way of comparing the two based on statistics, it'll never give you an accurate picture. In my opinion Farrell's contribution to England was greater than Biggar's for Wales.

Curly I appreciate that you want to defend your club and international player fair dos. Even you surely would have to acknowledge that a goal kicker who isn't in the top ten percentage slots in his league is likely to be seen (at that point in time at least) as a second rate goal kicker. To accuse me of making a redundant or unfounded point is absurd. You assume he must be eleventh on the league table and also that clearly he's a really ambitious kicker and is taking them from all over the park affecting his percentages. If you can't agree that that might seem a bit of a partisan view then there's no point in continuing the discussion.

I have been highly critical of young Farrell at times as a brief search of this forum will demonstrate. The improvements in his game have been noticeable and his passing has come on leaps and bounds. He's not much of a runner himself but adds some very deft kicking and chipping from hand combined with what is now a good passing game. You haven't addressed any of the points I made about Biggar's temperament an area in which Farrell is almost without equal. I don't accept the proposition that he lost his head in the Wales game he was in a team soundly beaten in all departments.

Finally I think if we took a straw poll of those in the rugby community Farrell would be an overwhelming favourite for the spot. He brings game management, top quality goal kicking, superb defence and a quality passing game. Would he be my test starter? No that's Sexton. Would I want anyone else on the bench at the moment? Not at present. Whatever you think about Biggar being discriminated against by Gatland the fact is he's played far less international rugby in the last 18 months than Farrell who has repeatedly been singled out for praise in the rugby community making the IRB player of the year nominations list. Are you still going to tell me Biggar is a better FH and would be better for the Lions?

In terms of utility FH would Ian Madigan not be right in the running? He's plays full back as well as 10 and has been in exceptional form this season. His goal kicking especially has been spot on!

Okay, judging by just those stats alone then yes, you might have come to that assumption. But take a look at the leading marksmen over the past four seasons, Dan Biggar has been in the top two for each.

I can't find anything on Aviva Prem Percentages, but Farrell isn't in the top 9 leading marksmen listed this season and was outside the top 5 last season. This will be partly because Hodgson is also at the Saracens, but if i were to look at the statistics not considering anything else, I could also assume that Farrell is a second rate kicker. We both know that's not true, but statistics can be interpreted any way you like.

Which points about Biggars temperament are you refering to? From what I remember Biggars temperament was the thing that his critics were impressed with the most this tournament. He doesn't throw his toys out the pram like he used to and stayed away from trouble, I may be incorrect but i seem to remember Farrell getting involved in handbags a few times.

Yes we're all agreed that Sexton should be first choice and in an ideal world Biggar and Farrell would both go to fight it out for the Bench spot, unfortunately Gatland wont do that. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Wilkinson and Hook went as back ups with neither Farrell or Biggar going. But yes, I am trying to say that Biggar is the better choice. Don't you remember the stir it caused when he was nominated? No one's saying he's not a good player but to be nominated for that award was a farce.