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IRFU Finances - with ecumenical matter.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 12 Oct 2016, 3:50 am

First topic message reminder :

Ok - don't say you weren't warned.

If you've no interest in spreadsheets, balance sheets, profit and loss accounts, annual reports, etc., then this topic is not for you. (I'm looking at you, Fly)

If on the other hand, there are Irish fans who want to know more about how finances in Irish rugby work, courtesy of published Annual Reports, media articles and mutterings, AGMs, then feel free to join in.

The intent behind this Topic is  for contributors to talk through/explain or ask questions about how different aspects of the finances in Irish rugby operate from grassroots through to National Team.  

Updated 26 Oct 2020

ESTIMATE
IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months

Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

That's just to kick things off.  Feel free to contribute.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 12:06 am; edited 6 times in total
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Post by Brendan Mon 26 Oct 2020, 7:46 pm

Pot you have done great work. You have proved loads of info to show what great work the IRFU are doing

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 26 Oct 2020, 9:44 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Total salary cost approx. - €30-32.3m.

So you reckon 25% of the player and management costs is "coaches"?

I don't believe I said that.  

I've given my estimate of the breakdown of the figures under Player and Management costs.  

The IRFU reported total for 2019/20 is €45.4m - 15 months
The IRFU reported total for 2018/19 is €40.6m - 12 months

Perhaps you could provide your breakdown of these figures based on what Annual Reports say are included in these figures:

- National Team Management fees and bonuses
- Ireland test team match fees and bonuses
- Insurances
- Salaries of the 15 central contract players paid by IRFU
- Contribution grants to provincial branches towards their costs
- Specified Exceptional grants to provinces towards specific items/resources within branch
- Competition Income rebates (if any) or perhaps rebates above a certain amount?

A few questions to consider in your response to which I don't know the answers:
Do you think the IRFU actually rebates all or some of the Competition Income from PRO14/EPCR to the branches or does it possibly use it to pay the full salaries of the players?  For example, in 2010/11 Annual Report, it states:

"You will have noted from the income and expenditure account that e28.4m was spent on funding the professional game this year. Of this e22.8m relates to the Union’s cost of running the four provincial professional teams. This year we received e9.3m from the participation of the four provinces in the various competitions. This leaves a net cost to the Union of e13.5m which it funds from the gate receipts, broadcasting and commercial revenues generated by the National Team.

Thus from Annual Report 2010/11 figs:
Player and Management Costs Total   €28,458,178

Provincial Contribution stated €22,800,000
- partly funded by ERC and PRO12 Income of   (€ 9,324,402)
Net Provincial Contribution cost (incl central contract players) €13,475,598
National Management costs and national player fees/bonuses € 5,658.178

If we look at the comparative figs for 2018/19, then it looks like this:

Player and Management Costs Total                                         €40,581,564

National Management/player fees/bonuses estimate say               € 6,700,000 (assumes €1m increase in 8 years)
Therefore, Provincial Contribution -               €33,881,564
Less ERC and PRO12 Income -               €13,378,009 (up €1m from previous year)
Net Cost of Provincial Contribution incl. test player sals.               €20,503,555
made up of:
- 15 Central contract Test player salaries at say 15 X €500k each         €7,500,000
- Salary & exceptional grants to provincial branch costs 4 x €3.25m avg.    €13,003,555


However, the Union states in this year's accounts that it has made debt provision for Player Recharges for the provincial contract players.  It states that the provinces contribute a share of the players' salaries and has allowed a provision of €16m against that not being paid.  So how is this income accounted by IRFU?  

The last three years of published Ulster Rugby Branch accounts indicate clearly that they have provincial player contracts, that the bulk of their expenditure is on player and coach costs plus bonus match payments and that they have player recharges to take account of.

More on that anon.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 05 Nov 2020, 1:52 am

The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

The money comes from the Irish Government's COVID-19 Emergency Fund for Sport and is issued in the wake of the IRFU reporting a record deficit of £32.2m.

Chief executive Philip Browne said: "The funding for rugby announced today by Government and Sport Ireland is critical for the IRFU to keep rugby activities at all levels of our sport going for now, for the many men, women and children who participate in, or volunteer at, Clubs week-in-week-out, and for our Provincial and International teams.

IRFU chief executive Phillip Browne has thanked the Irish government for their financial assistance
"As outlined to the Oireachtas Covid-19 Committee in recent weeks and confirmed in our recent annual report, Irish Rugby is in a perilous financial position as a result of Covid-19.

"While we moved quickly to reduce costs and agree cuts with our staff and players, further reductions and actions are under constant review as we move from a relatively strong cash position just 18 months ago to facing ongoing record losses in 2020 and on into 2021.

"We are very grateful for the ongoing support shown to us by Government and Sport Ireland throughout this pandemic, especially with today's vital funding announcement.
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Post by LordDowlais Sun 10 Jan 2021, 12:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

I have not been on here for a while, so I am playing catch up a little here, and you may have answered this already, but how does this work ?

Ulster is respectively a UK team isn't it ? I know it's all Ireland rugby, but Northern Ireland are the UK, so how do they get money from Ireland ? £16.2 million is not chicken feed, that is a hell of a lot of money.

I know the government helped English rugby to the tune of £135m, I know the WRU have supplemented the regions to the tune of £20m.

Who payed Ulster this money ? Ireland or the UK ?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sun 10 Jan 2021, 1:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

I have not been on here for a while, so I am playing catch up a little here, and you may have answered this already, but how does this work ?

Ulster is respectively a UK team isn't it ? I know it's all Ireland rugby, but Northern Ireland are the UK, so how do they get money from Ireland ? £16.2 million is not chicken feed, that is a hell of a lot of money.

I know the government helped English rugby to the tune of £135m, I know the WRU have supplemented the regions to the tune of £2

Who payed Ulster this money ? Ireland or the UK ?
The province of Ulster has counties in both the ROI and the UK. But to answer your question I have no idea.

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Post by Kingshu Sun 10 Jan 2021, 1:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

I have not been on here for a while, so I am playing catch up a little here, and you may have answered this already, but how does this work ?

Ulster is respectively a UK team isn't it ? I know it's all Ireland rugby, but Northern Ireland are the UK, so how do they get money from Ireland ? £16.2 million is not chicken feed, that is a hell of a lot of money.

I know the government helped English rugby to the tune of £135m, I know the WRU have supplemented the regions to the tune of £20m.

Who payed Ulster this money ? Ireland or the UK ?

Ulster may get some of the Irish grant, depending on other measures, and if they are left short compared to the other 3.
It up to the individual assemblies to provide grants. The English goverment gave the RFU a huge grant.
Scottish Rugby will benefit from £20 million, from the Scottish Goverment. £5 mill loans and £15 mill grants
Ulster will be hoping to access a significant portion of the £25m which Sport Northern Ireland has announced will be made available through its Sports Sustainability Fund.
The Welsh assembly have done nothing for the regions which is why they are upset but Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) interim chief executive Steve Phillips says he is hoping for a Welsh rugby financial package of between £30m and £40m from the Welsh government.

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Post by Brendan Mon 11 Jan 2021, 11:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

I have not been on here for a while, so I am playing catch up a little here, and you may have answered this already, but how does this work ?

Ulster is respectively a UK team isn't it ? I know it's all Ireland rugby, but Northern Ireland are the UK, so how do they get money from Ireland ? £16.2 million is not chicken feed, that is a hell of a lot of money.

I know the government helped English rugby to the tune of £135m, I know the WRU have supplemented the regions to the tune of £20m.

Who payed Ulster this money ? Ireland or the UK ?

The Irish are well known for their overseas charity.  Maybe the Irish Government can put some of it down as overseas aid. Win win for everyone.

I don't even know what the issue is here.  On the one hand we get told the the IRFU own everything and they aren't different teams but just the IRFU.  Now we get told that the IRFU should get ROI funding for Ulster cause they aren't IRFU.

It reminds me of the quote when Arnold Schwarzenegger was running for governor and everyone was giving out about an actor going into politics.  Letterman turns to Arnold and goes "at least you are an actor now"

So Ulster Congrats you aren't the same as the IRFU.

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 11 Jan 2021, 12:28 pm

Kingshu wrote:
The Welsh assembly have done nothing for the regions which is why they are upset but Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) interim chief executive Steve Phillips says he is hoping for a Welsh rugby financial package of between £30m and £40m from the Welsh government.

From reading complaints online (not always wise, granted), it seems that Phillips thought we would be part of the RFU help and so did nothing. That's mad, if true. It does seem to be a slow request to the Welsh Government anyway, in comparison to the other Unions.

The biggest complaint I have seen, is the fact that other Unions have given out grants and the WRU have dropped the Welsh Pro Teams budgets (whilst still having the same access to Team Wales players etc) and saddled them with a loan instead of a grant/supplement.

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 11 Jan 2021, 12:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) has received a £16.2m bailout from the Government to help balance its books during the coronavirus pandemic.

I have not been on here for a while, so I am playing catch up a little here, and you may have answered this already, but how does this work ?

Ulster is respectively a UK team isn't it ? I know it's all Ireland rugby, but Northern Ireland are the UK, so how do they get money from Ireland ? £16.2 million is not chicken feed, that is a hell of a lot of money.

I know the government helped English rugby to the tune of £135m, I know the WRU have supplemented the regions to the tune of £20m.

Who payed Ulster this money ? Ireland or the UK ?

To answer your first question on how how does this work, you need to be precise with language and names.  

Ulster, in this context, and generally, in IRFU funding discussions, refers to the "IRFU Ulster Branch".  Ulster Rugby is part of the branch.   The Ulster Branch is an entity owned by its shareholder clubs in the province of Ulster, which covers both Ireland and Northern Ireland.  It is one of the four branches that formed the Irish Rugby Football Union.  

The Government bailout monies that the IRFU refer to will go to the IRFU, with its headquarters based in Dublin, Ireland.  What it chooses to do with those monies, and where it distributes them, is their decision.

It's worth pointing out that the Government’s Covid-19 Emergency Fund for Sport covers the three main sporting organisations - GAA, IRFU and FAI.   The GAA - another all-island organisation - will receive €31m in emergency aid to cover all four provinces.

Of course, the NI Assembly could also choose/decide to provide some form of emergency funding for sport within its governing area - similar to the capital grants that they decided to allocate to 3 sporting organisations for stadium redevelopment some years ago i.e., IFA, IRFU and GAA for Windsor Park, Ravenhill and Casement Park respectively.

So,
"Ulster" is not a UK team.
"Ulster" has not been paid this money.
"Ulster" is not the same as Northern Ireland.
"Ulster" did not get some or all of the £16.2m.

So what will the bailout monies be used for?   For the most part, they will replace lost ticket and sponsorship income from the IRFU and branches having less test and league matches and/or no paying fans.

Those ticket monies are largely used to pay wages - both administration staff and playing/coaching staff - at all levels of the game - amateur and professional.

The IRFU receives all the Competition Income from PRO14 and EPCR comps that the four provincial branches compete in with their professional teams - Ulster Rugby, Leinster Rugby, Connacht Rugby and Munster Rugby.  These monies go to off-set some of the costs that the IRFU pays towards player and management costs each year.

The IRFU contracts the players - upfront - through different categories of contract.

A small number of players - 15 approx - are on what are known as central contracts (Category A) - and IRFU pays 100% of their agreed salary - these costs do not go onto the Branches' budgets each year.    The remaining 160-odd senior full-time players are on provincial branch contracts set in 3 tiers (Category B, C & D) which require the branches to pay some or all of the salaries. (Foreign capped players or not Irish qualified players are Category E paid by the province directly with a small contribution from IRFU).

Category B & C are full-time contracts to which the IRFU contribute a fixed amount - same for every province.   For example, Ulster and Connacht might have 12 players each that are on Category B level, and they might receive up to max of €110,000 per player from IRFU as part of their annual contribution i.e. €1.32m  And they might have another 20 players each on Category C to which the IRFU contributes €70,000 each i.e. €1.4m.   In each case, the province must pay the balance of each player's agreed salary from their playing budget which is based on their income earning capacity from ticket gate sales, sponsorships, business deals, etc.  So Ulster Branch might agree a full-time contract with one player for say €190k.  They receive €110k from IRFU and must pay the balance of €90k themselves from their earned income.  
Connacht on the other hand, with lower gate monies/income, might only be able to offer a similar player €160k - using €110k from IRFU and €50k from their own budget.

Category D players are those on part-time Development Contracts - which the province pays directly themselves - as I understand it.

So, in theory, the IRFU pays the salary upfront - and then re-charges a portion of it to the provinces in accordance with their agreed playing budget for that season.   (Last season, we know from the IRFU annual accounts, these re-charges for player salaries totalled €16m as they hadn't been repaid at that point due to Covid).  The IRFU clearly pointed out in their accounts, that these owed monies are not being written off, and are regarded as an on-going debt that is repayable over time by the provincial branches.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue 26 Jan 2021, 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 25 Jan 2021, 6:22 pm

Following up on this, it looks as though the Welsh government is stepping in to help the regions to the tune of £2.7M each. Seems a little paltry when you see what others are getting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/55768668

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Post by Kingshu Mon 25 Jan 2021, 7:07 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Following up on this, it looks as though the Welsh government is stepping in to help the regions to the tune of £2.7M each. Seems a little paltry when you see what others are getting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/55768668

£13.7 million for the WRU from the Welsh assembly, and £16.1 million from the Irish goverment for the IRFU doesnt appear to be paltry in comparison. Not as much as hoped, but to be fair with the regions attendances they are not losing out nearly as much as the provinces. Last full season there were 329,000 Welsh fans compared to 566,000 irish fans
In that regard £13.7 million may be generous.

£20m for the SRU does appear to be generous.

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Post by Brendan Mon 25 Jan 2021, 7:59 pm

Kingshu wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Following up on this, it looks as though the Welsh government is stepping in to help the regions to the tune of £2.7M each. Seems a little paltry when you see what others are getting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/55768668

£13.7 million for the WRU from the Welsh assembly, and £16.1 million from the Irish goverment for the IRFU doesnt appear to be paltry in comparison. Not as much as hoped, but to be fair with the regions attendances they are not losing out nearly as much as the provinces. Last full season there were 329,000 Welsh fans compared to 566,000 irish fans
In that regard £13.7 million may be generous.

£20m for the SRU does appear to be generous.

You forgot to add in the millions added in by the private investors that we hear so much about in Wales.

On a serious note I think we are seeing alot of politics in all of this with the Welsh and Scottish donations from the regional assemblies.  The Scottish it could be argued are just catching for money they may not have got previously.

Either way can't bite the hand that feeds you so they will all say that the government is the best ever and giving them everything they need in these difficult times.

And for once Scottish Rugby might be in the strongest position coming out of it. Dare we say they might be dark horses for the 6 nations this year.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 26 Jan 2021, 6:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Following up on this, it looks as though the Welsh government is stepping in to help the regions to the tune of £2.7M each. Seems a little paltry when you see what others are getting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/55768668

Looking at the figures quoted in media, it would appear that the allocations look like this:

RFU £67m including community game/clubs (23m)
PRL - £59m -  £4.5m per team
Championship - £9m
SRU - £5m loan and £15m grant - no specific allocation to professional teams announced
IRFU- €18m (£15.94m) grant to union - €4m (£3.54m) of this announced for amateur clubs.
WRU - £20m loan for 4 regions and a £13.5m grant to be split 5 ways between union and regions.  WRU continuing to look for more than this.

Not sure if “paltry” is the right description.
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Post by Filo8 Tue 26 Jan 2021, 8:46 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Following up on this, it looks as though the Welsh government is stepping in to help the regions to the tune of £2.7M each. Seems a little paltry when you see what others are getting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/55768668

Looking at the figures quoted in media, it would appear that the allocations look like this:

RFU £67m including community game/clubs (23m)
PRL - £59m -  £4.5m per team
Championship - £9m
SRU - £5m loan and £15m grant - no specific allocation to professional teams announced
IRFU- €18m (£15.94m) grant to union - €4m (£3.54m) of this announced for amateur clubs.
WRU - £20m loan for 4 regions and a £13.5m grant to be split 5 ways between union and regions.  WRU continuing to look for more than this.

Not sure if “paltry” is the right description.  
With regards to the loans, I think you need to look at the terms of the loans. The Welsh regions loan has to be paid back, with interest, over the next 5 years by the regions themselves. Whilst its understood that the other loans are over the next 20 years with much lower levels of interest.
The loan to the Welsh sides by Natwest (organised by the WRU) was mostly about short term survival due to the £20m+ cut to their funding this season. So effectively this season the Welsh sides are giving free access of their players to the WRU and will be worse off compared to the Scottish and Irish sides financially over the next 5 years due to the terms of the loans/grants.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 26 Jan 2021, 9:09 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Not sure if “paltry” is the right description.

Yes it is the right description.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 27 Jan 2021, 2:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Not sure if “paltry” is the right description.

Yes it is the right description.

Paltry in comparison to what though? No figures have been provided for what monies will be given to the Scottish or Irish teams - that was the point you were seeking to make presumably. The Irish provinces are already on the hook for €16m of loans from IRFU to pay back last year’s salary recharges. Contract discussions are underway currently with about 90 players being offered mainly one- and some two-year deals with 10-20% salary cuts. With an allocation to the amateur clubs, that leaves the IRFU with £12.4m to deal with the provincial branches/professional teams. Split 5 ways that amounts to 2.4m per team.

Everyone has to cut their cloth - that’s the reality.
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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 30 Jan 2021, 7:27 pm

CJ Stander heading to Bordeaux?

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Post by Brendan Sat 30 Jan 2021, 8:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:CJ Stander heading to Bordeaux?

He is 30. May be true or not but the clear out of older players might be a blessing in disguise for team Ireland

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 30 Jan 2021, 9:18 pm

Do you know what Stander is on with his Ireland games, and what he could earn in France?

I think he’s given a lot so can’t fault him. Munster have Gavin Coombes now so they might be okay with it.

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