2016 6 Nations Champions are...

First topic message reminder :

No bickering here on this thread, there are plenty of others to for you girls to pull each others hair...

Here, just simply answer the poll... Now half way through (well nearly), who's going to lift that 6 Nations trophy for 2016.

Put all teams in the mix, for fairness (in alphabetic order not current standing)...

Not asking in the poll if you predict a Grand Slam win, as 2 sides have a chance of it, so if you want to predict that, by all means do so with a response...

bluestonevedder wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Anyone who thinks a team is a shoo in for a Slam after beating Italy and Scotland must need their head and likely other parts of their body examined.

So who on here has said they think that?

Well, Gatland said it (http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/636196/Warren-Gatland-confident-Wales-complete-Grand-Slam-hat-trick-Six-Nations-Rugby-Union-News)

But that can't be arrogance because he's not English.  

Double standards? What double standards?!

No, you're quite right that's just good old fashioned confidence for anyone but England!!

No9 wrote:No bickering here on this thread, there are plenty of others to for you girls to pull each others hair...

Here, just simply answer the poll... Now half way through (well nearly), who's going to lift that 6 Nations trophy for 2016.

Put all teams in the mix, for fairness (in alphabetic order not current standing)...

Not asking in the poll if you predict a Grand Slam win, as 2 sides have a chance of it, so if you want to predict that, by all means do so with a response...

Oh....

No, you're quite right that's just good old fashioned confidence for anyone but England!! Laugh



Maybe confidence comes from winning a few Grand Slams and being generally a successful all round coach - Confidence after being the first host nation to bomb at a RWC may be seen as something else - its just a thought

RubyGuby wrote:No, you're quite right that's just good old fashioned confidence for anyone but England!! Laugh



Maybe confidence comes from winning a few Grand Slams and being generally a successful all round coach - Confidence after being the first host nation to bomb at a RWC may be seen as something else - its just a thought

More a comment about double standards rather than any right to have confidence at this point Rubes

RubyGuby wrote:No, you're quite right that's just good old fashioned confidence for anyone but England!! Laugh



Maybe confidence comes from winning a few Grand Slams and being generally a successful all round coach - Confidence after being the first host nation to bomb at a RWC may be seen as something else - its just a thought

Well next time Wales host the RWC you can find out what its like.

Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Find it hard to predict precise points for a couple of reasons.

1) France. If they get thumped by Wales next week, which is entirely possible, do they react like wounded lions or do they just jack it in, which has been more often the pattern in recent years?

2) Scotland. Impossible to over-estimate the importance of next Saturday. If they manage to get over the line at last, I wouldn't exclude the possibility of six points, including turning us over in Dublin. That's how much I think confidence could do for this group of players. On the other hand, if they somehow get turned over by the Italians again, I'm almost certain that the psychological repercussions will mean another season without a point at all. It is such a fine margin, as it has been for a while now, for the men in blue.

RiscaGame wrote:Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

mikey_dragon wrote:Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

It's the same principle as the one which says Wales have more right to feel confident of taking the title because they've done it before. Gatland would likely draw more criticism than Jones if he got a bit gobby, because he's done it before.

Personally, I'm on side with the idea Wales are entitled to feel more confident than England. In the Six Nations, they have proved they can win big matches, while England have proved they know how to lose them. England have looked good for the title before, on the strength of early results and upcoming fixtures. I can even recall Brian Moore writing that England had already won the 2013 title before the last round of matches, because he thought Wales had to score more than even the hatful they did. He forgot that every additional point for Wales was one off England's points difference in a head-to-head.

England still have to face Ireland, Wales and France. Over the last five Six Nations campaigns, England have lost a single match to one of...Ireland, Wales and France. On only one occasion was that record still enough to take the title. In fact, we have not managed to beat all three of those teams in a championship since the 2003 Grand Slam.

Undoubtedly, there's an advantage to have two games against these opponents at home. Ireland have injuries, France are stuttering, and revenge would be sweet against the Welsh. There's no arrogance in recognising factors which might tip the balance in a close contest but it's perfectly fair to note that all our ducks have been lined up before, and we've missed.

I haven't seen anything in the way England are playing right now to inspire greater confidence that previous years. Still, a couple of those games we lost were close run things, so it's not impossible we could get luckier, rather than much better, and do the job that way.

Cheikas view,

They have won their two Six Nations matches under his tutelage which didn't surprise Cheika.

"They've been playing much better," he said.

"You look at the way they've been playing and he's given them more belief straight away and that's what I knew he'd do.

"Even in the World Cup it was small margins so I expect them to be at the top of that Six Nations tree and it will be a really good series when they come out here."

I can't see England getting the Slam but they certainly have more chance than Wales......

....whoever finishes top at 2100 19/3 I guess.

England have two tough games coming up but I think we'll win them both. France away on the last day, the last game to win the title? France will like nothing better than spoiling England's party ala 2011 & 13.

Two games in and we are talking about slams.

Grand Slams are not a gimme. They are hard earned, no matter what the scenario is, FFS you do not have to get a slam to win the 6N. I think England will win the 6N, but I will be very surprised if they get the GS.

Just because GS have been more common in recent years, people have the belief that if you do not do a clean sweep, then you do not really win the 6N FFS.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Cheikas view,

They have won their two Six Nations matches under his tutelage which didn't surprise Cheika.

"They've been playing much better," he said.

"You look at the way they've been playing and he's given them more belief straight away and that's what I knew he'd do.

"Even in the World Cup it was small margins so I expect them to be at the top of that Six Nations tree and it will be a really good series when they come out here."

Does that come across to anyone else that he didn't watch much 6Ns last year?

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

What did the nasty man say to upset you so much Mikey? I'm assuming it must be horrific, given the level of hurt you seem to be feeling.

Lorddowlais a GS is a clean sweep. You've beaten everyone. It's not the same to win the 6 nations on points difference.

England won the 6 nations in 2011 but that's glossed over because it's the GS we care about.

Plus of course you Welsh like to use England's lack of GSs since 2003 as a criticism.

Winning 4/5 is not a big deal - England have done it many times. It's the 5/5 which is the elusive goal.

England have generally been earmarked as a potential 6 nations winner because of the consistency.

Only won 5/5 in the 6 nations once. 2003 of course.

4/5 wins in 2000,2001,2002,2011,2012,2013,2014 and 2015. A whopping 8 times.

Since the 6 nations came into fruition England have won the most matches, scored the most tries and had the best points difference.

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

What did the nasty man say to upset you so much Mikey? I'm assuming it must be horrific, given the level of hurt you seem to be feeling.

I'm not hurt at all. The reason I've mentioned it a few times was due to repeating myself, as a few of you were too stupid to understand what I was getting at. Any comment not going down on your team and perhaps offering just a little bit of a critique is dismissed as anti-English. As I said I don't like to see experienced coaches be so disingenuous to the opposition. I'm not sure if this is 'just Jones' as I don't really remember much about him before the World Cup.

For what it's worth, I think this current England team is good, and a bit better than last year's.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not hurt at all. The reason I've mentioned it a few times was due to repeating myself, as a few of you were too stupid to understand what I was getting at.

Yes, but you still haven't told me what comments made by Jones makes you state that he's arrogant and needs to show humility. You've said several time that Gatland wouldn't get away with saying it, so what was said?

Oh, still waiting for you to show me these English posts gloating about beating Italy and Scotland, that appear to have got your back up as well.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais a GS is a clean sweep. You've beaten everyone. It's not the same to win the 6 nations on points difference.

A win is a win.

beshocked wrote:England won the 6 nations in 2011 but that's glossed over because it's the GS we care about.

You see this is why some English get the arrogant tag thrown at them, winning the 6N is an achievement on it's own, a GS should never be the target, actually winning the 6N should be enough, GS are not easy to get. 

I would suggest that the English/England start winning the 6N more often before reaching for a GS.

beshocked wrote:Plus of course you Welsh like to use England's lack of GSs since 2003 as a criticism.

No we don't, we give you criticism for not actually winning the 6N, not for not getting any GS's. What a strange thing to say.

beshocked wrote:Winning 4/5 is not a big deal - England have done it many times. It's the 5/5 which is the elusive goal.

Well, obviously they have not done enough, as other teams have won 4/5 and won it above England in the past. So just because England bottle games, or cannot score as many points as others does not mean winning 4/5 and STILL winning the 6N is not a big deal.

beshocked wrote:Since the 6 nations came into fruition England have won the most matches, scored the most tries and had the best points difference.

That means feck all unless you can win when it matters, and that is what has alluded England since 2011.

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not hurt at all. The reason I've mentioned it a few times was due to repeating myself, as a few of you were too stupid to understand what I was getting at.

Yes, but you still haven't told me what comments made by Jones makes you state that he's arrogant and needs to show humility.  You've said several time that Gatland wouldn't get away with saying it, so what was said?

Oh, still waiting for you to show me these English posts gloating about beating Italy and Scotland, that appear to have got your back up as well.

I'm busy, can't you find the article yourself? Enough was made of it last week. Gatland was never able to get away with that, heck he wasn't even allowed to say that all the criticism and threats post lions hurt his feelings a bit! I'm just a bit confused as to why Jones gets exemptions?

As I've said, you, beshocked and madge have been gloating. Thankfully most have their feet on the ground. Too bad you don't though .

The "forgotten championship" in 2011 win is glossed over due to the complete ass kicking we had in Dublin lol. Grand slams are great but England have flattered to deceive recently so ill take any title win tbh..

You haven't narrowed down what comments you find arrogant though mikey.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not hurt at all. The reason I've mentioned it a few times was due to repeating myself, as a few of you were too stupid to understand what I was getting at.

Yes, but you still haven't told me what comments made by Jones makes you state that he's arrogant and needs to show humility.  You've said several time that Gatland wouldn't get away with saying it, so what was said?

Oh, still waiting for you to show me these English posts gloating about beating Italy and Scotland, that appear to have got your back up as well.

I'm busy, can't you find the article yourself? Enough was made of it last week. Gatland was never able to get away with that, heck he wasn't even allowed to say that all the criticism and threats post lions hurt his feelings a bit! I'm just a bit confused as to why Jones gets exemptions?

As I've said, you, beshocked and madge have been gloating. Thankfully most have their feet on the ground. Too bad you don't though .

Examples of my gloating please Mikey, or is it just more unfounded nonsense? I've made it pretty clear that I haven't expected England to win the 6 Nations, let alone the Slam, and that I thought both Italy and Scotland would be hard games. As for searching for this article, I don't want to read an article, I'm asking you what Eddie said that has riled you so much. Shouldn't take long for you to type an example.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

Well in fact I might point out Jones got massive criticism on his comment about thrashing Italy - it was on the main news about his 'lack of respect' and was a feature of several interviews

So not sure he is getting away with it?

Both have a Gob on them, and like to play mind games- sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - and as I said - I prefer the talking on the pitch and anything better than Scott Johnson
(Just wish Scotland could do the talking on the pitch lol)

:-)

Riskysports wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Sad to see that some can get suckered in by a headline, because not once do I see a direct quote to Gatland saying he was confident of another Grand Slam.

Exactly. Just imagine the criticism Gatland would be getting if he had said what Jones did. One rule for every other coach I guess.

Well in fact I might point out Jones got massive criticism on his comment about thrashing Italy  - it was on the main news about his 'lack of respect' and was a feature of several interviews

So not sure he is getting away with it?

Both have a Gob on them, and like to play mind games- sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - and as I said - I prefer the talking on the pitch and anything better than Scott Johnson
(Just wish Scotland could do the talking on the pitch lol)

:-)

Thanks. On here and other forums jones seems to have exemptions. I can only assume he does because he's not coaching Wales. I prefer hard-talking coaches and ones that are open and honest, but at the same time they should show respect. I think Gatland has done in recent years, after being a pretty bad PR guy early in his Wales career.

mikey_dragon wrote:Thanks. On here and other forums jones seems to have exemptions. I can only assume he does because he's not coaching Wales.

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what it is. Everyone's out to get you Mikey, just because you're Welsh. The whole rugby world has decreed that only coaches who don't coach Wales can voice an opinion.

Still not shown where I've been gloating? Wonder why.

Mickey....

Everyone is still waiting. Either find the evidence for your claims, or apologise.

The article was there for all to see. I don't see why people are becoming so obsessed?

mikey_dragon wrote:The article was there for all to see. I don't see why people are becoming so obsessed?

because a vast majority of articles that Welsh and English posters participate in get locked down by the mods. To say it's tiresome to the rest of us would be an understatement. Coming from a represntative of the only country to have played both teams in the 6N thus-far, 2 perfectly good threads were in danger of being shut down by interloping Welsh and English WUM's trying to stir it up.

I appreciate a wooden spoon is the perfect instrument to do this with, and despite having a trophy cabinet full of them it's something us Scots don't do.

What article? Stick a link up, I must have missed it.

All I've said all along was I personally disliked Jones being disingenuous. I STILL can't understand why some English posters won't accept it and have to keep questioning it. Surely these posters and gloaters can accept a different opinion? If not then this board isn't for you!

What quote though mikey? And what gloating?

mikey_dragon wrote:All I've said all along was I personally disliked Jones being disingenuous. I STILL can't understand why some English posters won't accept it and have to keep questioning it. Surely these posters and gloaters can accept a different opinion? If not then this board isn't for you!

It's a bit like stating the obvious though. He's a rancid little troll but he appears to be successful. I would have lumped Gatland into the troll category although his behaviour appears to be better these days.

Although the word better is all relative...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:All I've said all along was I personally disliked Jones being disingenuous. I STILL can't understand why some English posters won't accept it and have to keep questioning it. Surely these posters and gloaters can accept a different opinion? If not then this board isn't for you!

It's a bit like stating the obvious though. He's a rancid little troll but he appears to be successful. I would have lumped Gatland into the troll category although his behaviour appears to be better these days.

Although the word better is all relative...

I've pretty much said what you've just said too. So if you get it, why don't they?

Which quote?

mikey_dragon wrote:All I've said all along was I personally disliked Jones being disingenuous. I STILL can't understand why some English posters won't accept it and have to keep questioning it. Surely these posters and gloaters can accept a different opinion? If not then this board isn't for you!

I've asked you to point out where I've been gloating, shouldn't be difficult unless you've just made it up to stir the pot?
As for EJ, I have asked several times what he said (not for an article) that you are so against, and feel that a Welsh coach couldn't get away with saying. If it's such a big deal then surely you can remember what he said, rather than needing people to look for an article?

Who said it was a big deal? You're the ones continuously questioning it without being able to move on. Surely it's you lot that thinks it's a big deal?

If there was a quote maybe it would be a big deal. Funny that nobody but yourself has seen this elusive quote though......

Dragons are full of hot air & wasn't it slayed by some Saint?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:If there was a quote maybe it would be a big deal. Funny that nobody but yourself has seen this elusive quote though......

It's because it's made up bollix.

mikey_dragon wrote:You're the ones continuously questioning it without being able to move on. Surely it's you lot that thinks it's a big deal?

Continuous questions tend to happen if you refuse to answer, instead preferring to side track. But that's ok, I'm happy to move. I won't gloat about it either

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dragons are full of hot air & wasn't it slayed by some Saint?

Yeah a dragon in Libya! The Saint was George Saint of Malta, Georgia, Portugal, Romania oh er and England

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Dragons are full of hot air & wasn't it slayed by some Saint?

Haha

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais a GS is a clean sweep. You've beaten everyone. It's not the same to win the 6 nations on points difference.

A win is a win.

beshocked wrote:England won the 6 nations in 2011 but that's glossed over because it's the GS we care about.

You see this is why some English get the arrogant tag thrown at them, winning the 6N is an achievement on it's own, a GS should never be the target, actually winning the 6N should be enough, GS are not easy to get. 

I would suggest that the English/England start winning the 6N more often before reaching for a GS.

beshocked wrote:Plus of course you Welsh like to use England's lack of GSs since 2003 as a criticism.

No we don't, we give you criticism for not actually winning the 6N, not for not getting any GS's. What a strange thing to say.

beshocked wrote:Winning 4/5 is not a big deal - England have done it many times. It's the 5/5 which is the elusive goal.

Well, obviously they have not done enough, as other teams have won 4/5 and won it above England in the past. So just because England bottle games, or cannot score as many points as others does not mean winning 4/5 and STILL winning the 6N is not a big deal.

beshocked wrote:Since the 6 nations came into fruition England have won the most matches, scored the most tries and had the best points difference.

That means feck all unless you can win when it matters, and that is what has alluded England since 2011.

Lorddowlais why is it arrogant to want a GS? If a side like Wales can win GSs despite having lost a lot more games in the 6 nations than England then surely England should too. You say it's because England bottle it, about time they don't.

You say it's not easy - England have found it straightforward to get 4/5, it's that 5/5 which has been elusive. It's not arrogant to suggest it.

England might well win the 6 nations title on points difference with 4/5 wins but the win count would be no different from 2011,2012,2013,2014 and 2015. That's what matters to me.

Expectations are also inevitably higher because we have much more resources at our disposal too than our rivals. Is that arrogant?

Beshocked, I totally get what your saying, but is consistency what your describing?

Winning the 6N isn't about winning 4/5 games, it's pulling that little extra out of the bag when required, it's fighting through injuries, weather and hostile away crowds, and it's dealing with the pressure.

Englands win rate has always been up there through their huge talent pool, and infrastructure, but win rate doesn't give you that trophy.

Last 4/5 years England have had the exact same point score, however each year there has been a team better than them, a team capable of that little more when England weren't.

For me the magic of winning is that tiny little margin between the champions, and the rest.

All that said it's hard to look past England this year, Ireland have MORE injuries, Wales have to travel to Twickenham, and France hardly look world beaters. The Grand slam is a real possibility also

Good afternoon gentleman, and Tattie Scones. Sorry for the late reply, I was posting on my phone through the week and don't really like to search for links on there (too much effort).

Jones being disingenuous and behaving like an ill-experienced coach: http://www.sportinastorm.com/story.php?x=9&y=508&z=2056075

Jones claiming England are going to be world-beaters not long after getting kicked out of their own world cup! Oh dear: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4661616.ece

I thought it was just a Jones thing, so I gave my view and was willing to leave it at that. But as a lot of you have big issues with people not sharing your own views it has made me reconsider. Is this an England thing? The following might suggest it is so: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-doesnt-care-england-10824684

What is the problem with anything Jones has said there?

The aim is always to beat Italy big and the long term aim is to make England world champions again.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What is the problem with anything Jones has said there?

The aim is always to beat Italy big and the long term aim is to make England world champions again.

I don't think Jones should be so disingenuous given England's position going into this tournament. Just my view mind, but thankfully England won both their opening games (against the weakest opposition in the tournament). Some perspective is needed occasionally. Gatland has been absolutely vilified for saying similar in the past.

It's going well so far for England, so I expect Jones will only get worse. Whether or not that's a bad thing you decide.

Whats arrogant about it?

I've explained all that in my previous posts. Just scroll up and read them.