Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[pedro]

Corbyn I guess.

[beninho]

Strange, I am not a labour voter and really am not a fan of his, I think he is ruining the only party that can challenge the tory government.

I'm nothing more than a middle straddling Liberal.

[McLaren]

Super pay close attention to this line from beninho

"The only reason to liken a football match to a holocaust is to make a point"


And consider what point most people will assume you are making?

[super_realist]

Mac, if it were Tottenham, and if it was still 1941 when Nazi Germany controlled Bavaria, I'd probably agree with you, but it's a German team against a British team and it's 2017.

It's just a word, get the sand out of your vagina.

[McLaren]

Super

I don't really care if you want to come off as an anti Semite, go for it. I just thought I would highlight the pitfalls in using that sort of language for you. Ignore my advice if you want.

Although I suspect in the real world you would never use that analogy because you know how it would make you look.

[beninho]

Do you not accept that some words carry more meaning than others?

Holocaust is a word undeniably linked to the mass killing of Jewish people, there are still people in the world who are impacted by what happened. It was horrific. Sometimes its not easy to move on. You added extra words in when "get stuffed at the emirates" would have been absolutely fine. You added to word in to try and make yourself look controversial as there was absolutely no reason to say it otherwise.

Would you use the N word in casual conversation? Or link black people to slavery?

[beninho]

Let me add, that I am not offended by what you said. It has no real impact on me or my life, I am very curious as to the reasons why, and then the continued defence of it without acknowledging anything.

[pedro]

Ironically there are plenty of holocaust deniers in the emirates...

[McLaren]

Let me add, that I am not offended by what you said. It has no real impact on me or my life, I am very curious as to the reasons why, and then the continued defence of it without acknowledging anything.

+1

[super_realist]

Do you not accept that some words carry more meaning than others?

Holocaust is a word undeniably linked to the mass killing of Jewish people, there are still people in the world who are impacted by what happened. It was horrific. Sometimes its not easy to move on. You added extra words in when "get stuffed at the emirates" would have been absolutely fine. You added to word in to try and make yourself look controversial as there was absolutely no reason to say it otherwise.

Would you use the N word in casual conversation? Or link black people to slavery?

There are lots of words which are emotive, but it doesn't mean that we should stop using them "just in case" someone might be offended.

You don't have a right to be "not offended"

Would I use the N-Word? No, of course I wouldn't as it's tantamount to racial abuse. The use of the term holocaust, is not.

Mac, perhaps when you stop being a hypocrite, I might be more selective in my language.

[beninho]

"There are lots of words which are emotive, but it doesn't mean that we should stop using them "just in case" someone might be offended".

I think any right minded person would regulate their vocabulary in order to not offend people. Now what people may find offensive is a personal opinion, and you cant always cover everything. But most people would be aware of what is an inflammatory word and what isn't.

"You don't have a right to be "not offended"

Please elaborate what you mean on this?

[super_realist]

You've said you're not offended, so big effing deal.

It's just a word.

You aren't immune from offence, nor are you protected by it in law. I'm not required to use language that doesn't offend you. If you're offended (as long as I've not said anything inflammatory or illegal) then I'm afraid it's tough jubblies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs

[beninho]

Its not just a word though is it. Its a word which literally means "the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II"

You still do not accept that it was at best a poor choice of words to describe a football match? Hows about if a Jewish person reads these boards, you still accept it to be a reasonable word to use in everyday language?

Just because you can use a word, does not mean you should.

[Roller_Coaster]

Just because you can use a word, does not mean you should.

Or shouldn't.

(Although I wouldn't have used it in making a similar point, I'd probably have gone for something like "absolute Muppet". Being a QPR fan, I know a fair bit about them )

[Roller_Coaster]

tw at ting comes out as "Muppet" - maybe I wouldn't have used it!

[beninho]

One of my first games was at QPR, they still had the plastic pitch, Clive Allen scored for Spurs, I think, though do not recall the result.

[Roller_Coaster]

If the magic carpet was still there, we might actually have got something out of that.

[McLaren]

Super

You are concentrating too much on whether we are offended or not, although as pointed out no-one here is offended. The point being made is whether or not you understand what perception people form about you when you use a term like "holocaust" in such a trivial manner.

You cannot expect your audience to delve into the minutiae of your thoughts on that words use. They are allowed to just assume you are anti semitic or insensitive to the issue.

[raycastleunited]

(Although I wouldn't have used it in making a similar point, I'd probably have gone for something like "absolute Muppet". Being a QPR fan, I know a fair bit about them  )

So does Harry Redknapp, he signed a load.

[super_realist]

Super

You are concentrating too much on whether we are offended or not, although as pointed out no-one here is offended. The point being made is whether or not you understand what perception people form about you when you use a term like "holocaust" in such a trivial manner.

You cannot expect your audience to delve into the minutiae of your thoughts on that words use. They are allowed to just assume you are anti semitic or insensitive to the issue.

Mac, not only are you a hypocrite, you also don't understand the meaning of words. Anti-Semitic means prejudice against Jews. Using the word holocaust is not remotely being prejudiced against jews in the slightest. It clearly wasn't aimed at jews and it wasn't in a jewish or WW2 context in the slightest.

As you say, no one here is offended, so why don't you drop it and shut up? Do you care what people on here think of you? Clearly not, or you wouldn't come out with some of the things you say, so why should I care? It's just a bloody forum, not the Oxford Union.

[Eyetoldyouso]

s-r

Actually I am offended. You have trivialised the word holocaust. You may say that you have no intention to offend but, unfortunately, there are many people out there who use the word holocaust in order to lessen the crime; these people are anti-Semitic.
So you get tarred by that brush whether you like it or not.

[McLaren]

Super

This might be of interest to you as you seem to have been given false information on the history and usage of the word "holocaust". http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/the-word-holocaust-history-and-meaning_n_1229043.html

I would also hope you stop to consider what Eye said above.

[beninho]

So moving on a bit.

Tyrone Mings, Harshly dealt with? I think so, i dont think he went out to stamp on Zlatan. He was also knocked by rooney when trying to jump him. Its football, accidents happen. Its a shocker to ban him for 5 games.

[raycastleunited]

So moving on a bit.

Tyrone Mings, Harshly dealt with? I think so, i dont think he went out to stamp on Zlatan. He was also knocked by rooney when trying to jump him. Its football, accidents happen. Its a shocker to ban him for 5 games.

I agree, I don't think he set out to stamp on Zlatan, but at the same time he didn't take any evasive action. He was looking down as he jumped, he could have adjusted his feet or at least attempted to avoid the stamp.

Zlatan's description of the elbowing after the match was also correct, although he was being a bit sneaky. He didn't elbow Mings, he jumped with his elbow up and Mings jumped into it. But Zlatan was just showing his experience, he knew how Mings was going to jump and left his elbow there.

I think a 2-3 match ban for both would have been fair.

[navyblueshorts]

So moving on a bit.

Tyrone Mings, Harshly dealt with? I think so, i dont think he went out to stamp on Zlatan. He was also knocked by rooney when trying to jump him. Its football, accidents happen. Its a shocker to ban him for 5 games.

I agree, I don't think he set out to stamp on Zlatan, but at the same time he didn't take any evasive action. He was looking down as he jumped, he could have adjusted his feet or at least attempted to avoid the stamp.

Would agree a 5 match ban is nonsense, especially when there's no proof it was intentional. Unlike Ibrahimovich's elbow.

Zlatan's description of the elbowing after the match was also correct, although he was being a bit sneaky. He didn't elbow Mings, he jumped with his elbow up and Mings jumped into it. But Zlatan was just showing his experience, he knew how Mings was going to jump and left his elbow there.

I think a 2-3 match ban for both would have been fair.

Nonsense. Watch it again I suggest. Ibrahimovich swings his elbow into Mings face.

[Be_the_ball]

Cymru am byth! Ya bollox's!

[McLaren]

#indyref2

This is going to be a seriously tedious time in the UK.

[puligny]

We did it to ourselves Mac!

[super_realist]

#indyref2

This is going to be a seriously tedious time in the UK.

SNP trying to hijack democracy again. I wonder what the stimulus was this time? Wrong toilet paper in the HOC?

[kwinigolfer]

Surprised Mac hasn't been on here writing an obituary for John Surtees . . . . . . .

[McLaren]

Super

Dunno about you but I might take any scrap of a chance to remain in the eu. The arguments from both sides will be terrible but what is the point of the UK outside the European? I'd rather be the next Latvia than a racist nation looking in.

[McLaren]

Surprised Mac hasn't been on here writing an obituary for John Surtees . . . . . . .

Not sure I could do him justice. With these things I tend to think old guy had good life, nice story.

[super_realist]

Mac, I'm no fan of not being in Europe,( it's not really about that in this regard). If we are a democratic nation (whether you like the result or not) you can't just keep holding referendums on every detail just because Jimmy Krankie's Lego hair is a bit ruffled and until she gets the result that her bitter, small minded, hypocritical party want.

Unfortunately, we as the United Kingdom voted to exit the EU, I'd much rather politicians of all stripes, instead of acting like spoilt brats like Sturgeon and her mob of baying peasants would actually try and ensure Britain gets the best deal and best trade agreements.

I don't see London crying about the Brexit result, I don't see the other regions who voted to stay throwing their toys out.

Scotland has no income of its own to any great significance and would be as poor as the prospects of Tiger Woods next comeback, and I wouldn't want to be in hawk to the EU just to be the next Romania in order that you can feel morally superior to the Daily Mail and people who voted for Brexit.

[MontysMerkin]

Even trump can feel morally superior to the daily flail.

[Roller_Coaster]

If it was a "once in a generation" vote, then it's only fair that the next generation now has a say.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the next generation on from that which took part in the last vote will likely vote for "daddy" or possibly "waaaaahhhhhh, bitty".

[super_realist]

If it was a "once in a generation" vote, then it's only fair that the next generation now has a say.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the next generation on from that which took part in the last vote will likely vote for "daddy" or possibly "waaaaahhhhhh, bitty".

It's not a different generation now though Roller, it was only 3 years ago, a generation is at least 20 years.

[McLaren]

Super

Unfortunately the SNP won many seats in Holyrood using a manifesto which basically said if brexit goes ahead they will hold #indyref2.  Which sort of means #indyref2 is the democratic position.


The UK has created a total mess which didn't need to happen, when you have a modern liberal economy doing well just leave it alone. The UK and scotland is getting mucked around by politicians with nationalistic intentions and the population is either too stupid to notice or also want to be flag waving little turds.


Living in Scotland you are now left with a choice between a Scottish nationalist experiment or a English nationalist experiment.

I don't want to be part of either but you have to think it works out slightly better if you are small liberal EU nation.


Edit

I have been reminded on twitter of this tweet by J.K Rowling right after we knew leave would win.

Scotland will seek independence now. Cameron's legacy will be breaking up two unions. Neither needed to happen.

She gets a hard time but the bit I put in bold perfectly sums up how I feel about the current predicament.

[super_realist]

Mac, That's only the case if it is CLEAR that more than half of Scotland wants another referendum. That's not clear at all, and furthermore, Westminster can tell them to get stuffed, which I hope they will.

In any event, the big draw for Independence was Oil Revenue, which the SNP has admitted they completely cocked up. At best in recent times, oil revenue was worth £1000 per person, per year in Scotland. Not much money, but now it is ZERO, in fact, it was in deficit to the tune of 24million last year. Where else would Scotland earn revenue? You want to be like Greece?

The UK has not created a total mess, the ELECTORATE has.

Why would it be better to be a small liberal EU nation? Norway are a small liberal nation, as is Switzerland and neither is a member of the EU.

Seeing as you're such a Yankophile, why don't you move there?

[McLaren]

Super

As a green voter it will come as no surprise to you that I would be quite happy if Scotland had to make its cash from something other than oil.


If the UK isn't its electorate, then what is it?


Not sure where you got the Yankophile thing from?

[super_realist]

Mac, the point is that it never made much out of it anyway, despite the SNP claiming it was this wonderful cash cow. It was back in about 2011 when revenue was 5bn, which equates to just £1000 per person. That's not a huge amount of money.

The SNP's toss about "we'll be so much richer when we get rid of Trident" is also a load of crap. The individual amount of money which is contributed to defence is tiny compared with what we pay for Benefits for example. 25% of your tax goes to the welfare state. Getting that down would be what makes the difference, and not by

If you remember the last one, the wheelie bin dwelling west coasters were always using the tired and inaccurate "it's Scotland's oil" crap, as if they were somehow going to be made millionnaire's out of it.

Whisky companies are mostly owned by foreign companies and the % of people who pay 40% tax is minimal.

There really isn't much of a financial case for it.

I was inferring that you were blaming the government for the current situation, but it was the electorate which voted for Brexit.

Where do I get the Yankophile? Maybe because you write and spell as if you are one.

[MontysMerkin]

25% of your tax goes to the welfare state. Getting that down would be what makes the difference

Any suggestions? And none of your namby pamby, bloody socialist, snowflake carp. I want good, hard capiatlist ideas how you take a population of big, fat, ugly morons and turn them into highly tuned, mobile work machines that innovate and generate revenue.

[raycastleunited]

Where else would Scotland earn revenue?

Golf?
Although Trump seems to be buying all the good ones now. Almost as ubiquitous as Starbucks.

Naming rights?
As in Trump Castle in Edinburgh, Trump Ness monster, etc.

[super_realist]

25% of your tax goes to the welfare state. Getting that down would be what makes the difference

Any suggestions? And none of your namby pamby, bloody socialist, snowflake carp. I want good, hard capiatlist ideas how you take a population of big, fat, ugly morons and turn them into highly tuned, mobile work machines that innovate and generate revenue.

What a surprise you got on this Monty. It's not my responsibility to do this, I'm not the one ignoring it, the political parties are. If a party like the SNP focus on the pittance which goes into Trident per person, but completely ignore the chasm that goes into the welfare state, then they've got their priorities wrong. We'll always need a welfare state, but it being 25% of our outgoings is a rather glaring figure.

I simply suggest that getting more people back into work, whether that's creating jobs, having a better economy or something else is obviously something from a financial point of view that would benefit every country.

[McLaren]

Super

What public services would you be most worried about an independent Scotland being unable to properly fund?

[super_realist]

Mac,
Same as you probably.
I would expect Health and Education to be especially badly hit. Firstly because Scotland's health is so bad, especially in places like Glasgow and the West.
Obesity is high, rates of diabetes, heart disease, dementia and alcohol abuse are high.

The point is that Scotland benefits hugely from the Union. I really can't see it being able to afford the things which matter, i.e health and education and infrastructure programmes were it to be independent. I'd also want it to be a net contributor to the EU, not holding out a begging bowl.

It's got virtually no state owned industry, it doesn't have a financial services centre commensurate with London (and many of the big ones that are here would leave as claimed).

I simply don't see it being financially viable Mac, can you?

If the SNP raise taxes to cover all the things it says it wants to do, there will be a brain drain.

[McLaren]

Super

"I simply don't see it being financially viable Mac, can you?"

No idea, but my issue is that I don't see May and the subsequent long post Brexit Tory reign being morally viable.


If lego hair can guarantee Scotland's immediate and safe passage (i.e they foot the bill if we suffer for a year or two) then it would be hard to vote to live in an English nationalists wet dream.

[super_realist]

Mac, Here you go again, having a go at the Tories. How was anything "more moral" under any government you've ever lived through.

Scotland would be crippled by their share of the national debt. It's catastrophic. 5million people simply couldn't service a 100bn debt.

You probably don't remember, or perhaps you don't even know that the EU hasn't always existed, yet you would have been like a pig in scheisse in a Labour government of that period as a Corbynite.

Perhaps you'd like to go back to the 3 day week of Britain in Europe in 1974? You seem to think that being in Europe makes everything rosey, and being outside it makes everything bad and immoral.

Stop looking at things with your SJW hat on for a moment and your bleeding heart, and actually think if Scotland could survive in the manner you've become accustomed to by being on its own, especially as there would be no guarantee that Europe would want them.

I genuinely can't see how it could, not without being a incredibly low ranking and poor country.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you never seem to consider things from the viewpoint other than your own and your own limited experiences.

I don't like Brexit but I'm not going to call it moral indignation. It's what the majority voted for, and I believe that as long as certain requirements can be met, it might not be that bad. Instead of crying about it like the SNP are, try actually considering how your life might be, and how it perhaps might not be anything like as bad as you fear, or can you just not possibly betray your skeptical roots?

[Diggers]

To be honest, I don't really see how politically the SNP have any choice but to campaign for a second referendum. IMO Brexit was a huge game changer, few things are big enough to warrant a second referendum so soon but Brexit fits the bill.
Their biggest problem is what comes after if they win...the uncertainty of where they might stand in the EU. But I genuinely don't think that's any greater uncertainty than that facing the UK, I don't think there is any form of coherent plan for withdrawal in place.
You said London isn't crying about Brexit Super, I disagree. Given the opportunity I could see people going for an independent London, but clearly there is no history to trigger that level of devolution.

[McLaren]

To be honest, I don't really see how politically the SNP have any choice but to campaign for a second referendum

This is what I tried to point out to Super earlier. Their manifesto made it clear that a vote for the SNP in the Holyrood elections was a vote for holding indyref2 in the event of #Brexit.

[super_realist]

To be honest, I don't really see how politically the SNP have any choice but to campaign for a second referendum. IMO Brexit was a huge game changer, few things are big enough to warrant a second referendum so soon but Brexit fits the bill.
Their biggest problem is what comes after if they win...the uncertainty of where they might stand in the EU. But I genuinely don't think that's any greater uncertainty than that facing the UK, I don't think there is any form of coherent plan for withdrawal in place.
You said London isn't crying about Brexit Super, I disagree. Given the opportunity I could see people going for an independent London, but clearly there is no history to trigger that level of devolution.

London isn't crying anything like the SNP are. Mind you, they're a bit like UKIP in that they're a one issue party. They'll gerrymander anything to give their agenda more scope.

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