AJ versus Fury deja vu - are we all making the same mistakes again...??

by TopHat24/7 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 12:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Last time Fury fought a 6'6" lean muscled hard-hitting world champion, mine, and most peoples', analyis was set out something like this:

Wlad advantages:

Power
Fitness
Strength
Handspeed
Footspeed (for someone so big)

Fury advantages:

Height/Reach
Recovery powers

Now we're talking about him fighting another, albeit much greener, one and once again everyone is producing pretty much the same analysis. If/when they do fight, is Fury not going to mug us all off again?

There are still Q's over AJ's stamina (which don't seem to be there for the pudgier Fury), Fury showed versus Wlad that his ungainly style is actually quite effective in terms of movement as opposed to AJ's still slightly stiff stance, the heigh/reach advantage could still really tell and, finally, Fury doesn't look like he gets rattled and will be all confidence & bravado to unsettle the young challenger.

On the flip side, AJ's seems to have the killer instinct in spades which Wlad clearly didnt, will likely maintain higher output than Wlad did and seems happy to take a shot (when you consider Fury doesn't hit that hard).

So, what does everyone think, are we under-estimating Fury (again)?

Fool me once.......

by EX7EY Mon 11 Apr 2016, 4:57 pm

Dude what are you on about? I'm talking about dillian white....

I'm saying, I don't see him being a name of note on AJs CV when he hangs them up.

We're having different conversations here fella

by TopHat24/7 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:00 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
EX7EY wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
EX7EY wrote:Some people saying the Whyte win will all depend on what Whyte goes on to do. While obviously true, Whyte is average at best. So I doubt very much he will be a stand out name on AJ's resume at the end of his career.

Whyte was written off with no chance before the fight on here and if you go back and watch the fight he was extremely average ability wise IMO. Other than rocking AJ in the 2nd he was poor. So to go from a domestic clash with an opponent of Whytes quality to a 'World title' fight just shows the state of boxing right now.

And the hype train rolls on

Your conclusion being based on......?

Chis was seen as average/domestic, it was only when Fury went on to bigger things (with many think Chis troubled him/shoud've won their first) and Chis performed so well versus old Vit that people suddenly labelled him some kind of gate-keeper.

My conclusion is based on watching him fight. And watching him fight Joshua. He lacks basic fundamentals which resulted in him spending a lot of the fight off balance and there for the taking, and he's unfit as well.

But not based on watching Fury fight, presumably? Or their performances versus both shared and similar opponenents?

FYI there are 16 semi-conscious men who'd love you to pop round and point out all those fundamental failings in AJ's technique which they could/should have taken advantage of.

Curious how you 'know' he's unfit too. He's got to the 3rd round only twice and the 7th round once in his career. Whilst there are understandable concerns that someone so muscled might suffer fatigue (not evidenced by his numerous training videos which he posts) he's shown no evidence of it thus far (compared to, say, Haye in his first world title fighter or, later, versus Chisora).

Made a pretty good muppet of myself there!

I think Whyte isn't special, but he's enough to be dangerous on today's scene, would like to see him in with some other Top10-15 guys to see.

by djlovesyou Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:04 pm

hazharrison wrote:I'd also favour Fury to win right now (and this year). Good chin, game, awkward as hell and more experienced. It's a good fight but it could be a great fight in 18 months (should Fury repeat his win over Wlad and AJ ping Haye out).

When has his chin ever really been tested?

The only guy he's faced that you would describe as a huge puncher was Wlad and he didn't throw anything.

by EX7EY Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:08 pm

Ha. All good toppy. Wires crossed!

by Guest Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:10 pm

If Whyte was going to make it, he'd have done it before now. Very few late bloomers in this sport

by TopHat24/7 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:19 pm

djlovesyou wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I'd also favour Fury to win right now (and this year). Good chin, game, awkward as hell and more experienced. It's a good fight but it could be a great fight in 18 months (should Fury repeat his win over Wlad and AJ ping Haye out).

When has his chin ever really been tested?

The only guy he's faced that you would describe as a huge puncher was Wlad and he didn't throw anything.

Wlad landed only 52 punches in 12 rounds!! Throwing a mere 231. Pathetic. Only time I could remember Wlad connecting with anything meaningful was in the 12th when he then made Fury look a little in trouble.

by kingraf Mon 11 Apr 2016, 5:45 pm

Fury landed the altogether more imperious 86 punches in twelve rounds. ie Fury was landing seven punches per round. ie The phrase "he was a little less bad than Wlad" is 100% spot on.

by Lance Mon 11 Apr 2016, 6:03 pm

I don't see how picking the bones out of Furys win can achieve anything. Would Hearn let Joshua near Wlad? Even now? No chance.

Joshua won't even be fighting top 20 opponents until they risk a huge fight with Haye.

by hazharrison Mon 11 Apr 2016, 6:09 pm

djlovesyou wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I'd also favour Fury to win right now (and this year). Good chin, game, awkward as hell and more experienced. It's a good fight but it could be a great fight in 18 months (should Fury repeat his win over Wlad and AJ ping Haye out).

When has his chin ever really been tested?

The only guy he's faced that you would describe as a huge puncher was Wlad and he didn't throw anything.

He's been caught flush (back when he fought like an ape) and while he wobbled, went over, managed to rally. That's pretty unusual for a heavyweight (especially these days).

Seem to recall Wlad catching him (may have been in the final round) but he hung tough. He's no Chuvalo but he has a decent chin.

by djlovesyou Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:02 pm

hazharrison wrote:
djlovesyou wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I'd also favour Fury to win right now (and this year). Good chin, game, awkward as hell and more experienced. It's a good fight but it could be a great fight in 18 months (should Fury repeat his win over Wlad and AJ ping Haye out).

When has his chin ever really been tested?

The only guy he's faced that you would describe as a huge puncher was Wlad and he didn't throw anything.

He's been caught flush (back when he fought like an ape) and while he wobbled, went over, managed to rally. That's pretty unusual for a heavyweight (especially these days).

Seem to recall Wlad catching him (may have been in the final round) but he hung tough. He's no Chuvalo but he has a decent chin.

I would argue that being genuinely dropped by a guy like Pajkic is pretty good evidence that if he gets tagged properly by anyone with above average power, he's not going to see the end of the round.

I do appreciate he fought that fight like a moron and that they do say that any heavyweight is dangerous if they land, but I don't think someone with a decent chin gets dropped even if Pajkic lands clean. This is a heavy whose only stoppages in his whole career were against people who got knocked out for a living in 4 rounders. It was a proper knockdown too, the Cunningham one seemed more a balance thing, this one had him in a bit of trouble for quite a while.

I think for all of David Price's obvious flaws, that one punch in the Pajkic fight was the reason why the Fury team wanted no part of a fight with him, as although Fury is clearly the better fighter, it was still a massive risk.

by catchweight Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:08 pm

It would be mad to write Fury off against Joshua but a lot of people made up their mind about Fury long ago and arent going to change it irrespective of any contrary evidence.

Joshua is a big talent but so far his oppossition has been low enough calibre that he has got by from just being a wicked puncher. Fast, hard and accurate punches.

Fury is awkward awkward and rangy. He doesnt scare, his jab can be nuisance and he can mix it up pretty well. He has the proven ability to box 12 rounds at the highest level.

If he boxes like he did against Klitschko I think he would be a difficult puzzle for Joshua to solve as he isnt used to anything other than just blasting out uncomplicated opponents (only Whyte has actually turned up to punch back so far it seems).

If Fury boxes like he did againt Cunningham though he wont last long, powers or recovery or not.

by djlovesyou Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:15 pm

I think we need more evidence to ascertain what percentage of the Wlad fight was Fury's tactical brilliance and boxing ability and what was Wlad having a shocker.

As it stands, we also need more evidence as to how much of Joshua struggling against Whyte was Whyte's underrated ability or Joshua showing that he's fallible.

Which, I suppose, is the beauty of the sport.

by compelling and rich Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:45 pm

if AJ and fury fought tomorrow i would be fancying AJ by quite a bit, one good performance against a man who didn't throw a punch all night and suddenly fury is everybodys cup of tea. look back on his fights previously to see if he's ready for a big puncher. for anybody willing to let go, fury is there to be hit. as Cunningham and Pajkic showed. i know AJ hasnt fought anybody brilliant yet, but theres no denying his power and for me he gets to fury before fury gets to him every time. much quicker

if i was hearn id be chucking him in against fury as soon as possible. especially if he comes through the wlad rematch. all British unification fight

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:56 pm

Funny how we all see different things..I see a slow..poorly skilled...dodgy chinned hugger that won a title against a safety first one dimensional bully that crapped his load at the sight of someone bigger..

Joshua Ko 2..

by catchweight Mon 11 Apr 2016, 7:56 pm

Its amazing what winning the heavyweight championship of the word can do you for your rep

by RanjitPatel Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:03 pm

I have warmed to Joshua lately but the Sky hype machine taking over Facebook and Twitter makes me want Fury to beat him. There's articles everywhere that attract the type of fans that think Mayweather has retired to duck Joshua. Really annoying folk but it's these people that make PPV stars.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:07 pm

Even sadder is the fact people are puking on Joshua because he's a Hearn fighter...Simple as..

No sane individual can give the lumbering Fury a chance..

A laughing stock before he beat a heart-less old lump that got upset when someone tried to hit him back..

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:12 pm

Nobody sane? You're full of it watch Joshua vs Whyte. He isn't perfect.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:14 pm

You don't need to be perfect to wipe Fury out, if he had Whyte's chin or power that fight might have some relevance.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:21 pm

He beat a world champ that reigned for a decade. It's enough to suggest he gives Bruno mark 2 a run.

Fury will beat Joshua. Can't wait to put money on it. Sky is offering evens for Fury if it happens.

by catchweight Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:22 pm

You would be daft to write off either boxer. Fury has been written off time and time again yet here he is, British, Commonwealth, European and Heavyweight champion of the world.

Joshua is a great prospect who is at a more advanced stage than Fury was after a comparitive number of fights and seems to have the potential to go further. But hes basically only fought one person thats turned up to give it a go and that was Dillian Whyte.

by kingraf Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:27 pm

The fact that the likes of Cunningham and McDermott and Pajkic turned up to "give it a go" against Fury doesn't speak much for him though.

Look the guy isn't awful. He's certainly an awkward night's worse. 6'9 85 inch reach and an ability to competently switch hit certainly make him a difficult mountain to overcome. But he isn't manna from heaven

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:29 pm

None of them are great, including Ronnie Coleman. Sorry AJ.

by djlovesyou Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:31 pm

catchweight wrote:You would be daft to write off either boxer. Fury has been written off time and time again yet here he is, British, Commonwealth, European and Heavyweight champion of the world.

Joshua is a great prospect who is at a more advanced stage than Fury was after a comparitive number of fights and seems to have the potential to go further. But hes basically only fought one person thats turned up to give it a go and that was Dillian Whyte.

That's the thing really, we have no real idea of a lot of Joshua's opponents intentions in terms of 'giving it a go' cause as soon as Joshua landed clean, their options for 'giving it a go' became very limited.

Whyte stood up to Joshua's power better than the rest, simple as that.

Martin could have had all the best intentions in the world, but if he decided to give it a go, that fight probably ends halfway through round 1 and we're exactly in the position where we are now.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:37 pm

Competently switch hit..

He's the worse southpaw I've seen since Bruno in Tyson 2.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:44 pm

Nobody can accuse you of fence sitting. That's for sure.

Aj caliber of opposition, makes GGG's look like Tommy Hearns. Obviously Fury hasn't fought everyone, but he beat the man away from home.

Aj will feast on bums for the next couple of years. Similar to Brook.

by compelling and rich Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:49 pm

if fury comes through the wlad rematch successfully i dont see why anybody wouldn't want the unification fight. it would be a huge fight and something that hasnt happened before. make far too much financial sense for all parties. but then again i said that for years about manny and Floyd.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:56 pm

On one hand Adam you say that Fury will beat AJ and make the rest of us look silly but now you're saying he wouldn't even face him or Haye instead lining up a series of bums.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:58 pm

He won't fight Haye. Fury Is possible, but could be late next year. Bum of the month, to milk some easy dough first.

by catchweight Mon 11 Apr 2016, 8:59 pm

Who rates Fury as "manna from heaven"? Hes the heavyweight champion of the world and won it the legitimate way by toppling a long reigning champion (one incidentally who plenty of people on here rated as beatable only by the finest heavyweights in history). That alone should be all the evidence needed to give him a fair shout of beating a 16 fight Joshua.

Fury has boxed poorly in the past, it should be easy to spot the difference between the level of performances in those fight and the ones where he boxed well. Some people cant or choose not to because they just dont like the guy. As if the clownish performance aginst Cunningham or his half assed out of shape effort against McDermott is the only version if Fury there is. If he turned up in the kind of shape with the kind of performance he put in against McDermott the first time, he would clearly get beat by not just Joshua, but most heavyweights with a pulse. He would never have won any titles if he didnt have the ability to improve on those performances. If boxes like did against Klitschko, Im inclined to think its Joshua is the one with something to prove.

Fury is not nearly a certainty to get past Klitschko again anyway. But would Joshua have it in him to beat Klitschko as it stands now? One thing is for sure, we wont be finding out.

by compelling and rich Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:01 pm

f@*K haye, that bloke has wasted far too much of all our time. id say let him earn his way up the ranking so he's deserves a shot but boxing is that bent that he'd be number 1 contender after beating briggs

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:02 pm

AdamT wrote:He won't fight Haye. Fury Is possible, but could be late next year. Bum of the month, to milk some easy dough first.

You were saying he would fight Haye last night, they'll pursue Fury as quickly as possible knowing he's unlikely to hold onto the titles for long.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:03 pm

Even if AJ is the real deal, Hearn will give him cans for a while. Brook is arguably the best Ww, who has he fought??

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:04 pm

He won't fight Haye. Not yet.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:08 pm

Why should Haye work his way up the rankings getting millions for stiffs..

Give him a shot and make him fight somebody..

Then hopefully he'll p**s off for good...Like he should have done after the pitiful display in Germany..

No shame...No class.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:09 pm

Brook isn't a draw in a very marketable division, Joshua has the potential to be the biggest draw in world boxing therefore they can dictate to pretty much anybody.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:11 pm

He put up a better performance than your man Tubbs did against Tyson. Least he was in shape.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:13 pm

Biggest draw in boxing. The sport is f....d then.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:13 pm

Coming across negative tonight and I don't mean to...

Just that Haye's performance with the toe after thousands of Brits shelled out hard earned money to support him was diabolical..

Have more time for Fury who has bags of heart...Just think he's competent and nothing more..

Yep Wlad is just like Tyson..Adam

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:15 pm

AdamT wrote:Biggest draw in boxing. The sport is f....d then.

After all who wants to watch a big punching Heavyweight who tries to knock everyone out, bring back Mayweather.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:17 pm

No Tyson is great, but Tubbs stepped in to that fight, straight from KFC. Haye at least turned up in shape. It was a poor showing, but loads of heavies have done the same. Big Frank was a disgrace in Tyson rematch.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:18 pm

Heavy is the blue riband division...Always has been always will be...

The kid is a goldmine.

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:20 pm

Bandwagon brigade. I did the same wit McGregor.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:21 pm

Boxing isn't MMA, it means something in the UK.

by compelling and rich Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:23 pm

catchweight wrote:Who rates Fury as "manna from heaven"? Hes the heavyweight champion of the world and won it the legitimate way by toppling a long reigning champion (one incidentally who plenty of people on here rated as beatable only by the finest heavyweights in history). That alone should be all the evidence needed to give him a fair shout of beating a 16 fight Joshua.

Fury has boxed poorly in the past, it should be easy to spot the difference between the level of performances in those fight and the ones where he boxed well. Some people cant or choose not to because they just dont like the guy. As if the clownish performance aginst Cunningham or his half assed out of shape effort against McDermott is the only version if Fury there is. If he turned up in the kind of shape with the kind of performance he put in against McDermott the first time, he would clearly get beat by not just Joshua, but most heavyweights with a pulse. He would never have won any titles if he didnt have the ability to improve on those performances. If boxes like did against Klitschko, Im inclined to think its Joshua is the one with something to prove.

Fury is not nearly a certainty to get past Klitschko again anyway. But would Joshua have it in him to beat Klitschko as it stands now? One thing is for sure, we wont be finding out.

theres also reading too much into one win against a guy who was beyond awful on the night. would aj beat that version of wlad? yes course he would as wlad didn't throw a meaningful punch. over furys career weve seen probably more bad than good performances, wlad being bad or not you do have to give fury credit. so thats one good performance. any others of note?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:23 pm

Tubbs beat Page and Smith and lost contentious decisions to Witherspoon and Bowe....KO and Ring had him beating Bowe...Right before Holy..

Haye's beaten Audley..

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:24 pm

Ok who has Joshua beat then Truss??

by AdamT Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:25 pm

Mma means nothing, because people from the UK can't fight.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:26 pm

One can see the talent...Like GGG who hasn't fought anyone either. .

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:27 pm

The relevance of that being what exactly?

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