Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 the attack hasn't been outstanding but it's done the job so far.

Geordiefalcon not hype when the bloke delivers,delivers and delivers. I've talked him up and he's done what I thought he would.

Slade needs to prove himself. For what's it worth I think he will but let's see him do it.


lostinwales true there is no guarantee he would have but it's not like he's struggled at international level so far to find his feet. I still believe if he was given opportunities in the RWC warm ups, he could have been a success story for Lancaster. Instead Lancaster was transfixed with Burgess being his match winner.

Poorfour it's about backing up the talk.

I like Clifford and Slade but they still need their breakthroughs.

Fraction more in terms of performance? - haven't heard anyone talking about Clifford as someone who should be in the team of the tournament.

Want Clifford to overhaul Haskell or Robshaw, Slade to overhaul Farrell but hasn't happened yet.

But he has. And had he not been injured I have no doubt he would have started at 12 and shone like Itoje has at lock.

You cant say one thing about one player and something else about another when theres barely any difference.

Itoje got his chance, Slade didn't due to injury. But he's passed all the tests hes had in club games in Europe etc...which is how you backed Itoje!

no 7 & 1/2 I'd agree with you on there being plenty of room for improvement in attack.

Depends what you mean as good. The attack last year was laughably poor vs Ireland last year.

Attack isn't necessarily just about tries, it's about scoring points and forcing the opposition back.

England created plenty, bit wasteful at times.

Did the job 5 times of scoring more points than the opposition scored against us!

The attack against Ireland was under par, pack well beaten, beaten in the air, beaten by Sexton at the top of his game. Only when he went off were we in it. I have no argument if you want to look purely on wins as I've said, but it is limited as a tool to judge how well a team has played.

Geordiefalcon showing up well in RWC warm ups isn't really proving oneself properly.

If he hadn't been injured he would have shone..... we just don't know. That's my point. Players need a proper opportunity to prove themselves whether it's Daly,George,Clifford,Itoje,Slade.

Itoje was fortunate that Launchbury was injured but took his chance. Still work to do though.

Slade is still waiting for his proper chance to shine at international level.

I hope he does. I want Slade to solve the problem position at 12.

Your quite hypocritical Beshocked

No I am not - A player has to prove themselves. I want players to be given opportunities to do so.

In the case of Itoje he's got his opportunity and taken it. Slade has been unfortunate with injuries, I hope in the summer he'll prove himself too.

I want Clifford to get a chance as a starter at some point too. Let's see what they can do.

Eh?

You wanted Itoje in the WC warm ups. If he'd have impressed you'd be crying for him to make the WC squad?!?!

Sgt Pooly I want England to do well. It's a no brainer to pick the players who will give the best chance of victory.

Are you going to eat humble pie yet after all your criticisms of Itoje?

You did say new players shouldn't start big games or against traditionally strong teams. Most realised that wasn't what you meant.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The attack against Ireland was under par, pack well beaten, beaten in the air, beaten by Sexton at the top of his game. Only when he went off were we in it. I have no argument if you want to look purely on wins as I've said, but it is limited as a tool to judge how well a team has played.

Are you talking about the Ireland game this year 7.5?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You did say new players shouldn't start big games or against traditionally strong teams. Most realised that wasn't what you meant.

no 7 & 1/2 in general no it's not ideal.

I would have preferred Itoje's first start to be in a warm up game in the RWC but that was not possible. As Lancaster did not trust Itoje, I wanted him to be on the bench vs Scotland with potentially a start vs Italy. This did not happen either but he proved himself in the end anyway.

bluestonevedder wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The attack against Ireland was under par, pack well beaten, beaten in the air, beaten by Sexton at the top of his game. Only when he went off were we in it. I have no argument if you want to look purely on wins as I've said, but it is limited as a tool to judge how well a team has played.

Are you talking about the Ireland game this year 7.5?

2015 one.

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You did say new players shouldn't start big games or against traditionally strong teams. Most realised that wasn't what you meant.

no 7 & 1/2 in general no it's not ideal.

I would have preferred Itoje's first start to be in a warm up game in the RWC but that was not possible. As Lancaster did not trust Itoje, I wanted him to be on the bench vs Scotland with potentially a start vs Italy. This did not happen either but he proved himself in the end anyway.

Very rarely do you get ideal conditions. Ar least we can put that to bed and just say if the player is deemed good enough it doesn't matter who they are introduced against.

Itoje has been great this 6N Beshocked, really impressive. I never said he was poor player.

I only said he wasn't ready for the WC and needed to prove himself, which he has.

No humble pie involved, the lad has stepped up.

The England attack seemed to struggle as it only had two plays.

Either pass the ball through the hands from 10-14 or get the ball to the 13 who runs a loop with 10. Both were more often then not pretty easily read.

I guess that comes from a lack of experience as a combination between 9-15, a lack of form at 10, 13 and 15 and a guy out of position at 12.

It's no wonder Nowell was almost anonymous in attack except on crash balls from scrums all tournament. And that Watsons only input came from (some outstandingly taken) high balls that he fielded like a pro.

Hopefully by summer the Bath boys will have got their mojo back. Farrell/Slade will do better at 12 and Brown will have carried on his up surge of form for Quins.

On a side note I'm really torn by Brown. His character, leadership and all round game is brilliant. But he just wastes so many opportunities with his decision making, at international level your 15 can't do that.

Totally agree Yap, Brown has drove me mad this 6N.

He's such a head down player which I've not hugely noticed before. He has zero awareness of what is going on around him.

I think we'll soon be seeing a back 3 of:

11. May
14. Nowell/?
15. Watson

Watsons been great in the air.

In the end I'd like to see Yarde, Nowell and Watson in the back three

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Totally agree Yap, Brown has drove me mad this 6N.

He's such a head down player which I've not hugely noticed before. He has zero awareness of what is going on around him.

He offers a lot, but when he ran away from Tuilagi's break during the second Test against NZ, it became clear that he's not blessed with great awareness. Fine taking a line on a crash ball, but limited elsewhere.

yappysnap wrote:The England attack seemed to struggle as it only had two plays.

Either pass the ball through the hands from 10-14 or get the ball to the 13 who runs a loop with 10. Both were more often then not pretty easily read.

I guess that comes from a lack of experience as a combination between 9-15, a lack of form at 10, 13 and 15 and a guy out of position at 12.

It's no wonder Nowell was almost anonymous in attack except on crash balls from scrums all tournament. And that Watsons only input came from (some outstandingly taken) high balls that he fielded like a pro.

Hopefully by summer the Bath boys will have got their mojo back. Farrell/Slade will do better at 12 and Brown will have carried on his up surge of form for Quins.

On a side note I'm really torn by Brown. His character, leadership and all round game is brilliant. But he just wastes so many opportunities with his decision making, at international level your 15 can't do that.

What makes things difficult is that he has created the situations through making great line breaks which he then messes up by missing the pass. Another player might see the passes but would never make the same line breaks in the first place.

Frustrating isn't it?

I would like to see Watson play at 15 though, perhaps last 30 with Daly coming into the wing

I think Watson or Nowell will move to 15 quite soon actually.

I too noticed Brown's negatives far more this 6n and it wont have been missed by Jones either.

Those two lads can make the breaks but have a more heads up approach.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a bit of that trialled in Australia.

It wouldn't surprise me if they tried Daly at FB.

Is it that in the recent past brown makes a break and goes to ground, but this 6 nations other backs have kept up with him so we notice the lack of a pass more?

It was very frustrating, but good that we are creating the opportunities

beshocked wrote:No I am not - A player has to prove themselves. I want players to be given opportunities to do so.

In the case of Itoje he's got his opportunity and taken it. Slade has been unfortunate with injuries, I hope in the summer he'll prove himself too.

I want Clifford to get a chance as a starter at some point too. Let's see what they can do.

Oh yes you are

rozakthegoon wrote:Is it that in the recent past brown makes a break and goes to ground, but this 6 nations other backs have kept up with him so we notice the lack of a pass more?

It was very frustrating, but good that we are creating the opportunities

Good point.

I do think Watson is probably the most improved player for England after Kruis. Last year we had the dancing feet but not always a lot else. This year he's been physical and much more involved - and the kick chase thing has improved hugely

Ford, Farrell and Brown have all missed overlaps during this 6Ns. They get a momentary split second to make the pass and all have spectacularly missed it. Brown's was just the most recent. Which players are looking like they could be bettered on the international stage? For me they are.

Mako V - His scrummaging just doesn't fill me with confidence, we must have a rock solid scrum and Mako doesn't fit the bill. With Marler, two other Looseheads needed.
Farrell (12) - Surely we can find 3 better inside centres in England? He is a player playing out of position which is never a good idea. Ford, Farrell and one other at least need to cover the 10 position.
Robshaw - Very good defensively but does miss the odd tackle. A really top class flanker won't miss any.
Haskell - Been impressed this year but surely age is against him. We need another 4 flankers to cover both positions.
Cole - Big but a constant penalty machine. Surely they've spoken enough about discipline in the team room to come to the conclusion that Cole is just thick? Brookes, Hill and one other needed.

Similar situation in the backs probably.

It looks like Eddie has got plenty on his plate and several top quality (Itoje-like) players to find in several positions. We have a very long way to go but Eddie is on it.

If we apply a negative to Cole on pens what about Itoje?

englandglory4ever wrote:
Robshaw - Very good defensively but does miss the odd tackle. A really top class flanker won't miss any.

I think that's more to do with the defensive system than Robshaw personally. Last season I think he missed perhaps 2 in over 70 tackles in the 6N. This season, England overall missed more tackles than any other team - but conceded fewer points.

Gustard's press defence means that the defensive line come up very quickly, sometimes with a deliberate kink or dogleg. It means that they miss tackles more frequently, because the line isn't static, but they eat up the opposition's space. It was telling how many times England made tackles behind the gainline - but at the cost of conceding more linebreaks. In addition, Robshaw was often used as a cover tackler in Ford and Farrell's channels, meaning he was covering a wide part of the pitch and covering for missed tackles in the line in front of him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If we apply a negative to Cole on pens what about Itoje?

Cole has a long history of penalties. I'd give Itoje a little space before calling him in to question over penalties. I suspect when they get to the bit about discipline Cole nods off.

I think we just need to look at that a little closer rather than just counting them up that's all.

No 7 & 1/2 Cole's penalty count was much higher than that of Itoje. Don't remember Itoje being YCed either but perhaps I missed that part?

Itoje's penalty count was too high, an area he needs to work on but doesn't make him in the same league as Cole when it comes to discipline.

Geordiefalcon no.

Simply using it as an example of you really need to look at the issue in more detail than the amount of pens given away beshocked. Cole gave away one last match for holding on as support was poor for example. It's just an example of where players are treated a little differently as it's used to back up a thought rather than use that info to come to a conclusion. I remember a player being picked out as they knocked a ball on and gave field position to the opposition, pens are a worse wasy of doing this yet some get away without the focus on them.

no 7 & 1/2

I believe in consequence more. A missed tackle,penalty given away is not good but it's importance is more so if it proves costly.


Dan Cole's YC very costly.

Jack Nowell's knock on very costly.

Itoje's penalties given away were less than them.

We would be talking more about Cole's discipline if it cost us the match. In the end it didn't.

You'll notice I am not ignoring Itoje's penalties given away or missed tackles but the opposition did not successfully capitalise.

Itoje's positives outweighed his negatives too of course.

Coles wasn't costly at all, we didn't lose. All about the match outcome! This I would consider slightly hypocritical by the way!

lostinwales wrote:

rozakthegoon wrote:Is it that in the recent past brown makes a break and goes to ground, but this 6 nations other backs have kept up with him so we notice the lack of a pass more?

It was very frustrating, but good that we are creating the opportunities

Good point.

I do think Watson is probably the most improved player for England after Kruis. Last year we had the dancing feet but not always a lot else. This year he's been physical and much more involved - and the kick chase thing has improved hugely

Watson also still has that look of a kid about him (as does ford) some players seem to mature quicker, I think a year or 2 on Watson (and ford) will see huge steps from them in confidence.

I think it's easy to forget how young some of these players are, I think about how different I personally was in confidence and just in my own skin between 21 and 26 and its huuuuggeee

Normal service resumed........BS against the world.

Well we still conceded 2 tries with Cole in the bin. Would be talking it more if it was more costly.

Still need to look to improve.

Let's be clear - England's (including Cole's) current discipline WILL lose us close games in the future. Unless we turn it around. But discipline has been a problem for England for some years so I won't hold my breath. I remember Jonno as coach blaming the refs all those years ago.

We do need to improve, completely agree. We do give away far too many penalties, but it's not necessarily the fault of the guys whose name goes against them. Coles binning was a team thing most of all. It's not all Coles fault. Giving players a free ride for some pens and nailing some others isn't necessarily going to be a good thing. We need to focus on where stupid choices or poor technique are the focus. You could say the Cole yellow was one of these but I'm not sure he did too much wrong, I would suggest if he'd just waved them through a few team members may have been pointing the finger as well.

beshocked wrote:Well we still conceded 2 tries with Cole in the bin. Would be talking it more if it was more costly.

Still need to look to improve.

But it's a bit daft to assign all the blame for those tries to Cole. For one thing, the YC was picked up slowing down Welsh ball in a dangerous position so arguably was the right time to take a risk. Secondly, Eddie deserves some of the blame for putting too many bench players on - particularly Manu, whose defensive positioning was a big contributor to the first of the two tries. Thirdly, the ref and TMO totally bottled the Francis decision. 14 against 14 I don't think those tries would have been scored.

The papers witter on about discipline, but it's clear that Eddie has asked the team to play more on the edge and thus far it has worked. England conceded more penalties, more lost rucks and more missed tackles than any other team in the tournament. But fewer tries, fewer points, and fewer losses. The balance may need to change to start winning against the SH sides, but I would expect Eddie to have a plan for that.

beshocked wrote:Well we still conceded 2 tries with Cole in the bin. Would be talking it more if it was more costly.

Still need to look to improve.

What a complete joke.

Cole's yellow was more of a team yellow if I recall rightly.

Our scrum at least got parity and got on top against most sides with Cole as the anchor. It's easy to suggest to replace a top class option at TH as we have loads of proven options there?!?!?

14 penalties and the YC Dan Cole conceded in the tournament. He's going to cost us an important game sooner or later.

Not suggesting we have anyone better right now....but his discipline is not good enough.

And whats the breakdown of those? My point being he does some stupid stuff, but he's also been pinged for instictively ctaching the ball in an offside position, holding on, there'll be scrum pens in there which sometimes seem a lottery etc.

Dan Cole is an habitual offender, who accepts penalties as an occupational hazard, and presumably accepts sinbins in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit him to the maximum term allowed for these offences: he will be banned from the England team for five years.

Cole is still the best TH England have got but doesn't change that he needs to sort out his discipline.


no 7 & 1/2 not my fault guv, it was that other bloke seems to be the theme with you.

What I want from the England players is an improvement and tightening up discipline is exactly that.

Cole needs to sort his discipline out as do other players too. It's not just Cole, he just happens to have been the worst offender.

Sgt Pooly team yellow which happened to be shown to Cole, the player with the most penalties conceded for England in the 6 nations.

Poorfour it's a fact England conceded 2 tries with Cole in the bin, it wasn't all down to him but a YC can act as a momentum shift. Not always of course but more often than not - I believe an average of 7 points are scored with a man in the bin.

Francis should have been sent off but he wasn't. We won't know what would have happened with 14 vs 14 unfortunately.

The whole team needs to sort it's discipline but we've just won a grand slam....take time off from complaining!

So you won't even acknowledge the string of pens against England, its just Cole. You were pretty quick to criticise Hartley for 2 pens in 1 game, less so for Itoje. I guess I'd just like to see consistecy in your judgement rather than just bias to Saracens for once.

You'd think Hill or Brookes played for Saracens

BamBam wrote:You'd think Hill or Brookes played for Saracens

Especially as they play with that thug from Saints.

Doesn't help that Saints are going to try and show some real European pedigree to Sarries in a couple of weeks, without the "thug" I hope.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

BamBam wrote:You'd think Hill or Brookes played for Saracens

Especially as they play with that thug from Saints.

Doesn't help that Saints are going to try and show some real European pedigree to Sarries in a couple of weeks, without the "thug" I hope.

For his own sake, I hope he has a long holiday.

Which ref you got? (we have Owens for Stade's visit)