Hartley Out of Lions Tour Best called up.

First topic message reminder :

Sent off for bad language to the referee Wayne Barnes. Well, this isn't soccer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22668122





Hartley now given an eleven week ban...!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22674429

Confirmed - Best to join the tour

BamBam wrote:Confirmed - Best to join the tour

Justice!

mite even play on saturday if he's fitter than youngs

It was always going to happen. Hartley just cant help himself. I knew he wouldn't make it on the tour for something like this. He didn't deserve to tour in the first place and certainly doesn't now.

Justice served.

He's joining the Lions at the same time as the other finalists so it's not even like he's at a huge disadvantage...

G'wan Bestie, go hard for the test spot!

Go on Rory, finally in the squad do yourself proud big fella as for Hartley he's an idiot he has proven that

Excellent news but shouldn't have required a ban to make it so. The options at hooker look better already.

? having just been warned by barnes moments before you can only assume hartley didn't want to go on tour......what a stupid idiot. i can't see how he can even retain the captaincy and feel that this was his last chance to stake a claim with the lions that may have seen a return to england.....talk of wasted potential....former FEC now binned from a lions tour and sent off while capt of his club in a prem final. lad has had a shocker.

Delighted for Rory, and for the Lions

Best IS best

I really hope Best proves why it was lunacy not to include him originally and earns a test spot. If anybody deserves this its him. A lot of players would have lost the plot if they'd been left out in similar circumstances, Rory just handled it with real dignity and class. Unbelievable player and captain and it would have been a travesty if he'd ended his career not a Lion....he was very unfortunate to miss out under McGeechan and this is his last chance to go on a Lions tour. Thank god hes got it now.

He's only 30 dodger, he could still make the 2017 tour as well. Really pleased to see him going though.

Ozzy3213 wrote:He's only 30 dodger, he could still make the 2017 tour as well. Really pleased to see him going though.

Possible, but unlikely for a 34 year old hooker when there will be lots of options from 4 nations

If he wasn't picked at almost 27 and almost 31 I very much doubt he would be hopeful of getting picked at almost 35 though Ozzy.

He must have thought this was his best (no pun intended) chance. He has been playing well too. What more could he show in 4 years to get picked?

Congratulations to Best. Despite not having any allegiance to Hartley and completely agreeing with his punishment, I do feel a bit of empathy for him. No matter what your previous or current opinions of him, being ruled out of a Lions tour and having no one to blame but yourself is a pretty horrific position to be in.

Congratulations to Rory Best. An excellent replacement.

Think master Hartley owes his coach Jim Mallinder an apology for convincing him to have good reason to lie to the press too.

That's excellent news. How weird to get a replacement that actually strengthens the squad. The Aussie press aren't going to be happy about this - they identified the lack of Best as one of their bright spots in their analysis of the strengths of each pack.

maestegmafia wrote:Congratulations to Rory Best. An excellent replacement.

Think master Hartley owes his coach Jim Mallinder an apology for convincing him to have good reason to lie to the press too.

The beauty of it all is the RFU reduced the ban to 11 weeks from 12 for his good conduct at the hearing even thogh he pled not guilty

On the video he seems to glance at Barnes when hes talking wether thats to see if Barnes hears him or to direct the comment at his is known only to him but how he could call Youngs a cheat is beyond me as Youngs seemed to get the better of him at the scrum

Mallinder as much as anyone needs to shoulder the blame constantly backing him when he screws up now hes cost himself a huge opportunity and probably his team the championship

But have to say I told you so

this means there are now only 8 english players in the squad of which most are from leicester. it's a pity cos at his best hartley reminds me of thompson on the charge

The footage I have seen didn't show the players or ref at the moment of the incident. They were focusing on Cockerill looking confused and small children running on to do the half time show!

Do you have a link Marty?

I don't want to jump on here and start slating Hartley, I didn't see or hear what happened, and IMHO Hartley has been playing extremely well for club and country recently.

Best will certainly not weaken the lions at all, but he offers something different from Hartley who was more dynamic, Hartley will be a loss but Best will more than make up for it.

Worryingly didn't leicester lose 5 of their own lineouts again today...

Can't comment on the Hartley incident as I didn't see it. I do actually like Hartley, good player and seems like a nice bloke off the field.... very stupid thing do do so if guilty I wouldn't have too much sympathy.

Absolutely delighted for Rory Best. Should have been one of the first names in the squad. He's a born Lion and will bring a lot to the tour, and hopefully the test team.

oops:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3823_8728355,00.html

Grey,

From all I have heard about and from Saints fans, you guys deserved much better than your Captain displayed yesterday.

I'd be mad as anything.

The consensus with the Australian media was that the Lions were weaker without Best, which I among many others also support. I'm very happy he's in as not only is he a monster scrummager and breakdown beast but assuming he can get start at least one of the tests he may force Australia to sacrifice a mobile prop for a scrummaging one (eg putting Slipper in ahead of the speed merchant Benny Robinson).

Good luck Besty and hope you can convince blinkered Gatland that you will be more than a bit-part player!

Feel bad for Hartley but end of the day he'd been warned.

Great to see Best touring, can already feel the turnover count doubling!

Slightly worried now though as both Youngs and Best can be worse then shaky at lineout time.

Great news for Best. The glaring omission from the original squad that made many question what Gatland was thinking. If there is any sort of sense amongst the Lions coaches he'll now start all the tests.

yappysnap wrote:Feel bad for Hartley but end of the day he'd been warned.

Great to see Best touring, can already feel the turnover count doubling!

Slightly worried now though as both Youngs and Best can be worse then shaky at lineout time.

To be fair Yappy, that's one area he's improved to no end as the tail of the season came in. Having his lineout leader back and fit helped too and with possibly 5 lineout options in the pack I can't see lineout being one of our weaknesses!

I'm disappointed he won't be going. I rate him as an abrasive and effective hooker, and quite solid around the field. Both sides have/are losing some of their best players thru injuries already and it would be a shame to lose one thru self infliction. I think he woudl have been nailed on test starter, and rather have the Wallabies played against the best Lions have, as I am sure the Lions would rather face the best Wallaby side possible.

Hartley I feel has been getting his game together, and the extra bulk would have counted. But now he's out I'm also sadder at the chance of the Lions with 14 men for 10 minutes diminishing

yappysnap wrote:Feel bad for Hartley but end of the day he'd been warned.

I have no sympathy for him at all. The guy proved (yet again) on Saturday that he is an idiot. He got exactly what he deserved and I think the Lions will benefit as they now have the 3 hookers that the vast majority of people thought they should have picked in the first place.

Forget Hartley. Good luck to Best!

Best should have been picked and the beginging but glad that its worked out for him.

IMO Best should be starting hooker and while his darts have been picked out as a weakness, Ulster had the best lineout stats in the run to the H-cup final last year, and it was a real weapon.

Can't always balme the hooker when its not working, but when he has a good lineout operator (like Muller) it goes very well (like last year in h-cup when it was the best), but when missing someone like that it can go awry (like 6 nations), With POC, and Alun Wyn Jones I'd say it would be fine.

OzT wrote:I'm disappointed he won't be going. I rate him as an abrasive and effective hooker, and quite solid around the field. Both sides have/are losing some of their best players thru injuries already and it would be a shame to lose one thru self infliction. I think he woudl have been nailed on test starter, and rather have the Wallabies played against the best Lions have, as I am sure the Lions would rather face the best Wallaby side possible.

Hartley I feel has been getting his game together, and the extra bulk would have counted. But now he's out I'm also sadder at the chance of the Lions with 14 men for 10 minutes diminishing

Hartley is by no means one of the Lions best players. He was very lucky to be selected in the first place and the Lions have dodged a bullet in having him suspended before the tour started because it was always going to happen so best that it happened when it can cause less disruptance. In any case anyone who know anything about Lions rugby know Rory Best is a much better player.

I do not feel at all sorry for Hartley given his rap sheet. He should never have been a Lion.

GunsGerms wrote:In any case anyone who know anything about Lions rugby know Rory Best is a much better player.

That'll be Gatland who doesn't know anything about Lions rugby then. Worrying for the tour?

Sorry if this has already been covered, but after the dropout was kicked straight out, should it not have been a penalty awarded for intentional offending, rather than a scrum?

It was hardly cynical play trying to gain his team an advantage. Tigers were given the choice of how they wished to restart the game as Saints had failed to do so and chose a scrum.

Borrowed from the Tigers forum:

13.14 Drop-out goes directly into touch The ball must land in the field of play. If it is kicked directly into touch, the opposing team has three choices: To have another drop-out, or To have a scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line, and they throw in the ball, or To accept the kick. If they accept the kick, the throw-in is on the 22-metre line.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Sorry if this has already been covered, but after the dropout was kicked straight out, should it not have been a penalty awarded for intentional offending, rather than a scrum?

I wondered the same thing. Since Barnes had just told Saints they couldn't kick it straight out, perhaps his first reaction was that Myler had just made a mistake.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Sorry if this has already been covered, but after the dropout was kicked straight out, should it not have been a penalty awarded for intentional offending, rather than a scrum?

I felt that Myler was trying to grubber it into touch, so poor execution rather than a deliberate attempt.

I know but if a scrum offence takes place (ie accidentally kicking straight out) after the 40 minutes is up, the ref would normally just blow for half time. The only way play would continue should be if it was a penalty offence.

Law 5.7(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

If it wasn't deliberate, then as a scrum offence only, it should have resulted in the half time whistle

I think you've got to feel bad for Hartley given whats at stake, he's just blown the biggest opportunity of his career. Of course- its entirely his own fault. Thats not going to make it any easier to live with though is it?

I don't think Hartley is a better player than Best, I don't think the Lions are losing anything at all.

I think the issue is that the game had to restart as the drop out was awarded before 40 mins was up.

If there had been a knock on after the restart then it would have been half time.

I should add that I wasn't watching the match, just trying to interpret what went on.

I'm pretty sure it should have restarted with a penalty though. The drop out was awarded before 40 minutes but the scrum/option wasn't. The ball was in play for the split second between being kicked and crossing the line. The laws don't allow for a scrum or an option to be given after time has expired. My understanding is that under Law 5.7(e) the only two possible outcomes from kicking the ball straight out should be either a penalty for a deliberate offence or the half-time whistle for an unintentional one.

No doubt if a penalty had been awarded Hartley would still have mouthed off and still been red carded though!

maestegmafia wrote:Sent off for bad language to the referee Wayne Barnes. Well, this isn't soccer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22668122





Hartley now given an eleven week ban...!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22674429

Doesn't history show that Wayne Branes doesn't like Kiwis ?

I don't think the ball was in play. I think it has to touch the ground or another player or the ref to be in play.

That is why you cannot kick a drop goal from a restart.

The game had to restart.
Saints gave away their chance to restart the game.
Tigers elected to restart with a scrum.
Game restarts.

It's the same as when a scrum is awarded just before the clock goes red. The scrum has to be completed even if it takes 6 resets. Otherwise the defending team would just fake a slip and the ref would blow for time.

You could be right, the law doesn't seem to be clear about whether the ball is in play after a drop out straight to touch, or whether that even matters in the context of time elapsed. Maybe a ref could clear this up?

Not that it matters really, I'm just being a law geek

Pat_Mustard wrote:You could be right, the law doesn't seem to be clear about whether the ball is in play after a drop out straight to touch, or whether that even matters in the context of time elapsed. Maybe a ref could clear this up?

Not that it matters really, I'm just being a law geek

Don't go anywhere near Hartley then or he will call you a bad name!

George Hotel1895 wrote:
Doesn't history show that Wayne Branes doesn't like Kiwis ?

I don't want to dance on anyone's grave, but a wrong has been righted. I'm really delighted for Rory Best to have made the tour. With Healy & POC there as well, he has a very good chance of being a starter now.

I don't know what Gatland was thinking selecting Hartley in the first place - far too easy to wind up.

MrsP wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:You could be right, the law doesn't seem to be clear about whether the ball is in play after a drop out straight to touch, or whether that even matters in the context of time elapsed. Maybe a ref could clear this up?

Not that it matters really, I'm just being a law geek

Don't go anywhere near Hartley then or he will call you a bad name!

I've been called them all

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:In any case anyone who know anything about Lions rugby know Rory Best is a much better player.

That'll be Gatland who doesn't know anything about Lions rugby then. Worrying for the tour?

Gatland is a Kiwi, Hartley is a Kiwi. Coincidence?



This lastest indiscretion has proved Gatland wrong on Hartley but hopefully Gatland will get enough things right to win the series. History has shown that he usually does.