Hartley Out of Lions Tour Best called up.

First topic message reminder :

Sent off for bad language to the referee Wayne Barnes. Well, this isn't soccer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22668122





Hartley now given an eleven week ban...!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22674429

Yeah, that was the Cardiff game where Hartley nailed all his throws and we won, I think.

There is of course, the possibility that hartley was sucking up to fellow kiwi Gatland by appealing to common ground: Barnes is a cheat. This may have the contrary effect of propelling him into starting hooker!

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah, that was the Cardiff game where Hartley nailed all his throws and we won, I think.

Sadly ancient history, but yeah I think I was wrong and you and thomh correct.

Didn't see it, so can't offer my 100% correct opinion on the incident specifically

But I'll just say this. Given that all teams know that they'll cheat if they can get away with things that a ref can't see; given that cheating at one level or another takes place in virtually every game, given that Hartley probably knows how to cheat as well as any other player on any other side... would he really utter the comment "F**king cheat" at a fellow player? It just seems a pointless taunt or angry outburst to make at a fellow player.....................which leads me moreso towards the other conclusion.

You are making the mistake of applying logic there! Similarly if any player recently selected for the lions knew he would face a red card and lengthy ban for abusing an official then why would be do it?

However I recall the recent incident from super rugby where a kiwi official was abused constantly throughout a game by sharks players and staff and I don't recall their being any bans handed out there. In fact it was said at the time that all officials expect some level of abuse during all matches. Is Barnes being a bit precious and childish here? Especially since we all know he tends to be a home team ref and hence the allegations may not be too inaccurate in all truth?

GloriousEmpire wrote:You are making the mistake of applying logic there! Similarly if any player recently selected for the lions knew he would face a red card and lengthy ban for abusing an official then why would be do it?

However I recall the recent incident from super rugby where a kiwi official was abused constantly throughout a game by sharks players and staff and I don't recall their being any bans handed out there. In fact it was said at the time that all officials expect some level of abuse during all matches. Is Barnes being a bit precious and childish here? Especially since we all know he tends to be a home team ref and hence the allegations may not be too inaccurate in all truth?

Really?

I would be appalled if any official tolerated being called a cheat by any player!

I would also be appalled by any organisation who allowed its officials to be abused in that way!

I'm not suggesting that you made this up by the way just absolutely amazed that it could be true!

Apologies it was Stormers not Sharks. The result was a trivial team fine ynder the law:

"All persons shall not use crude or abusive language or gestures towards referees, assistant referees, match officials"

http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2013/rugby/story/182796.html

Consistency in rugby? Pffff.

I bet Northampton would prefer a ban to a hefty fine.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8701326,00.html

Better link...apparently he was literally called a "cheat" and sworn at throughout the match, including the suggestion that he "should go back to club rugby."

The other thing to be considered is if Hartley gets off with claiming it was directed at Tom Youngs, how is that going to affect team relations. Yes they're front rowers and there's an unwritten law of what happens in the scrum stays in the scrum but it can't be good for team harmony if your No.2 and No.3 Hookers are seen to be at each other a week before a big tour?

As Moore said, he's a stupid boy and should have watched his language after being warned by Barnes. Myler has played with Barnes as the ref more than enough to understand his accent and Hartley let his team mates down with his idiocy. Ban him, strip him of the Saints captaincy, fine Saints, whatever. He shouldn't be on the tour now after all the controversy which is a pity as he's been playing really well in the past few weeks.

People say stuff in work places to each other far worse than this. I cop mouthfuls of flack every day, it's just a symptom of pressure. Surely pro rugby players are equally capable of letting this stuff go as we are. I don't see the problem.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:The other thing to be considered is if Hartley gets off with claiming it was directed at Tom Youngs, how is that going to affect team relations. Yes they're front rowers and there's an unwritten law of what happens in the scrum stays in the scrum but it can't be good for team harmony if your No.2 and No.3 Hookers are seen to be at each other a week before a big tour?

Tuilagi thumped Ashton and they managed to put that behind them. I don't see verbals being particularly disruptive.

If its directed at Tom Youngs I dont expect any major fall out in terms of team relations.

As stupid as Hartley is I'd be astounded if anyone would be stupid enough to say that to a referee.

What about you stag? Been called a cheat by players?

HammerofThunor wrote:

MrsP wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

MrsP wrote:Haven't seen the incident but if Gatland was willing to select Hartley despite his appalling disciplinary record does anyone really think this episode will make him change his mind?

Clearly if Hartley gets a lengthy ban he will not tour but Gatland has already shown that he doesn't care that Hartley is an illdiscipilined... .

Hartley has been publicly stating how he has been dealing with his anger management issues since his last ban in December last year. Maybe the lions coaches that know Hartley best, were convinced he had sorted his issues out.

But, is not what we have been hearing with each Hartley incident? How is actually a fantastic guy and he has sorted himself out and then....

He may be "dealing with his anger management issues" but not in a very effect way!

Well that depends doesn't. If he called Barnes a "f-ing cheat" then you're right. If he accused a hooker of cheating and just swore then it's nothing (other than not responding to Barnes and the Saints captaincy should be taken off him, Woods?).

More likely that Barnes is right and Hartley lying his arse off to avoid another ban..!

Will this be the fourth in three seasons for him?

GloriousEmpire wrote:What about you stag? Been called a cheat by players?

I have once and and have reacted with a red card. Was bought a drink and given an apology after the game by him and I noted it in my sending off report that the player apologised.

His frustration was that I awarded a penalty in front of the posts with time expired. They lost by 2 points as a result and were knocked out of the cup.

Just wanted someone to blame but he sure as heck wasnt going to question my integrity cos he was pished off.

I do think this business that rugby fans/players have respect for the referee is very much dying a death to be honest.

Truth be told I've got quite disillutioned with refereeing this season; considering trying to go back playing. The camaraderie is missed.

Red card with time expired? Bit of a gesture?

I hope you didn't mention the bribe in your report!

So, Barnes warned Hartley once: no more bad language? Can anyone say whether or not he meant 'directed at him'? Was he specific or just warning Hartley about language in general?

Because if he had to be warned once, it probably means Hartley is stupid enough to curse a ref a first time, nevermind the next time when it leads to a red.

But ...devil's advocate here. What's the scenario if Barnes knew Hartley wasn't shouting at him and yet pinged him for it anyway? Was that Barnes being the 'f**king cheat' after the event rather than before it???

No, not getting at Barnes or anyone...just wondering about the technicality of when and where Hartley might have been telling a truth depending on what Barnes actually believed???

A real riddle there fly

GloriousEmpire wrote:Red card with time expired? Bit of a gesture?

I hope you didn't mention the bribe in your report!

A red card is a red card.

You would always mention a players conduct in a report. Player admitted his fault and apologised for his actions post game OR Player refused to leave the pitch and continued to shout abuse; he later confronted the referee in an intimidating manner.

Its relevant to note.

...player slipped a pint my way as he apologised????

It will hardly be a loss to the Lions squad if Hartley gets a ban. Best was always the better choice, and a bit of a puzzle that he wasn't selected in the first place. Maybe Gats really does have a grudge against him, and so may not pick Best even if Hartley is banned. If not Best then Owens if he's fit.

Those numbers! Gats will have to have a meeting with the Prime Minister, the Taoiseach and First Ministers to sort it all out now. His next move could lead to war.

15 - 10 - 10
16 - 9 - 9

or.................. Hartley leading the singsongs all the way down to Oz

11 week ban for Hartley.

Anyone got Rory Best's number?

Ozzy3213 wrote:11 week ban for Hartley.

I guess he's not going to the Lions dinner tonight.

RORY BEST! The decision it should have been, and thats coming from an england fan

Best is the Best!

.

Hartley only has himself to blame, he was warned so even if not directed at Barnes, he needed to be careful-just stupid. I wouldnt have selected him in 1st place, but have to say I do feel bad for the guy missing out on the Lions. Just hearing he got 11 week ban- possibly a bit unlucky but fair call IMO.

Ozzy3213 wrote:11 week ban for Hartley.

Anyone got Rory Best's number?

I guess we find out if the far-fetched rumours about Gatland having a grudge against Rory are bullspit or not! Since he wasn't picked he's raised his game for Ulster. Owens has been injured, Rees and Ford not in the same form... surely now, surely?

What does Gatland have against Rory? Even if it is a false far-fetched rumour!

What's the rumour?

Why do people think Gatland has a grudge against Best? Is it cos there can be no other reason for not being selected? Or is there something I havnt heard about?

SecretFly wrote:What does Gatland have against Rory? Even if it is a false far-fetched rumour!

What's the rumour?

It's not so much a rumour as people trying to rationalise his exclusion. I don't buy into it at all. I would say he's lost out because Rowntree and Gatland have mainly gone for players in the front they know and are used to working with.

I can't see now why you wouldn't pick Best. But if its Rees it will be because of the Gatland/Wales factor not because of some fanciful notion of a 'grudge'. I can't imagine Ford or Owens could be ahead of him.

So I guess as we speak Rory Best's head is being photoshopped into the Lions team pic? Wonder if Hartley will have to give back his Lions shirt, kit bag & other merch?

11 weeks seems harsh although I guess his past record has something to do with it. Think missing the Lions tour would have been more than enough though.
I don't believe the rumour myself. As Notch has said, I think it more that others are trying to fill the gaps as without any clear reason it's hard to understand Bests exclusion. If he remains to be snubbed that will add weight to the rumour.
Best has to be picked.

Slightly off topic but anyone any news of Kearneys injury?

11 weeks? And yet we've seen potentially career ending, life endangering or at least crippling foul play punished by sentences half or quarter of that!!! This is insane!

Good riddance!
Best must be selected now and will e well motivated to show Rowntree what he nearly missed by picking his Kiwi mate.

No great loss.

26 weeks for gouging
8 weeks for biting
11 weeks for calling a ref a 'f**king cheat'

Classy guy. Happy not to be represented by him.

Hopefully Best will now be picked as he should have been in the first place!

HAHAHAHAHA Karma I guess for being a

Know a better hooker and person like Rory Best should go. What was gatland thinking leaving him out in the first place.
Was the starting test hooker I thought before the team was announced.
Pack your bags Rory, he deserves it. Know my original choice front row of Gethin, Rory and Adam might still happen. We won't need a back row with them 3 playing.

Barnes told the disciplinary panel that if he wasn't absolutely certain that Hartley WAS speaking to him, he wouldn't have issued the card... doesn't say much though, does it? Barnes would have thought yesterday's game was all about him.

The thing is, Barnes had pulled him to one side and spoke to him about an earlier utterance, although I can't remember the exact terms he used, it was something along the lines of "If you say something like that again and I think that it might be aimed at me, I'll act on it."

That was clear enough for me, Hartley has nobody to blame but himself for what happened afterwards, and to be quite frank, I'll be happy to see Best on tour and wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make the first Test as a starter.

11 weeks should be enough of a warning, not only to Hartley, but also to every other player out there, amateur or professional, that abuse of officials will simply not be tolerated.

what a plonker.

Hartley's will have spent 47 weeks suspended from playing rugby by the end of this ban, that's effectively a whole season. How he ever became a captain is beyond me

PJHolybloke wrote:Barnes told the disciplinary panel that if he wasn't absolutely certain that Hartley WAS speaking to him, he wouldn't have issued the card... doesn't say much though, does it? Barnes would have thought yesterday's game was all about him.

The thing is, Barnes had pulled him to one side and spoke to him about an earlier utterance, although I can't remember the exact terms he used, it was something along the lines of "If you say something like that again and I think that it might be aimed at me, I'll act on it."

That was clear enough for me, Hartley has nobody to blame but himself for what happened afterwards, and to be quite frank, I'll be happy to see Best on tour and wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make the first Test as a starter.

11 weeks should be enough of a warning, not only to Hartley, but also to every other player out there, amateur or professional, that abuse of officials will simply not be tolerated.

Agreed PJ - the official transcipt was quoted in the Telegraph and I think it was reiterated in the hearing:

Hartley had been warned about his language by Barnes two minutes before his dismissal. The referee was heard saying: “Please keep your comments to yourself or I may have to deal with it. Do not talk to me like that.”

He only has himself to blame. This is not a tour for people just starting to deal with personal issues. It's intensive as hell and we need people we can depend on not to let the side down.

I imagine that Best will be the replacement. Ford is better than Owens when both are on form but Ford has been some way off that this season whereas Owens is in great fettle and so the shirt has to be Rory's or Ken's.

Surely 11 weeks or 3 weeks makes no odds.

He would miss the same amount of competitive rugby.

Does anyone actually think Hartley is capable/willing/interested in changing?

I should add, harsh as it sounds, I have just begun to feel an attachment to this Lions squad. I really had a problem giving my support to a team with Hartley involved. I wasn't sure how much of that was disappointment at the exclusion of Best but I feel better about this squad already no matter who replaces that fool!

George Carlin wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Barnes told the disciplinary panel that if he wasn't absolutely certain that Hartley WAS speaking to him, he wouldn't have issued the card... doesn't say much though, does it? Barnes would have thought yesterday's game was all about him.

The thing is, Barnes had pulled him to one side and spoke to him about an earlier utterance, although I can't remember the exact terms he used, it was something along the lines of "If you say something like that again and I think that it might be aimed at me, I'll act on it."

That was clear enough for me, Hartley has nobody to blame but himself for what happened afterwards, and to be quite frank, I'll be happy to see Best on tour and wouldn't be at all surprised to see him make the first Test as a starter.

11 weeks should be enough of a warning, not only to Hartley, but also to every other player out there, amateur or professional, that abuse of officials will simply not be tolerated.

Agreed PJ - the official transcipt was quoted in the Telegraph and I think it was reiterated in the hearing:

Hartley had been warned about his language by Barnes two minutes before his dismissal. The referee was heard saying: “Please keep your comments to yourself or I may have to deal with it. Do not talk to me like that.”

He only has himself to blame. This is not a tour for people just starting to deal with personal issues. It's intensive as hell and we need people we can depend on not to let the side down.

I imagine that Best will be the replacement. Ford is better than Owens when both are on form but Ford has been some way off that this season whereas Owens is in great fettle and so the shirt has to be Rory's or Ken's.

I'm not so sure I don't think Gatland rates Best, Hibbard and Best are the two in form hookers and therefore you can't help but think Gatland doesn't like something about Best's game. I doubt Owens would be called up either simply for political reasons, if Owens is called up it will confirm, in some people's eyes, a Welsh bias and I'm not sure if the coaching staff would risk it having said that Ford would be the only other option but he is woefully off form at the moment although a Lions call-up would be a confidence boost.
Personally I'd choose Best or Ford, Best because he is on form and very, very consistent as well as that he possesses leadership qualities on the other hand Ford is, in my opinion, on form the best British and Irish hooker in the loose and in the scrum unfortunately his lineout lets him down.

Come on Gatland put us (and Rory) out of our misery! I've got everything crossed here for a Best call-up, parts of the anatomy which were never meant to be crossed...

Tool with a capital T, as player and skipper he's let himself, Saints and the Lions all down at once.

Best please!

Sure isn't Owens out of the welsh tour to Japan through injury anyway? Maybe I have that wrong

11 weeks ban then. only got himself to blame.