Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread V - The Fun Continues

[IanBru]

First topic message reminder :

Banter through the ages:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv

Well friends, the pre-season has come and gone, now things get real.

A. Edinburgh Rugby


1. Pre-Season

Edinburgh 10-11 Leicester Tigers
Edinburgh 21-15 Newcastle Falcons

2. Results
Munster 13-14 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 13-14 Connacht
Ospreys 62-13 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 20-20 Scarlets
Ulster 30-0 Edinburgh
Edinburgh 24-10 Newport Gwent Dragons
Bordeaux-Bègles 13-15 Edinburgh

3. Upcoming Fixtures

Friday 24 Oct 2014 - 19:45 (TBC)
Lyon   (H)   -   European Rugby Challenge Cup

B. Glasgow Warriors


1. Pre-Season Results
Glasgow Warriors 23-24 Harlequins
London Scottish 19-38 Glasgow Warriors

2. Results
Glasgow Warriors 22-20 Leinster
Cardiff Blues 12-33 Glasgow Warriors
Newport Gwent Dragons 13-33 Glasgow Warriors
Glasgow Warriors 39 - 21 Connacht
Benetton Treviso 23-40 Glasgow Warriors
Ulster 29-9 Glasgow Warriors


3. Upcoming Fixtures

Sat 18 Oct 2014 - 15:15 (Live on BT Sport 2)
Bath   (H)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Sat 25 Oct 2014 - 18:15 (Live on Sky Sports)
Montpellier Herault   (A)   -   European Rugby Champions Cup

Any and all discussion of things rugby-related is welcome. Restaurant recommendations are openly sought. Introductions to eligible young people would be fantastic. Bullying, jingoism, and wang-measuring is not on.

We need to move forwards not backwards, upwards not forwards, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Good to see Edinburgh A got a win against Sale Jets on Sunday.

Most importantly, Ben Atiga is back fit!!!

Well I say fit...

Anyone know who Richard Stewart is on the wing? Seems to be from South Africa but not been aware of him playing for any prem 1 club so must be on trial?

A South African at Edinburgh?

[RDW]

https://www.606v2.com/t55829-gpro-12-ulster-v-edinbrugh-rugby#2791371

[Majestic83]

Good to see Edinburgh A got a win against Sale Jets on Sunday.

Most importantly, Ben Atiga is back fit!!!

Well I say fit...

Anyone know who Richard Stewart is on the wing? Seems to be from South Africa but not been aware of him playing for any prem 1 club so must be on trial?

A South African at Edinburgh?

Also seems that the sub scrum half Charlie Purdon is another South African player on trial.
Seems Edinburgh have just stopped looking at Scottish talent!

[EWT Spoons]

For the sake of Edinburgh rugby and also Scottish rugby, what's everyone’s thoughts on getting rid of Solomon?  Too early or has he had enough time?

I'm torn on this, hence the question.  We've brought in a load of foreign players with the view to getting a winning team and then easing young players into the side, however, the foreign players we’ve brought in have largely been poor and the Scottish youngsters seem to be getting displaced for South African players.

Add to this we’ve also offloaded two quality props in Cross and Allan.

Should we start looking to cut our losses or hang in there, if the former, should we look to see if Lineen would fancy taking charge?  Sure his record at Glasgow was ok, nothing special, but he did bring through a lot of the Scottish players that are mainstays (Toonie rotation aside) of the Glasgow team.

I’ve seen no improvement under the current management despite wholesale changes to the squad.  Something is clearly wrong at Edinburgh and I wonder if Lineen is the man to help make those changes.

Thoughts?


Also as an aside, does anyone else get directed to a website talking about setting up a forum when clicking on this site?

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm sceptical about Solomons now. He's made some poor judgement calls on players and seems to have an awful lot of time for Coman and Strauss, two players that have yet to surpass mediocrity on their best days (and neither of whom qualify to play for Scotland - or would get close to the squad if they did). He has effectively built the leadership group around those two players.

Regarding players out the decisions to axe Cross, Allan, Rennie and NDL were also examples of poor judgement, insomuch as none of these SQ players has been adequately replaced, and all (in my view) would make the Edinburgh starting XV this season and improve it were they retained. Also, why retain Ben Atiga? Why God, why!?

Still, I think Bresler will come good and Burleigh could be a positive addition. I also like the idea of Tonks getting a crack at 10 and when Denton and Scott return we'll look a lot stronger in the back row and centres. Visser remains a quality try scorer. Problem is for all the positives I'm not convinced that the style of rugby being coached will maximise the talent we have, and the much vaunted pre-season conditioning programme appears not to have made a huge difference.

He will quite rightly get until the end of the season, but if he has not improved upon both the results and the league placing from the season prior, then he should certainly be moved on. At that point I would want the SRU to look seriously closely at the coaches within Scotland as a replacement, and enforce a much much stricter set of criteria to be applied before any further NSQ players can be signed.

[tigertattie]

Also as an aside, does anyone else get directed to a website talking about setting up a forum when clicking on this site?

Yeah, I've been getting it! My post does not save and I have to re-type what I've said. And given that 50%-80% of what I type on here is utter mince, it's annoying having to enter it twice!

I've also noticed that the site is running hellishly slow these days!

If I was paying for this service, I'd complain!

Instead, I'll just hoy some foosty tatties at RDW and George Carlin

[RDW]

Spoons - I think there's some technical issues with the site today.  Forumotion are the people that we run this site off (hence why we have rules like no swearing and not putting streaming links up - that's their rules).

To your question in hand, I definitely think 4 games is too soon to be thinking about this. Edinburgh desperately need stability, and I don't think sacking the coach is what we need.  I suppose I could break it down into the following:

Positives

- One off performances

Some of our good performances under Solomons are the best we've seen since our HK run.  I'm thinking Munster at the start of the season, Munster and Gloucester in the HK, and even the first 1872 leg (up until the last 20 minutes).  We were ruthless in defence and played some great rugby.  To me this shows we do have decent players, and the squad is capable of these kind of performances.

- Cornell Du Preez.

Solomons will have been a big part in him coming over here, and he has been our best signing since Blackadder IMO.

- Philosophy.

I like parts of his philosophy - improving Edinburgh's physicality and ruthlessness (which has always been poor), tightening up the defence, and even gradually bringing young players into a settled and experienced squad. The problem is, his philosophy is just not being implemented very well just now - more of that later.

Concerns

- Consistency

There is none.  We have had some good one off performances, but some hellishly poor ones too.

- Recruitment

Du Preez and Nel are definitely worth their places - and I am hoping Bresler will come good too - but it is probably fair to say the other foreign imports are fairly average standard.  I appreciate we are Edinburgh and not Toulon - we won't have a massive budget and we're hardly the most attractive club to come too - but a lot of these signings seem to be fairly desperate.  Berghan for Cross? Blaauw for Allan? Strauss for De Luca? There really is just no comparison.

- Selections

The journeman foreigners are just not producing, yet he keeps picking them. Strauss is the very obvious example.

- Philosophy

I said it's not being implemented well. There are too many NSQ players playing poorly to justify his stance that they will improve younger SQ players. Also, his claims of improving our physicality just aren't working - we started off well in pre-season and against Munster, and have been woefully short in the last few games.  I don't think we look and fitter or stronger than previous years.

- Tactics

The old Edinburgh way was just simply to score more points than your opposition.  Now it is all about damage limitation, and stifling natural attacking talents (Sam H-C).  If we were winning regularly then this wouldn't be such a big deal, but we really are God awful to watch just now. The tactic seems to be kick it away if we are in our own half, if not then just keep running into the opposition until something happens.  Things like creativity in the backs and utilising our most potent weapon - Visser - are just not considered.  I can maybe understand this last season when it very much was a case of damage limitation, but what have they been doing all summer??


Bit of a rant and apologies for the word count.  Overall I think he needs the season. Come February/March time if we're still talking about the same things and propping up the lower half of the table, I think his position will be untenable and we need to accept that things just haven't worked with him and we need to make a change.

[JonnyEdinburgh]

Overall I think he needs the season. Come February/March time if we're still talking about the same things and propping up the lower half of the table, I think his position will be untenable and we need to accept that things just haven't worked with him and we need to make a change.

Agree here 100%.
He still has time to show us the green shoots of his vision.
I think there should be an openness of communication coming down from the top to Solomans here too. He should know (should have known from day 1) the time-frame he has and when he walks into that meeting towards the end of the season he should be willing to take it on the chin if he hasn't met targets. At that point if the decision is for him to see out the season then leave, the powers that be should be targetting to have a new man in place, contracted, in Edinburgh, with his shoes freshly polished, lunch box in hand and hair combed ready to start the day after this season ends - not the day before the next one starts!!

[EWT Spoons]

Whilst I’m not saying he should definitely go, I would point out that he did have all of last season as well, so it’s not like I’m saying judge him on 4 games, I’m saying we were terrible last season under his leadership, he’s now had a full pre-season as well which he said would make the world of difference and so far we seem to be just as bad.

I’m not sure how long we can justify saying give him more time.

Now yes he might not have had ‘his’ players, but only a couple of the players he’s brought in look better than what we had before, and he’s certainly let a lot of better players go, as RDW points out.

So do we give him another season and hope that the full season he’s already had, this  pre-season and season will make the difference, or do we cut our losses and bring in someone who can organise and motivate the team.  Because watching the players, they look bereft of confidence and the game plan so far hasn’t been working.  It doesn’t even seem a complicated system, so I would have hoped the players would be capable of playing it by now.

If things haven’t improved by Christmas (at the latest), then I think he needs to be replaced.

[RDW]

The problem with replacing mid-season is who do you replace with? ALl other coaches are contracted to other teams.

I have to say though, I do like Solomons personally. He obviously cares, and by all accounts no one works harder at Edinburgh - he's the first in in the morning and the last out. I genuinely believe he thinks this is the best thing for Edinburgh, and I'm sure he's hurting as much as anyone that things aren't going well.

However, there are worrying similarities with Matt Williams here (dare I say it!).  Williams came in bemoaning the players at his disposal - poor skills, poor fitness, years behind other professional teams.  He said he knew how to fix them and put his head above the parapet. As a result, the players grew sick and tired of being told they are rubbish, had enough of the complicated and negative tactics he made them do, and took things into their own hands.  As a result, he was given the boot.

Then comes along Hadden who gave the players confidence, let them express themselves and play with a smile on their faces again.

I wouldn't be surprised if come they end of the season this is what happens with Edinburgh.

[George Carlin]

In aggregate, Pappy has not even had one full season yet and so it would be harsh in the extreme to show him to the bus queue until the end of this season. Bear in mind too this is the year before a RWC so it would have been practically impossible to bring in players of better quality as they will all be internationalists happy with the shop window that they are currently in.

That said, poor selection is poor selection if the players really aren't delivering.

[RDW]

Looking at our fixtures leading up to Christmas:

Ulster A
Dragons H
Bordeaux-Begles A
Lyon H
Leinster A
Blues H
Zebre A
London Welsh H
London Welsh A
Treviso H

If we don't win the vast majority of our home games by then, and if we aren't near the top of our European group given the teams involved, then I think we need to start looking for a replacement for next season.

We are playing most of the lower ranked Rabo teams at home before Christmas, and it is only going to get harder in the 2nd half of the season so can't see much improvement there.

[EWT Spoons]

As I sort of half suggested earlier, Lineen.

He's contracted to the SRU, and he helped build a team ethos at Glasgow.  I think we need him to come in and repeat that in Edinburgh.  We're miles away from Glasgow currently in terms of performance.  I'm not saying Lineen will come in and we'll start playing like Glasgow or anything like that, I just think he could actually help turn things around and move us in the right direction, because currently we don't seem to be getting better, it could even be argued we're getting worse.

I don't doubt for a minute that Solomons cares or that he works hard, but I'd put in a fair old shift and I care about Edinburgh, doesn't mean that I'd be able to get anything out of the team either.

I know it isn't ideal in terms of changing coach, but even just a glance over at the Ulster match thread helps make the case against him.  It's clear we're all confident that we're going to get torn a new one against Ulster, there isn't one iota of positivity about our potential performance.  Now I know Ulster are streets ahead of us, so this probably isn't a great point, but we should at least have some level of hope, that maybe we might sneak something from the game.  Even a losing bonus point, but currently I doubt any sane Edinburgh fan would say we have a snowballs chance in hell of leaving the field on Friday night with anything other than a total and utter thrashing.  This probably applies to most if not all the teams we will face in the Pro12.

[EWT Spoons]

GC he was in before the first game of the season last year, he's had a full season. Yes he missed pre season last year, but in terms of games he's had the full suite.

[George Carlin]

Fair point Spoons but I would imagine that by 'full season', most coaches would tell you that this means a pre-season with the backroom staff of their choosing.

Solomons turned Ulster around and I still have faith that he can make substantial improvements with the Flower Arrangers. Like all Scottish rugby fans, I just want to see my teams fight their arse off. Nothing you can do if the other side have more skills but I want to see that defeat hurts and that nothing is left over at the end of the game.

[InjuredYetAgain]

Not Lineen please. If you have a look at the players he had at his disposal and he won nothing with. Look back a few years and Glw's back line had the two Evans, a younger and better SLamont, Ewan Murray and Richie Gray to name but two up front.
Granted, he does seem to do a reasonable job identifying talent but he could nurture it in my opinion.
As RDW says, who would you get to replace him? Coaches are out of work because they are pish in the majority of cases. On the off chance, there was a non-pish (if that is a word) one out there, why would he want to join a fairly mediocre team who aren't in the main European competition?

[TJ]

Far too early to write Solomons off. The MFLs showed a bit of toughness in coming back last week and their defence looked better organised, Still missing some players with injury, still struggling to find some confidence. Wait until after Christmas at least please

[IanBru]

I'm not happy with the results but, the Ospreys match aside, Edinburgh's performances are definitely better than the darkest days under Bradley. I'm going to lay my stones on the table and say that Edinburgh will seriously challenge for the Heino places this year. Have faith, brethren.

[BigGee]

Agree with all that. There has been good, bad and indifferent so far this season and it is way to early to see how it will turn out. The only thing you can guarantee about changing the coach is another two years of instability!

Unless he has completely lost the changing room, which does not seem to be the case, he certainly stays for this season. I think things will settle down with time.

[InjuredYetAgain]

A good point, TJ. They actually showed some resolve against the Scarlets by coming back from such a deficit especially with the usual quota of guts in the bin.
We badly need to get the discipline sorted though.
If a club player committed some of the offences that have ended up in cards being shown, he would have been made to drink a dirty pint in the clubhouse afterwards.
IanBru obviously doesn't value his nads much. While I agree Edinburgh will improve, the likes of Connacht are also getting better, the Dragons will eventually have enough fit players that they won't need to play some guy who turned up to watch with his boots in his car etc so is don't think we will make the top 7

[RuggerRadge2611]

I agree with Ian, Solomans has made some iffy decisions but he's missing Dozer and Scott-12 arguably 2 of Edinburgh's most important players.

Once we have these guys back playing regularly we'll have a better stick to measure Solomans on.

I just hope Scott doesn't turn into a Rory Lamont.

[EWT Spoons]

GC – I agree pre-season with his backroom staff has been his ‘get out of jail free’ card, and yes it’s obviously important so I was fairly accepting of the dross we got served up most weeks last year.  He’s had that now, so he needs to show some level of improvement in the side, but so far it’s not been there.

Lineen may not have won anything with Glasgow, but neither has Toonie (yet!).  Plus I wouldn’t be expecting Edinburgh to win anything to be honest, at least not for a while.  We just need someone to take control of the team, identify players who are capable and nurture/develop them and build a team.  I’m not convinced Solomans is capable of that.  Sure he did well with Ulster, but he was much less successful with Northampton.

TJ – our defence has been very mixed in terms of performance, it would seem if you run straight at the Edinburgh players they’ll probably stop you, however run any form of lines and it tends to catch us out.  Yes they did better to come back against Scarlets, but we really didn’t deserve anything from that game.

IanBru – That is some bold predicting with your stones on the table.

I get that Lineen isn’t great, but to be honest at this point we don’t need great, we just need better than what we have, and so far that’s not a very high bar.  I’m not saying Solomons isn’t necessarily  the man to do it, but he needs to start getting the team to show something soon.  I think if he gets till Xmas and things are still just as bad, then the SRU need to look at his position.  To be clear, if Solomons can turn things round and get the team winning (ideally with a Scottish core) then I will be delighted, and I don’t want us to constantly change the coaching staff, but for Scottish rugby we need a strong Glasgow & Edinburgh, and currently one team is holding up their end of the deal, the other isn’t.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Lineen made the playoffs two of the three years they existed during his time in charge. Yes, we were nowhere near as strong in the league as we have been in the past couple of years under Toonie, but the achievements in those two years match what we have achieved recently.

Considering the differences in budget and facilities between now and then are night and day. Also the league IMHO is not as strong in terms of quality as it was four years ago. Welsh teams have slipped back big time over the past couple of years and it could be argued currently that certainly Munster and arguably Lenister are not the power houses they once were.

He did have a number of good players no doubt about it, but we didn't have a squad to compete and every season it felt like that if we only lost two or three key players, then we had done ok.

[funnyExiledScot]

I would take Lineen at Edinburgh in a flash. He laid the foundations at Glasgow which is basically what Solomons has been tasked to do at Edinburgh, only Solomons has so far made a complete hash of it.

[EWT Spoons]

I would take Lineen at Edinburgh in a flash. He laid the foundations at Glasgow which is basically what Solomons has been tasked to do at Edinburgh, only Solomons has so far made a complete hash of it.

What he said. Which is essentially what I was trying to say.

[tigertattie]

Ach, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and start calling for P45s. Solomons came with a decent pedegree and I don't think we can lay the blame entirely on him.

He's working with a new 9 and 10 combo. He is missing internationalists. I'd still give him time to see what developes!

As the coach though, he needs to be the one taking control to start sorting things out. As the coach he needs to light an almighty bomb under the backsides of some of the players. He can't make Nel stop getting yellow cards! He can't stop Strauss from being utter gash! He can't make Cuthbert into a decent winger! What he can do is drop Strauss as there are alternatives. What he can do is tell Nel, "if you get a card in the next 3 matches, yer dropped for a few weeks". What he can do is play a winger on the wing and put Cuthbert on the bench!

[funnyExiledScot]

To be clear I would give Solomons until the end of the season regardless, and then ask him to make the case to demonstrate that improvements have been made. Better results and a better league placing than the prior season are a bare minimum.

The reason why there needs to be a review sooner rather than later is that he has so far shown some lousy judgement as regards selling and signing players, and I'm not sure we can survive another summer. I can see Gilchrist, Denton, Scott and Visser all leaving for another influx of inferior NSQ players.

[RDW]

I think the Top 6 is looking a long way away just now (not a complete right off), so I think more reasonable targets are:

- Be competitive in every game
- Stay competitive until the end of the season
- Win most home games, especially against bottom 6 teams
- Retain a solid core of SQ players throughout the season
- Improve the style of rugby on offer to try to build more of a fanbase

They are definitely reasonable targets. If he falls down on 1 or 2 of those, I think he will definitely be judged a failure.

[funnyExiledScot]

One more: beat the soap dodgers.

They tend to choke on the big stage when it really matters, so if we can somehow up the stakes they should fold.....

[RDW]

As much as it pains me to say it, I think we're more likely to get a top 6 finish than beat the great unwashed over two legs.

[George Carlin]

I think the Top 6 is looking a long way away just now (not a complete right off), so I think more reasonable targets are:

- Be competitive in every game
- Stay competitive until the end of the season
- Win most home games, especially against bottom 6 teams
- Retain a solid core of SQ players throughout the season
- Improve the style of rugby on offer to try to build more of a fanbase

They are definitely reasonable targets. If he falls down on 1 or 2 of those, I think he will definitely be judged a failure.

A few more:
- face the right way at restarts.
- have no more than 5 people sent off in any one match.
- not to use the phrase "***king hopeless" in post-match interviews.
- to have no more than 20 NSQs in the match day 23

[RDW]

I think the Top 6 is looking a long way away just now (not a complete right off), so I think more reasonable targets are:

- Be competitive in every game
- Stay competitive until the end of the season
- Win most home games, especially against bottom 6 teams
- Retain a solid core of SQ players throughout the season
- Improve the style of rugby on offer to try to build more of a fanbase

They are definitely reasonable targets. If he falls down on 1 or 2 of those, I think he will definitely be judged a failure.

A few more:
- face the right way at restarts.
- have no more than 5 people sent off in any one match.
- not to use the phrase "***king hopeless" in post-match interviews.
- to have no more than 20 NSQs in the match day 23

Now come on GC - we need to be realistic here and think of achievable targets!

[EWT Spoons]

Waiting till the season ends I think is too late, players are into the last years of their contracts just now (Visser & Scott for example both expire in 2015), give him till Christmas, if our key players have re-signed and things have improved, then happy days, if we're still terrible and the players haven't signed new contracts, then I think we need to look elsewhere.  

I realise I'm beating this drum quite a lot, but I share the same fear you've called out FES.  Why would those players you've listed want to stay somewhere where they don't get the ball (Visser) or they are being played out of position and rarely get the ball (Scott) and are part of a team that gets humped regularly.

Once again for clarity, I don't want rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him, and if he turns things round and meets the objectives RDW has called out then great.  Currently he's failing on all of those.  If one of the players wasn't meeting any of the objectives Solomons set, he would be dropped from the side and someone else would take his place.  He wouldn't be left in the team on the off chance he came good at the end of the season.  I realise the situation is different between players and coaches, and you wouldn't sack a player and you can't 'drop' a coach, but even in a normal business, if one of your employees is having a mare and has continued to have said mare for over a year, then most folk would probably, after trying to do everything you can to help, lay them off.  If you didn’t then your manager would be asking questions of you and you’d probably get the sack.  Again I know this is professional sport and it doesn’t follow the same rules as the real world, but there is some level of crossover.

In my work, Solomons would be on a performance contract and he would be getting regularly reviewed, if he failed to meet agreed objectives/targets over a 3 month period he’d be out the door.

[VinceWLB]

I think the Top 6 is looking a long way away just now (not a complete right off), so I think more reasonable targets are:

- Be competitive in every game
- Stay competitive until the end of the season
- Win most home games, especially against bottom 6 teams
- Retain a solid core of SQ players throughout the season
- Improve the style of rugby on offer to try to build more of a fanbase

They are definitely reasonable targets. If he falls down on 1 or 2 of those, I think he will definitely be judged a failure.

It takes years for a team to implement a new game style and for fans to accept it, Munster fans were unhappy to see their team moving the ball around last season and were all crying out to get back to their old forward dominated gameplan.

I like a forward oriented team so my judgement could be biased but talks of Solomons being shown the door are way premature.

[RDW]

I'm not talking about turning us into the barbarians - our playing style is so negative and a load of dross just now. Our backs are an after thought.

[VinceWLB]

Glasgow were playing a rather negative style under Lineen, and were a very tough team to beat, if unspectacular at times. Look where they are now.

Being a tough team to beat is what comes 1st in my opinion, if that means playing not so spectacular then so be it. We must hope the Ospreys game was just a one off though.

Good news, weather looks pish for friday night!

[Nematode]

Amazing to think only a few years ago Edinburgh beat Racing Metro away.

Got me wondering - how bad was Phil Godman compared to Edinburgh's options at 10 now? And also, where has this attacking style gone?

I can't see Strauss pulling that off, or Heathcote giving that kind of pass.

[TJ]

One more: beat the soap dodgers.

They tend to choke on the big stage when it really matters, so if we can somehow up the stakes they should fold.....

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez

[jimbopip]

One more: beat the soap dodgers.

They tend to choke on the big stage when it really matters, so if we can somehow up the stakes they should fold.....

OK I'll wager Bru's stones against an MFL win (in either leg...not on aggregate) it doesn't get more serious than that.

[jimbopip]

And any jokes about Toonie choking on young Ian's stones will not be tolerated.

[RDW]

An interesting development of yesterday's academy announcement in Aberdeen is that it has brought the topic of a 3rd Pro team up, with the suggestions that this is laying the foundations for setting one up.

Now, this has been a well discussed topic on here, and nothing that anyone has said has suggested it is going to happen sometime soon, but Vern Cotter is certainly in favour of a 3rd team, and Dodson said he would love to have 4 but there simply isn't the money, or a league for them to play in for that matter!

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/sru-looks-north-in-quest-for-third-pro-team-1-3559895

SEVEN years on from the disbanding of the Border Reivers, Scottish Rugby may just have taken its first tentative step towards the reinstatement of a third professional team – this time based in Caledonia.

Such a move is still, at best, some way off. But national coach Vern Cotter sees it as the natural consequence of the successful growth of the BT Sport Scottish Rugby Academy in Aberdeen, launched yesterday as the first of four academies, one in each of the governing body’s four regions.

Each region had its own team when the sport went professional in the 1990s, with the Caledonia Reds representing the North and Midlands. The Reds were officially merged with Glasgow in 1998, while the Borders joined forces with Edinburgh the same year before returning as an independent entity for five years from 2002.



Scottish Rugby’s desire to return to four professional teams has hitherto been widely seen as a pious intention with little hope of realisation, but BT’s £20 million investment in the sport has encouraged Cotter and other leading figures to think big.

“I would like to see more Scottish available players playing in Scotland,” Cotter said. “If we had a third team, it would mean rugby is progressing and we have players who are coming out of these environments performing.

“Can you then put in another professional, or two professional teams? When you look at it like that then the future is really exciting. That will be one of the questions that will be asked in two years’ time. If we can produce ten competitive professional rugby players from this environment or more every year, that would be great.”

Where previously the professional teams were top-down ventures, brought into being by Murrayfield and imposed against the wishes of a significant number of clubs and individuals, under Cotter’s analysis a new professional outfit in the north would be born as the result of pressure from below. If an increasing number of players with international potential were coming out of the Aberdeen academy, support for the sport could grow in the city and the wider region, ensuring a ready-made following for a representative team.

“There is potential here,” Cotter continued. “The more professional, competitive players we can produce and the more players available to the national team, the better it is going to be. This is a great step forward having an academy. I think it’s tremendous. It’s a professional facility. It has been well-thought out and is a great opportunity for young players to get selected and become part of us and eventually become professional rugby players either here or abroad. I think it is a great opportunity for them.

“It’s a great initiative. I congratulate the SRU and BT Sport for putting this in place and with the objective of putting another couple in as well. You can’t underestimate the importance of having these type of places in Scotland and outside of Edinburgh.

“The grassroots guys who are throwing the ball around today can look at this place and can think and believe that if they are good enough, and they develop, they get selected and they have a chance to become a professional rugby player. So their pathway becomes quite evident. I am really excited about this. If I was a young rugby player I would be too.

“This compares to any facility in world rugby. It’s outstanding. It will be well run and we just want the players to put their hands up now. If we can create competition up here that’s a good thing. From what I can gather there is great potential up here in Aberdeen and the north-east area. We need to develop it.”

Cotter knows it will be some time before any academy graduate, either from Aberdeen or the other planned centres in the Borders, North Lanarkshire or Edinburgh, is on the verge of selection to the Scotland team. With players initially being recruited at 16, the 2019 Rugby World Cup could be the stage on which those graduates make their mark.

“If you can learn pro habits, you have to be identified at 16 or even earlier. You then have two years of pro preparation. At 19, 20 players should be coming through. I’m thinking you’re looking at three or four years before you see the benefit.

“We’ll try to get as many players as possible out of here and into pro teams. If you’re producing ten world-class professional rugby players [from one academy], if you have four of those [academies] that’s 40 players.”

Scottish Rugby chief executive Mark Dodson agreed with Cotter that the Aberdeen academy had the potential to build up momentum for a third team. “We’ve been very clear that we need a third franchise,” Dodson said. “The economics behind that are always the obstacle. We can’t have one that starts and fails, and we need to know where it would play. We’ve got the Guinness Pro 12 – it’s not the Guinness Pro 13. So we have to wait until we have the ability to build a team and enter a competition that’s worthwhile and meaningful.

“We’re looking at all options at the moment. We’ve never said that we don’t need a third franchise. I would love four franchises, but I haven’t got the wherewithal to pay for it or the players to populate it. In a few years, absolutely. This is the first step on a journey.”

[EWT Spoons]

Good chat from Vern. I think we generally all agree that we need a 3rd team (or more) but at this time there aren't enough players to justify it (plus the costs are pretty prohibitive). If the acadamies are producing more players than we can fit into Edinburgh & Glasgow, then that's the time to start looking at what the options are around a 3rd team.

Still think we should be looking at London Scottish, but that's a different conversation.

[cakeordeath]

Academies don't mean Poopie if you are not getting into the schools/communities to increase the number of kids playing the game.

[George Carlin]

Correct Cakey - but I think that the SRU are approaching this the right way. It's fashionable to be frothy about a new third team but it seems that the SRU are quite clear eyed about this and their priority is clearly the academies for now. Surely everyone knows by now that we're going to get a much better team in 10 years by paying all of Scottish schools PE teachers to coach rugby on Saturday mornings, rather than pouring dosh into a new professional franchise.

[RDW]

Well the academies are meant to work with players aged 14 above, so I suspect there will be a lot of schools involvement.

[RuggerRadge2611]

The Caley reds would be the team I would follow being a fifer the Reds were fed from the fife district.

[George Carlin]

Wait a minute? Does that mean that the Warriors won't get to keep living off the steady stream of talent from the Howe of Fife? Not sure I approve of that. We get first dibs.

[tigertattie]

I'm going to predict............................... a riot!

but really, I'm going to say that the cup this year will be one win a piece! Unfortuantly the soap avoiders will have the larger points tally though!

[IanBru]

And any jokes about Toonie choking on young Ian's stones will not be tolerated.

There's a certain... symmetry here.

http://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/14/10/01/warriors-get-bags-support-sackmaker

[George Carlin]

That's a very sinister sponsor.

If the Warriors subsequently get sponsored by McKie's Chloroform and Shuggy's Hacksaws, I don't think that I'll ever to back to Scotstoun. Well, I will but won't try the burgers for sure.

[Sponsored content]