England senior training squad and Saxons announcement

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Just to keep it in one place at the top of its own thread.

Forwards

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)  

Backs

Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Only Eastmond and Devoto play that sort of role looked for at 12 though, Bit too soon for Devoto as he's obviously a fair distance from a regular starter as Bath are overloaded there. Slade could be that person but hasn't played much at 12 if at all. Leaves a choice from Twelvetrees, Eastmond or Farrell if Lancaster continues the same plan?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saxons have Slade MFC but there'll be someone dropping out of the 1st team squad no doubt.

I know, but Slade has been mostly playing centre this season, and there were strong rumours that the saxons were going to line up with him and Burgess in there. On the four fly-halves in the main set-up, I suspect Lancaster wants to see both Myler and Cipriani up close in training, there is after all a very strong chance that Ford and Farrell are going to go to the WC as 1 and 2, which leaves Cipriani and Myler battling it out for the remaining spot.

Yup, Slade looks really classy. He could play across any of 10/12/13 with his skill set. Saxons is probably the right place for him currently though.

lostinwales wrote:re: 4 fh's I wonder if there are any doubts about anyone's fitness or (horror) Farrell is being considered for center instead..

I suspect Cipriani was picked to help keep him in England. I'd like to see him get some game time though, perhaps a start against Italy? Although we now need as settled a squad as possible (bearing in mind GF has only played 2 games!). Hence I think that's why all the Lions have come straight back in.

I'm also glad to see Eastmond has been retained in the seniors along with Joseph. I can see both of those guys lining up opposite Burrell/Barritt in training and giving the coaching team something to think about.

Chjw131 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:re: 4 fh's I wonder if there are any doubts about anyone's fitness or (horror) Farrell is being considered for center instead..

I suspect Cipriani was picked to help keep him in England. I'd like to see him get some game time though, perhaps a start against Italy? Although we now need as settled a squad as possible (bearing in mind GF has only played 2 games!). Hence I think that's why all the Lions have come straight back in.

I didn't half play well though

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:re: 4 fh's I wonder if there are any doubts about anyone's fitness or (horror) Farrell is being considered for center instead..

I suspect Cipriani was picked to help keep him in England. I'd like to see him get some game time though, perhaps a start against Italy? Although we now need as settled a squad as possible (bearing in mind GF has only played 2 games!). Hence I think that's why all the Lions have come straight back in.

I didn't half play well though

Mate you were awesome. You'd lost some weight for the role as well no?!

ha ha I wish mate...the Christmas turkey is struggling to come off....

Too bad you gotta get old stallion.....

Gatgob says he is expecting England to kick a bit just like the nzers. If that's what it takes to win then why not? After all the object of the game is to score more points than the other team .

englandglory4ever wrote:Gatgob says he is expecting England to kick a bit just like the nzers. If that's what it takes to win then why not? After all the object of the game is to score more points than the other team .

Gatland?

englandglory4ever wrote:Gatgob says he is expecting England to kick a bit just like the nzers. If that's what it takes to win then why not? After all the object of the game is to score more points than the other team .

I'm glad he's started already. I look forward to him highlighting Dylan Hartley's throwing again or his temperament or his propensity for peanuts. Either way it won't help him.

I'd like to see NZ's average possession stats for the last 2 years, i'd wager they're no more than 40%.

I don't mind the odd bit of kicking...but it has to be effective.

Theres no point kicking the leather off the thing just to give them possession in dangerous areas to run it straight back at us.

And I don't think our kicking has been all that effective.

Reading the article in the Telegraph as well as a few other papers I think it is pretty clear that he is challenging englands coaches to select and exciting running backline rather than Farrell-esq kick it first style.

Watching Bath this season, england have the players to some great rugby. It seems like a good number of Englishmen on here wish for Lancastr to do the same as Gatland.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't mind the odd bit of kicking...but it has to be effective.

Theres no point kicking the leather off the thing just to give them possession in dangerous areas to run it straight back at us.

And I don't think our kicking has been all that effective.  

That's the nub of it for sure! Our kicking hasn't been great having said that Ford is a super kicker from hand. What we don't want to do is give the likes of North, Falateau, Cuthbert etc to run it back at pace.

maestegmafia wrote:Reading the article in the Telegraph as well as a few other papers I think it is pretty clear that he is challenging englands coaches to select and exciting running backline rather than Farrell-esq kick it first style.

Watching Bath this season, england have the players to some great rugby. It seems like a good number of Englishmen on here wish for Lancastr to do the same as Gatland.

Balls to him. We'll revert to a 10 man kicking game and enjoy it....

I dont mind seeing Cuthbert trying to turn and catch the ball if there is plenty of pressure on him. Could be funny if done right

i dont think anyone falls for kiwi mindgames any more do they? especially when they are wearing a wales shirt.

gatland clearly doesnt want the contest to be determined by set-pieces as wales will come off second best there. hence why he wants england to play ball in hand, and risk getting isolated, turned over, and concede penalites that 1/2 can kick all day long from the half way line.

if we pick ford, burrell and jj i do hope we run everything back, as i think we will rip shreds out of the welsh defense. if we pick farrell, we need to stick to only "playing" in the right areas of the pitch, and kick really well ball from hand.

One of the great things about the bath back line is that the Ford, Eastmond, Joseph axis has been playing together along time now and they understand each others games. With England we have been fannying around so long putting 12's at outside centre as a stop gap measure until tuilagi gets back that we still haven't got a funking clue and Tuilagi is still injured. If we play barrit or burrell at 13 we have wasted our last tournament before the world cup. In my eyes there is only one option avliable to us and that is to select people in position, meaning Joseph at 13 and don't drop him until he feels comfortable, then Eastmond, burrell or barrit at 12. Get rid of twelvetrees, hes average at best and a flipping liability at worst.

I hope you pick Ford, Burrell and Joseph because they are very good players, I hope Cipriani is on the bench too. They play the rugby I want to watch.

It may encourage us to play more exciting rugby if you guys do...

100% agree.

ford, eastmond, watson and may, and any of those you mention at 12, would be far lower-risk than any of the other untried combinations, because the 4 of them have played so much together that their communication in attack and defense will be very good.

the reason we lost against france last year, and hence failed to win a GS, was terrible communication between players all out of position in the last 15 minutes and our defense was in utter disarray.

but sadly my gut tells me that it will be ford +tackler1+tackler2, with farrell to come on as tackler1/2nd kicker. and the ball will only get to may/watson if they catch an up and under!

So could we see a Saxons like this?

1 Waller
2 LCD
3 Brookes
4 Garvey
5 Itoje
6 Croft
7 Kvesic
8 Ewers

9 Lee Dickson
10 Cipriani (from seniors...give him a game)
11 Yarde
12 Slade
13 Burgess
14 Wade
15 Daly

maestegmafia wrote:I hope you pick Ford, Burrell and Joseph because they are very good players, I hope Cipriani is on the bench too. They play the rugby I want to watch.

It may encourage us to play more exciting rugby if you guys do...

it will be exciting. because if england pick that attacking line, if i were gatland i would kick the ball infield deep and hope that england try to run it out. wales back row are excellent tacklers and gatland will clearly hope to win turnovers/penalties that way which would be a sensible tactic given his team.

i have been really impressed with 1/2P's attacking rugby at toulon. i hope gatland uses him as an attacking back, and not just place kicker and last ditch heroic tackler.

i'm really looking forwards to the game. is going to be brutal

I still maintain id love to see:

9 Care
10 Ford
11 May
12 Burrell (Id even happily consider Barritt here if it was this backline)
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

Id even accept Barritt at 12...his limitations wouldn't be an issue with those players around him...and indeed his basics would be enhanced as he would be the defensive lynchpin with lots of ability around him. He's also a very good crash baller and battler.

Is Itoje going to be a 2nd row or a back row.
England U20s used him in the engine room but Sarries cameos have all been back row havent they?

Given that there are only three locks in the Saxons (I think) and two of them are Garvey and Itoje, I'm guessing he's in as a lock.

propdavid_london wrote:Is Itoje going to be a 2nd row or a back row.
England U20s used him in the engine room but Sarries cameos have all been back row havent they?

He's come on a couple of times recently for Sarries in the SR and with Botha now gone I think they see him long-term there. The lad is seriously high-quality and i'd certainly like to see him in the SR alongside Day for some experience.

A Saxons pack of 1. M Mullan 2. R Webber 3. K Brookes 4. M Itoje 5. C Day 6. M Garvey 7. M Kvesic 8. T Waldrom/D Ewers is a formidable proposition.

I would think Barritt will play 12 against Wales, to counter Roberts, with Joseph or Burrell at 13. Whoever Wales play at 13, Jonathan Davies or the very in form Scott Williams, it will be an interesting midfield tussle. Assuming both teams want to play through the backs.

Interesting that Gatland expects England to play a kicking game...that has been Wales' way of playing for a while now. Kick infield for territory and chase hard to force turnovers or win penalties. That's how they won in 2013 - 1/2p kicked 6 penalties.

To be fair who cares about what gats says, we need to pick players to match our own style of play and forget about the opposition and whether they have big centres etc. Its always the same before wales and france we need to negate bastereaud and roberts, before south africa we need to arm wrestle their huge pack, then we get drawn into what the opposition want. Lancs says he wants expansive rugby, in which case pick the backline to do that and tell em to play.

actually i do think that sometimes you need to adapt your style of play, and hence your selection, if there are particular areas that your opponents are weak or dangerous.

eg, don't kick the ball deep vs NZ or Aus and give them a free run at a broken up field

eg, dont ever play Ireland with a lineout that is anything other than perfect, or sexton will kick all day long and they will disrupt/turnover lineout ball

eg, always play your absolute best scrummaging front row (couldnt care if they are useless in open play) against wales, especially at MS, or the ref will be conned into pinging you and 1/2P will rack up 21 points before they even try to run the ball

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't mind the odd bit of kicking...but it has to be effective.

Theres no point kicking the leather off the thing just to give them possession in dangerous areas to run it straight back at us.

And I don't think our kicking has been all that effective.

But when did you last see Wales counter attack from catching kicks?

TJ - North can be lethal running the ball back from kicks. OK it wasn't Wales, but he was excellent for the Lions

GeordieFalcon wrote:I don't mind the odd bit of kicking...but it has to be effective.
 

George Ford is a much better tactical kicker than OF. Wish I could say the same about from the tee.

What games are the Saxons actually playing?

As often happens, I am more keen to see some of the Saxons combos playing than those in the full England squad.

It will be interesting to see what approach Lancaster takes with selection. he has tended to favour asking players to fit in with a general England gameplan. This hasn't always worked in favour of those who look better when they are playing to their strengths.

There are now quite a few players in the full list named yesterday who don't tick all the boxes - including the likes of Care, Ashton, Croft, Easter and Cipriani - so we'll see whether Lancaster is prepared to tweak the gameplan to get the best from them or if he'll prefer to stick with what he's been doing.

George Carlin wrote:What games are the Saxons actually playing?

As often happens, I am more keen to see some of the Saxons combos playing than those in the full England squad.

Only the one against the Wolfhounds I think.

No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

yappysnap wrote:No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

Wales and France historically do not run an "A" team. We usually squeeze in a game against Scotland or Italy as well - but any overlap of 6Ns,  Saxons and AP would give the clubs complete kittens.


Edited:

Gosh some people have no sense of humour, choosing to spend their entire day trawling threads they have nothing to contribute to, just so they can find offence.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

Wales and France historically do not run an "A" team. We usually squeeze in a game against Scotland or Italy as well - but any overlap of 6Ns,  Saxons and AP would give the clubs complete kittens. Heck the squads selected for AP games would start to look like Welsh Regional selections where half the matches contain no star names

Why do you bother???

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

Wales and France historically do not run an "A" team. We usually squeeze in a game against Scotland or Italy as well - but any overlap of 6Ns,  Saxons and AP would give the clubs complete kittens.


Edited:

Gosh some people have no sense of humour, choosing to spend their entire day trawling threads they have nothing to contribute to, just so they can find offence.

I work with a lot of Irish guys, broad spoken Irish with Gaelic names I have trouble getting my tongue around; surprising rugby mad ( well they are all just, mad ) they don't take offence at me frequently telling them that nicking fences is illegal in this country. Some nationalities have a broad introspective sense of humour; some seem to have been awol when it was handed out and of course we have the ......................................................Americans, if it doesn't hit you in the face or you have to think for a second, they just look blank.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

Wales and France historically do not run an "A" team. We usually squeeze in a game against Scotland or Italy as well - but any overlap of 6Ns,  Saxons and AP would give the clubs complete kittens.


Edited:

Gosh some people have no sense of humour, choosing to spend their entire day trawling threads they have nothing to contribute to, just so they can find offence.

Weren't the Welsh supposed to be restarting their A team this January? Have they scrapped it already? Not enough decent players to fill it? (Apparantly Tomas Francis is their 4th choice tighthead according to a poster on another thread, he's as Welsh as Waldrum is English and he's only played in 12 Premeirship games).

It is sad that there can't be a full Saxons tournament. I get the whole AP thing but if, once the 6N began the seniors and Saxons were slimmed down a bit then that might help. It might also encourage teams like Leicester to play some of their bloody youngsters.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:No Scotland this year?

Is a shame it isn't a proper tournament as a one off seems fairly pointless to me

Wales and France historically do not run an "A" team. We usually squeeze in a game against Scotland or Italy as well - but any overlap of 6Ns,  Saxons and AP would give the clubs complete kittens.

Weren't the Welsh supposed to be restarting their A team this January?  Have they scrapped it already? Not enough decent players to fill it? (Apparantly Tomas Francis is their 4th choice tighthead according to a poster on another thread, he's as Welsh as Waldrum is English and he's only played in 12 Premeirship games).

I know I read about them considering re-forming an A team. However cost was mentioned.