England Squad for the 6N 2016

First topic message reminder :

Well, the dust is settling on our early exit, time to concentrate on the next disappointment.

We obviously have no idea who the Head Coach or team will be at this current point, but we can take a stab at the potential squad going into the 6N.

2 games into the AP season, who's looking impressive? Who can come in under the radar and steal a spot? Are any of the disappointing WC squad going to grab the bull by the horns and actually impress! Who should be captain? What could or starting 23 be? Do we starting blooding for 2019 now?

I'd be happy with Pennell as backup Carlos, he's a very accomplished FB, certainly better than Goode.

True, i'd forgotten about Pennell, he'd offer a good like for like replacement of Brown. But then I've always thought the same of Nowell too.

Nowell at 15 then allows for a different wing combo.

Goode's form this season has been stunningly good. I feel he is quite easily the most skilful of all the contenders, which is why he looks so good at club level, and why the pundits like him. However as I discussed on another thread the weaknesses in his game are too easily exploited by international players, while his skill ha much less of an impact.

I can though see Jones looking at him, rather than the "blood and thunder" types represented by Brown and Pennell.

I really hope not LT, his lack of gas and poor defence are huge issues at Int level. Some players just can't cut it and I think he falls into that category unfortunately. Another player I feel fits in here is Wade, he's just poor at the basics in defence.

To me, the difference between Wade and Goode is that we have seen Goode extensively at International level and know what he can and cannot do.  Wade hasn't had a crack.  Compared to Johnny May who runs and runs but seems clueless, Wade knows how to run to the try line and doesn't seem to give the ball up with bad decisions.  Not saying I am pushing to see Wade have a go, but if given a choice between the two, I am not sure who I would select.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really hope not LT, his lack of gas and poor defence are huge issues at Int level. Some players just can't cut it and I think he falls into that category unfortunately. Another player I feel fits in here is Wade, he's just poor at the basics in defence.

jink jink splat

I think Mike Williams is going to start turning a few heads. He's an absolute brute.

doctor_grey wrote:To me, the difference between Wade and Goode is that we have seen Goode extensively at International level and know what he can and cannot do.  Wade hasn't had a crack.  Compared to Johnny May who runs and runs but seems clueless, Wade knows how to run to the try line and doesn't seem to give the ball up with bad decisions.  Not saying I am pushing to see Wade have a go, but if given a choice between the two, I am not sure who I would select.

I would have Watson at FB & Wade on the wing but unfortunately Wade looks as though he is out for 2-3 months so will miss the 6Ns I reckon

We're fine with wings and FB's

Wings - Watson, May, Nowell, Roko
FB - Brown, Watson, Nowell, Pennell, Foden

Plus others showing some good form.

doctor_grey wrote:To me, the difference between Wade and Goode is that we have seen Goode extensively at International level and know what he can and cannot do.  Wade hasn't had a crack.  Compared to Johnny May who runs and runs but seems clueless, Wade knows how to run to the try line and doesn't seem to give the ball up with bad decisions.  Not saying I am pushing to see Wade have a go, but if given a choice between the two, I am not sure who I would select.

I don't think he's had a crack because he has huge defensive issues. I seem to remember a few seasons back he was told by SL to go back and work on the high ball, positioning and tackling. To me, none of these have improved. His work under the high ball is atrocious at times, he's almost useless there.

He has some great attacking attributes but you just can't hide at International level, you need a more rounded game.

I agree totally about his high ball handling Sgt.

Its extremely poor.

I think England should start playing to their strengths & not look at defence so much.

Ugo's view this year which I'm sure a lot of people agree with including me.

'What’s your opinion on Christian Wade? A lot of people seem to focus on his defensive frailties, but having played both against and with him do you think he deserves a shot at international level?

Definitely, he’s a wonderful talent. Everyone talks about his weaknesses all too frequently, but you’ve got to focus on what he does well. What he does better than anyone else is that ‘X Factor’, in terms of finishing, which is just unbeliveable – better than anyone in Europe, I’d suggest. He beats players for fun, makes them look silly. I was playing a couple of weeks ago when he scored a hattrick against the Barbarians, but he’s been doing that all season. Whether or not they think he’s right for 2015, you’ve got to consider 2019 as well.

You have to remember that Shane Williams was written off for being too small, but ended up as a legend – top try scorer in Wales’ history and a two time British Lion.'

Well it will be interesting to see what Eddie Jones does with him.

If he's not selected then its quite a statement on the player...but I have a suspicion he may have the same opinion as Ugo and put him in.

So is it true that Eddie can only make a maximum of 10 changes from the previous EPS?

GeordieFalcon wrote:
So is it true that Eddie can only make a maximum of 10 changes from the previous EPS?

No.


Each season you can start with a clean slate, and the RWC squad is not an EPS.

Then you can make 5 (I think) form changes and any injury changes you want. Of course that only covers non international periods. During international windows he can call up anyone.

There's focusing on attacking attributes then just completely ignoring how bad players are in defence, which is the case with Wade.

Off the top of my head I can't think of another player in Int rugby who is bad in defence and so poor under the high ball. You just can't get away with being so poor at basic skills and expect other things to gloss over these weaknesses.

I hope he can improve in these areas as he certainly has great feet and can finish given a sniff. Luckily wing is not an area of weakness for us right now with Nowell, Watson, May, Ashton, Yarde etc.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
So is it true that Eddie can only make a maximum of 10 changes from the previous EPS?

No.


Each season you can start with a clean slate, and the RWC squad is not an EPS.

Then you can make 5 (I think) form changes and any injury changes you want. Of course that only covers non international periods. During international windows he can call up anyone.

LT, I thought that too, but this article from Dean Ryan says differently

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/26/eddie-jones-england-rfu-twickenham-selection

Nothing is ever straightforward where Twickenham is concerned and Jones will have discovered that, rather than starting from scratch, he can make only 10 changes to the 33-man elite player squad left over by Stuart Lancaster, unless he wants to make his employers foot a rather large bill in compensation to the clubs for extra changes.

I am not a big fan of May. I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better. How is Ashton's defence right now?

Too be honest there doesn't need to be more than 10 changes...even that is too many.

Only a few tweaks I would suggest

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's focusing on attacking attributes then just completely ignoring how bad players are in defence, which is the case with Wade.

Off the top of my head I can't think of another player in Int rugby who is bad in defence and so poor under the high ball. You just can't get away with being so poor at basic skills and expect other things to gloss over these weaknesses.

I hope he can improve in these areas as he certainly has great feet and can finish given a sniff. Luckily wing is not an area of weakness for us right now with Nowell, Watson, May, Ashton, Yarde etc.

I've just twigged - you don't like small fast players at Wasps

doctor_grey wrote:I am not a big fan of May.  I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better.  How is Ashton's defence right now?  

I suspect that is an impression for some that will never go away, even when it is 5-10 years since he last did it. Players get pigeon holed and we seem to never let them get over that initial first impression.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I am not a big fan of May.  I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better.  How is Ashton's defence right now?  

I suspect that is an impression for some that will never go away, even when it is 5-10 years since he last did it. Players get pigeon holed and we seem to never let them get over that initial first impression.

I agree LT, I think May has actually shown big progress in that area and shown that he for one has really worked on those areas of his game.

Plus he's the best kick chaser in the squad!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:There's focusing on attacking attributes then just completely ignoring how bad players are in defence, which is the case with Wade.

Off the top of my head I can't think of another player in Int rugby who is bad in defence and so poor under the high ball. You just can't get away with being so poor at basic skills and expect other things to gloss over these weaknesses.

I hope he can improve in these areas as he certainly has great feet and can finish given a sniff. Luckily wing is not an area of weakness for us right now with Nowell, Watson, May, Ashton, Yarde etc.

I've just twigged - you don't like small fast players at Wasps

Nothing to do with Wasps, I like them as a team, they play some lovely rugby. I'm just of the thinking at International level you need a decent basic all round game and should be good at your tasks, anything else is then a bonus.

A back 3 player should be able to field a high ball and be steady positionaly & defensively. A hooker should be able to throw and hook a ball as well as scrummage to a good level. A scrum half should be able to pass/kick and have some game management etc etc.

These are just basic requirements and then you find your best players from this pool. For every 5pts that Wade scores, he makes numerous mistakes that cost points. This would only be highlighted at International level.

How many of the AB back 3 players cannot field a high ball or are poor in defence.........none.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I am not a big fan of May.  I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better.  How is Ashton's defence right now?  

I suspect that is an impression for some that will never go away, even when it is 5-10 years since he last did it. Players get pigeon holed and we seem to never let them get over that initial first impression.

He did it again for Gloucester against Saints this weekend.

Wade has come on in his defence of his defence. Still by far the best attacking wing we have.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wade has come on in his defence of his defence. Still by far the best attacking wing we have.

I disagree, I think he's pretty poor there. His positioning and work under the high ball are much worse than his straight up tackling though.

It's a balance of course but I'd like to see him tried, he's out injured now though isn't he? And hang on just read you would consider Ashton who is much much worse in defence than Wade; who at least isn't scared to tackle!

Ashton is nowhere near Wade, I'm quite shocked you've actually said that. Ashton is decent under the high ball, his positioning is good and his kick chase is excellent. He slips off the odd tackle but he's much stronger than Wade.

I don't see the point in trying players out who are obvioulsy not good enough. If it was up to some people on here we'd have a different XV every game "to try players out".

I'd have Wade over Ashton any day, but not particularly keen on either.

Watson, Nowell and May are my first choices at wing, then I'm looking at Yarde as next man in

Ashton has shown for a good while his defence isn't good enough and that was fine if he was scoring, which also dried up. Ashton is the worst out of the candidates in defence for me. I'd echo that BamBam except Wade for Yarde.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I am not a big fan of May.  I suppose he still gives me the impression of the headless chicken and I not convinced.
Nowell and Watson I think are good and getting better.  How is Ashton's defence right now?  

I suspect that is an impression for some that will never go away, even when it is 5-10 years since he last did it. Players get pigeon holed and we seem to never let them get over that initial first impression.

He did it again for Gloucester against Saints this weekend.  

Doc,
I don't actually mind him zigzagging / running like a headless chicken the odd time. The problem was he did it ALL the time, and more infuriating was at times when he had a clear straight run forward...he would stop instead of just pining his ears back and going for it.

I do think he's improved a lot in that area.

As for Wade
I would have him in the squad to to have a real good look at him.

May is a top class kick chaser, get them in training and have Farrell drop a few bombs on Wade with May and Watson chasing see how he copes.

It should also be noted that May made more ground forwards than any other player on either side on Friday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ashton has shown for a good while his defence isn't good enough and that was fine if he was scoring, which also dried up. Ashton is the worst out of the candidates in defence for me. I'd echo that BamBam except Wade for Yarde.

Pretty sure he got 2 tries at the weekend.

Ashton's all round defensive game (kick chase, tackling, positioning, high ball) is superior to Wade's at AP level, that's not even a debate.

It's no surprise Wade has failed to make an England squad, I can't see this changing anytime soon.

Yeah, and he was continuing to score for his club when he wasn't for England. Ashton shouldn't be getting a chance before Wade and I'd still say Wades defence is better. I think that would be up for debate, certainly don't think everyone would be siding with Ashton there.

Nobody with half a brain can tell me Wade is stronger under the high ball/positionally or kick chasing than Ashton.

I think that's the thing.

The way I see it...

Ashton is probably better positionally etc, but the actual tackling ability I think Wade is better.

High ball is an issue, as ive seen Wade a few times this season and he looks frightened of his life when that ball goes high. But they can work on it.

I'd prefer him to Ashton now. I would have him in the extended squad and do what I said before...hit him with bombs, test him in training. If he looks of then look at him against sides that aren't as offensively blessed and keep going from there!

Ashton is good at a kick chase, positioning and tackling worse than Wade for me. And miles behind in bravery. Who's better going forward? I know that isn't even a question.

Worse positionally than Wade is schoolboy level, bad times.

Have to agree to disagree, Wade will be nowhere near the 6N squad anyway.

If Wade is out for 2-3 months as I had heard, then yes he has very little chance.

He's injured for it isn't he? Certainly deserves a chance though.

At the moment its irrelevant. Hes out for 3 months isn't he?

And I would have it like this:

May, Watson, Nowell, Roko - Fighting for the shirts
----
Wade - Work in progress. Bring in to the extended squads and having him training with the squad to work on improvements.

Even if fit he wouldn't, he's just got too many flaws.

I think the beauty at the moment is that I have no idea who Jones is going to favour.

LondonTiger wrote:It should also be noted that May made more ground forwards than any other player on either side on Friday.

I think it's possible for a wing or FB to dominate stats without necessarily playing that well. I do find it hard to believe that May is one of the best 2 wings in England. He just doesn't look to have much of a rugby brain. IMO Nowell and Watson look much better and I would play Yarde and Wade before May.

offload wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It should also be noted that May made more ground forwards than any other player on either side on Friday.

I think it's possible for a wing or FB to dominate stats without necessarily playing that well.  I do find it hard to believe that May is one of the best 2 wings in England. He just doesn't look to have much of a rugby brain. IMO Nowell and Watson look much better and I would play Yarde and Wade before May.

Beauty of opinions

For me May is our best winger. Watson too often looks lost defensively on the wing and is a really poor tackler. Defensively he is a better FB and running from their suits his game more.

Nowell I really like but with his knees struggle to see a long career.

Yarde I like too, but he seems to have lost pace.

Wade is our best Winger ball in hand, but not that far ahead of May (for me) to outweigh the defnsive issues.



I like May so much that I believe if you put him in the Sarries team at 11 instead of Wyles he would win European Player of The Year - these panels love flashy players, and with the grunt of Sarries in front of him he would score tries by the bucket load.

May is yet another 'marmite' player. His basics are all solid (for a wing....) His kick chase is exceptional and his pace is quite extraordinary. I'd also add that he has improved his error count over the last couple of seasons.

It might be down to the old problem with these types of players of always expecting something amazing to happen when he gets the ball so when it doesn't (and there are a couple of howling mistakes as well) its very easy to mark him down. But I do think the pace is enough to make him at least a threat from anywhere on the pitch, and when he does click he can do enormous damage.

All of the wings we have have different strengths and weaknesses, and I am glad its not my choice as to who to play, but if it was I would play May.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think the beauty at the moment is that I have no idea who Jones is going to favour.

And I think that's important as well. We just don't know what he's going to go with.

Hopefully though he'll stop the extreme multi tasking. Yes players have to do a lot now...even props etc, but can we please have players like Cole etc...focus on PROPING not being an extra flanker etc.

Still loving how many players are putting their hands up for selection. Not even as if we can discount that many for poor performances.

Well yes that's another thing aswell.

But Eddie knows the type of player he wants. He'll be unlike any of the other coaches as he wont have any loyalty so will pick who he sees as the best fit for the style and game he wants to play.

Not much point worrying about Wade - every time he gets a sniff at the test side he gets crocked. The Gods just don't want him in.

And every team needs a least 1 back 3 player who scares the opposition, usually with pace (unless you're talking Savea who's got everything) - and for England that has to be May.

And I see Geech is up to his 'let's get England' tricks again - wants Hartley or Farrell as captain.

Another JSD?