Hartley Out of Lions Tour Best called up.

First topic message reminder :

Sent off for bad language to the referee Wayne Barnes. Well, this isn't soccer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22668122





Hartley now given an eleven week ban...!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22674429

MrsP wrote:Do you think Malinder will stand by him, even now?

That's a great question. Mallinder is backing Hartley in public now, but he has no choice for the moment. To me and my Saint-like brethren, it is time for Hartley to find a semi-dignified way to leave the Gardens. Knowing the Barwells, I cannot see this going on much longer.

Another question is whether Mallinder has allowed Hartley's behaviour to go for too long. At some point, it stops being only Hartley's issue and becomes a management problem, methinks. It will be hard for Mallinder to regain some lost credibility. And, along with certain coaching decisions (such as our starting XV at Ulster), perhaps puts Mallinder on the bubble.

As for Hartley, we need to ship him off to some remote land far, far away.
How about................Ireland!
No.
Wait..........................Wales!

Me finds humour here.

doctor_grey wrote:As for Hartley, we need to ship him off to some remote land far, far away.

If he ever gets the impression the door the England door is closed, he might consider France.

Grey,

What do you make of the fact that neither Malindar nor any of Hartley's team mates went with him to the hearing?

Was this just logistics or can we read more into it?

I know that if one of my team mates was going to miss the Lions tour because of a misunderstanding and I could throw any light on the subject, I would move heaven and earth to get there. Surely, if he had been speaking to one of his props as he claimed, they would have gone to the hearing to give evidence on his behalf, no?

I hadn't heard that. Mallinder not going is a surprise to me. Any of the rest of his team? Perhaps leads to the obvious conclusion? Or, just for counter-point, perhaps that he agreed to bite the bullet, was not going to fight a fight he thought couldn't be won and decided to take his punishment and move on? Without a doubt, this is the lesser of the two possibilities. His teammates are clearly furious. In particular, I feel bad for Tiny and Brian Mujati. Mujati is such a class act he won't say anything, certainly not in the heat of the moment.

One of the team docs told me (after talking to a local newspaper, so I am not speaking out of school) that the team agreed to keep the focus on the team and not take the low road in any way.

Interesting mutterings from some club folks about possible captains for next season if indeed Hartley is unfrocked/moved. Either Tom Wood, who will not be with the club for more than 50% of the matches due to International duty, or Samu Manoa.

Dorian West was there along with Max Duthie the solicitor. No one else mentioned and no witnesses called that I could see.

Hartley did fight his case. They showed some previously unseen video to help though I'm not sure it actually helped at all from my reading of the judgement.

He said he thought Barnes was mistaken in thinking any of his comments had been aimed at him.

Mallinder must certainly accept a degree of responsibility for allowing things to get to this level.

Here's a comment Mallinder made about Dylan Hartley and Callum Clark:

"What you have there is two very competitive players, outstanding rugby players, and you can't take away that competitive edge and sometimes, whether it's through frustration, people sometimes go over the top. We'll support him as we will with Dylan".

Loyalty is admirable but dealing with bad apples is an important part of coaching. Failure to instill discipline when needed may have cost them a Premiership title.

When Martin Johnson left England job I thought Mallinder was the only logical choice but to be honest I really wonder where England would be if he took charge. Lancaster did a great job of instilling hard work ethic and discipline.

Stuart Lancaster commands strict discipline code for tour to South Africa - http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/rugby-union/england/news/lancaster-commands-strict-discipline_86590.html

Stuart Lancaster stands firm on ill-discipline in England camp - http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/stuart-lancaster-stands-firm-on-illdiscipline-in-england-camp-7313148.html

Stuart Lancaster fires discipline warning to England’s Chris Ashton - http://metro.co.uk/2012/11/05/stuart-lancaster-fires-discipline-warning-to-englands-chris-ashton-614851/

We must be able to trust our players, says Lancaster - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2142885/Stuart-Lancaster-says-needs-trust-players.html

Stuart Lancaster lays down the law on ill discipline to Danny Care - http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article3411153.ece

Lancaster issues tough response as Armitage is arrested over assault - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2093975/Stuart-Lancaster-tough-Delon-Armitage.html

Lancaster issues warning to Hartley - http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/183486.html

The most recent one in the last day or so is especially interesting as it highlights that England coach Stuart Lancaster has warned Northampton hooker Dylan Hartley that he will have to earn his trust once again if he is to return to the international set-up.

I think this attitude has been 100% necessary especially given all the nonsense that occurred during the RWC. But Northampton/Mallinder clearly don't have the same standards.

Who'd have him? A liability.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:As for Hartley, we need to ship him off to some remote land far, far away.

If he ever gets the impression the door the England door is closed, he might consider France.

Could always deport him back to New Zealand

marty2086 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:As for Hartley, we need to ship him off to some remote land far, far away.

If he ever gets the impression the door the England door is closed, he might consider France.

Could always deport him back to New Zealand

No returns sorry mate

He's well out of warranty

He decided he wanted to play for England and you said yes so he's all yours.

i'm competitive but i wouldn't break someone's arm....mallinder is way out of touch

There's been some discussion about who might captain the midweek side.

I'm wondering whether Gatland might actually have had it in mind to give Hartley a chance in that role.

nganboy wrote:He decided he wanted to play for England and you said yes so he's all yours.

Im an Irishman so hes only our problem when hes punching and biting or players

Rugby Fan wrote:There's been some discussion about who might captain the midweek side.

I'm wondering whether Gatland might actually have had it in mind to give Hartley a chance in that role.

Considering what Gatland said about Hartley before, in surprised Hartley ever made the tour...!

There have been a number of selections that look like the influence of other coaches opinions on players they have worked with. Hartley for one, Stevens, Farrell and Vunipola are others.

maestegmafia wrote:...There have been a number of selections that look like the influence of other coaches. Hartley for one...

Gatland is a former hooker. You can't have a lot of faith in his strength of mind if you think he'll be unduly influenced by others even when it comes to his own speciality.

Rugby Fan,

I think its highly likely that he would take on the advice of his specialist scrum coach Graham Rowantree.

Rugby Fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:...There have been a number of selections that look like the influence of other coaches. Hartley for one...

Gatland is a former hooker. You can't have a lot of faith in his strength of mind if you think he'll be unduly influenced by others even when it comes to his own speciality.

That's a bizarre statement? If he was a flyhalf would it be different?

The coaches all had a say in the squad.

Of course Rowntree would advise on the scrum issues, but you would think ultimately Gatland would select the squad based on his all round gameplan, but there may be the odd selection where Gatland shows trust enough in his coaches to select one of options?

red_stag wrote:Rugby Fan,

I think its highly likely that he would take on the advice of his specialist scrum coach Graham Rowantree.

Garland values Rowntree very highly and Farrell too.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Depends whether he's adjudged to have abused Barnes or directed his language as Mallinder claims at Tom Youngs who had just helped Tigers stuff him and his Saints pack in the scrum.

Will all come down to what the disciplinary committee decide. No preferential treatment was given to Quinlan and his gauge before the last tour though.

Here is an article from BBC which clearly explains the ordeal.


Dylan Hartley to miss Lions tour after accepting ban

Dylan Hartley will not appeal against his 11-week ban - a decision that rules him out of the British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.
Hartley was suspended after being found guilty of verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes in the Premiership final.
The England hooker, 27, was shown a red card in Northampton's defeat by Leicester on 25 May.
Ulster's Rory Best has been called into the 37-man Lions squad as Hartley's replacement.
Northampton told BBC Sport that Hartley has decided against appealing the RFU's decision.
Dylan Hartley's England record
Age: 27
Caps: 47
Captained England against South Africa in June 2012.
England's third most capped hooker.
Saints' captain was sent off in his side's 37-17 loss to Leicester for swearing at Barnes and calling him a "cheat" after a penalty decision went against his team.
Hartley claimed he was talking to opposing hooker Tom Youngs but a RFU disciplinary hearing did not accept his explanation.
It said: "The referee had no doubt that the words were directed at him.
"There is no reason why the referee should make this up, and we accept that he would have given the player the benefit of any doubt.
"He was close enough to know what was said and what was meant."
The RFU also felt Hartley had changed his version of events when he attended the hearing.
It said: "We believe that he quickly regretted what he had done and that as soon as he left the field of play he told his team management that he had directed the comments to Tom Youngs, who was on the ground after the scrum had collapsed.
"We observed that this account changed subtly, no doubt after he had examined the DVD footage showing that his eyes were not looking downwards.
"The version provided to the panel was that he had spoken to Soane Tonga'uiha, who was between him and the referee, about Tom Youngs and then looked down at Youngs.
"In our view this is not a credible explanation."
Hartley will be free to play again on 1 September 2013.

maestegmafia wrote:

red_stag wrote:Rugby Fan,

I think its highly likely that he would take on the advice of his specialist scrum coach Graham Rowantree.

Garland values Rowntree very highly and Farrell too.

Course he does and I certainly wouldnt blame him for going on advice of other coaches.

In fact I'd be highly critical if he would not take advice of the others on board.

red_stag wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

red_stag wrote:Rugby Fan,

I think its highly likely that he would take on the advice of his specialist scrum coach Graham Rowantree.

Garland values Rowntree very highly and Farrell too.

Course he does and I certainly wouldnt blame him for going on advice of other coaches.

In fact I'd be highly critical if he would not take advice of the others on board.

It is primarily their only role before the coaching starts.