Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread XIII - Camp Crystal Meth

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

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Edinburgh & Glasgow Warriors

A Not So Brief History of Time-Wasting   (click to show/hide):

Guinness Pro12

Edinburgh - Fixtures & Results   (click to show/hide):

Youtube playlist of all of Edinburgh's Pro12 action here.

Glasgow Warriors - Fixtures & Results   (click to show/hide):

Youtube playlist of all of Glasgow's Pro12 action here.

Europe

Champions Cup - Glasgow Warriors   (click to show/hide):

Challenge Cup - Edinburgh   (click to show/hide):

1872 Cup

Champions                Runner up
Edinburgh                  Glasgow Warriors
 

1872 Cup - Past Results   (click to show/hide):

The season has commenced

[Hazel Sapling]

Good thing it was not televised. Poor result. I expect a reaction next week and see why Jones is taking his time over moving. Hoping Dunbar or Bennett get nicked by Cotter to play at Glasgow or just head off to Montpellier.

[RDW]

Unbelievably there was an Italian ref tonight - I'm not saying that's why we lost (sounds like we were absolutely Baws) but how was that ever a good decision by the Pro 12??

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Nice concise summary from the BBC this morning:

Against a side that shipped 134 points in their past two matches, had yet to register a win this season, had never won in Scotland, and failed to score a point on their previous two visits to Murrayfield, this was simply not good enough.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/37789492

[cakeordeath]

Edinburgh need to find a good coach. They have the players, although on last night's performance.....they are nowhere near the sum of all their parts. I think someone like the ex wallaby coach McKenzie would be a good shout

[BigGee]

That result, especially coming after such a decent performance last weekend against Quins, was a massive fall to earth for Edinburgh. Maybe Hodge should have realised that some of the players were spent after that effort and rotated a bit. Surely some of the players left out regularly must be showing some hunger to play.

Whatever the reason, that is a massive minus point in Hodge's chances of getting the job full time. Edinburgh have some decent players and can play, we saw that last week. Why are they so inconsistent?

[jimbopip]

It's the morning after... Glasgow's main problem is we have a surfeit of aggressive players who play like they actually care about winning.
Meanwhile, over at the Kath Kidstone Appreciation Society...

[RDW]

Hodge at least didn't try to sugar coat anything

Q: Were there any positives?
Hodge: No

http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/16/10/29/hodge-reflects-disappointing-night-capital

[BigGee]

Probably the only positive was that they did get themselves back into a winning position before throwing it away again!

I think that is a positive, but then again, maybe not

[R!skysports]

That is such a sad result it is not even worth taking the minor.

[George Carlin]

That result, especially coming after such a decent performance last weekend against Quins, was a massive fall to earth for Edinburgh. Maybe Hodge should have realised that some of the players were spent after that effort and rotated a bit. Surely some of the players left out regularly must be showing some hunger to play.

Whatever the reason, that is a massive minus point in Hodge's chances of getting the job full time. Edinburgh have some decent players and can play, we saw that last week. Why are they so inconsistent?

Agree with all of this, Biggie.

The players would have been bouncing after the Quins result and desperate to play again. It's a coaches job to know the squad well enough to know whether in actual fact a number of them have shot their bolt and contrary to their protests, actually need a rest instead.

I won't be too critical of Hodge because all of this decision making is new to him, but he's been with these players for a long time now and their mindset was clearly not right going into the Zebre game. I hope to see the whole match at some point to confirm, but if the reason that they lost the Zebre match is because they expected to walk it, then that is a fundemental coaching failing and is a check in the debit column for Hodge. There is absolutely no way that a side which beat a Quins team stuffed with England internationals should have lost to that Zebre side. No way and the good thing is that Hodge doesn't seem to be hiding the fact.

[R!skysports]

I think it is all well and good blaming the coaches but in fact that group of Edinburgh players have under performed for years now.

Maybe time to say it is NOT underperforming but actual their level

Get rid of some of the dead wood time??

[BigGee]

Trouble is they keep getting rid of deadwood and then replacing it with other deadwood!

That is actually a little off the mark, as Edinburgh do have some decent players. The inconsistency is maddening though!

[RDW]

Looking at the team there really weren't any players you'd class as deadwood - it was just a really disappointing performance where the entire team failed to turn up.

Gilchrist has come under flak in the comments section of Facebook.

[RDW]

London Scottish were pumped 62-12 by London Irish.

Blair Cowan looked a class above the rest, and for some reason was throwing in at the lineout!

[Eejit]

Tough day at the office for Scottish but were always up against it. Cowan was brilliant.

Not sure if it came across on tv but the Irish 14 is a 6ft4, 17 stone teenager. Frightening.

[tigertattie]

forgot about Cowan! Still a handy player

[des]

Looking at the team there really weren't any players you'd class as deadwood - it was just a really disappointing performance where the entire team failed to turn up.

Gilchrist has come under flak in the comments section of Facebook.

Gilchrist was rubbish, again. Mackenzie was much better when he came on, as he has been the last few games. They're a similar build but Mackenzie imposed himself much more. I think Gilchrist is scared of getting injured again.

The only other positive was SHC who made a huge difference when he come on. I didn't think Kennedy had looked bad (and was excellent last week) but the tempo was lifted significantly when SHC came on.

Final note before I erase my memory of this travesty, the way the breakdown was refereed was the polar opposite of last week. It felt like he was being unfairly harsh on us but we should have adjusted after the first 15 minutes or so.

[funnyExiledScot]

Hodge at least didn't try to sugar coat anything

Q: Were there any positives?
Hodge: No

http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/16/10/29/hodge-reflects-disappointing-night-capital

The honesty is welcome, but he probably knows this result is a massive black mark on his job application for the full time position.

Utterly depressing result.

[funnyExiledScot]

Looking at the team there really weren't any players you'd class as deadwood - it was just a really disappointing performance where the entire team failed to turn up.

Gilchrist has come under flak in the comments section of Facebook.

Gilchrist was rubbish, again.

Sounds like his inclusion in the Scotland squad is premature. Reputation is carrying him too far.

[RDW]

Sounds like Cotter pretty much knows his starting team already, and performances over the last few weeks won't count much for him.

Perhaps explains Gilchrist's Mr anonymous display on Friday night - again I would be very surprised if he's not involved in the squad against Australia though.

[George Carlin]

Sounds like Cotter pretty much knows his starting team already, and performances over the last few weeks won't count much for him.

Perhaps explains Gilchrist's Mr anonymous display on Friday night - again I would be very surprised if he's not involved in the squad against Australia though.

He needs to get his finger out. Being large doesn't preclude you from being dynamic. 

And once you leave primary school, it also doesn't automatically mean that you're any good at rugby. 

I would be pretty urined off if I was Ben Toolis.

[RDW]

I've probably defended Gilchrist more than most over the years and it is great that he's managed to get himself back to fitness and play almost every game this season without breaking himself, but his form really doesn't warrant Scotland selection.  He has had some games this season where I thought he's played well but Toolis carries much more effectively and seems to put in more work around the park, and our lineout has been really poor this season with Gilchrist running it.

Vern Cotter is a very experienced coach who knows what he's doing, but why is he so fixated on Gilchrist over the likes of Toolis? Is his leadership that good that he can 'do a Kellock' and not produce the goods on the pitch yet still get selected?

[funnyExiledScot]

I've probably defended Gilchrist more than most over the years and it is great that he's managed to get himself back to fitness and play almost every game this season without breaking himself, but his form really doesn't warrant Scotland selection.  He has had some games this season where I thought he's played well but Toolis carries much more effectively and seems to put in more work around the park, and our lineout has been really poor this season with Gilchrist running it.

Vern Cotter is a very experienced coach who knows what he's doing, but why is he so fixated on Gilchrist over the likes of Toolis? Is his leadership that good that he can 'do a Kellock' and not produce the goods on the pitch yet still get selected?

I've seen nothing to suggest that Gilchrist is a natural leader and, as you say, his lineout leadership has been poor as well. When Bresler is fit it's going to be hard to justify selecting Gilchrist in the Edinburgh 23 ahead of Bresler, Toolis and MacKenzie.

[RDW]

The Lions Facebook page has been doing a summary of players who stand a chance next summer. Gilchrist is in the running apparently, and Jamie Ritchie was one to watch as a potential bolter....

That level of journalism makes Iain Morrison look like an expert!

[sensisball]

The answer in nae, nae and thrice nae.

When he is "playing well" he is at best a fringe international standard lock. When he is not then I suspect he struggles to look good in the pro 12, which is a mile away from the intensity of Int. forward play, in most games.
 Perhaps the SRU thinks that if a player was good enough to go on the McPhail scholarship to NZ as a youngster it automatically means they will develop into an international standard player.

I have yet to see anything, even at his best, whatever that is, to suggest he is anything other than a decent scrummager who usually wins his own lineout ball.
All other contributions to a Scotland game appear to be optional, apart from throwing a couple of lovely long spin passes about 30 yards behind the gain line.
I don't understand the Gilchrist effect at all.

[RDW]

Here's the full article....

There's been plenty of activity at Edinburgh to start the season with Duncan Hodge stepping into the top job at the end of September as they look to challenge for a place in the Guinness PRO12 play-off places.

"Nel’s been a revelation as a scrummager, but he also scores a lot of tries."
In recent seasons they have enjoyed more success in Europe, including a Champions Cup semi-final back in 2012 and a Challenge Cup final in 2015.

But having built up a powerful pack which contributes plenty to Vern Cotter’s Scotland, the onus is now on Hodge to make the most of the Edinburgh backs.

Sunday Times Scottish Rugby Correspondent Mark Palmer follows the team closely, and believes the early signs under Hodge are good.

“I think the SRU see him following the Gregor Townsend template and hope he can take advantage of this opportunity,” he explains.

“He’s been given a run until the end of the season to stake a claim to keep the job permanently.

“The signs so far are that the players are enjoying it and they’ve already scored 16 tries in just two games. Regardless of the opposition, they got 55 all of last season, so it’s a promising start.”

LIONS CONTENDERS

When it comes to The British & Irish Lions, Edinburgh’s strength looks to be in the pack, where they have a number of Scotland internationals, including the entire front row.

Leading the way for many, including Palmer, is tighthead WP Nel, who has established himself over the four years in the Scottish capital, and on the Test scene since 2015.

“Nel has been outstanding since he came to the club,” said Palmer.

“He’s been a revelation as a scrummager, but he also scores a lot of tries even if he’d admit that most of them have come from a cumulative distance of about three metres

“He plays 80 minutes virtually every week and always wants to play, which isn’t that common for a tighthead.

“At this stage I think he’d be right in contention for a starting spot, and he’s also a great team guy so you’d think he’d be a good fit on Tour.”

The other two contenders for Palmer are also in the pack, flanker John Hardie and second row Grant Gilchrist, although he admits both face plenty of competition.

He added: “John Hardie was outstanding last year at the World Cup, and he also has the advantage of knowing New Zealand well.

“He’s incredibly hard-working and just a nuisance around the park. He doesn’t win that much ball on the deck, but makes up for it by being all over the place and he also gets a fair few tries from the back of mauls.

“Grant Gilchrist is another who was named Scotland captain by Vern Cotter when he first came in.

“Unfortunately he’s had a really tough run with injuries which means we’ve seen very little of him at Test level. Toulon tried to sign him last year but the SRU stepped in, so it shows how highly he’s rated in Scotland.

“There’s huge competition, firstly in Scotland with the Gray brothers, then with the Lions, but if he can stay healthy then he can start to push those guys.”

BOLTER POTENTIAL

Alongside their established internationals, Edinburgh have a number of players who have shone for Scotland Under-20s in recent seasons and are now starting to force their way into the first team plans.

Leading the way is winger Damien Hoyland, who racked up eight tries in the Guinness PRO12 last season and made his first Test start in the summer against Japan.

Palmer said: “When it comes to Lions bolters Hoyland is a really promising young winger.

“He needs to push himself into the Scotland team on a more regular basis but if he can do that then he could get into contention.”

As well as Hoyland, young back-row duo Magnus Bradbury and Jamie Ritchie are also edging closer to international radar, and while Palmer admits they will more likely be targeting 2021, he’s been impressed by what he’s seen so far.

“Jamie Ritchie broke into the team last year and is very flexible with his ability to play six and seven quite comfortably.

“He was very close to getting into the international team last year although in the end they decided he was probably better off going with the Under-20s, but he’s started this season well.

“Magnus Bradbury is a big guy and has really done well so far this year. Cornell du Preez is now eligible for Scotland but Bradbury has been playing ahead of him in some games. His mother is also going to become the first SRU female president so he’s from a strong rugby background.”

LIONS IN HISTORY

Edinburgh’s history stretches back as far as 1872, playing the first-ever inter-district game against Glasgow – and that tradition continues today with the 1872 Cup.

Their current iteration dates back to 1996 and the advent of professionalism and they have had representation on three Tours during the 2000s.

Simon Taylor featured both in 2001 in Australia, and four years later in New Zealand, while Mike Blair and Ross Ford were both selected to travel to South Africa in 2009.

Taylor and Blair have since retired, but Ford is still going strong, and Palmer believes added competition at hooker in Edinburgh could push him to reach top form.

“With Stuart McInally there as well Ross Ford has as much competition as he’s had in a while and that could really push him on,” he said.

“He’ll win his 100th cap in the autumn and he’s an incredible physical specimen. You’ve got to hope the extra competition could see him step up a bit more.”

[funnyExiledScot]

The Lions Facebook page has been doing a summary of players who stand a chance next summer.  Gilchrist is in the running apparently, and Jamie Ritchie was one to watch as a potential bolter....

That level of journalism makes Iain Morrison look like an expert!

That really is remarkable. With all players being fit, there's a good argument for Gilchrist not making the Edinburgh 23, and James Ritchie would be nowhere near it.

I don't think James Ritchie would make the top 50 blindside flankers eligible to play for the Lions.

[funnyExiledScot]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

[tigertattie]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

[RDW]

If we have our usual 6N (i.e. only beat Italy) I'd be surprised if we got more than 3 or 4 on tour. The only way that will increase is if we get 2 or 3 wins - it will be easy for Gatland to ignore our players if we lose to all the other teams.

[George Carlin]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

Yes, agree with Tatters. They don't have enough good tightheads not to take Nel.

I think that Gray would actually do a great job in a test alongside someone like Kruis with Itoje at 6.

He won't be given the chance, though. Obviously. The volume of man juice being sprayed around about Itoje and Kruis means that they'll start with someone like AWJ and his iron lung on the bench and someone insipid like Warbuton and a perpetually broken Sean O Brien on the flanks. I am already despairing.

Finn won't tour - he is not fashionable enough, is not as experienced as a lot of the other guys and will probably seen to too lightweight and too inconsistent at test level. Whether any of that is true or not is irrelevant - it will be the FatMan's perception.

What I hope we realise (but which Wazzerball does not permit) is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning the test series unless we take our most creative attacking players. If Hogg is jettisoned in favour of someone like Halfpenny I will open a vein.

[funnyExiledScot]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

What I hope we realise (but which Wazzerball does not permit) is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning the test series unless we take our most creative attacking players. If Hogg is jettisoned in favour of someone like Halfpenny I will open a vein.

Couldn't agree more. Whilst I could live with Liam Williams or Anthony Watson at 15, I really don't want Halfpenny at 15. He's a world class goal kicker, no question, and probably underrated as an attacking 15, but we'll need much more if we are to stand a hope against the ABs. If the Lions were playing on Saturday, I'd pick Hogg.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

What I hope we realise (but which Wazzerball does not permit) is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning the test series unless we take our most creative attacking players. If Hogg is jettisoned in favour of someone like Halfpenny I will open a vein.

Couldn't agree more. Whilst I could live with Liam Williams or Anthony Watson at 15, I really don't want Halfpenny at 15. He's a world class goal kicker, no question, and probably underrated as an attacking 15, but we'll need much more if we are to stand a hope against the ABs. If the Lions were playing on Saturday, I'd pick Hogg.

Ooh I don't know about that, can we trust him to ground the ball either on or over the try line rather than in front of it?

[George Carlin]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

What I hope we realise (but which Wazzerball does not permit) is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning the test series unless we take our most creative attacking players. If Hogg is jettisoned in favour of someone like Halfpenny I will open a vein.

Couldn't agree more. Whilst I could live with Liam Williams or Anthony Watson at 15, I really don't want Halfpenny at 15. He's a world class goal kicker, no question, and probably underrated as an attacking 15, but we'll need much more if we are to stand a hope against the ABs. If the Lions were playing on Saturday, I'd pick Hogg.

Ooh I don't know about that, can we trust him to ground the ball either on or over the try line rather than in front of it?

Still waiting to see these highlights.

[funnyExiledScot]

Here would be the sensible list of potential Scottish Lions for 2017.

Should go: Stuart Hogg.

Has a decent chance: WP Nel, Jonny Gray, John Hardie, Finn Russell, Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Tommy Seymour.

Outside bet: Frazer Brown, Ritchie Gray, Josh Strauss, Greg Laidlaw, Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland.

Bolters (i.e. uncapped): Cornell Du Preez.

Hogg, Nel and Jonny will tour

Bennett and Seymour may tour

Finn Russell is a bit of a long shot. Can't see him being picked over Sexton/Bigger/Ford/Farrell

What I hope we realise (but which Wazzerball does not permit) is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning the test series unless we take our most creative attacking players. If Hogg is jettisoned in favour of someone like Halfpenny I will open a vein.

Couldn't agree more. Whilst I could live with Liam Williams or Anthony Watson at 15, I really don't want Halfpenny at 15. He's a world class goal kicker, no question, and probably underrated as an attacking 15, but we'll need much more if we are to stand a hope against the ABs. If the Lions were playing on Saturday, I'd pick Hogg.

Ooh I don't know about that, can we trust him to ground the ball either on or over the try line rather than in front of it?

They'll be playing the ABs. No need to worry about grounding the ball anywhere.

[George Carlin]

https://www.606v2.com/t64381-scarlets-v-glasgow-warriors-5-november

[R!skysports]

I think I have worked out the Edinburgh plan

1. Play so poorly
2. no players are selected for the AI -
3. clean up in the league

Part one of the plan - check


:-)

[BigGee]

Rumours that Robinson is getting sacked by Bristol.

Fancy him back Edinburgh fans?

[RDW]

Yes, yes I would.

Would be harsh to sack him though - there's not a lot a coach can do if he's got significantly less resources than everyone else in the league!

[BigGee]

Yes, yes I would.

Would be harsh to sack him though - there's not a lot a coach can do if he's got significantly less resources than everyone else in the league!

I think he missed his chance with Bristol, taking to many goes to get back up. Missing out in the London Welsh year in particular was unforgivable. There were still some weaker teams in the premiership back then and they might have had a chance to stay up. This year, as you say, they are on a hiding to nothing.

[RDW]

Although noting the coach that Glasgow have been given next season I think it is only fair that Edinburgh are given someone of a similarly high calibre!

[des]

Yes, yes I would.

Would be harsh to sack him though - there's not a lot a coach can do if he's got significantly less resources than everyone else in the league!

I thought he had more cash than the majority? Wasn't Bristol's budget in the championship bigger that a few in the Prem at the time?

I'd definitely have him back.

[George Carlin]

Although noting the coach that Glasgow have been given next season I think it is only fair that Edinburgh are given someone of a similarly high calibre!

[RDW]

I thought he was running for UKIP leader?

[EWT Spoons]

I believe's he only mildly racist so not quite up to the required standard.

[IanBru]

Although noting the coach that Glasgow have been given next season I think it is only fair that Edinburgh are given someone of a similarly high calibre!

[Eejit]

Twolangis cleared to play. Both yellows overturned.

[cakeordeath]

"Langilangi Haupeakui is free to play after Pro12 Rugby disciplinary panel determine that neither yellow card received last Friday in the game against Treviso was warranted"

[RDW]

Glad to see common sense has prevailed - both were absolute shockers by the ref.

It should be a lesson for him though - he needs to make more effort to show he's using his arms in the tackle.

[cakeordeath]

At Parc y Scarlets 7.35pm.
Live on S4C and BBC Alba
Referee: Gary Conway (IRFU, 25th competition game)
Assistant Referees: David Wilkinson (IRFU) Neil Jones (WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwell Morgan (WRU)
TMO: Olly Hodges (IRFU)

Well that is going to be awkward

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