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PGA Tour: All the Presidents (Cup) Men: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 03 Dec 2014, 2:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Only exhibitions on this week's schedule so let's look back at an event that has also been charitably described as an exhibition - with the odds heavily weighted towards the organizer.
Ah yes, the Presidents Cup!
The USA comfortably beat the International Team at Muirfield Village in 2013, but the members of each Team have "enjoyed" contrasting fortunes since then.

2).Team USA only have 3 x 2014 PGA Tour wins between them, one (Zach Johnson) in a limited field Tournament of Champions, another (Kuchar) by holing a 72nd hole bunker shot and Hunter Mahan's back-from-oblivion Barclays win. What have you done for me lately Messrs Bradley, Dufner, Haas, Mickelson, Simpson (altho' he did have a nice 2013 win in Las Vegas), Snedeker, Spieth (but what a final round master class he produced last Sunday in Sydney), Stricker, Woods?
Wonder how the Gleneagles US Ryder Cuppers will fare? Good starts by Bubba and Spieth, that's for sure.

3).The Internationals haven't done much better but Day and Scott had good wins on two Tours, Kings Charl & Louis did the business in South Africa, while Matsuyama proved that a second trip to Muirfield Village, for the Memorial, was the charm. For him at least. Whilst the biggest surprise might have been Angel Cabrera's win at The Greenbrier. Steady regression though from the De's Jonge & Laet, Els, Grace and Sterne, while Leishman flattered only to deceive.
Sterne, incidentally, is tied bottom of the PGA Tour's web.com Tour graduate reshuffle and will struggle to get in to many Tour fields, plus has lost his Top 50 status. The early favourite among tourists to lose his PGA Tour card.

4).The leaders for each Team for 2015, in South Korea, are:
*USA:
Watson, Walker, Kirk, Furyk, Moore, Kuchar, ZJohnson, Spieth, Horschel, Simpson + 2 x Capatain's Choices. (Still not quite sure how these points are accumulated . . . . )

*International:
Scott, Day, Matsuyama, Schwartzel, Jaidee, Leishman, Senden, DeLaet, Oda, Oosthuizen + 2.

5).web.com Q-School Finals kick off next week and European Tour members are voting with their passports, American David Lipsky being the most notable exception. Rikard Karlberg will be there, mini-Tour veteran Seamus Power from Ireland and Stefan Jaeger too, but no other Europeans that I can spot. Lots of Aussies but the days of European Tour golfers coming over for Q-School seem to be over for now. Not surprisingly.


PS: Let's hope we never lose a Tour Golfer in the freakish circumstances that Cricket lost Phillip Hughes. But, if we do, I wonder if a colleague will provide quite the quality of eulogy delivered today by Michael Clarke? What a moving tribute. Wish we had a Cricket Bat emoticon.

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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Dec 2014, 5:04 pm

What happened to the guy on here who shat into a towel (tarka)?
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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Dec 2014, 5:06 pm

Might just have a pube on a statues head Pedro.

I won an Open the other year, won a bottle of whiskey (gave that to my dad), a voucher for £100, straight in the pocket, and a horrible ghastly glass trophy, which went straight in the bin when I got home.

If I'd been Spieth, I would have certainly made mention to its ugliness in the winners speech and the ghastly ego of whoever had it commissioned and then simply left it at the course where it belongs.

Sort of thing I'd expect to see in the front room of someone on Benefits Street, or a Footballers Mansion.

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Post by McLaren Tue 09 Dec 2014, 6:09 pm

Super

I don't believe for a second you put a trophy straight in the bin, just think how proud your partner, friends and family would have been. Not even you would deprive them of that.
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 09 Dec 2014, 6:11 pm

I'd give it to Mac as an early Christmas pressie.
He could purr himself to sleep, gazing wistfully at the tiger and the world of his own.

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Dec 2014, 6:59 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

I don't believe for a second you put a trophy straight in the bin, just think how proud your partner, friends and family would have been.  Not even you would deprive them of that.

Believe what you want Mac, but I did put it in the bin. It was a frightful angular glass thing, It was just a 36 Hole Open Mac, not anything major or noteworthy, just the type held up and down the country every weekend in the summer.

What have I achieved by winning it? Not much apart from playing better than a bunch of other people and in any event, no one needs a trophy for someone to be proud of them, if at all anyone would be proud of you for winning something quite so tinpot.

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Post by pedro Tue 09 Dec 2014, 7:27 pm

super, it must be fantastic being such a freaking genious and still be so freaking cool about it. You ought to give classes to rock stars and footballers.

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Dec 2014, 7:59 pm

I'm not being a dick about it, I just didn't need or want a ghastly, tawdry trophy but even though it was ghastly, it was nowhere near as ugly or self indulgent than the one that Spieth is now in possession of, which is why I was surprised he was so keen to be seen with such a monstrosity. People knew he won it, so not sure why he'd want to be photographed with such a repulsive trophy.

I'm very much a minimalist person in the house, and don't need tacky stuff around.

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Post by GPB Tue 09 Dec 2014, 9:35 pm

super_realist wrote:I'm not being a dick about it,


IMO, Yes you are.  You incessant railing of the trophy is just following your pattern of criticizing superficial things that do not mean diddly squat.

Yes the trophy is ugly.  Big Effing Deal.  You don't like it.  Fine, that is your prerogative.  We get it.  We got it the first time you said it and you need not repeat over and over again.

I have probably seen and heard Jordan Spieth as much as anyone on this board.  I have NEVER heard mention God or Jesus or anything about the Bible, yet you accuse him of being a Bible Thumper.  I guess because he is clean cut, optimal BMI, has one chin, young, part of good family, you had to make up something about him that you don't like about him so you make a baseless accusation that he is a Bible Thumper.


I'm not being a dick about it,

Yes you are IMO, like you are most everything that you don't like.

FIGJAM is not Phil Mickelson...but it is someone.

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Post by super_realist Tue 09 Dec 2014, 9:40 pm

I refer to anyone religious as being a bible thumper, they don't have to be evangelical about it.

He actually stated in an interview earlier on this year, I think it was around Masters time that he was part of the PGA's very own bible study group along with several other gullible and similarly indoctrinated religious golfers and that they "prayed" (that most worthless of things, in effect, seeking to cheat) prior to the final round. So yes, by my definition, Spieth is quoted as being a bible thumper. Although, had you read the context, it wasn't to denigrate him about it, he's done that himself by exposing his irrationality, it was more that it made him more likely to be in possession of a gun.

The being religious making it more likely to be a gun holders, especially those from Southern states, and thus potential fun for destroying Woods' frightful trophy.

Got it now?

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Post by pedro Tue 09 Dec 2014, 10:32 pm

If they could fit it in a clay pigeon machine, with PGAT players shooting after it with a 7-iron, it would make a good youtube video....

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Post by GPB Tue 09 Dec 2014, 10:47 pm

I think it was around Masters time that he was part of the PGA's very own bible study group 

Wow, that is grounds for ridicule and eternal dam*ation, (pun intended).

I guess he could get drunk and go on twitter rants!

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Post by pedro Tue 09 Dec 2014, 10:56 pm

This one must hurt, mac. But I guess they can exchange views on hair-pieces.

http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2014/12/09/tiger-to-design-trump-course-in-dubai.html

Ironic that TW praises the importance of Dubai as a golfing destination after it was revealed that he'll skip the Desert Classic becuase they don't want to pay his gazillion dollar apperance fee anymore.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 6:45 am

GPB wrote:
I think it was around Masters time that he was part of the PGA's very own bible study group 

Wow, that is grounds for ridicule and eternal dam*ation, (pun intended).

I guess he could get drunk and go on twitter rants!

don't you get it? I wasn't using his preposterous beliefs as a reason to laugh at him, I was using it as increasing the likelihood of him having a GUN for destroying the trophy.


I've got nothing against Spieth, seems like a nice guy, hope he's the top Yank player for a decade.

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Post by incontinentia Wed 10 Dec 2014, 8:59 am

It's really quite sad that you threw away your trophy super. I can't figure out if you're really that miserable, or are purposely being a contrarion in order to be cooler and different than everyone else. Either way boo. Boo on you sir.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 9:19 am

Inco, if you'd seen it you might have done the same Inco. It was like a big glass stalagmite. The box it came in was far nicer than the trophy itself.

I certainly wasn't trying to be cool, I just think that trophies are pretty ghastly things and don't sit well anywhere in the house.
Perhaps if it had been something actually meaningful , such as a big amateur event for example, but a standard Open is nothing special, even though it's the only one I've won.

It was too ugly to show and represents something fairly meaningless, so if I'm not going to display it, why would I keep it?

I don't want to clutter the place up with tasteless and worthless trinkets and ornaments that require an explanation.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Dec 2014, 9:24 am

pedro wrote:This one must hurt, mac. But I guess they can exchange views on hair-pieces.

http://www.pgatour.com/tourreport/2014/12/09/tiger-to-design-trump-course-in-dubai.html

Ironic that TW praises the importance of Dubai as a golfing destination after it was revealed that he'll skip the Desert Classic becuase they don't want to pay his gazillion dollar apperance fee anymore.
What, on Earth, makes anyone think 9C can design decent golf courses?
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Post by pedro Wed 10 Dec 2014, 9:49 am

I guess it will have quite wide fairways...

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 10:00 am

no trees either.

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Post by incontinentia Wed 10 Dec 2014, 10:39 am

Why do you think he's building it in the desert?
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Post by pedro Wed 10 Dec 2014, 11:00 am

Is he good with the sand iron?

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Post by Shotrock Wed 10 Dec 2014, 11:52 am

TW is "designing" a golf course for the same reason Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, (insert player name here) are ... immediate brand equity. I'm not expecting to be overwhelmed, but who knows? Ben Crenshaw (with help to be sure) certainly cracked the code.

Nothing new with getting a "name" associated with a build. Donald Ross, some estimate, probably saw about 50% of the courses with his name on it.

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 10 Dec 2014, 11:58 am

It is typical of Donald Trump that he would want to be associated with Woods for exactly what Shotrock describes, "immediate brand equity". Trump is such a sycophantic tosspot that he wouldn't care one whit that Woods is not a credible "designer".
They deserve each other, in this case at any rate.

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Dec 2014, 12:25 pm

Kwini

In the real world where I am not a Tiger fanatic this is sadly another reason for the declining respect I have for him. He seems to have no shame when it comes to making money. Although I worry that having your name and Trump next to each other is something people in the US see as success.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 12:45 pm

Shame it's not in Afghanistan, could call it the Afghan Whigs GC.

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Post by Shotrock Wed 10 Dec 2014, 1:07 pm

Mac - I would not paint "the people in the US" with such a broad brush (although sweeping stereotypes abound plenty on these boards). And I would wait to see how the project turns out. Trump's course in Scotland appears to be well received (I'll take a wild guess here and suggest Hawtree is a far better "designer" than TW, however.).

The thing about Trump is this ... he puts his money (or money he has access to) where his mouth is. In addition to the Scotland course, his US properties are well received as well (I know a fair number of golfers who have played at his various courses). His course near Pine Valley in NJ certainly is NOT Pine Valley (although Trump himself has a different opinion), but a whole lot more people now have access to a course in the fabled "pine belt". That's certainly not a bad thing for golf.


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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 1:11 pm

Well said Shotrock.

He might be a fairly disgusting human being but he knows how to build a course, or at least knows the right people to get involved in it.

I presume 9C's involvement will be about as considerable as Victoria Beckhams influence was on the Range Rover Evoque.

9C will be nothing more than a "consultant" whose name accounts for more than his actual contribution.

If you replaced the name Trump with some media lovely like Steve Jobs, Mac would be all over it.

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Dec 2014, 1:36 pm

Super can you provide the reasons that led you to become a Trump apoligist?
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 1:39 pm

I'm not a Trump apologist, I am simply honest enough to admit he's built some quality courses, how he's done it is irrelevant.

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 10 Dec 2014, 1:47 pm

I don't suppose Trump gives a monkey's how some project in the Emirates does so long as he gets a fee up front. He'll likely be dead by the time the project opens.
Still don't know if Woods had to repay any of the lucre he got for his last failed Gulf project.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 10 Dec 2014, 2:13 pm

Shotrock wrote:TW is "designing" a golf course for the same reason Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, (insert player name here) are ... immediate brand equity....
Oh, I know that. I just think it's bollox.
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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 3:58 pm

From my observations... the best way to get a golf conversation going "sideways" is to bring religion or politics into it. But that said, I always find amusing the most "holier than thou" attitudes seem to come from those claiming total lack of respect for the "holy".

Moving on...

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Post by GPB Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:09 pm

I just wonder how much work Tiger does in course design.

I imagine that he is just a figurehead designer and really does not get into the Nuts and bolts of design.

More like lets put a bunker here...and a two tier green there, and a unreachable par 5 early in the back nine.

I don't see him getting too involved with drainage, and irrigation, and agronomy, and all the other details that the real designers get into.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:12 pm

Indeed, he can't even make an interview interesting, I sincerely doubt he knows anything about course design.

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:19 pm

Crucially will it be too hot to wear his mom jeans when out in the desert, as they are surely the source of his architectural genius.
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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:19 pm

Shotrock wrote:Mac - I would not paint "the people in the US" with such a broad brush (although sweeping stereotypes abound plenty on these boards). And I would wait to see how the project turns out. Trump's course in Scotland appears to be well received (I'll take a wild guess here and suggest Hawtree is a far better "designer" than TW, however.).

The thing about Trump is this ... he puts his money (or money he has access to) where his mouth is. In addition to the Scotland course, his US properties are well received as well (I know a fair number of golfers who have played at his various courses). His course near Pine Valley in NJ certainly is NOT Pine Valley (although Trump himself has a different opinion), but a whole lot more people now have access to a course in the fabled "pine belt". That's certainly not a bad thing for golf.
thumbsup

I'm not a Trump fan in almost too many ways to count...  but hard to criticize the quality in which he's tackled the golf world (except to criticize the price to access that quality in a lot of cases).  Even Gil Hanse commented on how working with Trump brought out his very best and a vision for Doral beyond what even he thought was possible.  And the improvements to the what was the sadly deteriorating Doral resort before Trump's arrival are staggering.

And I could care less if Tiger goes the Palmer/Player route of others designing courses under their names, as opposed to Nicklaus' "supposed" hands on approach (which isn't near as hands on as people seem to believe). What matters is the RESULTS.  

But sheesh... why all the hand wringing over somebody making a "business decision" to involve Trump/Woods in the golf project. Seems to me, In the world of hospitality, the name TRUMP generates a tremendous amount of interest and visibility, and in the world of golf no name draws interest more than TIGER.   If that's the formula that creates the most VALUE to the owners, investors, operators of this new project... then I say GREAT... bring it on.


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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:22 pm

GPB wrote:I just wonder how much work Tiger does in course design.

I imagine that he is just a figurehead designer and really does not get into the Nuts and bolts of design.

More like lets put a bunker here...and a two tier green there, and a unreachable par 5 early in the back nine.

I don't see him getting too involved with drainage, and irrigation, and agronomy, and all the other details that the real designers get into.
So you're saying he's just like Arnold Palmer and Gary Player? Seems like two pretty good guys to emulate in the golf course design business if you ask me.

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:24 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:I don't suppose Trump gives a monkey's how some project in the Emirates does so long as he gets a fee up front. He'll likely be dead by the time the project opens.
Still don't know if Woods had to repay any of the lucre he got for his last failed Gulf project.
My guess is Trump does give a "monkey" about how the project does after it's built. From my understanding... Trump Golf is going to be the ongoing operating entity. No?

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:25 pm

Robo

Do you know if Trump has ever made a profit from any of his golf activities?

His model seems to have been buy the place and then spend 100's of millions, and then we never hear if he actually makes any money. It would seem the trump model of course owner "success" may not be all that repeatable, especially for the smaller clubs.
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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:34 pm

Would it matter Mac? How many football teams make profit?

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:34 pm

McLaren wrote:Robo

Do you know if Trump has ever made a profit from any of his golf activities?

His model seems to have been buy the place and then spend 100's of millions, and then we never hear if he actually makes any money.  It would seem the trump model of course owner "success" may not be all that repeatable, especially for the smaller clubs.
I wouldn't have a clue if Trump has ever made a profit on them or not... but so far at least,  unlike his casino businesses...  in golf it appears as though he's found some secret whereby he spends millions, resulting in a quality product, while avoiding a bankruptcy every couple of months/years.


Last edited by robopz on Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by McLaren Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:36 pm

It would matter as it is often said that trump is good for the game. But if his courses can only be played by those with large wealth, and subsidized by trump at the same time, then what success has really be achieved?

at least if he made a profit or broke even it could be said he had some sort of model for others to follow.
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Post by GPB Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:38 pm

robopz wrote:
GPB wrote:I just wonder how much work Tiger does in course design.

I imagine that he is just a figurehead designer and really does not get into the Nuts and bolts of design.

More like lets put a bunker here...and a two tier green there, and a unreachable par 5 early in the back nine.

I don't see him getting too involved with drainage, and irrigation, and agronomy, and all the other details that the real designers get into.
So you're saying he's just like Arnold Palmer and Gary Player?   Seems like two pretty good guys to emulate in the golf course design business if you ask me.


Wow, Why get so defensive?  I was just talking about Woods, and not Palmer and Player (or even Nicklaus).  You are getting as bad at deflection as the others of the TWLFC.

I said he was going to be a figurehead designer and probably not get down to the nuts and bolts of design work.

I also find amusing that one particular blogger who has nothing but bad things to say about Donald Trump and the cost of his courses is now trumpeting (pun intended) the fact the fact that he is working on a course for Trump.  Mega hypocrite.

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Post by super_realist Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:42 pm

I don't think anyone has "trumpeted" 9C working with Trump.


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Post by kwinigolfer Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:42 pm

robo,
I am totally prejudiced as far as Trump is concerned - such an obvious racist, right-wing sh1thead; just about as nasty an individual that ever soils our TV screens. Thankfully never mine unless his hair pops up on the news.
I hope the very worst for him but imagine all his projects follow the same mantra. Can't remember the exact quote now but along the lines of, "If I owe the bank $1M it's my problem. If I owe them $100M it's their problem." Wonder how that translates in Dubai?

Imagine he got out of his latest Atlantic City bankruptcy scot(sorry s_r)-free - plenty more to come I should think.

Would be nice to see him die destitute.

The World's Worst Man.
EDIT: Tied with Dick Cheney . . . . . .

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:55 pm

McLaren wrote:It would matter as it is often said that trump is good for the game.  But if his courses can only be played by those with large wealth, and subsidized by trump at the same time, then what success has really be achieved?

at least if he made a profit or broke even it could be said he had some sort of model for others to follow.
My guess is he has to be making a profit somehow or somewhere because Trump doesn't strike me as they type to keep throwing good money after bad. Instead he just goes bankrupt and moves on.

From an outsider looking in... it appears to me Trump has found a way to create "intangible value" in his golf properties that might far surpasses any 'brick & mortar' appraisal of the properties themselves.

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:59 pm

GPB... not being defensive, just stating relevant parallels of other names that have created successful golf course design businesses... Some have chosen hands on, some the figurehead, and others anywhere in between.

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 5:00 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:robo,
I am totally prejudiced as far as Trump is concerned
Wow... Really? I hadn't noticed... Very Happy

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Post by GPB Wed 10 Dec 2014, 5:08 pm

robopz wrote:GPB... not being defensive, just stating relevant parallels of other names that have created successful golf course design businesses... Some have chosen hands on, some the figurehead, and others anywhere in between.

Ok, whatever  Rolling Eyes

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Post by robopz Wed 10 Dec 2014, 5:31 pm

GPB wrote:
robopz wrote:GPB... not being defensive, just stating relevant parallels of other names that have created successful golf course design businesses... Some have chosen hands on, some the figurehead, and others anywhere in between.

Ok, whatever  Rolling Eyes
Wouldn't this be easier if you'd simply respond with your usual tirade against everything Tiger Woods does or has ever been associated with (like you have about TW's course design in the past and like Kwini just did with Trump)... and then I could have responded the same way I did to Kwini..... Wow... Really? I hadn't noticed...  Very Happy

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Post by pedro Wed 10 Dec 2014, 5:38 pm

What's better:
a) No golf courses being build, or
b) Something else
.?

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