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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 18 Nov - 9:43

First topic message reminder :

Sr,
1).Correct. Wonderful is right. Though in the American order of things behind the NFL, College Football, High School Football, NBA, College B'ball.
2).Not much of a market: 21,000 per home game.
3).But no other nations pay their players a fraction of this sort of bounty. He'll probably end up using PED's, just like his predecessor as highest paid.
Ridiculous money!

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Post by I'm never wrong Thu 19 Feb - 8:49

MustPuttBetter wrote:The goalkeeper would have tripped Rooney.
There is your answer. Would. But he didn't. Ifs Buts and Maybes. The fact that Rooney was past him - it doesn't matter by how much, he was past him. So if somebody falls due to another players actions, without any contact that is a foul? No way. Rooney dived. It was not my punch argument, but I was explaining it. I'll give you a more appropriate scenario. Two players jockeying in the box. One player shoves his arms out to push the other player. Other player has moved so quick the first one didn't notice, so he shoves "air". Foul? No.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 19 Feb - 8:54

The punch example is actually perfect, which is why you're avoiding answering it.
By your logic if I dodge the punch it's ok. By Navy's logic if it's only a little punch and I could stay on my feet then I should.

I'll leave this one there because anti United specs will obviously make people see anything they like
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Post by Davie Thu 19 Feb - 8:58

That's only a better question (in your mind) because it supports the opinion you have already made. In the punch example I never said the punch was thrown - just that the player thinks a punch may be about to be thrown - just like the player who thinks a foul is about to be committed

INW gets it - you don't

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Post by I'm never wrong Thu 19 Feb - 9:00

I am not anti United. I am anti diving, shirt pulling, not retreating ten yards and all the other things that go on. I have avoided the punch scenario because it is not the same argument. Punching someone is not what a player would reasonably expect to happen on a football pitch whereas being fouled, unfortunately is. We'll agree to disagree. Goodnight.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 19 Feb - 9:01

Davie you mean INW agrees with you and I dont. Ha

Roy Hodgson gets it. You don't.....
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 19 Feb - 18:55

MustPuttBetter wrote:So it's only a foul if he absolutely had to go over.  If a guy catches you a bit but you could stay up you are obliged to? So he essentially had to leave his leg there to be snapped for the tackle to qualify as a foul? I'm sorry Navy, thats nonsense

I suspect we will not come to an agreement on this one!
Don't be daft. I never said anything about whether it should be deemed a foul or not and certainly never suggested Rooney should leave a leg there for actual contact, of whatever sort (I doubt a broken leg would result from any impact in this one). Stop putting words in my mouth.
Rooney wasn't touched and he easily hurdled the keeper's leg. He didn't lose his balance. He could have easily stayed on his feet. He (and all like him who see it as OK to fall over like this), are cheats. Pure and simple.
I accept it's "part of the game" but then maybe that's why I have little time for it overall. Even if I'd had a talent like Rooney's, or far more, I'd never have made it to the top because I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I cheat like he (and so many) do when apparently, that's what you have to do. I'll never accept it.
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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 19 Feb - 18:59

MustPuttBetter wrote:The punch example is actually perfect, which is why you're avoiding answering it.
By your logic if I dodge the punch it's ok. By Navy's logic if it's only a little punch and I could stay on my feet then I should.

I'll leave this one there because anti United specs will obviously make people see anything they like
Absolutely, you should. It's pathetic, despicable and it's cheating. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a foul or that I'd not get sent off for a little punch.
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Post by beninho Thu 19 Feb - 19:12

I hate it when pundits and fans go on about their being contact, just because their has been contact does not make it a foul. It is a contact sport ( or used to be). Any punch being thrown, whether it hits or misses is a foul and red card, thats violent conduct, a high reckless challenge, whether it hits or misses is a foul and card. But a genuine attempt to get the ball, and the player is not brought down specifically by the attempt. No foul. Not always a dive, if the player falls over in his attempt to get past the tackle though.

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Post by super_realist Thu 19 Feb - 19:13

Partly why I no longer like football Navy, it's hilarious that people use these people as "role models", really, who'd want to be like a footballer? Cheating, diving, spitting, swearing at the ref, barracking the linesmen, pushing players, shirt tugging, stealing yards, timewasting etc.

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu 19 Feb - 19:48

A footballing anecdote:

A French friend of mine was a very, very good player as an early teenager. Got to go to Clairfontaine(sp?) when the French national side was playing. Played a bit for youth sides etc. He related a few stories. One that I remember well was another player (winger) was fouled but didn't go down, carried on, put in a cross but the move came to nothing. He was subbed immediately and rollocked for not taking a dive. My French mate also told me (have no reason to doubt him) that occasionally, someone was brought in specifically to teach players how to dive convincingly in the youth sides.

If that's the level the game's at, it's almost beyond help. Shame really.
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Post by beninho Thu 19 Feb - 20:10

But it is new that players dive, or do whatever they can to gain an advantage. It has been going on in Europe and South America for decades, And in all likelihood has been going on in English football longer then anyone is aware of, but not until all games started being covered, and sky sports made football big big business, and rolling news channels. Is their more diving, cheating, etc now, probably, but I do not think the game has changed a great deal.

Though in all sports people try and gain an advantage in whatever way they can, same as business i suppose.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 19 Feb - 20:24

navyblueshorts wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:The punch example is actually perfect, which is why you're avoiding answering it.
By your logic if I dodge the punch it's ok. By Navy's logic if it's only a little punch and I could stay on my feet then I should.

I'll leave this one there because anti United specs will obviously make people see anything they like
Absolutely, you should. It's pathetic, despicable and it's cheating. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a foul or that I'd not get sent off for a little punch.

Well, I'm just glad I watch a different game to some of you chaps. Dear oh dear
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Post by McLaren Thu 19 Feb - 21:35

Navy

It is worrying that anyone would need taught to dive given how easy it is. As I said earlier within minutes of a game starting you have a good idea about who you can win a free kick from. Whether that be a player who will be a little to eager to win the ball or is a little clumsy.

Davie

I assume you don't play football? No matter what level you play at you go down when you feel even a whiff on contact in the box. Hell, as far as I can remember people were diving in the primary school playground 20 years ago.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Thu 19 Feb - 21:46

I actually agree with Mac!
It's not hard to spot the difference between those who have played a bit and those who watch.
As if there is a rule that says that someone has to kick you with publically acceptable sufficient force to knock you over, otherwise you should stand up because it's the 'right' thing to do.
Can you imagine a tennis player volleying a ball that's going out because he doesn't 'have' to let it go out and if he can hit it he should....

People get so wrapped up in their trying to be macho, 'men should stand up' thing that they forget it's a game. You try to win.
What Rooney did was not blatant cheating - of which there is plenty. Had he not raised his legs over the keeper he would have been brought down and it would have been a foul. I am assuming this is not debatable. The only thing different between that scenario and what happened is Rooney chose to get out the way. Incredible that it can be seen any differently to be honest.
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Post by Davie Fri 20 Feb - 0:21

Of course I don't play football anymore - I'm 54 years old with knackered knees :P

I have thought about that walking football though laughing

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Post by beninho Fri 20 Feb - 0:25

I played walking football a few months back, we were up with the in laws, and i was asked to make the numbers. Its hard! You keep wanting to run or take someone on. I played with a guy in his early 70's, he was an ex pro and then youth coach, and you could tell.

Was good fun mind.

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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 1:04

Davie

Have you ever played football?
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 1:12

Mac,
Are you seriously advocating diving?

Based upon the 20+ years I played regularly, if someone dived (and I can honestly say I don't recall such an incident) when I tackled him and I was penalised, the penalty for the initial incident would be minor compared to the follow-up.
Ridiculous.

Way past time that the refs and governing bodies did their jobs.

Rooney got the benefit of two highly marginal decisions that one seriously doubts Kevin Davies, for instance, would have received.
EDIT: "Kevin Davies" an especially bad example under the circumstances . . . . . . . Doh but you know what I mean. Big club bias!

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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 1:35

Kwini

Kevin Davies is a far greater stain on football than diving ever will be.

I would certainly advocate diving over playing the game with as little skill, technique and intelligence as kevin davies.
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Post by super_realist Fri 20 Feb - 1:38

McLaren wrote:Davie

Have you ever played football?

We're all waiting to see what level you played at Mac.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 1:40

I suspect those who dive, and those who advocate or encourage it, cheat also at other sports. Golf for instance.

(Fan here of Davies AND Rooney, just not cheating, and certainly not the preferential treatment that the bigger clubs invariably receive.)

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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 1:40

Obviously not a particularly high one, but not sure anyone was claiming that.
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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 1:41

Kwini

I have cheated in golf, if that's what you are hinting at. Everyone has at some point.
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 1:56

Let's hope not. Probably something you learned in your primary school.

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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 2:10

Kwini

Are you saying you have never slightly improved a lie? Or clipped the sand with your club while climbing into a bunker and said nothing? Or any other similarly minor infraction in the whole of your playing days?


I would like to think I have cheated way less than most golfers but lets forget the nonsense about people not cheating in golf.
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 2:15

Certainly not knowingly. Anything such as that I immediately declare to my playing partner/competitor, take the appropriate penalty.
Why wouldn't you? Best way to ensure you at least have the higher moral position if someone cheats against you.



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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 2:18

Kwini

I guess it don't see breaking golf rules as a moral issue for starters. And as I said, I already know people will have cheated against me. Do you really believe the golfer is above cheating? I dont.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 2:22

I don't care.
If someone cheats vs me I either call them on it or, possibly but not invariably, accept it if there's nothing at stake.
In most cases it's just not knowing the rules . . . . and I certainly don't know all.
Just know that cheating at any sport is reprehensible.

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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 2:33

Kwini, I don't set out to cheat regularly when playing golf but there is no way I could claim never to have cheated/flirted with the rules. As I said, I suspect I am at the more honest end of the golf cheating spectrum, In that I have cheated on very few occasions and happy to admit to it.
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Post by super_realist Fri 20 Feb - 2:41

Depends what you mean by "cheating". My regular group doesn't require the application of the rules to the strictest degree 100% of the time. i.e. if my ball is in a divot, or in a footprint in a bunker.

So, yes, I've broken the rules and in effect cheated, but when we have decided not to play to them.

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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 2:51

s_r,
But that's making your own "local rules" so that's not cheating if all are playing to them. The pros do that every week.


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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri 20 Feb - 3:11

I'm back in the much more comfortable position of not agreeing with Mac anymore......

As an aside, Kwini, Kevin Davies should have been sent off in the game v United. He was on a yellow and put in a very lunging, both feet off the floor, nowhere near the ball challenge and conceded a free kick in the 2nd half. Would have been a yellow at any other time. In fact, more so than the first. He was substituted not long after.
All players receive decisions, some for, some against
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Post by kwinigolfer Fri 20 Feb - 3:31

MPB,
See my earlier edit re Davies! Boneheaded example.
Still think the "bigger" club habitually receives preferential treatment which was my intended point, and seriously doubt Davies would have got either of the decisions that benefitted Rooney.


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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 3:35

Kwini

Of course Davies wouldn't have dived over the keeper like Rooney did, he would have taken the opportunity to slide in and plant his knee somewhere on the keepers head.
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri 20 Feb - 4:16

To be fair,  you are probably right Kwini re the big clubs getting some decisions. Shouldn't happen but I think it does
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Post by Hibbz Fri 20 Feb - 4:17

Pretty sure Jimenez has "cheated" in his first round of the Indian Open. I'm watching highlights and he definitely dislodged some leaves on a practice swing but appears to have not been penalised. Obviously not deliberate and doubtful he noticed so does that count as cheating?

I reckon the commentators noticed though as they had said he'd need to be careful not to and then went rather quiet when he did.

Not like he gained any great advantage anyway I guess.

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Fri 20 Feb - 4:41

Could be wrong Hibbz, but I think that rule got reworded so taking a couple of leaves out of plenty, many, lots was okay unless it clearly created an advantage for the player.

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Post by Hibbz Fri 20 Feb - 4:51

Didn't know that Grumps, you're dead right though. Not sure I'd like to get into a debate if I was to do it and I wouldn't have ever bothered pulling someone else on it but definitely good to know.

Apologies to Miguel as well if he's reading!!

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 19:35

MustPuttBetter wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:The punch example is actually perfect, which is why you're avoiding answering it.
By your logic if I dodge the punch it's ok. By Navy's logic if it's only a little punch and I could stay on my feet then I should.

I'll leave this one there because anti United specs will obviously make people see anything they like
Absolutely, you should. It's pathetic, despicable and it's cheating. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a foul or that I'd not get sent off for a little punch.

Well, I'm just glad I watch a different game to some of you chaps. Dear oh dear
You obviously do. Or you have a different set of standards.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 19:38

McLaren wrote:...Davie

I assume you don't play football?  No matter what level you play at you go down when you feel even a whiff on contact in the box. Hell, as far as I can remember people were diving in the primary school playground 20 years ago.
They weren't when I was playing at school in the 70s. Actually, that's not quite true. Played one school match (we were getting stuffed) and the ref told one of our strikers to go down in the box....which is then what happened. The ref told him to do this. Didn't work though as their keeper, who was brilliant at that age group, saved the spot kick. Guess it's been a cancer in the game for a long time.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 19:41

MustPuttBetter wrote:I actually agree with Mac!
It's not hard to spot the difference between those who have played a bit and those who watch.
As if there is a rule that says that someone has to kick you with publically acceptable sufficient force to knock you over, otherwise you should stand up because it's the 'right' thing to do.
Can you imagine a tennis player volleying a ball that's going out because he doesn't 'have' to let it go out and if he can hit it he should....

People get so wrapped up in their trying to be macho, 'men should stand up' thing that they forget it's a game. You try to win.
What Rooney did was not blatant cheating - of which there is plenty. Had he not raised his legs over the keeper he would have been brought down and it would have been a foul. I am assuming this is not debatable. The only thing different between that scenario and what happened is Rooney chose to get out the way. Incredible that it can be seen any differently to be honest.
I just don't get this position one iota. There are Laws/Rules...otherwise, have a free for all. Rooney "simulated" ergo, he cheated and should have been brought to book for it, certainly after the event, if not at the actual time.
It's laughable the comment above re. those that've played vs. those that haven't. It's obvious that this is so inculcated into the sport that anyone who plays it seriously thinks it's OK. The assumption that we should assume that those who cheat with abandon should then be expected to condemn themselves and their peers is, frankly, dumb.

This is a 'sport' that doesn't see any issues with, on one hand, demanding the ball be put out by the team in possession when one of the their players is injured (or, most likely, faking) and get angry when the opposition don't comply but, at the same time, see no problem in diving/faking/demanding an opposition player be booked/sent off after they've faked a foul. It's a farce and I don't know why I'm surprised that all and sundry associated with this 'sport' can't see that there's a problem with the behaviour of Rooney the other night and all the many other comparable acts of blatant cheating.
The footballing authorities could stop this, no problem. Trouble is, they're as corrupt as the mafia.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 19:52

McLaren wrote:Kwini

I guess it don't see breaking golf rules as a moral issue for starters.  And as I said, I already know people will have cheated against me.  Do you really believe the golfer is above cheating?  I dont.

So, your utterly ridiculous assumption is that others cheat, so therefore you get your cheats in first???? Oh, sorry, I forgot. You play/adore football. Should have remembered that.

Your position is nonsensical Mac.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 19:54

McLaren wrote:Kwini

Of course Davies wouldn't have dived over the keeper like Rooney did, he would have taken the opportunity to slide in and plant his knee somewhere on the keepers head.
What we desperately need here, is a 'Straw Man' emoji....
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Post by MustPuttBetter Fri 20 Feb - 20:14

I am glad I watch the game with a different set of standards Navy.
I'm also glad I don't feel the need to log on and trawl through and reply to each post in turn to lodge my objections to them. I'm further glad I do not feel the need to label those opinions different to mine as dumb (dear oh dear).

Let's just agree to disagree, the topic had moved on anyway
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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 21:30

Navy

I don't get me cheats in first. I admit that on a tiny percentage of the competitive rounds I have played I could have followed the rules more closely, and not having done so could have admitted this.

I just don't believe that a large proportion of golfers are calling all the penalties etc on themselves that they should have done if following the rules to the letter.

For example I know for sure I have been well out of sight when taking a shot from some shaky pine straw and had the ball move what looked like a tiny amount, but given myself the benefit of the doubt. Or possibly accidentally improved the lie behind the ball a little too much in the thick rough when placing the club, but said nothing. Can anyone really say the are immune from these sort of decisions?

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Post by Roller_Coaster Fri 20 Feb - 22:27

Curiosity linked to the I cheat, you cheat, we all cheat, no we don't direction.

Guy I know lines up and addresses the ball before rubbing his club backwards and forwards (ie away from his body and towards his body) behind the ball a few times before starting his takeaway.

Is this technically legal as surely it improves the lie directly behind the ball? I've looked at it and thought it would be likely to improve his strike (but genuinely don't believe he is deliberately trying to achieve this or actually cheat)


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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 23:07

MustPuttBetter wrote:I am glad I watch the game with a different set of standards Navy.
I'm also glad I don't feel the need to log on and trawl through and reply to each post in turn to lodge my objections to them. I'm further glad I do not feel the need to label those opinions different to mine as dumb (dear oh dear).

Let's just agree to disagree, the topic had moved on anyway
Touché. Certainly glad to disagree with you MPB.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 20 Feb - 23:11

Roller_Coaster wrote:Curiosity linked to the I cheat, you cheat, we all cheat, no we don't direction.

Guy I know lines up and addresses the ball before rubbing his club backwards and forwards (ie away from his body and towards his body) behind the ball a few times before starting his takeaway.

Is this technically legal as surely it improves the lie directly behind the ball? I've looked at it and thought it would be likely to improve his strike (but genuinely don't believe he is deliberately trying to achieve this or actually cheat)

Laugh Pretty sure that ain't allowed. He may not know it, but someone should point it out to him. It may even be a subconscious habit, but I'd still be a little concerned if I was playing against him and he was doing that in, say, the semi-rough.
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Post by McLaren Fri 20 Feb - 23:12

Navy

What do you make of Paul Scholes take on the Rooney "dive"?

He writes that the rules do not mention contact when describing a reckless act for which a foul could be awarded. I am not really into checking football rules so this may or may not be true.

He also makes the point that a large part of football is exploiting the mistakes of others, and lunging out like the keeper did was certainly a massive error.
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Post by Davie Fri 20 Feb - 23:36

I certainly wouldn't call the keeper's actions as "reckless". Stupid maybe but not reckless. If he had made contact it's hardly likely to have caused serious injury (unless by freak accident) and wouldn't have warranted a red card for a reckless tackle (though maybe would have warranted red under other "rules")

As for the guy Roller mentions .. I've seen lots do this when on the fairway and never thought twice of it. I'd possibly be a little more suspicious if it was done in the rough though - but the original post makes no mention of whether it was fairway or rough

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