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5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 13 Aug 2013, 2:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

With England having won the series, I wonder what changes we will see to the teams.

England
The batting, barring Ian Bell, is misfiring. Too many times batsmen are getting in, but getting out for cameo scores. Prior is struggling a little with bat and gloves, but as the new boy and without a big innings, Jonny Bairstow is most at risk.
The wickets have been shared amongst the bowlers. Onions was unlucky to miss out at Chester-le-Street, but having now broken a finger is ruled out for two weeks. Monty's well publicised indiscretion will not endear him to the management and Steven Finn will probably be left to regain form and confidence with Middlesex. On his own ground, Chris Tremlett may get a run out, especially if they feel that Anderson or Broad need a rest.

all in all I suspect that changes are unlikely.


Australia
The good news is that they may have found an opening pair. The bad news is that the middle order is desperately fragile unless skipper Clarke scores runs. Khawaja and Smith are both batting at least two positions too high and unless he is able to bowl, Shane Watson looks a waste of a spot. Possible chances of recalls for Hughes or Cowan at 3 - and consideration has to be given to Faulkner lower down as an all-rounder.
Bowling has stood up well, but in another horses for course selection we may well see Starc replace Bird. Australia will be desperate for Harris to stay fit.




England have not played very well so far, especially the batters, yet are 3-0 up. Australia have shown they can compete but seem unable to win, even against a faltering team. If England can actually play well we could see a real thumping, but the money men at Ca will hope their team can sneak a win to create interest for the return series.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:18 am

There is that little bit of early life on this track, and both Anderson and Broad have produced a few good ones. But the 2 Australian openers have survived so far.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:18 am

There goes Warner!.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:19 am

And an early wicket for Jimmy Anderson, that should keep him in a good mental frame.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:19 am

I really dislike Warner, that is great stuff England!!!!!!!

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:20 am

One more to move up to second in the all-time England Test wickets list. Come on Jimmy, let's get that one soon 5th Test - Oval, Weds 21st August - Page 4 3559488474

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:20 am

Wicket for Anderson! clap 

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:20 am

Warner out. Aussies desperately drawing lots as to who bats at 3.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:20 am

And gone! England deserve that (though Broad probably deserved it more than Anderson). Good line, draws the drive, and a little tickle through to Prior. Aus 11/1

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:22 am

VTR wrote:Warner out. Aussies desperately drawing lots as to who bats at 3.
The way they've batted this series, you'd think they'd all have their pads on in anticipation of batting soon.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:22 am

Watson out at 3 then. What chance that he'll be out LBW, more or less than 95%?

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:23 am

True Azzy! Watson it is. Good man to send in early against the moving ball Shocked 

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:25 am

Duty281 wrote:Watson out at 3 then. What chance that he'll be out LBW, more or less than 95%?
Must be more than 95%. And at least 75% that he wastes a review on the decision

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:25 am

Anderson, LBW. I'd put my corned beef sandwiches on it.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:29 am

VTR wrote:Woakes is nothing like Freddie Flintoff. I'm thinking Dominic Cork myself, who was a very useful cricketer though some way short of world class
At the age of 24 Flintoff had played around 10 tests and averaged around 16 with the bat and about 66 with the ball. His first class record was nothing to shout about either. I'm not saying that Woakes will, or will not be as good as Flintoff, but let's give him a chance.

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:30 am

Cricinfo teaser:

"c Prior b Anderson is now the second most-often occurring dismissal for England in Tests, what is the first?"

Not sure myself. Think it might be c Atherton b Malcolm

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:33 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
VTR wrote:Woakes is nothing like Freddie Flintoff. I'm thinking Dominic Cork myself, who was a very useful cricketer though some way short of world class
At the age of 24 Flintoff had played around 10 tests and averaged around 16 with the bat and about 66 with the ball. His first class record was nothing to shout about either. I'm not saying that Woakes will, or will not be as good as Flintoff, but let's give him a chance.
You've misunderstood me, I rated Cork, a very useful player as I say. Flintoff though was absolute class for 2-3 years, not the kind of player you will see too often. But I would be happy with a Cork level all-rounder and I do think Woakes's bowling is similar to Cork but nothing like Flintoff's.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:34 am

VTR wrote:Woakes is nothing like Freddie Flintoff. I'm thinking Dominic Cork myself, who was a very useful cricketer though some way short of world class
Going to be controversial here, but I don't think Flintoff was a World Class All Rounder. He had brief periods of his career where he performed as World Class all rounder, but looking back on his career overall when it comes to the All Rounder stakes he does not sit with the greats.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:34 am

VTR wrote:Cricinfo teaser:

"c Prior b Anderson is now the second most-often occurring dismissal for England in Tests, what is the first?"

Not sure myself. Think it might be c Atherton b Malcolm
Wouldn't have thought so. It's someone who took 60 catches off the same bowler, so thinking Taylor, Knott, maybe Evans, and a bowler who's taken a fair few as well: Botham, Trueman?

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:35 am

VTR wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
VTR wrote:Woakes is nothing like Freddie Flintoff. I'm thinking Dominic Cork myself, who was a very useful cricketer though some way short of world class
At the age of 24 Flintoff had played around 10 tests and averaged around 16 with the bat and about 66 with the ball. His first class record was nothing to shout about either. I'm not saying that Woakes will, or will not be as good as Flintoff, but let's give him a chance.
You've misunderstood me, I rated Cork, a very useful player as I say. Flintoff though was absolute class for 2-3 years, not the kind of player you will see too often. But I would be happy with a Cork level all-rounder and I do think Woakes's bowling is similar to Cork but nothing like Flintoff's.
Fair enough, though I do think Woakes is a bit better than Cork, especially as a batsman.

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:36 am

Of course it isn't anything to do with Big Dev!

I'm thinking it will be something like b Laker or lbw Botham - something that does not involve any other player

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Post by GSC Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:38 am

Seems to me they decided on Kerrigan so then they needed a 3rd seamer. Not sure about Woakes at this level tbh, seems to be partly based on his batting like Bresnan
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Post by GSC Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:40 am

I mean I you pick Finn or Tremlett, Prior bats 6, Broad 7, Swann 8. Not sure if Kerrigan can hold a bat
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:42 am

VTR wrote:Of course it isn't anything to do with Big Dev!

I'm thinking it will be something like b Laker or lbw Botham - something that does not involve any other player
nah Bumble on sky said it was a bowler/fielder combo.

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:43 am

GSC wrote:I mean I you pick Finn or Tremlett, Prior bats 6, Broad 7, Swann 8. Not sure if Kerrigan can hold a bat
Kerrigan averages 9 in FC cricket. So pretty terrible with bat in hand

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Post by VTR Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:44 am

c Taylor b Botham it is!

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Post by GSC Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:44 am

So yeah. Seems the decision was made to try Kerrigan and then everything else was fit around that
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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:45 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
VTR wrote:Woakes is nothing like Freddie Flintoff. I'm thinking Dominic Cork myself, who was a very useful cricketer though some way short of world class
Going to be controversial here, but I don't think Flintoff was a World Class All Rounder.  He had brief periods of his career where he performed as World Class all rounder, but looking back on his career overall when it comes to the All Rounder stakes he does not sit with the greats.
Think there is a difference between a great and a world class player. The likes of Tendulkar, Lara are great batsmen. But there are others who have performed very very creditably at international level without quite being a great. Fredye Flintoff, strictly looked at from the point of view of his even tual record is a world class all-rounder, but not quite a great one. But as we all know, there was a lot to Fredye than just his abilities with bat or ball. What a lift he provided to the entire match scenario!, to his teammates, to the spectators. Good player, great character.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:47 am

GSC wrote:So yeah. Seems the decision was made to try Kerrigan and then everything else was fit around that
Which I think is fair enough. Let's see what Kerrigan is like in a big Test Match. Obviously should he fail, its hardly the end for him. But with Monty's issues and Swann much nearer the end of his career than at that the start. Well worth keeping an eye on the future.

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Post by GSC Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:48 am

Freddie was a great talisman, like Broad he had a knack of producing something when England needed it. Not sure he was a great player though
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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:51 am

Graeme Swann getting an early bowl.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:51 am

here's Swann, on to bowl at Rogers who he's dismissed on 5 of the last 6 occasions. Good move this.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:52 am

Some turn for Swanny too.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:52 am

Flintoff was probably world-class between late 2003-2005, but he was distinctly average and inconsistent before and after those periods. Of course, injury didn't help.

Between the 2003 series where England toured Sri Lanka, and the super series in 2005, a total of 8 series, he didn't average above 30 with the ball in a single one of them. He did reasonably well with the bat in the same time-frame, with 12 50s and 3 tons. Thank you Cricinfo.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:53 am

That piece on the BBC shows what nonsense statistics can show you:

BBC Sport wrote:Chris Woakes is just the fourth player to make a Test debut having scored 3000 runs and taken 200 wickets in first-class cricket with a batting average that is 12 or more higher than his bowling average. Woakes averages 37.67 with the bat and 25.50 with the ball (difference 12.17). The others are:

WG Grace (Eng) 20748 runs @ 49.51 and 1445 wickets @ 14.38 (difference 35.13)

Vijay Hazare (Ind) 7237 runs @ 66.39 and 285 wickets @ 22.38 (difference 44.01)

Roy Kilner (Eng) 10204 runs @ 30.04 and 518 wickets @ 16.12 (difference 13.92)

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:53 am

Some turn for Swann early on, especially surprising since this is the 1st hour. Maybe we'll see Kerrigan sooner than we think?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:54 am

yup, 2003-2005 Flintoff was world class, no doubt about that. had he kept up that level for his whole career he'd have gone down as one of the greats.

anyway, here's Woakes, wonder if Aus will try to target him e bit...

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:55 am

Chris Woakes with his first over in test cricket.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:56 am

Kerrigan should get given an over or two in this first session (unless England are running through them) just to make him feel part of the team.

Decent start this by Woakes though.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:58 am

good start from Woakes, right on the money with his first deliveries. Decent pace too, mid-80's. Rather spoils it with a dragged down long-hop off the last ball which is smashed for four, shame that.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 11:59 am

Fredye Flintoff's batting declined after 2006, after the India series where he was England's most consistent batsman, but he was superb with the ball since he established himself as a serious bowler in the India series in 2001.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:01 pm

And if we stick to the under-30 bowling average to class someone as world class, then James Anderson won't quite make it. Stats don't tell the entire story, particularly with a player like Andrew Flintoff.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:10 pm

Swann really tying Rogers down here. If Woakes can do the same to Watson at the other it would be good signs for England. Rogers needs to think about finding a way to score...

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:10 pm

msp83 wrote:And if we stick to the under-30 bowling average to class someone as world class, then James Anderson won't quite make it. Stats don't tell the entire story, particularly with a player like Andrew Flintoff.
James Anderson has averaged under 30 for every year since 2010, he's certainly been world-class since then.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:11 pm

Geoffrey Boycott: 'Chris Woakes's bowling wouldn't trouble my mum'.

Good to see Boycs is giving him a fair chance.

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Post by Guest Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:13 pm

As much as I respect Boycott, he does come out with the most pathetic drivel at times. Richie Benaud would never say something like that.

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Post by msp83 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:14 pm

The 50 up for Australia. Watson looking to take the bowling on a bit. Rogers staying largely solid.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:14 pm

Hmm, Watson takes Woakes for three boundaries in the over. Woakes going at 6 an over at the moment. Not good...

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Post by Duty281 Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:15 pm

Geoffrey Boycott, Boxing Day 2010:

"I can't see any way how England can win this Test from what I've seen so far. A draw would do. If you were an opener, you'd be queueing up to bat on this compared to Perth."

The day ended with Australia 98 all out, and England 157/0! Laugh 

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Post by alfie Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:17 pm

Decent start from Woakes. Just a couple of loose ones , and his pace is OK , 84-86.

Would like to see him get a wicket early.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 21 Aug 2013, 12:24 pm

Duty281 wrote:
teassoc wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Hmm...Eng playing 5 bowlers...2 spinners...lost the toss....aus will bat first.

given the pitches in England......Toss makes a lot of diffrence
It does seem the toss is very important.  If I'm not mistaken England won all the tests at which they got the toss right and were only saved by rain in the one where they didn't.  So on that basis Australia to win.  
If memory serves correctly, the toss didn't matter too much in India.
The genius of KP was so big in Mumbai that it overrode the toss advantage
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