2016 6 Nations Champions are...

First topic message reminder :

No bickering here on this thread, there are plenty of others to for you girls to pull each others hair...

Here, just simply answer the poll... Now half way through (well nearly), who's going to lift that 6 Nations trophy for 2016.

Put all teams in the mix, for fairness (in alphabetic order not current standing)...

Not asking in the poll if you predict a Grand Slam win, as 2 sides have a chance of it, so if you want to predict that, by all means do so with a response...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whats arrogant about it?

Nothing arrogant about it at all, would be disappointed if the England coach said or thought any differently.

mikey_dragon wrote:I've explained all that in my previous posts. Just scroll up and read them.

NNo you didn't explain the arrogance issue you have.

I did. Go and read it. The trouble is you can't accept it and refuse to move on, must be an English thing then. I'm done with this anyway.

You're done because you can't justify your comments.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're done because you can't justify your comments.

You can read can't you? I'm done because I'm bored of you. It's a shame you can't move on.

Anyway, France for the 6 Nations.

Better side step than George North you've got there!

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're done because you can't justify your comments.

You can read can't you? I'm done because I'm bored of you. It's a shame you can't move on.

Anyway, France for the 6 Nations.

Mikey, France may win, think it will come down too who wins the next game.

France run in is (I think) Wales next weekend, Scotland and then England... They can certainly win it but none of those games will be easy for them. Arguably easier than England's next 3 though I suppose...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Better side step than George North you've got there!

I'm getting the thread back on track after your ongoing sidetracks talking down people who disagree with you. I reckon France for the 6 nations - are you going to keep poking at this now all because I didn't say England for the 6 nations?

No you're entitled to change your opinion and pick France. You now realise you can't back up your comments so fine to move on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No you're entitled to change your opinion and pick France. You now realise you can't back up your comments so fine to move on.

I did back them up though. I think you're still a little upset after I proved you wrong a few weeks ago over Faletau's qualification as well as the dual qualification of others

You haven't yet backed it up and you must be thinking of someone else on Faletau.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No you're entitled to change your opinion and pick France. You now realise you can't back up your comments so fine to move on.

Just give it up, you know the rhetoric by now, Gatland and Wales are apparently hard done by so he feels the need to retort in kind to an imaginary perception.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You haven't yet backed it up and you must be thinking of someone else on Faletau.

I have back up my opinion. It was you, bickering with LD.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You haven't yet backed it up and you must be thinking of someone else on Faletau.

I have back up my opinion. It was you, bickering with LD.

No and no.

Yes and yes.

Why do people bother with this guy?

Didn't have him down as a liar. Know now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't have him down as a liar. Know now.

7.5 no need to call me that when it's not true, ironic eh. You're an okay guy (much unlike Pooly and Hammersmith) so don't be like that. I always thought there was a mutual respect between us, can we keep it that way .

Haha....I'm not an OK guy? That cuts deep, you say such mean things

Soz.

Why is this discussion still going ,England put this argument to bed last weekend we played away in two of the toughest places to play in the Northern Hemisphere and spanked them, how many other teams come away from Scotland and Italy and can say that?

Haha

DirtyRucker7 wrote:Why is this discussion still going ,England put this argument to bed last weekend we played away in two of the toughest places to play in the Northern Hemisphere and spanked them, how many other teams come away from Scotland and Italy and can say that?

And to top it all they have had no tries scored against them.

majesticimperialman wrote:

DirtyRucker7 wrote:Why is this discussion still going ,England put this argument to bed last weekend we played away in two of the toughest places to play in the Northern Hemisphere and spanked them, how many other teams come away from Scotland and Italy and can say that?

And to top it  all they have had no tries scored against them.

Exactly! again i tip my hat to you fellow super fan you just like me spot the little things that the untrained eye usually misses. Hear that boys? ZERO tries against a team that scored tries for fun against Australia and the so called solid Wales defence, and Italy who showed the French what rugby is.

Actually England have had a good defence for a while now. Without looking I'm pretty sure England and Ireland have let in less tries than Wales in recent seasons. Our defence isn't that good any more, but we still hold the record for least tries conceded in a tournament. I can't see England breaking that record this year .

mikey_dragon wrote:Actually England have had a good defence for a while now. Without looking I'm pretty sure England and Ireland have let in less tries than Wales in recent seasons. Our defence isn't that good any more, but we still hold the record for least tries conceded in a tournament. I can't see England breaking that record this year .

Why not? England could easily smash that record i honestly see us not conceding a try this tournament, we have the Irish next who just kick chase,the Welsh all we have to do is get Itoje tackling Jamie Roberts and they won't get into our half let alone a try and then the French whom we love spanking.

DirtyRucker7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Actually England have had a good defence for a while now. Without looking I'm pretty sure England and Ireland have let in less tries than Wales in recent seasons. Our defence isn't that good any more, but we still hold the record for least tries conceded in a tournament. I can't see England breaking that record this year .

Why not? England could easily smash that record i honestly see us not conceding a try this tournament, we have the Irish next who just kick chase,the Welsh all we have to do is get Itoje tackling Jamie Roberts and they won't get into our half let alone a try and then the French whom we love spanking.

Hee hee - what a dirty rucker!

DirtyRucker7 wrote:Why is this discussion still going ,England put this argument to bed last weekend we played away in two of the toughest places to play in the Northern Hemisphere and spanked them, how many other teams come away from Scotland and Italy and can say that?

Post of the millennium.

DirtyRucker7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Actually England have had a good defence for a while now. Without looking I'm pretty sure England and Ireland have let in less tries than Wales in recent seasons. Our defence isn't that good any more, but we still hold the record for least tries conceded in a tournament. I can't see England breaking that record this year .

Why not? England could easily smash that record i honestly see us not conceding a try this tournament, we have the Irish next who just kick chase,the Welsh all we have to do is get Itoje tackling Jamie Roberts and they won't get into our half let alone a try and then the French whom we love spanking.

You're right, what we'll do is sell you Jamie route 1, note your wings defending deep, get it wide quick, jog to the 22, chip chase to Gareth Davies who will pick up and score under the posts.

Simple

Gwlad wrote:...your wings...

Our "new" friend may be many things, but I'm not sure you can count being English among them.

Well this page has been 5 minutes I won't get back...

Gwlad wrote:

DirtyRucker7 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Actually England have had a good defence for a while now. Without looking I'm pretty sure England and Ireland have let in less tries than Wales in recent seasons. Our defence isn't that good any more, but we still hold the record for least tries conceded in a tournament. I can't see England breaking that record this year .

Why not? England could easily smash that record i honestly see us not conceding a try this tournament, we have the Irish next who just kick chase,the Welsh all we have to do is get Itoje tackling Jamie Roberts and they won't get into our half let alone a try and then the French whom we love spanking.

You're right, what we'll do is sell you Jamie route 1, note your wings defending deep, get it wide quick, jog to the 22, chip chase to Gareth Davies who will pick up and score under the posts.

Simple

Not a chance. Haskell will be standing there, still trying to work out 'what this big padded thing is' that stopped him scoring a try once.

Fanster wrote:Beshocked, I totally get what your saying, but is consistency what your describing?

Winning the 6N isn't about winning 4/5 games, it's pulling that little extra out of the bag when required, it's fighting through injuries, weather and hostile away crowds, and it's dealing with the pressure.

Englands win rate has always been up there through their huge talent pool, and infrastructure, but win rate doesn't give you that trophy.

Last 4/5 years England have had the exact same point score, however each year there has been a team better than them, a team capable of that little more when England weren't.

For me the magic of winning is that tiny little margin between the champions, and the rest.

All that said it's hard to look past England this year, Ireland have MORE injuries, Wales have to travel to Twickenham, and France hardly look world beaters. The Grand slam is a real possibility also

I agree, win rate doesn't give you that trophy but you would think that eventually if England keep winning they'll get over the line.

To be honest you can call any contest devalued if you see it that way. In the end team X can only beat what is in front of them.

There has been one poster in particularly devaluing both Italy and Scotland. Whilst neither are two of the strongest sides, one came into the 6 nations very confident after in their opinion a very good world cup and they were arguably robbed by the ref vs Australia, they believe they have good players and some indeed are, the other were unlucky to beat France with poor reffing decisions going the way of France. Italy got thrashed by England but then again England have the player pool which can act as a strength and weakness.

It should be reminded that England's depth is both a blessing and a curse. It's a curse because some talented youngsters are left with insufficient gametime whereas if they played for other nations they would have likely been fast tracked long time ago. Also it helps tempt some players to play for other countries.

Look at Tomas Francis as an example, an Englishman who wanted to play international rugby so was fast tracked into the Welsh squad, if he decided to play for England, he would have struggled to get any gametime. Already 9 caps for Wales. He chose the easier option to international rugby.

That's one thing I would say Wales have been better than England at. More willing to take risks at the right time. Whereas England have taken risks but generally make poor decisions.

Eddie Jones treatment of the likes of Daly,Beaumont and especially George has been poor. It's frustating being an England fan because we have all the resources but squander them time and again.

Poor choice of captain too of course.

Winning 5/5 isn't easy in the 6 nations. As an England fan I know this. 2/2 so far is good even though we've seen it before.

It's only poor treatment if he's picking players you wouldn't.

No 7 & 1/2 it's because I believe in picking players on form. Not just picking players irrespective of form.

even you have to realise that 15 minutes of game time in 4 weeks for the in form hooker in England, Jamie George is nonsensical.

I know it's a habit of yours to defend poor decisions but come on....

Eddie Jones has put himself in a difficult position because he's stuck with Hartley, Hartley played poorly vs Italy but he gets a free pass because he's captain. His poor throwing has been blamed on Kruis too. Not my fault guv - it was that other bloke's fault the lineout malfunctioned. Whereas I have the realistic viewpoint - both were to blame but Kruis did an awful lot more round the park whilst Hartley gave away a brainless penalty for example.

Could have easily been sorted out by picking the in form hooker, George with his in form team mate, Kruis. It's a no brainer. Two players who aren't known as discipline liabilties.

Shock horror when in form players play well.

Still think England will regret sticking with penalty machine Haskell too, could have got Yced vs Italy.

Still too many penalty liabilties in the team and yes that includes the brainless Farrell.

You would absolutely hate a team picked purely on club form.

Sadly Kruis didn't call the lineout well vs italy, Hartley will continue as our best hooker but it does open the door slightly to Itoje at 6. The issue there for me is we were too slow to the breakdown which also opens the door slightly to Clifford. I wouldn't pick them both to start though.

Any team picked solely on current form would change every single week.

Jan 1st - form 7 was Teimana Harrison
Feb 1st - form 7 was Dave Ward
Mar 1st - form 7 could well be Luke Wallace (or Harry Thacker )


Current form 9 is Robson - do we drop one of Care/Youngs to select him?
The form 3 when EPS was selected was Petrus DuPlessis, form 6 Don Armand. Shoudl they have been selected?


Form gets you noticed - but selection needs to look at more than just that.

no 7 & 1/2 you can't purely on club form but have to factor everything in.

Hartley isn't our best hooker though.... so far he's been solid vs Scotland and poor vs Italy. Not good.... Whereas George has played better in both despite getting mere scraps of gametime.

When your hooker throws like a muppet it doesn't help. I criticised T.Youngs for his poor throwing, don't see why Hartley should get a free ride.

I want the best for England irrespective of the club they play for. Clifford and Hill have looked good too.

Perhaps someone new needs to be introduced vs Ireland in the backrow, would rather have put someone new in vs Scotland and Italy as a starter though.

Londontiger it's about consistency. George has been the in form hooker for a long time now. Not just one or two matches.

He's played well in his scraps of gametime for England, can't do more. All he can do is pray Hartley gets injured as it seems it's the only way he'll ever get to start. Of course it's not good to wish a fellow England player gets injured but it seems to be the only way.Would help LCD too.

Also who is the form player, or the better player is completely subjective. I can believe one player is better than another and in better form - but Jones can think differently. It is then whether I am open-minded enough to see there is logic in his choice - even if I disagree with it.

So I feel George should have been starting - but am prepared to admit there were no outstanding choices for captain. Thus there is logic in what Jones has done and i will wait till the end of the 6Ns before judging his decision.

anyone who tries to use 3 minutes of gametime against an exhausted team as any justification is being idiotic.

LondonTiger wrote:anyone who tries to use 3 minutes of gametime against an exhausted team as any justification is being idiotic.

Does that 3 minutes ignore the several seconds taken doing that superb early lineout throw to the Italian?

Londontiger you can interpret it as subjective if you want but numerous knowledgeable folk voted George in their best AP XV of last season.

Even I know can see why Eddie Jones picked Hartley but weighing up the pros and cons I think it's a poor decision because it limits our hooker development. I haven't been proven wrong so far. I said a similar thing about George in the RWC and again I feel like I was proven right.

You are right there were no outstanding choices for captain but I would have picked the captain on a game by game basis.

Picking your best 23 then captain, not captain and hamper yourself with someone who arguably isn't the best in their position.

My viewpoints really aren't that different from others. I am just more vocal of my disapproval.

Whose fault is it if player X only gets 3 minutes of gametime? The coach of course.

lostinwales I think a try assist is a tiny bit more important but each to their own I guess....

Hartley is a quality hooker, personally I don't think you need a very strong imagination to think of reasons why he's being picked. Geroge at the moment is the guy pushing him and showing decent form off the bench. If we're looking to drop a hooker with a strong lineout after one mediocre game along with our 2nd strongest lineout lock I think we're looking at the wrong things.

We have 2 strong options at hooker now with a solid setpiece game. I don't think George is a far superior player to Hartley so not bothered he hasn't started yet.

no 7 & 1/2

Sadly we'll never truly know if George is better than Hartley because he's only been given mere scraps of gametime off the bench. George has done what he can and I personally think in that small time he's looked better but sadly he's still unproven as a starter. New coach, same problem.

The way the hooker situtation looks at the moment:

Hartley = undroppable, experienced and will be retained regardless of form, solid vs Scotland, poor vs Italy.
George = has played well but basically no gametime.
LCD= no gametime.

If Hartley does indeed pick up an injury we'll be left with two hookers with basically no gametime.

Eddie Jones claims he'll look at the 23 but is ignoring hooker at the moment.

lostinwales wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:anyone who tries to use 3 minutes of gametime against an exhausted team as any justification is being idiotic.

Does that 3 minutes ignore the several seconds taken doing that superb early lineout throw to the Italian?

No, as the 3 minutes was against Scotland.

We haven't got time to give all new players time on the pitch immediately. Too many good players. I don't think that you're right in your assumption we'll never see George start under Jones either but we do have to consider Georges performance from the bench comes against a tored Scotland and Italy. He's done exactly as we hoped for but look at Vunipola's impact vs Scotland vs starting against Italy.

If Hartley's injured I would expect Youngs to be picked myself as cover from the bench to George.

I think leadership is important, and as EJ is not going for Robshaw there is only Hartley for this key role at the moment. I don't expect that situation to last.

Next year it could well be that George will be installed at 2 with LCD on the bench, and captain whoever of the young guns that EJ thinks will be best at it.

no 7 & 1/2 if we have too many good players why couldn't we win a GS? Why did we fail in the RWC? It's because our players haven't been good enough... Our bench was poor vs Wales too. Our back up for the likes of B.Youngs and Billy V weren't good enough. Our so called famous depth was not good enough. Webber wasn't good enough Our centres weren't good enough etv.

England have a lack of world class players, we all know this but there's been poor decision making which has hampered the efforts to develop them.

lostinwales why always wait till next year? Lancaster's squandering of George was a poor decision, Eddie Jones needs to learn from this. Not emulate him.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 if we have too many good players why couldn't we win a GS? Why did we fail in the RWC? It's because our players haven't been good enough... Our bench was poor vs Wales too. Our back up for the likes of B.Youngs and Billy V weren't good enough. Our so called famous depth was not good enough. Webber wasn't good enough Our centres weren't good enough etv.

England have a lack of world class players, we all know this but there's been poor decision making which has hampered the efforts to develop them.

lostinwales why always wait till next year? Lancaster's squandering of George was a poor decision, Eddie Jones needs to learn from this. Not emulate him.

Because leadership is important, like having a decent kicker. At this moment EJ has decided that Hartley is the best option, but I am sure that someone else will put their hand up soon enough, at which point Hartley will have to work very hard to retain his place in the squad. (Which is a rewording of what I already wrote).