Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[pedro]

First topic message reminder :

Corbyn I guess.

[Diggers]

I would just like an honest politician, but that's an oxymoron, and I am dreaming.

I think Corbyn is honest, often to his detriment.

Honest Jim Corbyn, man of the people, recording a video sitting on the floor of a train saying there's no seats. And then the train company release footage showing a load of empty seats...

That story is dependant on who you choose to believe about when the seats were free, apparently some passengers were upgraded later to fee up space. Who knows.
I don't think you can really dispute his s basic honesty compared to May, over Europe and Trident he hasn't hidden his true beliefs which he had been consistent with for decades. The only consistent thing about May is her opportunism.
I'm far from sold on Corbyn by the way, I don't really like the sound of Momentum and how they operate, but I do think he has far more empathy and integrity than May.

[raycastleunited]

Digs I think you hit the nail on the head describing May as opportunistic. It's obvious that everything she does is geared around beating labour / staying in power... it's just a full time popularity contest. I recognise that staying in power is an important part of politics, but running the country in the best way possible doesn't seem to feature at all.

[raycastleunited]

I see May is bottling having a TV debate.

I think she's making a U-turn on that too.

TV debates don't work because people aren't interested in what May and Corbyn have to say. It's just banal and evasive drivel. To make it successful they should get some genuinely interesting people in: someone from TOWIE, an Xfactor finalist (even better - a forgotten xfactor winner from a couple of years ago), that Dean Gaffney from Eastenders, someone from Steps. Instead of a podium they could sit around a sofa and make the studio look like a house, you could have a nightly debate so they would need to sleep there for the next couple of months until the election date. Maybe give them tasks to do to show the public how they would implement their policies. Maybe ask the public to vote out the least appealing candidate every week.

[Roller_Coaster]

I see May is bottling having a TV debate.

I think she's making a U-turn on that too.

TV debates don't work because people aren't interested in what May and Corbyn have to say. It's just banal and evasive drivel. To make it successful they should get some genuinely interesting people in: someone from TOWIE, an Xfactor finalist (even better - a forgotten xfactor winner from a couple of years ago), that Dean Gaffney from Eastenders, someone from Steps. Instead of a podium they could sit around a sofa and make the studio look like a house, you could have a nightly debate so they would need to sleep there for the next couple of months until the election date. Maybe give them tasks to do to show the public how they would implement their policies. Maybe ask the public to vote out the least appealing candidate every week.

Just vote out all the candidates bar one in a one-off series-ending vote after about 6 weeks. Early June perhaps.

NB - great idea, but Steps are Touring, Dean Gaffney's returning to Eastenders, no-one knows who the X-Factor finalists were, let alone where they are. Kill 2 birds with one stone. Have everyone from towie in there (the "E" is for execution, right?)

[Diggers]

Digs I think you hit the nail on the head describing May as opportunistic. It's obvious that everything she does is geared around beating labour / staying in power... it's just a full time popularity contest. I recognise that staying in power is an important part of politics, but running the country in the best way possible doesn't seem to feature at all.

It's a shame really Ray, I've no doubt she is very smart and by all accounts a tough negotiator and incredibly hard worker. But I don't trust a word she says!

[super_realist]

Super

Why do you hate the SNP so much?


The main reason I don't like them is their focus on nationalism and lack of clarity on what their other core beliefs are. At the moment they are just a popularist party who tailor policies other than nationalism to limit any damage to the independence cause.  

The wee cybernat followers are currently conned into preying for a SNP socialist haven.  Aye right. In the end it is hard to imagine how anyone can stomach Scottish jingoism.

I also think it used to be a bit of a Salmond personality cult.  

I hate them for pretty much the same reasons you do Mac, they are desperate for Independence in spite of the lack of evidence Scotland would fare well on its own. It's very much cutting off your nose to spite your face with the SNP.

They are every bit as bad as UKIP as far as I can see when it comes to being divisive, intolerant and insufferable.
They also remind me of Trump because they just make soundbites without being able to back anything up at all. Sturgeon, Salmond, Hosie, and the fat controller who is the Westminster spokesman and that Swinnie berk are just really loathsome people who will say literally anything to get the people of Scotland to hate England just that little bit more.
It's like their party political statements are just a cover for their deep bigotry and nationalistic flag waving. It is fun seeing them get shown up on Question Time and programmes like that.

Also, they try to gerrymander every single issue as yet another reason for Independence. There's something wrong with the toilet paper in Westminster? Right, Indyref2 it is. Whanks.

[Diggers]

I don't think I've ever seen an SNP panellist shown up on QT Super, quite the opposite usually. Salmond is comfortably one of the best performers, has a sense of humour, is very well informed and a great orator.

[beninho]

I would happily take sturgeon over may! I honestly think she comes across better than all the party leaders in the uk. If I was scottish I would find it hard to vote anyone else.

[super_realist]

I don't think I've ever seen an SNP panellist shown up on QT Super, quite the opposite usually. Salmond is comfortably one of the best performers, has a sense of humour, is very well informed and a great orator.

I said "and the like" because I was also talking about shows like Andrew Neil and Sunday Politics programme with Gordon Brewer (Scottish Paxman) where their feeble politics and hypocrisy are often exposed.

[super_realist]

I would happily take sturgeon over may! I honestly think she comes across better than all the party leaders in the uk. If I was scottish I would find it hard to vote anyone else.

She's just bluster Ben, like any bully, she likes to dish it out, but she can't take it when she gets it back, always pleading the oppressed and downtrodden. She was described lately as a horrible little cretin, and I think that's a pretty good description.

Also, she, and her party are completely devoid of workable policy. They come out with crap like "we'd be wealthy if it wasn't for Trident"  despite it costing the individual virtually nothing and crap like  building a post independence budget on oil being a laughable $110 a barrel. Financially the SNP are complete amateurs and the budget deficit in Scotland is currently the worst in the western world.

As a party, it's like a 6th Form Project where you don't have to be responsible for awful policies.

[McLaren]

Super

Sadly (if you don't want SNP domination) Sturgeon is a seriously competent politician and so are many of the other SNP MP/MSP's, who, like Diggers, said are not very often shown up in TV appearances. In general the SNP seems to be run very well.


But back to why we don't like the SNP. I don't know whether or not the Scottish economy would be better or worse under independence but I don't really care. That is not the reason I oppose nationalism.

[Diggers]

Mac, have to say I hate the idea of a return to the nation state mentality. That said that's what the UK voted for with Brexit, but the vote in Scotland was remain. So for me it's more complex than just a question of nationalism.

[McLaren]

Diggers, I think Scottish nationalism and English nationalism are currently quite different concepts. The English nationalists that forced #Brexit are largely anti immigration and imposed liberal values from Europe while in Scotland the the indy types are more about being in a completely different political system to England.

I would imagine there are many right wingers/unionists like Super in Scotland who value Britishness more than the European project, and therefore voted No in indyref and leave in #Brexit.

[Diggers]

Yeah, the reasons are very different. I hate the little Englander (Britisher?) mentality, I hate that more than any economic consequences that Brexit might bring.
I do sympathise with Scottish Nationalists, though not sure where I stand overall. It must be galling to have Tory Westminster rule when their ideology is pretty much diametrically opposed to the majority of Scottish voters.

[super_realist]

Mac, have to say I hate the idea of a return to the nation state mentality. That said that's what the UK voted for with Brexit, but the vote in Scotland was remain. So for me it's more complex than just a question of nationalism.

Plenty places voted to remain, but that doesn't mean they try to hijack democracy the way the SNP does.

SNP can't accept that people voted against Europe and against Independence.

I don't want to be out of Europe, but I respect the views of the public who voted that we leave. That's how democracy works, and the SNP don't appear to accept that.

They were exactly the same when they used to spout crap about- "It's not the government we voted for" during Tory years yet I didn't hear them moan when it is the government that they voted for, for example during the Blair years when that's exactly who most Scottish voters voted for. You also don't see the non SNP voters saying the same thing about the Holyrood Elections.
The thing about democracy is you don't always get what you want, but that doesn't mean you try to have referendum after referendum until you try to force through a position.

London voted to remain, but I don't see them looking for an isolationist position and demanded to be treated as a special case.

Sturgeon and her petty little Scotlanders should grow up and look up democracy in the dictionary. We voted to Stay in the UK, so that means we accept the result of a UK wide referendum on Brexit, tough as it is.

If you want to see Scottish SNP MP's/MSP's (or any politician of any stripe) shown up on some of the better political programmes that aren't as transparent and pre-screened like QT, they aren't difficult to find.

We haven't even got into how Scotland is already breaking the fiscal rules for EU membership to an absurd degree,

[super_realist]

Diggers, I think Scottish nationalism and English nationalism are currently quite different concepts.  The English nationalists that forced #Brexit are largely anti immigration and imposed liberal values from Europe while in Scotland the the indy types are more about being in a completely different political system to England.

I would imagine there are many right wingers/unionists like Super in Scotland who value Britishness more than the European project, and therefore voted No in indyref and leave in #Brexit.

No need for that Mac, I voted EXACTLY the same as you in Brexit AND Independence, so stick that in your condescending and sneering, sniping pipe and smoke it.

SNP DON'T want a completely different political system to England, they simply don't want to be ruled by Westminster regardless of whether it's best for Scotland (or the UK) and instead want their own band of bigots and inept politicians working from Holyrood, it's basically the same type of idiot working from another location. Same political system though, same parties available for  election. We'll have the same issues we have now, and there will be no political utopia simply because Westminster wouldn't be interfering. Health, Education, Jobs, Welfare, Defence etc will still be the issues, and moving office won't solve anything. Scotland won't be "rich" or somehow a better place to live.

[beninho]

The thing with both brexit and scots indy seems to be, no one knows what will happen if either cone about because it may take years for tge benefits. Im against brexit but I have to admit it may turn out well in the long run but it may not, no one knows. Ive no strong views on scots indy, but again it may be fine after some difficulties or it may not. Both are hust a leap of faith and some guesswork.

[Diggers]

Mac, have to say I hate the idea of a return to the nation state mentality. That said that's what the UK voted for with Brexit, but the vote in Scotland was remain. So for me it's more complex than just a question of nationalism.

Plenty places voted to remain, but that doesn't mean they try to hijack democracy the way the SNP does.

SNP can't accept that people voted against Europe and against Independence.

I don't want to be out of Europe, but I respect the views of the public who voted that we leave. That's how democracy works, and the SNP don't appear to accept that.

They were exactly the same when they used to spout crap about- "It's not the government we voted for" during Tory years yet I didn't hear them moan when it is the government that they voted for, for example during the Blair years when that's exactly who most Scottish voters voted for. You also don't see the non SNP voters saying the same thing about the Holyrood Elections.
The thing about democracy is you don't always get what you want, but that doesn't mean you try to have referendum after referendum until you try to force through a position.

London voted to remain, but I don't see them looking for an isolationist position and demanded to be treated as a special case.

Sturgeon and her petty little Scotlanders should grow up and look up democracy in the dictionary. We voted to Stay in the UK, so that means we accept the result of a UK wide referendum on Brexit, tough as it is.

If you want to see Scottish SNP MP's/MSP's (or any politician of any stripe) shown up on some of the better political programmes that aren't as transparent and pre-screened like QT,  they aren't difficult to find.

We haven't even got into how Scotland is already breaking the fiscal rules for EU membership to an absurd degree,

I watch all the political shows, Daily Politics, Andrew Marr, Newsnight. I don't see what you say is happening, Id suggest that's because I'm watching with a more open mind.
You are right about democracy, but IMO Brexit was a big enough game changer to trigger at the very least a discussion about another independence referendum, especially considering the potential hard Brexit path the Tories are following.
The feeling in London is running high re Brexit, but there is no choice for an independent London, there is for Scotland, so that argument is utterly irrelevant. Apples and oranges response.
I've no doubt you are better informed about the Scottish economy than me, but politics is not just about economics. The simple truth is neither of us know how the UK will fare outside of Europe, nor indeed how Scotland would cope as a nation state.
We have an election, this is the chance for democracy to give an opinion on the SNP, if they are as utterly ramshackle and amateur as you say then that will be represented in the vote.

[Diggers]

Diggers, I think Scottish nationalism and English nationalism are currently quite different concepts.  The English nationalists that forced #Brexit are largely anti immigration and imposed liberal values from Europe while in Scotland the the indy types are more about being in a completely different political system to England.

I would imagine there are many right wingers/unionists like Super in Scotland who value Britishness more than the European project, and therefore voted No in indyref and leave in #Brexit.

No need for that Mac, I voted EXACTLY the same as you in Brexit AND Independence, so stick that in your condescending and sneering, sniping pipe and smoke it.

SNP DON'T want a completely different political system to England, they simply don't want to be ruled by Westminster regardless of whether it's best for Scotland (or the UK) and instead want their own band of bigots and inept politicians working from Holyrood, it's basically the same type of idiot working from another location. Same political system though, same parties available for  election. We'll have the same issues we have now, and there will be no political utopia simply because Westminster wouldn't be interfering. Health, Education, Jobs, Welfare, Defence etc will still be the issues, and moving office won't solve anything. Scotland won't be "rich" or somehow a better place to live.

You don't know any of that, the political "system" would be different, no Lords for a start. But that's not really the point, it allows for a different way of running the country. Full choice on how you choose to tax and distribute wealth. The party structure would change as Labour and the Conservatives would have to adapt to survive. The political landscape would change massively, whether that's for the better or worse is obviously going to be subjective. Every society will always have problems, but there are differences ways of dealing with them.

[McLaren]

Super

I didn't say the SNP wanted a different political system I said a lot of the scot nat voters are people who think an independent Scotland would have a different political system to the UK as a whole. It is proposed that in and independent Scotland the parties would all be left of the positions they take within a united UK. See Diggers post above.

What we were discussing was the difference between people who adopted that nationalist position in Scotland for indyref and those who adopted the nationalist position in England for #brexit.

And we have had the do the SNP have a right to hold indyref2 debate already. I think you even came to the point that they were democratically elected on a manifesto which clearly stated a vote for them was a vote for holding indyref2 should #brexit happen. It could not be clearer what the SNP stand for so I don't understand your comments about them hijacking democracy?

If London already had a parliament, was historically an independent nation, already had parties pushing for independence etc do you not think there might be a push for independence post #brexit?

Also could you explain your comment "want their own band of bigots and inept politicians working from Holyrood"? Bigoted in what sense?

[super_realist]

The Independence debate wasn't held on whether Scotland should be in the EU or not.

The question on the ballot paper was "Should Scotland be an Independent country?" That says nothing about Europe, or UK remaining in Europe.

We voted overwhelmingly No, and thus to stay in the Union. Putting a post Independence Referendum caveat in the next manifesto is simply a way of trying to shoehorn in yet another referendum.

I might not be an expert on the Scottish economy Diggers, but one of the main reasons cited for the failure of the Yes campaign was that they consistently failed to give any guarantees, or even any idea of how Scotland could or would be better off financially in an Independent Scotland whilst they had no answers on debt repayment, share of the debt, currency etc, and if you can't answer any questions like that, how could Scotland possibly be better off?

Their handling of the oil question showed how little they knew about the industry, as everyone working in it could already see the forthcoming problems. They just cited "Salmond used to work in oil taxation" as if that gave him credibility without realising this was nothing to do with the upstream industry which is where all the wealth is generated through discoveries and reserves.

The SNP would see a reason to hold a second independence debate in a cheese sandwich. Of course they hijack democracy. They cannot accept the results of Brexit, and cannot accept that we wanted to remain part of the Union. They can't reconcile those two things and cannot respect the democratic result.

Scotland hasn't been an "historically Independent nation" since 1707 Mac, so what are you talking about?

Mac, if you've never heard the anti English rhetoric and the claims of "not wanting to be run by a privileged elite" then you never watch the news and you never have had the unfortunate "pleasure" of having to hear the repulsive Mhairi Black.

It's not just the SNP either, it's imbeciles like Patrick Harvie too.

Scotland has had tax raising powers for a long time now, yet they've done nothing to address the issues the SNP is constantly complaining about and blaming Westminster for. They simply will not take responsibility for their own failings.

[pedro]

"not wanting to be run by a privileged elite"..

Are we talking about Westminster or Brussels?

[SmithersJones]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

[pedro]

In a democracy the morons vote counts as much as yours.

[super_realist]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

10% is by no means statistically insignificant.

I haven't ever said that the result of Brexit was correct, but the only stance you can take is that it's a democratic result regardless of how the battle was fought. If you think it was peddled on "a lie" then it's not the fault of democracy, it's the fault of those campaigning.

[SmithersJones]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

10% is by no means statistically insignificant.

I haven't ever said that the result of Brexit was correct, but the only stance you can take is that it's a democratic result regardless of how the battle was fought. If you think it was peddled on "a lie" then it's not the fault of democracy, it's the fault of those campaigning.

10% is closer to being insignificant than it is to being overwhelming. And if votes were cast based on inaccurate infomation it's not exactly democracy at its finest, is it? There's more to living in a democracy than just voting.

[Diggers]

Le Pen through to the final shoot out in the French elections. Scary times.

[dynamark]

Democracy digs.
Had to smile at the leaders today.Corbyn seems to think that closing the country down for another four days would not have an economic affect and The Libs promising another referendum lets go best of three until we get the result that suits.
All May has to do is say nothing and she wins by a mile.

[Diggers]

Yeah strange plan that DM, the extra holidays, apparently we do have the fewest in Europe but as a teacher I'm hardly in need myself.
Thing is he will get more stick for that than the Tories doing another massive policy U turn on taxation.
It's funny though, looks like a raving bigoted fascist is more popular in France than Corbyn is in the U.K. Not sure what that says about both countries!

[pedro]

It's funny though, looks like a raving bigoted fascist is more popular in France than Corbyn is in the U.K. Not sure what that says about both countries!

Too many immigrants perhaps?

[pedro]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

10% is by no means statistically insignificant.

I haven't ever said that the result of Brexit was correct, but the only stance you can take is that it's a democratic result regardless of how the battle was fought. If you think it was peddled on "a lie" then it's not the fault of democracy, it's the fault of those campaigning.

10% is closer to being insignificant than it is to being overwhelming. And if votes were cast based on inaccurate infomation it's not exactly democracy at its finest, is it? There's more to living in a democracy than just voting.

But you didn't fall for the inaccurate information because you are smarter than the people, smithers?

[kwinigolfer]

It's funny though, looks like a raving bigoted fascist is more popular in France than Corbyn is in the U.K. Not sure what that says about both countries!

Too many immigrants perhaps?

Whoever would have thought that France had so much in common with the USA?
Vive la difference, vive les similarities.

[I'm never wrong]

Nicola Sturgeon has only one thing on her mind.  (This links to a Facebook post.....)

[navyblueshorts]

Democracy digs.
Had to smile at the leaders today.Corbyn seems to think that closing the country down for another four days would not have an economic affect and The Libs promising another referendum lets go best of three until we get the result that suits.
All May has to do is say nothing and she wins by a mile.

Not sure there's a simplistic link between hours at work and productivity; in fact, there's not. That said, stupid to suggest 3 of the dates at a time when we have quite a few Bank Holidays already.

[navyblueshorts]

It's funny though, looks like a raving bigoted fascist is more popular in France than Corbyn is in the U.K. Not sure what that says about both countries!

Too many immigrants perhaps?

...or not and just plain racism/xenophobia?

[navyblueshorts]

Nicola Sturgeon has only one thing on her mind.  (This links to a Facebook post.....)

Brilliant. Sad at the same time that so many of the comments below it don't get the context i.e. that she claimed she didn't spend all her time talking about Scotland .

[Diggers]

Democracy digs.
Had to smile at the leaders today.Corbyn seems to think that closing the country down for another four days would not have an economic affect and The Libs promising another referendum lets go best of three until we get the result that suits.
All May has to do is say nothing and she wins by a mile.

Not sure there's a simplistic link between hours at work and productivity; in fact, there's not. That said, stupid to suggest 3 of the dates at a time when we have quite a few Bank Holidays already.

Another factor is so many people end up working bank holidays anyway, shops are open, cafes, attractions. Plus all the people on zero hours contracts (though this is another Corbyn target) miss a days paid work or will have to work regardless. If you want to do anything all the prices are hiked up...you are better off throwing a sickie (like I'm planning next Friday!).

[beninho]

So Illie Nastase, he is just plain racist?

[Roller_Coaster]

From what I've seen in the news, he seems like a bit of a tw@t.

[kwinigolfer]

So Illie Nastase, he is just plain racist?

Presidential material. If it works in the USA, perhaps it will work in Romania?

[superflyweight]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

10% is by no means statistically insignificant.

I haven't ever said that the result of Brexit was correct, but the only stance you can take is that it's a democratic result regardless of how the battle was fought. If you think it was peddled on "a lie" then it's not the fault of democracy, it's the fault of those campaigning.

10% is closer to being insignificant than it is to being overwhelming. And if votes were cast based on inaccurate infomation it's not exactly democracy at its finest, is it? There's more to living in a democracy than just voting.

At the risk of interrupting a conversation between regulars on this board, the actual number of people voting No was somewhere between 20-25% of the turnout higher than the number of people voting Yes. In a country of Scotland's size, that is statistically significant.

As you were golfers.

[navyblueshorts]

So Illie Nastase, he is just plain racist?

He's always been an unpleasant d!ckhead, but he gets away with it (or did) because "He's just Ilie". Hard to interpret his recent remarks in any other way, but when he was young, it was undoubtedly commonplace and 'acceptable'.

[super_realist]

When it comes to racism, it's a pretty endeminc problem in countries like Romania,Croatia, Bosnia, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Hungary etc, not an excuse, but we shouldn't be surprised.

Hopefully he'll be sacked.

[super_realist]

Just a couple of points.

'Overwhelming'; if you're overwhelmed by a statistically insignificant majority you're some kind of fuquit. Whilst the Scot's margin was 10% and so wasn't quite as insignificant as brexit, the point remains.

'Democracy'; means we all have an input at all times, not just when there's a vote. So 'respecting' the result is bollox - nobody decides they were wrong just because more people voted for the other option, especially on something so based on lies as brexit. If you decide it's the right thing just because everyone else says so you're a moron and no respecter of democracy as a system.

10% is by no means statistically insignificant.

I haven't ever said that the result of Brexit was correct, but the only stance you can take is that it's a democratic result regardless of how the battle was fought. If you think it was peddled on "a lie" then it's not the fault of democracy, it's the fault of those campaigning.

10% is closer to being insignificant than it is to being overwhelming. And if votes were cast based on inaccurate infomation it's not exactly democracy at its finest, is it? There's more to living in a democracy than just voting.

If you got a 10% pay rise, I doubt you'd find that insignificant,  (unless you're on a pittance like Mac). If you have an extra 10% chance of surviving cancer, I'm sure you wouldn't find that insignificant.
If someone told you, you could improve your golf score by 10%, I'm sure you wouldn't find that insignificant, If you could improve your driving distance by 10%, I'm sure you wouldn't find that insignificant, or if you could reduce your putts by 10%.

10% by any measure, is far from being insignificant.

How were votes cast on inaccurate information? You mean that voters aren't supposed to make their own mind up? Do they have to be spoonfed or do you trust them to come to their own conclusion or research on their own.

In regards to the Scottish Independence debate I didn't rely wholly on either side to give me the information. I thought about it for myself and did my own research.

[Diggers]

Ask 20 people in a room to make a choice, 11 say no, 9 say yes. Is that overwhelming?

[Davie]

Ask 200,000 people to make a choice, 110,000 say no, 90,000 say yes. Is that overwhelming?

[Diggers]

Not really.

[Diggers]

To be fair Davie, it was a clear enough win. For me not remotely overwhelming, but significant enough.
Super, re accepting democracy. I distinctly remember you saying you'd be off elsewhere if the vote came in Yes. Is that accepting a democratic decision?

[Be_the_ball]

Interesting to see McDonalds introducing zero hours contracts, i can't help thinking this will be more common after Brexit, that and a lowering of the minimum wage, possibly even an end to the NHS. The recent attempt to increase NI for the self employed and a move away from the no additional taxes stance of the last GE pretty much shows who's being lined up to pay for the cost of Brexit.

The people of the UK that get up every morning and get on with it will continue to do so, and those that sit around moaning will find something else to moan about. It seems very unfair on the people that generally get on with it.

It's like watching a car crash happening in slow motion.

Scotland would be mad to leave the UK now, especially with no guarantee of EU membership. But Westminster needs a serious kick up the back side, the idea that there was no representatives from Scotland, Wales or NI when article 50 was being drawn up is scandalous and seriously contemptuous.

[kwinigolfer]

Under/no representation during Tory governments from beyond the 100-mile London hinterland has been a problem for generations though, hasn't it?
Under representation in N.I. was no doubt a contributory cause for the Troubles; John Major once had a Cabinet with no representation from outside something like an 80-mile radius of Greater London. Blind eyes and deaf eyes sitting round the Cabinet Table, looking down on the rest of the nation.
Shocking that the latest generation are still so oblivious.

I've long thought we've had a nuanced version of that in the U.S. but not quite so obvious now the swamp is so infested.

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