Ireland v England - Match Thread

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Feb - 14:23

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 9 Rating10

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 9 Rating10

Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

by lostinwales Mon 23 Feb - 14:00

GunsGerms wrote:The TMO, Shaun Veldsman, for the Ireland v England game was stabbed in SA on Saturday after a super 15 game.

http://www.the42.ie/tmo-ireland-england-stabbed-1954729-Feb2015/

Well that kind of puts things into perspective. Lets hope he recovers OK.

by GunsGerms Mon 23 Feb - 14:02

Agreed.

by SecretFly Mon 23 Feb - 14:34

That is one crude heartless 'funny' f**k on the comments section below that article:

" His involvement is in doubt!!! Ha ha. Although…. he was stabbed in the Lung and not the eyes, yea he should be fine."

I don't know sometimes. Sometimes I feel the human race wants to willingly descend into anarchy and extinction. I think it's a final evolutionary programming that we try and try to avoid but there is no way to avoid it. It's coming to a future near you.

But meanwhile it would seem SA is one seriously dangerous country to live in - rich or poor.

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 23 Feb - 14:44

GunsGerms wrote:He was only in Ireland a few years as far as I know. He was born in England.

Even less than that. He was still living in England and going to school in England when his dad was defense coach for eddie o'sullivan. The family would come over at weekends, midterm, summer when the dad was still working with the Ireland team and he cheered on the team that his dad was involved in.

He seems to be a brave lad, willing to take a chance and able to control a game. Can he handle pressure (and with the RWC in England there will be an unbelievable amount of pressure and focus on the young man). I hope he can. In the medium to long term though I worry about him surviving at Test level due to the physicality. Not just Ford, but all 'normal' sized people playing rugby have to take a ridiculous amount of wear and tear.

by GunsGerms Mon 23 Feb - 14:50

Yeah thats true. Presumably he learned a thing or two from Stringer about how to punch above your weight. Stringers tackle on Lomu springs to mind.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRlEOaCrcko

by lostinwales Mon 23 Feb - 14:52

Definitely in the past Farrell had a physical robustness which kept him available for selection.

What I would say from evidence so far is that Ford isnt going to stop people in their tracks with a super heavy tackle but he is good technically, and he does make his tackles.

by GunsGerms Mon 23 Feb - 14:55

lostinwales wrote:Definitely in the past Farrell had a physical robustness which kept him available for selection.

What I would say from evidence so far is that Ford isnt going to stop people in their tracks with a super heavy tackle but he is good technically, and he does make his tackles.

Could a 9, 10 axis of Ford and Youngs be a potential revolving door for Ireland to direct some traffic through?

Schmidt does like to have a fairly narrow attack at times.

by lostinwales Mon 23 Feb - 15:06

Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some mileage in it but it might work against you too.

by GunsGerms Mon 23 Feb - 15:07

lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

by TightHEAD Mon 23 Feb - 15:18

GunsGerms wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

Their size doesn't really matter both can tackle, ok they're not going to smash you like Wilkinson could but they are still better than May on the wing, Ford does rip the ball well for a guy his size compared to some Orcs.

by dummy_half Mon 23 Feb - 15:19

GunsGerms wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

And that's why we need Robshaw's work rate and tackling ability making sure that Youngs and Ford are not required to make too many one-on-one tackles on rampaging forwards. Good thing we actually have 3 Robshaw clones on the pitch at any one time (well, how else does he cover so much ground?).

I will admit that Ireland seem to have an advantage in the tackling ability of their half backs, and both are definitely a bit bigger and stronger than their English counterparts. However, I would also reckon Billy V is the biggest and strongest carrier on the pitch, so they are going to have their hands full as well.

Anyway, am seriously looking forward to Sunday - could be a cracking match.

by SecretFly Mon 23 Feb - 15:22

dummy_half wrote:

Anyway, am seriously looking forward to Sunday - could be a cracking match.

I'm not. It's going to be torture all the way - good game or bad game.

I'll enjoy Saturday though.

by the-goon Mon 23 Feb - 15:30

SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:

Anyway, am seriously looking forward to Sunday - could be a cracking match.

I'm not. It's going to be torture all the way - good game or bad game.

I'll enjoy Saturday though.

Agreed, it will be the longest and most nerve wrecking 80min of the weekend. I also would be surprised if either team scores more than 20 points.

by fa0019 Mon 23 Feb - 15:35

I really don't see the fuss about Billy Vunipola. He carries yes but hardly ever makes ground.
Take the Wales match. According to ESPN he made 18 metres in 14 carries. Not exactly what I would call prolific... and everyone was raving about him.

Never see him break tackles like an old backrow forward... more likely resembles a prop on the charge. First contact you need line speed not Jabba the hut.
I'm sure he's in decent nick for a standard guy but for an elite athlete its a little poor. If he was in AB colours they would hire Richard Loe wielding a club as his personal PT instructor to get him into shape. He's been in the England setup for what 2 seasons now, its a little amateur. You don't even see rolls like that on Adam Jones now. To say its genetic is lame, how many tongan kiwi's or samoan kiwis in the AB squad look that poor? Even their front row forwards look like they're baddies in a 300 type movie.

Given he nearly always gets subbed on 80 mins he has to get into better condition... do that and I think he will become a far better player.... happened to Morgan, who is the better player no doubt.

by GunsGerms Mon 23 Feb - 15:37

fa0019 wrote:I really don't see the fuss about Billy Vunipola. He carries yes but hardly ever makes ground.
Take the Wales match. According to ESPN he made 18 metres in 14 carries. Not exactly what I would call prolific... and everyone was raving about him.

Never see him break tackles like an old backrow forward... more likely resembles a prop on the charge. First contact you need line speed not Jabba the hut.
I'm sure he's in decent nick for a standard guy but for an elite athlete its a little poor. If he was in AB colours they would hire Richard Loe wielding a club as his personal PT instructor to get him into shape. He's been in the England setup for what 2 seasons now, its a little amateur. You don't even see rolls like that on Adam Jones now. To say its genetic is lame, how many tongan kiwi's or samoan kiwis in the AB squad look that poor? Even their front row forwards look like they're baddies in a 300 type movie.

Given he nearly always gets subbed on 80 mins he has to get into better condition... do that and I think he will become a far better player.... happened to Morgan, who is the better player no doubt.

Wales due to their size and the tackling abilities of Warburton and Lydiate are very good a stopping big barreling guys. I wouldnt dismiss vunapola because he didnt get many yards v Wales. They are the best in the six nations at defending the big guys IMO.

I take your point re the conditioning of some of the England guys though. Haskell is oversized and Vunapola and Morgan are overweight.

by lostinwales Mon 23 Feb - 15:42

And BV is playing a full 80 mins and has a decent workrate. Last year he was always subbed at 60. Does he offer more than Easter at the moment is a good question, but in the absence of Morgan these two are our best options

by fa0019 Mon 23 Feb - 15:47

probably is the best option I agree and he's playing 80mins this year... albeit because the next best guy is 36. But there is too much hype for me and you have to wonder about his work ethic if he remains in such bad shape. Props need size, they need to be 120kg.... backrow forwards shouldn't be that size unless they have the carrying prowess of Willem Alberts and lets be honest, that ain't a fair comparison.

I know he was always a big lad and when he first got his england callup he was 130kg etc (i.e. he's shed a bit). But his line speed is very poor and he doesn't break tackles. I'd say his brother is actually a better carrier.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 23 Feb - 16:02

I did enjoy the huge tackle Ben Youngs made on Roberts during the 2nd half which was on par with Henson's on Tait a few years back!

Re Vunipola's carrying, Wales did excellently taking him low. During the 2nd half it was noticable that England started to look for offloads and quick recycling off the floor and looked much better for it. I would think if Ireland go higher Vunipola will make much greater yeards.

by beshocked Mon 23 Feb - 17:42

Billy did not have his best game against Wales. He did look lethargic as you said fa0019.

He didn't seem to run at pace with ball in hand. He seemed to slow down as he went into contact which obviously makes him an easier target.

Though saying that he was much better vs Italy. Admittedly Italy aren't exactly the strongest side.

by The Great Aukster Mon 23 Feb - 18:03

Have England had a world class 8 since Dayglo? Guys like Morgan, Billy V and Easter are OK but not in the same league as the Reids, Vermeullens and Parisses of this world.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 23 Feb - 18:17

beshocked wrote:Billy did not have his best game against Wales. He did look lethargic as you said fa0019.

He didn't seem to run at pace with ball in hand. He seemed to slow down as he went into contact which obviously makes him an easier target.

Though saying that he was much better vs Italy. Admittedly Italy aren't exactly the strongest side.

Would agree with that, given he had got his shirt back, albeit due to Morgans injury I really expected a lot more from him against us.

by nathan Mon 23 Feb - 18:27

GunsGerms wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

Didn't Wales try that with Roberts?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Feb - 18:28

England had a clear tactic against Wales to avoid giving their opponents chances to turnover by running too far. BillyV was used primarily to drive up slow ball. He was used in this way 3 times in the phases prior to JJs try. Also he put in a defensive shift - 14 tackles made and zero missed.

The time to judge Billy's career is not when he is 22 and younger than Dayglo was when first capped.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 23 Feb - 18:31

nathan wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

Didn't Wales try that with Roberts?

i wonder how many minutes we will actually see from SOB and Healy?

by majesticimperialman Mon 23 Feb - 18:41

bedfordwelsh wrote:
beshocked wrote:Billy did not have his best game against Wales. He did look lethargic as you said fa0019.

He didn't seem to run at pace with ball in hand. He seemed to slow down as he went into contact which obviously makes him an easier target.

Though saying that he was much better vs Italy. Admittedly Italy aren't exactly the strongest side.

Would agree with that, given he had got his shirt back, albeit due to Morgans injury I really expected a lot more from him against us.

I think if Morgan was fit you mint see more from Billy V. But since Morgan is injured who is their to threaten him this time?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 23 Feb - 18:44

The Great Aukster wrote:Have England had a world class 8 since Dayglo? Guys like Morgan, Billy V and Easter are OK but not in the same league as the Reids, Vermeullens and Parisses of this world.

Ben Morgan looks like he could be as good as those mentioned. He certainly has the brain, and the bulk.

by doctor_grey Mon 23 Feb - 21:58

SecretFly wrote:I don't know sometimes. Sometimes I feel the human race wants to willingly descend into anarchy and extinction. I think it's a final evolutionary programming that we try and try to avoid but there is no way to avoid it. It's coming to a future near you.

I wonder how we made it this far, mate. Sometimes I truly wonder.
Aren't we all supposed to believe in hope?

I'd rather think about Rugby.

by doctor_grey Mon 23 Feb - 22:05

Jeez,
wtf is that morose crap all about?
wtf does that have to do with Ireland-England?

Let's get this back where it belongs:
If England win it is because of the PRL plan to take over the world.
If Ireland win, it is a Celtic plot to take over the world.
If it is a draw, I blame Rupert Murdoch:

I feel better now.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 23 Feb - 22:59

Can't believe it took me so long to search YouTube for "Joe Marler Funny". Only did so because he topped this list.

https://figurativepocket.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/six-nations-players-rankedaccording-to-comedic-value/

Like it when an interviewer asks "The ball was in play for 46 minutes. Did it seem like that?" He replies "It seemed like 80. I think it seemed like we played for 80 minutes".

by TheRugbyMaster Mon 23 Feb - 23:21

The Great Aukster wrote:Have England had a world class 8 since Dayglo? Guys like Morgan, Billy V and Easter are OK but not in the same league as the Reids, Vermeullens and Parisses of this world.

It's a different style of game across the team. Morgan and BV might be no Kieran Read or what have you, but who wouldn't want England's pack? They can control and choke a game. It's about balance and combinations. England choose a heavy weight bludgeon of a pack and play accordingly. NZ will try and move you around with their more lightweight and nimble athletes, a real battle of styles. Two of the most complete teams in the world with no glaring weakness within their particular approach. Ireland are building into this kind of unit too, with a distinctive style of their own.

Good times for the game, bring on this world cup because it's shaping as the best yet.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 Feb - 8:08

TheRugbyMaster wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Have England had a world class 8 since Dayglo? Guys like Morgan, Billy V and Easter are OK but not in the same league as the Reids, Vermeullens and Parisses of this world.

It's a different style of game across the team. Morgan and BV might be no Kieran Read or what have you, but who wouldn't want England's pack? They can control and choke a game. It's about balance and combinations. England choose a heavy weight bludgeon of a pack and play accordingly. NZ will try and move you around with their more lightweight and nimble athletes, a real battle of styles. Two of the most complete teams in the world with no glaring weakness within their particular approach. Ireland are building into this kind of unit too, with a distinctive style of their own.

Good times for the game, bring on this world cup because it's shaping as the best yet.

I'd say that Englands pack is a lot more lightweight than heavy given our 1st choice.

by yappysnap Tue 24 Feb - 8:11

Jesus I've just been reading that Alex Goode is set to start against Ireland as Brown is injured. There goes that game then.

Farrell snr just couldn't wait to get a few Sarries players in the backline to perform his kicking strategy now Ford won't.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 Feb - 8:16

Goode was excellent against Ireland a couple of years back and his game would suit what I think we're all expecting from Ireland. May also help to address the weakness against Wales with lack of other kicking options. He would have been my choice tbh.

by Poorfour Tue 24 Feb - 9:11

Rugby Fan wrote:Can't believe it took me so long to search YouTube for "Joe Marler Funny". Only did so because he topped this list.

https://figurativepocket.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/six-nations-players-rankedaccording-to-comedic-value/

Like it when an interviewer asks "The ball was in play for 46 minutes. Did it seem like that?" He replies "It seemed like 80. I think it seemed like we played for 80 minutes".

Marler's video blogs for England have been a consistent source of amusement over the last few years. There's a particularly good one where you discover part way through the interview that he's wearing boxing gloves. There's something about the combination of his childlike expression in that huge prop's body and beard, coupled with an obvious fondness for practical jokes - all hiding a mind ruthless enough to completely skewer dumb questions.

by GunsGerms Tue 24 Feb - 9:20

yappysnap wrote:Jesus I've just been reading that Alex Goode is set to start against Ireland as Brown is injured. There goes that game then.

Farrell snr just couldn't wait to get a few Sarries players in the backline to perform his kicking strategy now Ford won't.

Wahoooooooooooooo, Goode. Game on.

by GunsGerms Tue 24 Feb - 9:32

LondonTiger wrote:
nathan wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Ford makes his tackles. Never heard of big complaints about Young's defense and then you have the back row on one side and Burrell on the other. There may be some millage in it but it might work against you too.

Yes they defend well. All Im saying is they are both quite small and guys like SOB and Healy are really hard to cut down.

Didn't Wales try that with Roberts?

i wonder how many minutes we will actually see from SOB and Healy?

SOB probably 70-80. Healy about 20-30 Id say.

by captain carrantuohil Tue 24 Feb - 9:40

I see that the medium-range weather forecast isn't that marvellous for Dub. A fair bit of rain in amongst the odd second of sun and a wind that could play havoc with pretty passing and the high ball.

Last time in Dublin, England played the miserable conditions more intelligently than Ireland and won as a consequence. Can't help thinking that shoite weather might be more in the favour of this Irish side. Greater experience, a back three that I'd much rather see under the high ball, no matter whether Brown or Goode starts at 15 for England, and a group from 9-13 that won't be looking to chuck it around as much anyway (I omit the wings deliberately; don't think that any of the four on display are going to be seen much as an attacking force).

More I think about it, more Ireland look like a decent betting proposition on Sunday. Might also go for a spread bet of somewhere below 40 total points for the game - I really doubt that this is going to be pretty.

by TightHEAD Tue 24 Feb - 9:50

Goode starting might not be a bad thing, we will need to keep them pinned back from time to time and Goode's boot will do that.

by TightHEAD Tue 24 Feb - 9:51

On more important issues will the Roof be open or closed? Whistle

by Nachos Jones Tue 24 Feb - 10:25

TightHEAD wrote:Goode starting might not be a bad thing, we will need to keep them pinned back from time to time and Goode's boot will do that.

I think Goode gets a lot of negative publicity, I actually think that he is a very good 15 and brings other things to the field that Brown doesn't, eg a stronger boot that Brown.

I am not sure if he really will weaken the England side as much as many seem to think (or hope) he will.

by Stewie15 Tue 24 Feb - 10:29

TightHEAD wrote:On more important issues will the Roof be open or closed?

Just like the stadium, the roofs not finished yet...

by BamBam Tue 24 Feb - 10:32

Nachos Jones wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Goode starting might not be a bad thing, we will need to keep them pinned back from time to time and Goode's boot will do that.

I think Goode gets a lot of negative publicity, I actually think that he is a very good 15 and brings other things to the field that Brown doesn't, eg a stronger boot that Brown.

I am not sure if he really will weaken the England side as much as many seem to think (or hope) he will.

I think you're underrating Brown's kicking, he's got a massive boot on him, and also offers the left footed option to counter Ford's right. Goode may be slightly more accurate but Brown kicks it a mile

But you have to catch it to be able to kick it, and Goode against the Irish back 3 in the high ball contest worries me.

Not forgetting the catch, jink past no one, get smashed thing he regularly does

by beshocked Tue 24 Feb - 10:37

Londontiger you do make a good point - particular in the tackle count both the Vunipola bros are decent in that area.

Yappysnap Farrell Sr is not a Saracens coach any more - He's England's problem now!

I like Goode - people know that - his lack of pace and attacking threat at international level is a problem though. Though saying that his kicking is generally good and under the high ball he's been good in recent matches.

If Goode does play I want to see the playmaking that he shows for Saracens (something he's not done for England, a criticism I throw at Twelvetrees too, though Twelvetrees did show some of it vs Italy).

by yappysnap Tue 24 Feb - 10:38

I'm surprised they didn't go with Watson, as he's already playing well for England.

Perhaps they didn't like the look of the replacement wings.

by yappysnap Tue 24 Feb - 10:40

If Goode can bring his Sarries game then he'll be very... Useful...

by Nachos Jones Tue 24 Feb - 10:45

I am not underestimating Browns' abilities and do see him as being a big loss for England. I just don't see Goode being as bad as many seem to think he is.

I agree that maybe dropping Watson to 15 may have been a decent option but I still feel that Goode is the next best 15 in England.

by lostinwales Tue 24 Feb - 10:50

With a horses for courses approach Goode might be a decent fit for Ireland, particularly if they are playing the narrow tactical kicking game.

by king_carlos Tue 24 Feb - 14:07

Nachos Jones wrote:I am not underestimating Browns' abilities and do see him as being a big loss for England. I just don't see Goode being as bad as many seem to think he is.

I agree that maybe dropping Watson to 15 may have been a decent option but I still feel that Goode is the next best 15 in England.

I don't think many believe him as bad as the volume of posts would suggest NJ.

For myself I find it a bit of a disappointing selection because I'm finally starting to feel that we are looking at back three players with the raw attributes needed to be able to threaten an international defence - pace, power, quick feet, pace...

That's where Goode will feel like a step backwards to many fans. Whilst he definitely has his attributes, ones which could be vital in Dublin too, he is lacking in that game breaking ability which many have been wanting for so long and finally thought we were seeing.

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb - 14:14

king_carlos wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:I am not underestimating Browns' abilities and do see him as being a big loss for England. I just don't see Goode being as bad as many seem to think he is.

I agree that maybe dropping Watson to 15 may have been a decent option but I still feel that Goode is the next best 15 in England.

I don't think many believe him as bad as the volume of posts would suggest NJ.

For myself I find it a bit of a disappointing selection because I'm finally starting to feel that we are looking at back three players with the raw attributes needed to be able to threaten an international defence - pace, power, quick feet, pace...

That's where Goode will feel like a step backwards to many fans. Whilst he definitely has his attributes, ones which could be vital in Dublin too, he is lacking in that game breaking ability which many have been wanting for so long and finally thought we were seeing.

Maybe Lancaster would be concerned that his game-breakers might have problems game-consolidating in Dublin? Horses for courses and the flighty guys always looking for a counter or a strike run can often get caught out on the more mundane duties of defence.

PS oops...just saw Lostinwales' post. Sorry for the repeat there.

by TightHEAD Tue 24 Feb - 14:20

Its very calm on here seeing as this is the game of the 6 nations.

I voted for an Ireland win, just think will get pinged a lot at the breakdown, throw in Sextons boot and they will walk away with a tight win 6-9 pts.

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