PrO'12 Launch Officiating Review

Guinness Pro12 bosses have revealed they are undertaking a comprehensive officiating review, focusing predominantly on the appointment of the league's assistant referees.

The issue of refereeing in the Pro12 has been a source of constant debate with league chiefs admitting it has been raised as a concern by all 12 clubs in the division.

At the moment, the leagues' referees and touch judges are able to take charge of matches involving teams from the country of their birth, leading to worries over what could be perceived as potential bias.

As a result, Pro12 chiefs are now exploring the possibility of whether it's possible to appoint impartial assistants for each game moving forwards.

“Officiating is something which is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment,” admitted new Pro12 managing director Martin Anayi.

“I am in the process of meeting all the clubs and one of the good things about doing that is you get a feel for a lot of the things which are issues throughout the competition.

“It's clear officiating is one of them

In one of a number of controversial refereeing incidents which took place last season, Connacht boss Pat Lam launched an extraordinary attack on Welsh official Leighton Hodges after the Irish side were beaten by Cardiff Blues in March.

Hodges stepped in to advise referee Lloyd Linton to award the Blues a late penalty in the clash in the Welsh capital, the call prolonging the match and allowing the Blues to steal victory in the 88th minute.

It left Lam, who was fined €8,000, to bemoan a decision which he thought was completely wrong, the Samoan boss arguing officials must be held to account with the livelihoods of rugby's players and coaches on the line.

Lam's outburst wasn't the only such incident last season

After Leinster were beaten by the Scarlets in March, then Leinster coach Matt O'Connor came out strongly against the non-use of neutral referees in the Pro12.

O'Connor, who has since been ditched by the Irish giants, argued at the time that he believed the credibility of the tournament was at stake without impartial officials.

Leinster's 23-13 defeat in Llanelli that day saw O'Connor incensed at Welsh assistants Gwyn Morris and Chris Williams for failing to award what he saw as a try for wing Zane Kirchner.

“I think it was a Welsh TMO – I don’t know,” O'Connor said after the game, as he urged the importance of neutral officials.

“It has to be looked at how they're put together across the board because with meritocracy (European qualification), everything is important.”

While these issues are nothing new, the league is yet to see the implementation of neutral officials.

Tonight's derby between the Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons will be officiated by an all Welsh party with the Welsh Rugby Union providing referee Ben Whitehouse, assistants Neil Hennessy and Dan Jones as well as citing commissioner Gwyn Bowden and TMO Derek Bevan.

A look at the other Pro12 games taking place this weekend sees a combination of Irish and Italian officials take charge of Leinster's trip to Treviso and Scottish assistants Lloyd Linton and Mike Adamson on the line for Glasgow's home game with the Ospreys.

“What we are addressing at the moment is the appointments of the assistant referees rather than the main official,” added Anayi, who revealed earlier this week the Pro12 are exploring the possibility of playing games in America.

“The Unions provide the officials and that's important to make sure as we the Pro12 are not paying for the referees.”

Former England referee Ed Morrison, who took charge of 41 Test matches, is the man currently looking into whether the implementation of completely neutral officials is possible in the Pro12.

Morrison, who works closely with the refereeing managers from the division's four countries, is hoping to help the league achieve a new level of refereeing consistency though it remains to be seen whether that can be achieved.

One issue hindering the implementation of neutral referees or assistants is the lack of quality Scottish and Italian officials to choose from.

“We have employed Ed Morrison to review the whole pool of officials and he will report back to me on that in the near future,” Anayi confirmed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Could someone explain to me why Ulster seem to get a bit of leeway when playing on a Friday night? The dragons certainly don't. I'm sure it's been covered somewhere but I missed it.

It's because they only have 1 broadcaster to appease. which gets the same slot every week as per the tv deal that the Union run teams don't want to change, thus hurting teams that are not Union owned and creating difficulties for certain teams in the elague re: fixtures.

But apparently that's all Love sacks.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

Ye it punishes teams such as Munster as they hate playing on Friday. Munster constantly having to play games on friday nights is one of the many reason for their falling attendances. Once again it's the tv that decides this not the IRFU as you think.

Is that the same Munster team that didn't play a single home or away game on Sunday last season?

Oooooof poor old Munster. Always getting a raw deal they are.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

Ye it punishes teams such as Munster as they hate playing on Friday. Munster constantly having to play games on friday nights is one of the many reason for their falling attendances. Once again it's the tv that decides this not the IRFU as you think.

Is that the same Munster team that didn't play a single home or away game on Sunday last season?

Oooooof poor old Munster. Always getting a raw deal they are.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Could someone explain to me why Ulster seem to get a bit of leeway when playing on a Friday night? The dragons certainly don't. I'm sure it's been covered somewhere but I missed it.

It's because they only have 1 broadcaster to appease. which gets the same slot every week as per the tv deal that the Union run teams don't want to change, thus hurting teams that are not Union owned and creating difficulties for certain teams in the elague re: fixtures.

But apparently that's all Love sacks.

Chunky can you show us were the union run teams have refused to change the tv deal? And if it was the case then why agree a deal with Sky?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

Ye it punishes teams such as Munster as they hate playing on Friday. Munster constantly having to play games on friday nights is one of the many reason for their falling attendances. Once again it's the tv that decides this not the IRFU as you think.

Is that the same Munster team that didn't play a single home or away game on Sunday last season?

Oooooof poor old Munster. Always getting a raw deal they are.

Yes that one. The same Munster team that had to play an INTERPRO at 6pm on the friday of a world cup match resulting in only getting 8k through the gates instead of 18k.

Leinster had to play against the Dragons on the same Sunday Wales and Ireland were playing in the 6 nations resulting in our lowest attendance in 5 years! We can all have complaints about the tv but they are the ones deciding not the IRFU.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

How does it punish others?

Seriously? You honestly 100% can't see how other teams would be effected if one team continuously gets the same slot every home game.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

How does it punish others?

Seriously? You honestly 100% can't see how other teams would be effected if one team continuously gets the same slot every home game.

No, I can't. Not all time slots suit all teams. Ulster have to play Friday, Saturday and Sundays away. Doesn't always suit us either. You would argue for a specific time slot for your team. Something that works for you. Why would you expect Ulster to be any different? Not that Friday works for everyone in Ulster. It doesn't.

We have made it work for us, as much as is possible. In that sense it's an advantage to Ulster, but to claim that it punishes other teams is ridiculous.

carpet baboon wrote:Chunky you are a very angry and bitter man. Do you see conspiracy theory n everyday life or just the pro12?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

Ye it punishes teams such as Munster as they hate playing on Friday. Munster constantly having to play games on friday nights is one of the many reason for their falling attendances. Once again it's the tv that decides this not the IRFU as you think.

Is that the same Munster team that didn't play a single home or away game on Sunday last season?

Oooooof poor old Munster. Always getting a raw deal they are.

Yes that one. The same Munster team that had to play an INTERPRO at 6pm on the friday of a world cup match resulting in only getting 8k through the gates instead of 18k.

Leinster had to play against the Dragons on the same Sunday Wales and Ireland were playing in the 6 nations resulting in our lowest attendance in 5 years! We can all have complaints about the tv but they are the ones deciding not the IRFU.

So why continue with the tv deal?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Could someone explain to me why Ulster seem to get a bit of leeway when playing on a Friday night? The dragons certainly don't. I'm sure it's been covered somewhere but I missed it.

It's because they only have 1 broadcaster to appease. which gets the same slot every week as per the tv deal that the Union run teams don't want to change, thus hurting teams that are not Union owned and creating difficulties for certain teams in the elague re: fixtures.

But apparently that's all Love sacks.

Chunky can you show us were the union run teams have refused to change the tv deal? And if it was the case then why agree a deal with Sky?

Ah abck to the "I demand to be shown minutes of the meeting" argument. Of course I haven't got documentary evidence. It's quite clear the Union teams are ok with the current set up. The sky slot is supplementary to the other times isn't it. They forewent the saturday slot for the 5 million.

I'd love to see their reaction to the whole of the league being covered exclusively by sky with no Friday night games. That's the true leveller.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Back to that? How does that hurt the league?

It favours certain teams and punishes others. As has been explained to you circa 43 times.

How does it punish others?

Seriously? You honestly 100% can't see how other teams would be effected if one team continuously gets the same slot every home game.

No, I can't. Not all time slots suit all teams. Ulster have to play Friday, Saturday and Sundays away. Doesn't always suit us either. You would argue for a specific time slot for your team. Something that works for you. Why would you expect Ulster to be any different? Not that Friday works for everyone in Ulster. It doesn't.

We have made it work for us, as much as is possible. In that sense it's an advantage to Ulster, but to claim that it punishes other teams is ridiculous.

Amazing.

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Chunky you are a very angry and bitter man. Do you see conspiracy theory n everyday life or just the pro12?

What do you think?

It's the pack menatlity isn't it. Differing opinion must equal nutjob.

carpet baboon wrote:

No differing opinion is fine and I and all others welcome it, but can you honestly say if you look back at all your posts throughout this forum, that it may just come across as your a little bit, how can I put this politely... Got a raging hard on for this perceived injustice against the welsh orchestrated by the IRFU?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

As we've been through countless times, I very much doubt a team that sells season tickets on the back of "Friday night beign rugby night" would pleasingly give up the right to play rugby on the aforementioend day of the week. Or maybe I'm doing Ulster a disservice and they'd happily reduce their income and supporter base dissatisfaction levels just to help Welsh domestic rugby out a little.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

As we've been through countless times, I very much doubt a team that sells season tickets on the back of "Friday night beign rugby night" would pleasingly give up the right to play rugby on the aforementioend day of the week. Or maybe I'm doing Ulster a disservice and they'd happily reduce their income and supporter base dissatisfaction levels just to help Welsh domestic rugby out a little.

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

As we've been through countless times, I very much doubt a team that sells season tickets on the back of "Friday night beign rugby night" would pleasingly give up the right to play rugby on the aforementioend day of the week. Or maybe I'm doing Ulster a disservice and they'd happily reduce their income and supporter base dissatisfaction levels just to help Welsh domestic rugby out a little.

So chunky your own team sold out its fans to please the TV folk?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

No differing opinion is fine and I and all others welcome it, but can you honestly say if you look back at all your posts throughout this forum, that it may just come across as your a little bit, how can I put this politely... Got a raging hard on for this perceived injustice against the welsh orchestrated by the IRFU?

Do you think:

a) the likes of  me, scarletspiderman,LD and PhillBB (i.e. me again) are so bored that we concoct a series of argument out of nothing and type it on an internet forum just for kicks?

Or

b) do you think that somewhere, in the masses of words and threads that have been typed over the last 3 years or so there is a tiny, miniscule chance that some of this might just have some credence?

I can probably guess what option most on here would choose.

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

As we've been through countless times, I very much doubt a team that sells season tickets on the back of "Friday night beign rugby night" would pleasingly give up the right to play rugby on the aforementioend day of the week. Or maybe I'm doing Ulster a disservice and they'd happily reduce their income and supporter base dissatisfaction levels just to help Welsh domestic rugby out a little.

When have Ulster ever used that to sell season tickets? Considering you were complaining a while back about most fixtures not being announced yet that'd be poor marketing

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Then what your saying is you believe it suits the Union run teams, are you a fan of any of those teams?

I asked the question because you were pontificating like you knew something the rest of us don't your just asserting opinion as fact

As we've been through countless times, I very much doubt a team that sells season tickets on the back of "Friday night beign rugby night" would pleasingly give up the right to play rugby on the aforementioend day of the week. Or maybe I'm doing Ulster a disservice and they'd happily reduce their income and supporter base dissatisfaction levels just to help Welsh domestic rugby out a little.

When have Ulster ever used that to sell season tickets? Considering you were complaining a while back about most fixtures not being announced yet that'd be poor marketing

I know. They were so sure of their home games being on Friday nights, they put it in the season ticket advert without the fixtures being announced.

But still "nothing to see here, the league is fair"

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/ImportNews1076.php#.Vjt5Eitpv8k

https://www.facebook.com/ulsterrugby/posts/10152225481281421

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

No differing opinion is fine and I and all others welcome it, but can you honestly say if you look back at all your posts throughout this forum, that it may just come across as your a little bit, how can I put this politely... Got a raging hard on for this perceived injustice against the welsh orchestrated by the IRFU?

Do you think:

a) the likes of  me, scarletspiderman,LD and PhillBB (i.e. me again) are so bored that we concoct a series of argument out of nothing and type it on an internet forum just for kicks?

Or

b) do you think that somewhere, in the masses of words and threads that have been typed over the last 3 years or so there is a tiny, miniscule chance that some of this might just have some credence?

I can probably guess what option most on here would choose.

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

carpet baboon wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

No differing opinion is fine and I and all others welcome it, but can you honestly say if you look back at all your posts throughout this forum, that it may just come across as your a little bit, how can I put this politely... Got a raging hard on for this perceived injustice against the welsh orchestrated by the IRFU?

Do you think:

a) the likes of  me, scarletspiderman,LD and PhillBB (i.e. me again) are so bored that we concoct a series of argument out of nothing and type it on an internet forum just for kicks?

Or

b) do you think that somewhere, in the masses of words and threads that have been typed over the last 3 years or so there is a tiny, miniscule chance that some of this might just have some credence?

I can probably guess what option most on here would choose.

I think your angry your regions have been starved of cash and messed around by the WRU and your angry to see the league dominated by the Irish, so you shout fix and conspiracy, rather than look at your own teams failures being down to not being good enough.
You also get a perverse plesure of winding people up on line and getting a reaction.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Why is that wrong?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Why is that wrong?

Now I know your taking the p1ss.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

marty2086 wrote:

Its unfair on everyone else

but how does it amount to the tv deal being rigged for union run teams since it would...you know....affect union run teams too

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Actually, hold on a minute. The fixtures were not announced. You're making that up.

You provide two links to the same advert. That advert does nothing more than mention that Friday night is rugby night in Ulster.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its unfair on everyone else

Thank you. Can you explain to Munchkin why this is so.

Cheers

but how does it amount to the tv deal being rigged for union run teams since it would...you know....affect union run teams too

This discrepancy on it's own doesn't.

The tv deal has morphed into a very one sided deal, which favours certain teams and not others. It needs to change tin order to be a level playing field. This is before we even talk about the finances involved from each participating Union. But you know all this because I've typed it on this forum around 7 or 8 times before.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

What's wrong with being sure of our home games? Why is that wrong?

The fixtures weren't announced Munchkin. Other teams had to wait another 4 months for theirs.

Actually, hold on a minute. The fixtures were not announced. You're making that up.

You provide two links to the same advert. That advert does nothing more than mention that Friday night is rugby night in Ulster.

  .

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't unfair, unless you're saying that Ulster also have to travel on Fridays. It's good for Ulster to have a settled time for the home games. You would agree that it would be good for any side to have a settled time for home games. It isn't unfair, as Ulster also have to travel on Fridays.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't unfair, unless you're saying that Ulster also have to travel on Fridays. It's good for Ulster to have a settled time for the home games. You would agree that it would be good for any side to have a settled time for home games. It isn't unfair, as Ulster also have to travel on Fridays.

I'll wait for Marty to explain why he thinks it's unfair.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't unfair, unless you're saying that Ulster also have to travel on Fridays. It's good for Ulster to have a settled time for the home games. You would agree that it would be good for any side to have a settled time for home games. It isn't unfair, as Ulster also have to travel on Fridays.

I'll wait for Marty to explain why he thinks it's unfair.

Because you can't argue with the reasoning?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't unfair, unless you're saying that Ulster also have to travel on Fridays. It's good for Ulster to have a settled time for the home games. You would agree that it would be good for any side to have a settled time for home games. It isn't unfair, as Ulster also have to travel on Fridays.

I'll wait for Marty to explain why he thinks it's unfair.

Because you can't argue with the reasoning?

Yeah you've really got me there.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Its unfair on everyone else

Thank you. Can you explain to Munchkin why this is so.

Cheers

but how does it amount to the tv deal being rigged for union run teams since it would...you know....affect union run teams too

This discrepancy on it's own doesn't.

The tv deal has morphed into a very one sided deal, which favours certain teams and not others. It needs to change tin order to be a level playing field. This is before we even talk about the finances involved from each participating Union. But you know all this because I've typed it on this forum around 7 or 8 times before.

carpet baboon wrote:If its so unfair why did the welsh sign up to it?

marty2086 wrote:

If you got te ko times you wanted someone else would be peeved

Munchkin wrote:. There doesn't seem to be any great drive from RRW (whatever they are calling themselves now) to push for change on that front.
.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:. There doesn't seem to be any great drive from RRW (whatever they are calling themselves now) to push for change on that front.
.

When I put forward an informed opinion about what the IRFU wanted, I was asked for proof.

So come on, lets have some evidence that the PRW have no desire for change to the tv deal and fixture slots. Thanks.









I could even post evidence that proves the opposite of what your claiming but I'll leave it at that for now.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What teams are benefiting from the current ko times?