Eng v Aus match thread + build up

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

First topic message reminder :

Chance to chat about the game.
I think it will be a real cracker with England to take it by around 8 points or more.
I know every game is important but the management must have this penciled in as a must win because they can win it if they play it right.

[TJ]

Lawes - he was running the lineout and they missed 3?  4?  I didn't see him using his speed and athleticism to win ball either or make ground with ball in hand.  Mind you no penalties - he was just a bit anonymous and I had hopes for him as a player to take lock play to the next level.

I wouldn't drop either. Nowt much wrong just didn't claim their place in a world 15

[Sgt_Pooly]

"I wouldn't drop either. Nowt much wrong just didn't claim their place in a world 15"

You don't want much from 1 game!

[TJ]

Now thats interesting - I have looked at the espn stats for the first time - much more even game than I thought

Farrell kick / pass / run 12/17/7 - now thats poor especially as they had a lot more bal than that. Too much psiseession did not go thru him

I really had hopes for Lawes in particular to be a great - and he has looked good in the club game this year. his stats are mediocre at best ands he was a bit anonymous. Still plenty of time for him

[Cumbrian]

Was he? I might me wrong, but it looked like Wood was running the line-out to me and I'd place more blame with Youngs. How many line outs did we lose when Hartley came on? I know it's a cliché, but I believe if a lock is doing his job properly you may not necessarily notice it.

Goal-kicking aside, I thought Farrell pulled our arses out of the fire tonight.

[TJ]

I read Lawes would be running the lineout.

if a lock is doing his job properly you may not necessarily notice

maybe but I was hoping for more

[Sgt_Pooly]

I thought Lawes was excellent today

[Cumbrian]

I read Lawes would be running the lineout.

if a lock is doing his job properly you may not necessarily notice

maybe but I was hoping for more

Okay fair enough, but what did Launchbury do to avoid similar criticism?

[Cumbrian]

I thought Lawes was excellent today

Me too.

[Cumbrian]

I might delve back into this Poopie and see if this thread could give me a laugh or two. I've only got about half an hour though.

[TJ]

On Lawes - I was hoping for more - maybe it will come.  I mean no criticism just I wanted him to take the game by the scruff of the neck and show real world class.  Maybe it will come.  Only disappointed because i want / hope he can be a lock plus a bit more.   I want to see him stealing lineout ball, I want to see him winning turnovers, i want to see him making some runs ball in hand. launchbury I don't have the same expectations.

[mystiroakey]

During the 80 mins England had slightly more possession and territory, they run more metres and won all there scrums , OZ lost 2.

the two most promising stats was that England beat 20 defenders to Oz only beat 11. England's second half(money half) possession and territory was a lot better than Oz's.

What was even more promising was that when Young's came on we looked a much better unit- so he needs to start next game and that Brown at 15 was wholeheartedly justified! Having a nailed on 15 is exactly what all Teams need..

The negatives of which there were many is also a positive because we can sort them out before the next game but we have still won the game anyway!



England had better stats and the better game- and when you do that you usually win!!

[fa0019]

I don't think lawes was to blame for the majority of the lineouts.... He cannot be blamed for mis-throws either wide or high. When Hartley came back on it helped a lot. Personally I blame Lancaster for this.... If you have an inexperienced club lineout captain in the side and you have a choice of his regular club hooker or a less familiar one then you use his more familiar player. It's that simple, especially given Hartley is the premier hooker in England.

Hartley has to start hereforth. Same with Ben youngs.... He adds a confidence to the backline and a genuine threat at all times. You just don't get that with Dickson.

Twelvetrees was poor but he'll have more opportunities and needs to find some intensity. England lacked a little get up and go, it looked like they hadn't trained together for a while, come the AB match though they should be firing.

My only concern for the centre pairing is against NZ their inexperience will be blown to pieces.... It's an obvious point of attack for all Sid facing England. I don't think they can go with that pairing and win... What options they have I'm not so sure but they need some experience in there.

England played badly, yet still beat Australia who are no bad side, demoralised yes, poor, no. That's a good sign for England. They looked rusty but that would be expected for the first game of the season. Next pick Hartley, Ben youngs and perhaps experiment with a flood twelvetrees and Farrell 10 12 & 13 and I think they could push the ABs all the way.

[TJ]

Clean breaks?

however only one stat goes in the history books

20 / 13

[yappysnap]

Lawes didn't break anyone which is what I assume some wanted, he was busy though, a lot more physical then most and one of the few Eng forwards to knock the Oz players backwards in the tackle. I'm happy with him and Launchberry continuing.

As said before only changes should be at 2 and 9. I think 36 will have a much better display after today and bank in him coming good.

[mystiroakey]

Australia were in all honesty a one man team.. That Folau is something else.. And in fairness could possibly beat anyone almost on his own!

[Cumbrian]

Here are my favourite’s.  You’ve done yourselves credit guys.

Insult to injury - mike brown named man of the match for having his feet in touch without being seen by the officials.

The begin of the rewriting of history by the poms.

Does this mean that England should have had more Lions now?

Think NZ will have to get the ebola virus for England to come close this November.

Have Ireland actually ever even beaten the All Blacks?

Here they go. England's 16th and 17th men...

[TJ]

If your halfbacks don't fire yo can hardly judge the centres and wings as attackers. Is that the end for Farell? subs bench as a closer?

[GloriousEmpire]

You play to the ref, anybody who has played the game knows this surely?

Refs make mistakes, we made the most out of the one today.

From the ball in touch (it was in touch from Brown), Aus fumbled their lineout and then Genia botched the box kick. They had ample opportunity to clear their lines.

Give me a break. There's playing the ref and then there's the ref playing one team out of the game by ignoring the touch line, knock ons, shoulder charges, refereeing one scrum only, allowing a free for all at the ruck, ignoring obstruction, and any other host of points that could be mentioned. One if the worst homer performances by a referee in the history of the game.

England were handed victory on a plate, and yet conspired to only just scrape it through their lack of basic skills.

[yappysnap]

I don't think Farrell was anywhere near as poor as some seem to suggest. He was not on a par with kiwi 10s but still out played Cooper, showed real class to come back from a faltering start and take control of the game and then scored a belter of a try which if any one else nailed would have everyone gushing over it.

He is fine at the moment and better then most nations 10's

[mystiroakey]

If your halfbacks don't fire yo can hardly judge the centres and wings as attackers.  Is that the end for Farell?  subs bench as a closer?

he was fine once youngs got on..

Farrell starts next game for me

[Exiledinborders]

You play to the ref, anybody who has played the game knows this surely?

Refs make mistakes, we made the most out of the one today.

From the ball in touch (it was in touch from Brown), Aus fumbled their lineout and then Genia botched the box kick. They had ample opportunity to clear their lines.

Give me a break. There's playing the ref and then there's the ref playing one team out of the game by ignoring the touch line, knock ons, shoulder charges, refereeing one scrum only, allowing a free for all at the ruck, ignoring obstruction, and any other host of points that could be mentioned. One if the worst homer performances by a referee in the history of the game.

England were handed victory on a plate, and yet conspired to only just scrape it through their lack of basic skills.

When you say a free for all at the ruck I think you mean allowing a fair competition at the ruck. What a pleasant change that was from the Chris Pollock style of refereeing where no contest is allowed. If you want league then watch league!

[yappysnap]

You play to the ref, anybody who has played the game knows this surely?

Refs make mistakes, we made the most out of the one today.

From the ball in touch (it was in touch from Brown), Aus fumbled their lineout and then Genia botched the box kick. They had ample opportunity to clear their lines.

Give me a break. There's playing the ref and then there's the ref playing one team out of the game by ignoring the touch line, knock ons, shoulder charges, refereeing one scrum only, allowing a free for all at the ruck, ignoring obstruction, and any other host of points that could be mentioned. One if the worst homer performances by a referee in the history of the game.

England were handed victory on a plate, and yet conspired to only just scrape it through their lack of basic skills.

And the real GE surfaces. Utterly classless and just looking to wind people up.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Totally disagree but there's no surprise there.

There was only one scrum in the game. We completely dominated this area and this shows how weak NZ are at the minute that they couldn't.

Back play will come, this is the first game of the AI remember. Aus didn't look too clever themselves yet they took NZ apart at times in the final 4N game.

[TJ]

Ruck was fine to me - maybe a bit more relaxed than some but consistent reffing and nothing blatant allowed to go on

[TJ]

If your halfbacks don't fire yo can hardly judge the centres and wings as attackers.  Is that the end for Farell?  subs bench as a closer?

he was fine once youngs got on..

Farrell starts next game for me

No way - England have some fine 3/4s  You need a 10 who can release them.  Farell sits too deep and is too slow (especially between the ears) and too risk averse.  Not a bad player but wit the backs england have you need more than him. If cooper was english maybe he wouldn't get a game - but cooper would get more out of the english backs

[fa0019]

It's not the refs job to monitor touch, it's the assistant. His call.

It's great having a slow mo reply *10 but the assistants and the ref only have 1 shot at it... In real time and he was 15m away.

Tell me this though... You ever seen so many penalties given against a scrum without a yellow? The ref was very lenient to AUS. They were being smashed upfront yet they didn't get a card. They constantly infringed.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You play to the ref, anybody who has played the game knows this surely?

Refs make mistakes, we made the most out of the one today.

From the ball in touch (it was in touch from Brown), Aus fumbled their lineout and then Genia botched the box kick. They had ample opportunity to clear their lines.

Give me a break. There's playing the ref and then there's the ref playing one team out of the game by ignoring the touch line, knock ons, shoulder charges, refereeing one scrum only, allowing a free for all at the ruck, ignoring obstruction, and any other host of points that could be mentioned. One if the worst homer performances by a referee in the history of the game.

England were handed victory on a plate, and yet conspired to only just scrape it through their lack of basic skills.

And the real GE surfaces. Utterly classless and just looking to wind people up.

Interesting that he's made no comments on the NZ-Japan thread yet seems to be ever present on England's.

Did you see Japan dominating NZ's scrum GE? Or did you miss the game?

[mystiroakey]

He had a bad first half TJ. He can play rugby like the best of them . We cant just base his performance on one half of rugby..

[fa0019]

I think twelvetrees needs to take more responsibility though... If he's meant to be a genuine second five right then he should be sharing responsibilities, acting as a 2nd option receiver for the scrumhalf and helping to run the backline.... That is what will give England the key to breaking down defences and scoring more tries.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Good result for England first up as Australia was on an upward trend despite losing in Dunedin. Cooper and Folau are the best examples of that rise in confidence. England had little preparation, played unconvincingly for large parts of the game and still came away with the right result. There's certainly things to be worried about but one cannot dismiss the fact they found a way to win despite not being too convincing.

I see some complaining on this thread about allegations of the ref helping them are not afraid to voice their opinion on other threads about this very thing. I think anyone wishing to put the blame on the ref is invariably unwilling to look at their or another team's own failings. Both teams had the opportunities to take this game and a charge down is a fortuitous way to score but is an apt example of you make your own luck. England will not view that performance with any great amount of affection much like NZ will about their performance earlier in the day. England probably played better last year and got the opposite result. They eliminated their mistakes and capitalised on their opponents'. Sometimes that is enough and you don't have to create your own chances. Against SA and NZ with the form they're in this year, today's performance won't be enough. But at least they go into the match against SA with the belief that they can claim scalps from the SH and that fact will help lift their performance next week. But they'll know they have to raise their game a lot.

[mystiroakey]

Kia we are not playing SA!

[TJ]

He had a bad first half TJ. He can play rugby like the best of them . We cant just base his performance on one half of rugby..

Farrell - I am not. I have watched him play a lot He was better than last year when he lost the plot and lost his temper. I just think thats the best we will see from him. He is a limited player and can't do the extra bit that separates the journey men from the Ok dudes. compare Coopers behind the back pass when he was about to be nailed by aston. Farrell would have been caught in possession then. He is competent but lacks the spark of the best. I prefer Flood

[TJ]

I think twelvetrees needs to take more responsibility though... If he's meant to be a genuine second five right then he should be sharing responsibilities, acting as a 2nd option receiver for the scrumhalf and helping to run the backline.... That is what will give England the key to breaking down defences and scoring more tries.

You need someone more mercurial than Farell.

[Hood83]

I don't think lawes was to blame for the majority of the lineouts.... He cannot be blamed for mis-throws either wide or high. When Hartley came back on it helped a lot. Personally I blame Lancaster for this.... If you have an inexperienced club lineout captain in the side and you have a choice of his regular club hooker or a less familiar one then you use his more familiar player. It's that simple, especially given Hartley is the premier hooker in England.

Hartley has to start hereforth. Same with Ben youngs.... He adds a confidence to the backline and a genuine threat at all times. You just don't get that with Dickson.

Twelvetrees was poor but he'll have more opportunities and needs to find some intensity. England lacked a little get up and go, it looked like they hadn't trained together for a while, come the AB match though they should be firing.

My only concern for the centre pairing is against NZ their inexperience will be blown to pieces.... It's an obvious point of attack for all Sid facing England. I don't think they can go with that pairing and win... What options they have I'm not so sure but they need some experience in there.

England played badly, yet still beat Australia who are no bad side, demoralised yes, poor, no. That's a good sign for England. They looked rusty but that would be expected for the first game of the season. Next pick Hartley, Ben youngs and perhaps experiment with a flood twelvetrees and Farrell 10 12 & 13 and I think they could push the ABs all the way.

I'll hold my hands up and say I thought we'd lose this one, but I stand by my criticisms of certain picks and combinations, many of which you've noted here fa.

9. Dickson is not international class. He offers no running threat alongside Farrell.
10. Farrell - His kicking and defence are excellent, when the former deserts him, he's bog standard average. Flood is a better all-round player, always was, and I was amazed how quick Lancaster was to drop him. England has to recognise we can't always kick our way to victory and if Burns and Flood are kicking alright, they are better players.
12. Twelvetrees was awful today. I think he could be v useful but agree that the balance is all wrong with Tomkins.
13. Tomkins - Sorry, no.

I also don't think Ashton warrants a place.

That core of players just isn't creative enough to be in the same team.

[yappysnap]

Farrell and 36 will play a lot better with Youngs at 9, he gives them more space and time on the ball and keeps the defence honest by being an actual threat himself.

[mystiroakey]

There is something strange about flood- I cant put my finger on it- but when ever he plays we lose half the time even though he seems to allways play ok!! (51% win record)

compare that to flood which sits at a 62% win rate

[Duty281]

If England complain about a referee - it's "whinging poms" and "poor referee management".

If England get the rub of a green with a referee - it's "bias" and an "IRB conspiracy".

I love this forum when England win. What's it now? 8 wins out of the last 9 - with France, Ireland, Australia, and New Zealand put to the English sword.

[Cyril]

Well, that was pretty disjointed. Not a great performance by any means but a good win over the Aussies all the same.

Hopefully a real improvement next week once the rust has been shaken off.

I've not read up this thread but I imagine GE will have posted that England were lucky/cheated or had biased officials handing them the match.

Plus I bet he's not admitted he was wrong about Mike Brown.

Close?

[GloriousEmpire]

Put to clancey's sword did you say?

You're seriously not trying to deny the insane rulings today? Wow. Blinker alert!

Mike brown was ordinary. He did one good thing which turned out that he didn't actually do.

[mystiroakey]

Manu tuilagi has (I think) Englands best win rate (over 15 games played and 66%)

We do allways seem to miss him and that showed today

[TJ]

Farrell and 36 will play a lot better with Youngs at 9, he gives them more space and time on the ball and keeps the defence honest by being an actual threat himself.

I'll let that theory be proven. Personally I doubt it but hopefully we will see. Youngs / Farrell has been tried before has it not? and all the impetus still stops when Farrell gets the ball?

[yappysnap]

Tomkins looks like a place filler for Manu right now. But honestly that Oz 13 would have eaten JJ alive. That only leaves Trinder who unfortunately doesnt play for Sarries and isn't 6'5.

Hopefully Tomkins will come good for us, especially if the guys in front of him can give him some actual decent ball to use.

[TJ]

Put to clancey's sword did you say?

You're seriously not trying to deny the insane rulings today? Wow. Blinker alert!

Mike brown was ordinary. He did one good thing which turned out that he didn't actually do.

GE - give it a break.  the refs made mistakes and they favoured England. thats all.

Brown was well more than ordinary for England - he tried high risk plays a few times and made a bunch of yards.

[GloriousEmpire]

But yknow, keep your heads in the sand and pray for equally biased refereeing in 2015. On the strength of that keystone cop display from
The over hyped Backline you'll seriously need it. I don't see you getting out if a Wales/Australia pool if the playing field is level.

[TJ]

But yknow, keep your heads in the sand and pray for equally biased refereeing in 2015. On the strength of that keystone cop display from
The over hyped Backline you'll seriously need it. I don't see you getting out if a Wales/Australia pool if the playing field is level.

Now that I would agree with. Nothing much to worry anyone there. I was expecting more

[yappysnap]

Farrell and 36 will play a lot better with Youngs at 9, he gives them more space and time on the ball and keeps the defence honest by being an actual threat himself.

I'll let that theory be proven.  Personally I doubt it but hopefully we will see.  Youngs / Farrell has been tried before has it not?  and all the impetus still stops when Farrell gets the ball?

It's difficult to tell as it's a 23 man game. Hopefully we'll see more next week.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Ignore GE.

He pretends he's a NZ fan to take the high ground.

He's only on here to wind up.

[Cyril]

GE is crying into his milk again.

He's already had one of his threads locked. I think he'll be needing another new account soon

[mystiroakey]

He makes me angry.

Best thing to do is ignore him. I haven't for weeks, If no one replys he will just go

[tigerleghorn]

But yknow, keep your heads in the sand and pray for equally biased refereeing in 2015. On the strength of that keystone cop display from
The over hyped Backline you'll seriously need it. I don't see you getting out if a Wales/Australia pool if the playing field is level.

  same old same old. You have nothing to say beyond your childish anti - English prejudice.

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