Gatland Making a huge Mistake against Combined Queensland/NSW Country??

by winchester Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 17:51

Whats Gatland playing at? Hogg at 10 with no bench cover? Maitland at FB? No goalkicker? Madness.

No matter how well Hogg plays at 10 he isnt going to start there for the Test. We all know that. So whats the point? The Lions need to be using these limited warm up matches to try and test out genuine combinations that will realistically be used against Australia. Now Hogg at ten not only jeopardises the fixture result but also does not give the Roberts/BOD partnership experience with a 10 that will start the Test games. Utterly pointless!

If Hogg has a howler or is injured then there isnt even any cover for him! Winning the warm up games might not be essentially but you dont want to lose momentum by throwing them away or making hard work of them.

Only reason I can think of for this is that Gats is worried by the injury list and wants to avoid Sexton/Farrell getting hurt. But this is pointless and a missed opportunity!

by Shifty Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 17:58

I agree it is a stupid decision, why didn't they just take James Hook as well and have him slot in when needed.

by sickofwendy Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:03

Don't think it will make much difference as they are playing farmers and tradesman.
The could play Stevens at 10 and win.
Blame the aussies lack of depth rather than gatland.

by 123456789 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:04

What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.
I wouldn't worry about Maitland, he played 15 for the Crusaders and it's important to give him game time there if it becomes essential same as with Hogg.
If Hogg has a howler Gatland's already said that Halfpenny or Davies will cover and despite his young age Hogg is quite an experienced international player and with players like O'Driscoll and Roberts in the centre helping him and the familiarity of Gray and Maitland on the pitch he'll be quite comfortable as well as that Murray showed with Paddy Jackson in the six nations that when playing with inexperienced fly-halves he's quite effective.
Also I think Gatland would have to work a bit harder to lose this game than play Hogg at stand-off considering it's against a team of amateurs who've never played with each other before or in other words imagine how bad the Barbarians were, then imagine how bad they'd have been without the professional players and then multiply it by ten. I'm hardly Gatland's biggest fan (as some of you may have picked up on the day the squad was announced) but I think this is a good decision, he's testing players out of their usual positions but positions they may have to play in should their be injuries in the ilk of the second test in South Africa and also we'll see if Hogg has the potential to be a good outside-half without damaging Glasgow, Scotland and, most probably, the Lions.

by winchester Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:06

sickofwendy wrote:Don't think it will make much difference as they are playing farmers and tradesman.
The could play Stevens at 10 and win.
Blame the aussies lack of depth rather than gatland.

Its not just about the result. We need to use these fixtures to develop and test out realistic partnerships and strategies!

by winchester Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:12

123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.
I wouldn't worry about Maitland, he played 15 for the Crusaders and it's important to give him game time there if it becomes essential same as with Hogg.
If Hogg has a howler Gatland's already said that Halfpenny or Davies will cover and despite his young age Hogg is quite an experienced international player and with players like O'Driscoll and Roberts in the centre helping him and the familiarity of Gray and Maitland on the pitch he'll be quite comfortable as well as that Murray showed with Paddy Jackson in the six nations that when playing with inexperienced fly-halves he's quite effective.
Also I think Gatland would have to work a bit harder to lose this game than play Hogg at stand-off considering it's against a team of amateurs who've never played with each other before or in other words imagine how bad the Barbarians were, then imagine how bad they'd have been without the professional players and then multiply it by ten. I'm hardly Gatland's biggest fan (as some of you may have picked up on the day the squad was announced) but I think this is a good decision, he's testing players out of their usual positions but positions they may have to play in should their be injuries in the ilk of the second test in South Africa and also we'll see if Hogg has the potential to be a good outside-half without damaging Glasgow, Scotland and, most probably, the Lions.

No matter what Hogg does there is no way he is going to start a test at 10. Even if OF or JS were injured he would call up an experienced 10 to start the Test with. Putting Davies or Halfpenny in is just the same. Pointless in terms of the Test game. To not even have OF/JS to come off the bench and give them a run with BOD/Roberts is also a mistake. They will win the game but Gatland wont have learned anything.

by flankertye Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:12

Gatland is a prat, even though he's given him a monster front 5 to work off.
Just call up freddie Burns I'll scream if Hook gets a call up

by sickofwendy Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:13

I think we are in other positions.sexton and farrell were always going to be rested for this game.Rightly or wrongly gatland was always going to select hogs at 10 for this game.
It's part of his masterplan

by maestegmafia Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:15

123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

by 123456789 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:50

maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

by maestegmafia Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:59

123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

by 123456789 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 19:06

maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

I think this is mainly a dislike of Farrell rather than his playing ability, he isn't a creative ten but Sexton is and there's no point having two identical players, he can kick, pass and tackle. He isn't great he's the best of a bad bunch who are trailing Sexton who is, in my opinion, one of the top two fly-halves in the world. Farrell can do everything Biggar can do, Hook is too unpredictable and has never managed to become Wales' permanent first choice despite his unquestionable talent, Ruiradh Jackson is in a similar position to Hook without the talent and the rest are too inexperienced. Wilkinson would have been my choice and I'd have pushed the boat out to get him, allowing him to arrive late, because he's experienced and strikes fear into the Australians as well as being a fantastic player but Gatland shot himself in the foot there.

by fa0019 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 19:18

Well it's not a mistake given he's only taken 2 flyhalves...... The problem with lack of cover is that certain players take the brunt of the game time which knackers them out.... Farrell and sexton will both play in all 3 test matches subject to fitness.... They can't play every other dirt tracker match.

It looks like Hogg won't play in the test series though... But had he done so who would have played 10 in the rebels and brumbies matches.... Both a few days before test matches.

It's is where gatland has fallen short. He needs 3 flyhalves and his loyalty to players like gethin and Kearney have been ridiculous... All it has mean is that the fit players in those respected positions have had to cover their game time.... And will additionally have to prepare for the tests.

Kearney will not feature in the test series..... Halfpenny is one of the few nailed down starters.... And then others like maitland are better all round 3/4s for the bench.... And that's if maitland doesn't start... Cuthbert is too much of a risk IMO.

When is Kearney going to get his first start.... The brumbies midweek match... What a waste.... When Zebo, brown, Foden and even hook could have taken his place and played a part in helping the test players to rest properly.

Things like this can break a series.... He's all into the conditioning theory... But he is falling short here. I think he's done ok thus far mind.

by Imperialbigdave Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 19:51

I wouldnt worry about Maitland at 15. He played 15 almost exclusively in the ITM cup and has stated its his favoured position. Hes a fullback who plays wing rather than the other way round.

by belovedfrosties Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 0:32

maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

We get that you don't like Farrell Maes, but its getting rather pathetic now with how you seem to ignore everything good he does and maintain that he's rubbish when its obvious to everyone that this isn't the case.

First game against the Baa baas aside, he has shown himself to be a very good flyhalf. He has brought everything we knew he would (great defence, passing and goal kicking) and has also added a more varied and dangerous attack that no-one thought he had. He has made quite a lot of linebreaks, scored tries and has stood flat and made the lions look dangerous, open your eyes and judge him on what he's actually doing rather than on what you expected him to do.

by maestegmafia Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 0:37

belovedfrosties wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

We get that you don't like Farrell Maes, but its getting rather pathetic now with how you seem to ignore everything good he does and maintain that he's rubbish when its obvious to everyone that this isn't the case.

First game against the Baa baas aside, he has shown himself to be a very good flyhalf. He has brought everything we knew he would (great defence, passing and goal kicking) and has also added a more varied and dangerous attack that no-one thought he had. He has made quite a lot of linebreaks, scored tries and has stood flat and made the lions look dangerous, open your eyes and judge him on what he's actually doing rather than on what you expected him to do.

I am juging him on exactly what he is and is not doing.

He goes missing in games, makes glaring errors, he looks a liability.

by **Notch** Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 0:52

Spoiler:

by **Notch** Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 0:56

123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

I think this is mainly a dislike of Farrell rather than his playing ability, he isn't a creative ten but Sexton is and there's no point having two identical players, he can kick, pass and tackle.

He can pass- but is prone to errors in his passing game. He can kick- but only from the tee, his kicking game from hand has been inconsistent and ineffective on this tour. He can tackle well to be fair.

But can he think his way through a game? Can he make the right decisions at the right time, think clearly under pressure, identify what needs to be done and execute the appropriate skill? It really looks like he can't. He may the best of a bad bunch but he's shown some very poor form on this tour so far.

by **Notch** Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 1:03

maestegmafia wrote:
He goes missing in games, makes glaring errors, he looks a liability.

This poster may or may not be biased or trying to give Farrell a hard time because of his nationality. Maybe he is- maybe he isn't. It's a completely moot point. I totally understand why English fans will defend him and I'm the same when it comes to an Ulsterman- we all have our biases. I thought Best was below par in his only appearance and it hurt to even admit it to myself because I so desperately want him to be the test hooker.

But based on what Farrell has shown on this tour nobody is going to read that and not agree- even if you defend him to the hilt, even if you believe he can be the greatest thing since sliced bread on his day and admitting his form is poor burns you up inside- you know deep down this is true. Don't worry, you don't have to admit it on here. You can rail against me and defend your man as all good supporters should. But part of you agrees with this pithy but accurate assessment of where he is right now.

by maestegmafia Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 7:21

Thanks for the support but could you ease off with the incredibly unfair accusations that my dislike of Farrell is not because of his rugby...?

How can I dislike him by his nationality while also highly praising other players of the same nationality? I have heaped praise on Vunipola, Parling and the two Youngs as they deserve it.

by hugehandoff Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 8:57

2 points.

1. Hogg needs a run out at 10 as Sexton has had a strain (hamstring?). If Sexton fails a fitness test for the test series we need another 10 who has had some game time (I agreed with the comments on not taking Hook).

2. Farrell is not as bad as Maesteg is making out, but I do hope Sexton remains fit. For England I believe Burns is the future with Farrell on the bench.

by Toadfish Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 8:59

I don't mind his selection in this game as this is what he has to work with at the moment. What I'm worried about is that it looks like purely stubbornness that is stopping him calling up another fly half. Only taking two fly half’s has been taken as one of the biggest criticisms of his coaching so far and to not call up another one when your two players are carrying knocks and you are having to play a tour game without a single fly half in the squad just seems overly stubborn.

It's going to be interesting to see if this trait continues with the captaincy as at the moment (and prior to the tour) not many would have Warburton in the side over Tipuric. Only stubbornness would see Gatland not rectify this situation but time will tell.

by lostinwales Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 10:18

On that note I'd add that I am really hoping that Zebo when he turns up shows the electric form he had at the start of the 6N, not the passive display from the weekend. There was one fantastic Lion's qualified wing performance at the weekend and it wasnt him

by tigertattie Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 10:27

Never ceases to amaze me the number of posters on here that do not realise that Maitland has played plenty of games at 15

Also Gatland said from the off that Hogg was also being considered as 10 cover. BY cover I would say he is playing 10 in this game to give sexton and Farrell some R&R to make sure they do not get burn out!

Hogg will not be the test 10 unelss something disasterous happens! The bad thing for Hogg is it means he will most likly be on the bench for the tests with 1/2p starting!

Yes Gatland is crazy, but Hogg at 10 and Maitland at 15 is by no means the worst decision he has made so far in the tour!

by beshocked Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 10:36

Maestegmafia what did Farrell do to upset you so much? You seem to have a vendetta against him.

He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion,

This comment of yours is a load of £$%^. I don't know if it's just pig headedness on your part or genuine ignorance.

In my opinion Farrell did well vs New Zealand,Scotland and Ireland in the internationals this season.

He didn't start vs Italy. Was poor vs Wales admittedly but with a pack going backwards and not much help from his fellow backs he struggled.

He also played poorly vs Toulon and Saints. Doesn't instantly make Farrell a rubbish player.

He also helped notch up wins vs Quins x2,Saints,Munster,Ulster during the regular club season. His performance vs Racing Metro was particularly impressive - 11/11 kicks.

You seem to be a fan of Hook - what has he achieved this season in comparison?

Hook can't even keep the Welsh no 10 shirt. No I don't buy the argument that the Welsh management don't like him.

by lostinwales Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 11:02

*sigh....

The problem with Hook is that if you only saw a compilation video of all the good things he does you would think he was an all time great. But he has had plenty of chances and has never been consistent enough to hold down any position at international level - or even the Ospreys.

by beshocked Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 11:06

Well said lostinwales.

I would agree with you maestegmafia if you said that Gatland should have picked 3 fly halves - Sexton,Farrell and Biggar.

Picking Hogg as 10 cover is a big mistake but Gatland has no choice because he put himself in this position.

by R!skysports Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 11:09

tigertattie wrote:Never ceases to amaze me the number of posters on here that do not realise that Maitland has played plenty of games at 15

Also Gatland said from the off that Hogg was also being considered as 10 cover. BY cover I would say he is playing 10 in this game to give sexton and Farrell some R&R to make sure they do not get burn out!

Hogg will not be the test 10 unelss something disasterous happens! The bad thing for Hogg is it means he will most likly be on the bench for the tests with 1/2p starting!

Yes Gatland is crazy, but Hogg at 10 and Maitland at 15 is by no means the worst decision he has made so far in the tour!

I think that is the key point. No-one expects Hogg to start at 10 in the tests (even us Scots), but it is useful to rest the starters, while also giving some time to the emergency back up due to injury

(Unless of course he has a blinder and becomes the new McCarter)

by GunsGerms Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 11:14

winchester wrote:
sickofwendy wrote:Don't think it will make much difference as they are playing farmers and tradesman.
The could play Stevens at 10 and win.
Blame the aussies lack of depth rather than gatland.

Its not just about the result. We need to use these fixtures to develop and test out realistic partnerships and strategies!

Having taken Hogg as back up 10 its the right thing to do. If Sexton or Farrell get injured before the tests then Hogg is back up 10. With that in mind he needs game time at 10 for the Lions.

by **rodders** Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:02

I suspect he plans to use Hogg,rather than Farrell, on the bench for the test side......

by GunsGerms Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:05

rodders wrote:I suspect he plans to use Hogg,rather than Farrell, on the bench for the test side......

I would be shocked if that was the case. Farrell has been very decent.

by red_stag Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:15

Clearly he is just resting Farrell and Sexton.

They can not play in every single game. 10 games in 5 weeks is absolute burnout. Therefore they play 8 in 5 weeks which is more manageable.

I suspect he will do the exact same against the Melbourne Rebels.

BARBARIANS - Farrell
FORCE - Sexton
REDS - Farrell
COUNTIES - Hogg
WARATAHS - Farrell/Sexton
BRUMBIES - Farrell/Sexton (I can see Hogg covering 10 from bench in this game)
FIRST - Farrell/Sexton
REBELS - Hogg
SECOND - Farrell/Sexton
THIRD - Farrell/Sexton

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:21

rodders wrote:I suspect he plans to use Hogg,rather than Farrell, on the bench for the test side......

That could be a big mistake, Hogg is totaly untried at 10 at any senior level. The game tomorrow counts for nothing against a side that would struggle in the Championship. Farrell has his faullts and I am not a big fan, but he can play attacking rugby, see against the Kiwis and Scotland. Hogg could be completely out of his depth, it is too much to risk.

I would suggest that Charlie Hodgson is probably the best attacking fly half in the NH, even his defence his better this year. Why he wasn't approached is beyond me, if Sexton ws No. 1, CH would make a good dirt tracker. He has proven Lions credentials as well.

by red_stag Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:23

I think Hodgson was the unluckiest player in the 2005 Tour.

He actually was one of the few players who had a really good tour IMO.

by belovedfrosties Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:31

Notch wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

I think this is mainly a dislike of Farrell rather than his playing ability, he isn't a creative ten but Sexton is and there's no point having two identical players, he can kick, pass and tackle.

He can pass- but is prone to errors in his passing game. He can kick- but only from the tee, his kicking game from hand has been inconsistent and ineffective on this tour. He can tackle well to be fair.

But can he think his way through a game? Can he make the right decisions at the right time, think clearly under pressure, identify what needs to be done and execute the appropriate skill? It really looks like he can't. He may the best of a bad bunch but he's shown some very poor form on this tour so far.

I'm not saying that Farrell is the best player ever, i was aware of his weaknesses before the tour and was skeptical about how well he would perform. The first game against the Baa baas seemed to confirm my worries but since that game he has been very good. In those 2 games he has made very few errors (his kicking game from hand hasn't been great that is true) but other than that he has looked every bit a Lions fly half.

His passing has been very good since the Hong kong game, where everyones passing was poor and the service he was getting from Phillips was terrible at times. I'm also not sure what to make of the stuff that i've highlighted, the guy is 21 yrs old, has shown that he can change his game to suit situations and learns from his errors (Gats has come out and said exactly this). You only need to look at the last 2 games he's played since the Baa baas to see that this is true. Frankly the last half of your final sentence is just not true at all, he was close to MOTM against the Reds the other day which was the hardest game the Lions have had.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 13:36

Hogg better be careful. If he's even vaguely competent at 10 he'll end up playing there for Scotland!

Gatland obviously wants to give Farrell a rest, and wants to use Sexton for the game on Saturday against the Tahs. It was silly not to take an extra player in the form of a fly half (whoever that player should be), and as such he's stuck with a player who simply isn't a fly half playing in one of the pivotal positions. If it all goes horribly wrong and Gatland loses this game, it'll be a massive mistake. Still, given the nature of the opposition in this fixture, and the players Hogg has around him, the Lions ought to prevail unscathed. A calculated risk, albeit one that was unnecessary in my view.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 14:05

This isn't New Zealand or South Africa. Fact is some of the opposition the Lions face on this tour is very poor. If Gatland thinks he only wants two 10's for the tests, he can afford to play Hogg there against some very weak opposition, when the two 10's need rest. I can't see this team punishing us.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 14:19

I think giving Hogg a start is a good idea, no natural bench cover though is a huge risk.

Whether it will come back to bite him on the arris then we will just have to wait and see.

by Pyleboy65 Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 14:41

To be honest I think Gatland has made the right decision. A lot of people have been calling for Hook, Flood or Biggar to have toured. None of these are good enough to start in the tests, so he is giving his two tens plenty of game time against the better teams and is using Hogg in this game, which they will win. Makes sense to me.

With only nine games on tour it means that OF/JS will play a maximum of 4 games in 6 weeks - hardly going to burn them out.

by jimmyinthewell68 Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 14:50

isn't this the best team to test hog at ten so no surprise really . hog will show his magic hogwarts Very Happy

by beshocked Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 15:07

The risk of playing a player out of their normal position is that you might cripple their confidence.

If Hogg has a howler at 10 what's next?

belovedfrosties I agree. I pity any fly half who gets paired with Phillips. He is ponderous.

B.Youngs is in pretty good form and this season he's actually formed a workable partnership with Farrell.

I think both Sexton and Farrell will be hoping to be paired with B.Youngs.

by glamorganalun Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 15:18

The problem of picking a player at 10 (of all positions) for the first time at any level could screw up the test places for other players around him as well as his own ambitions. This is stupid in extreme and a waste as Hogg should get nowhere near the test 10 position. I can understand Hogg playing outside centre or wing at this level but not 10. Should have had enough cover at 10 before the tour, why have so many wings, is North going to play centre?

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 15:30

Flood and Biggar are good enough.
I accept that they aren't going to go down as legends of the game but maybe one of them should have toured so that for games like this they could have started and given the others a rest, plus if needed they could have played a part in the Tests.

Hook is too up and down and needs to play all the time imo to maintain his performance.

I'm sure Hogg will do OK but I just don't understand why Gatland didn't take another No10!

by Comfort Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 15:35

Lets be a bit sensible about this, follow these 3 steps.

Look at the back 5 of that Lions pack;
Look at the 9 and midfield around Hogg;
Look at the opposition;

Now lets suggest that you were flown in to play flyhalf, I'd be confident any of us on here could steer the Lions to victory, let alone one of the most exciting attacking prospects to come out of the NH in the last few years

Hug

by sirBiggles Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 15:48

Gatland is not making a mistake with the team selection for the game. He said that Hogg would be fly-half cover, so he must get game time at that position. Also, you cant play Farrel/Sexton every game.

Where the mistake has been made is only taking 2 dedicated fly-halfs in the first place. He would have been better taking one other who could cover other positions, such as James Hook. But that decision has been made, so he has to try Hogg out, and with injuries mounting all the time, he has to experiment with the players he has, in order to be able to cover key positions if required. Best do that now as next week would be a biggar (no apology for the pun Whistle

) problem if he trys the combos and stack up injuries in doing so.

As he has been forced to call up reinforcements for Bowe, then he missed an opportunity there. Instead of calling Zebo, as good a player as he is, I dont think cover on the wing is the problem. He should have then called up cover for the 10/15 slot, ie. Hook (or even Biggar or even Flood), as Halfpenny could cover Wing and 15 comfortably..... That is where the MISTAKE has been made.

by Comfort Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 16:07

Im with you Biggles! Youll have to excuse my exaggeration of the point I intended to make. Smile

Hogg will play flyhalf in an emergency, Farrell needs gametime to play his way out of this mini-slump hes been in of late, I'm assuming this was part of Gatlands thinking in only taking the 2 recognised flyhalves.

Should have been 3, but I dont think its a huge mistake taking the 2 hes got.

by BamBam Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 16:50

sickofwendy wrote:Don't think it will make much difference as they are playing farmers and tradesman.
The could play Stevens at 10 and win.
Blame the aussies lack of depth rather than gatland.

Nearly spat my afternoon coffee out at the thought of Matty Stevens playing fly half

by sirBiggles Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 16:55

sickofwendy wrote:Don't think it will make much difference as they are playing farmers and tradesman.
The could play Stevens at 10 and win.
Blame the aussies lack of depth rather than gatland.

Bit of a strange statement that, considering on anothe thread you are warning against taking the Aussies lightly, which by the way, I agree with.

by maestegmafia Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 18:42

belovedfrosties wrote:
Notch wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
123456789 wrote:What if Hogg is superb, scores a hat trick from 10, kicks all his goals and assists several tries? It's important to asses all possible options no matter how bizarre they are.

Should that happen, and i certainly do not discount it as he looks like he would be a great flyhalf, I think the press and fans will go nuts and demand Hogg to start the tests at ten...

To be honest, as is said above, Hook would have been a better option than one of the squads back three players, and we wouldn't worry so much about Sexton being injured if we had some decent back up for flyhalf.

I think you're being unfair on Farrell, who is a far better player than Hook, and Hook hasn't played well internationally for a number of years also Gatland clearly doesn't rate him and was never going to be called. After that who are the options? Biggar, Flood and both Jacksons are inferior players, Ford, Patchell. Burns, Heathcote and Madigan don't have enough international experience, Weir was injured (although, surprisingly, I got the impression from a comment the Lions twitter page made after his injury that he was very much in contention, though I may be wrong) and doesn't have much international experience.
Perhaps the Lions thought it would devalue the shirt to pick a third choice fly-half for the sake of it and we don't know the conversation between Hogg and Gatland, perhaps Hogg gave Gatland the impression he was very comfortable there. Why don't we reserve judgement on whether or not Gatland's made the right decisions regarding fly-halves until Tuesday and if Hogg has a howler I'll be the first to criticise Gatland and if he does well (which he will do in all probability, because he has all the right attributes and a good temperament) then maybe Gatland is the genius that many, not I, think he is

Hook is a better player than Farrell in my opinion, in fact I would say that all the flyhalf options you mentioned are better than Farrell. He has done nothing to impress at club, England or Lions level to show he deserves his inclusion, I have said that from the start and no one, least of all Farrell has given a good reason as to why he is number two ten on tour...

I would seriously value anyone pointing out why Farrell is the best option out of all qualified and available players? I would personally rather his club colleague, who I think even Sarries fans would agree, is a better player at ten.

I think this is mainly a dislike of Farrell rather than his playing ability, he isn't a creative ten but Sexton is and there's no point having two identical players, he can kick, pass and tackle.

He can pass- but is prone to errors in his passing game. He can kick- but only from the tee, his kicking game from hand has been inconsistent and ineffective on this tour. He can tackle well to be fair.

But can he think his way through a game? Can he make the right decisions at the right time, think clearly under pressure, identify what needs to be done and execute the appropriate skill? It really looks like he can't. He may the best of a bad bunch but he's shown some very poor form on this tour so far.

I'm not saying that Farrell is the best player ever, i was aware of his weaknesses before the tour and was skeptical about how well he would perform. The first game against the Baa baas seemed to confirm my worries but since that game he has been very good. In those 2 games he has made very few errors (his kicking game from hand hasn't been great that is true) but other than that he has looked every bit a Lions fly half.

His passing has been very good since the Hong kong game, where everyones passing was poor and the service he was getting from Phillips was terrible at times. I'm also not sure what to make of the stuff that i've highlighted, the guy is 21 yrs old, has shown that he can change his game to suit situations and learns from his errors (Gats has come out and said exactly this). You only need to look at the last 2 games he's played since the Baa baas to see that this is true. Frankly the last half of your final sentence is just not true at all, he was close to MOTM against the Reds the other day which was the hardest game the Lions have had.

I agree, and i said so on another thread, that his passing was good and he made some good breaks, other than that though I am not happy with him on tour and think we need another option out there ASAP.

by GloriousEmpire Mon 10 Jun 2013 - 18:57

Wilkinson and brown should've been in the squad as I said in another thread and was poh-poh'd

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