England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[Geordie]

Ryan. Sorry no scotland england thread anymore. Contact with eyes on Hughes.

Ah right.

[nathan]

Ryan. Sorry no scotland england thread anymore. Contact with eyes on Hughes.

Pretty much expected. TMO should of done a better job

[Pot Hale]

Ryan. Sorry no scotland england thread anymore. Contact with eyes on Hughes.

Pretty much expected. TMO should of done a better job

Should have done a better job?

[stub]

Yes 7.5, he should’ve done a better job (excuse the grammar please, Pot.) A gouging offence being given would not have changed the outcome, but would it have been a fair shout in the circumstances. Consistency is very important in these instances in my humble opinion.

[yappysnap]

So a reconditioning camp...?

Is that another beasting session? Or will they be sensible...

Should they not be working on fixing certain areas from Saturday...

I imagine it'll more be assesments of fitness then beastings. At least I hope that's the case!

I was hoping Mercer may be in the squad, or Chisholm but it looks like it's only the usual flankers there

[Rugby Fan]

Looked back on this post of mine from another thread (I like to hear myself talk, too)

I was trying to think of all the questions which have been raised about Eddie Jones's England. Think it goes something like this:

1. Mike Brown - Not enough of an attacking threat. Past his sell by date. (said by lots of people, most recently, ex-England No.15 Matt Perry)

2. George Ford - Not the flyhalf to make England World Champions. Choose Farrell,  and find a centre pairing (said by Ben Ryan)

3. Dylan Hartley - Not our best hooker, we must be able to find leadership elsewhere rather than carry a passenger (lots of people, Stephen Jones this weekend)

4. No 3rd scrum half/no Dan Robson - Match day squad always needs two, so there's a risk our third choice won't know the game plan (LondonTiger above, and Austin Healey this week)

5. Elliot Daly not a proper winger, should be in the centre - Jones trying to shoehorn his attributes into the side at the expense of a specialist winger. (think Healey said that)

6. Scrum barely holding its own - two seasons in, we still don't know our best scrummaging unit because Jones places more value on work in the loose. Hurts us against good scrummaging teams. (my opinion, don't think I'm the only one holding it)

7. Back row uncertain - Armand overlooked. We seemed to be moving on from unit of Robshaw, Haskell, Vuniploa, but Haskell's recall suggests other flankers are still not getting much of a look-in. Jones still flirting with playing a lock on the flank but that wouldn't address our ineffectiveness at the breakdown. (favourite gripe of numerous rugby podcasts)

There are also general concerns about his preference for players like Piers Francis or Gary Graham, when they don't seem to be the obvious next cab off the rank.

As LondonTiger says above, these issues must have been considered by Jones and the England coaches, so they will have hunches or reasons for the decisions they are taking. If things do go wrong this season, I wonder if it will be in one of these areas, or another we haven't even though about.

Pretty much all of these factors have been cited in the aftermath of the loss. The only exception I can see is the question fo Daly's best position, because he's not playing.

There really aren't many new reasons being cited, with the possible exception of Owen Farrell's low tackling success rate.

[TJ]

Owen Farrells temper? did the pre game fracas cause him to lose focus? given the video evidence its going to be hard for the RFU to claim he was provoked given he runs up to Wilson and grabs him

[No 7&1/2]

Seems wilsons temper was worse.

[David-Douglas]

Seems wilsons temper was worse.

Wilson was on his back on the ground being attacked by Hughes who had his hands on Wilsons throat, a very cowardly thing to do. Wilson was defending himself from being strangled, he was close to Hughes eye but not in it.

[kingelderfield]

Forget the tunnel touch up, its irrelevant. The back row is the primary issue. Without possession we're toast.
What we do when we have possession is the next question, and not aimlessly kicking it away is a start. We need to attack with ball in hand preferable off the floor with speed away from the tackle, launchbury's offload by example, both directly and with width. Rugby brains are required.
F&F work because between them they have accurately exploited space and Ford has a decent level of vision and creativity that adds to the mix. Which is all to nothing if you don't have the ball.
I was happy with Hartley's hooking performance but the lack of in game captaincy was a real concern. To be fair only England 03 had the intelligence, maturity and playing options / ability to really change strategy in game. However rightly or wrongly people need to accept this is EJ's selection and I doubt much will change, especially captaincy and more broadly playing strategy. Get use to the poor kicking.

[No 7&1/2]

Yes Hughes reacted in the game and wilson too. Hughes hasn't been cited and according to the laws you'll get a ban if you go near the eye area. He'll get the ban.

[Geordie]

Seems wilsons temper was worse.

Wilson was on his back on the ground being attacked by Hughes who had his hands on Wilsons throat, a very cowardly thing to do. Wilson was defending himself from being strangled, he was close to Hughes eye but not in it.

Bu what caused him to do that?/ Wilson is a n0b head who was stoking it up all game. Maybe he went too far and got a reaction he wasn't expecting??

[No 7&1/2]

I would say I think out communication with hartley from some of the rest of the players needs to be better as I'm assuming Hughes and Farrell didn't tell.him about potential infringements. He's normally a captain who speaks well yo refs and requests for incidents to be looked at re hands in eyes neck rolls etc. I didn't hear anything on saturday about those 2.

[robbo277]

Some talk here on some of the England players being below par and in need of a rest. Ireland with their central contracts have restricted some of their Lions to 4/5 hours of club rugby whereas Itoje and Lawes have played 12/13. It will make a difference. With that in mind and jumping ahead a wee bit who would you leave at home during the 3 test tour of South Africa in the summer? Who would really benefit from some rest and a proper pre-season? And who should go on tour? I would rest some Lions who have played lots of rugby this season. Others who have been out with injuries probably need to play. Plus we still want the momentum from winning so need to try and take a very strong squasd whilst still looking after some key individuals prior to a huge season next season.

Stay behind and rest: Itoje, Lawes, Cole, Farrell, Mako, JJ,

Go on the tour: Billy V, Manu, T'eo, Hughes, Kruis, Ford, George (needs to start at 2), Daly (let's see how he fares at 15), Sinckler, Launchbury

Any other thoughts?

If we look at buildings a squad, I'd start with the 27 picked this week, take out a few who could do with the rest as you've identified and then add some of his usual squad players who are currently not fit.

Mako, Marler, Hartley, George, Cole, Williams, Sinckler, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Kruis, Ewels, Robshaw, Haskell, Underhill, Hughes
Care, Wigglesworth, Ford, Farrell, Te'o, Joseph, Nowell, Daly, Watson, Brown

Then add: Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs, Simmonds, Tuilagi and Slade who normally in squads if fit.

Probably needs a bit more depth in the tight 5, so Mullan, Obano, Cowan-Dickie and Isiekwe could all be added. Mercer might come in, possibly in place of Robshaw if he is rested.

In the backs, players such as Lozowski, Francis, Marchant, Mallinder, Earle and Solomona could all be considered as options to tour.

Players getting injured between now and then will factor into it, but I think this is how Eddie Jones will be thinking for the summer.

[Geordie]

I think the only change that will be made will be to remove a lock and put Underhill in.

Eddie might not even make a change, and go down the route of giving them all the chance to re-deem themselves...

[BamBam]

Would be a mistake, because I have no doubt they'd roll over a French side whose pack is perfectly suited to this style

Its the speedy fetcher type 7s who look like they give us the biggest problem, given Leavy's performances so far I think we'd be saying the same thing after playing Ireland

[Geordie]

I definitely think Underhill should be in there.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes (Im still far from convinced. I think I would rather Simmonds there if fit)

[Geordie]

I also think Tom Curry needs to be looked at more closely.

He's an intelligent 7.

[Exiledinborders]

I definitely think Underhill should be in there.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Hughes (Im still far from convinced. I think I would rather Simmonds there if fit)

I have never been convinced even when he is fully fit and I am even less convinced about playing with no game time.

[BamBam]

I also think Tom Curry needs to be looked at more closely.

He's an intelligent 7.

Definitely joining you on this bandwagon

[Geordie]

I also think Tom Curry needs to be looked at more closely.

He's an intelligent 7.

Definitely joining you on this bandwagon

I just thought his performance in Argentina last summer was outstanding for a new kid, and some of his games for Sale (when not injured) have been classy.

But we do have a number of young loose forwards coming through .

Edit: And Ben Curry has been playing well also!

[Rugby Fan]

this is how Eddie Jones will be thinking for the summer.

Jones is a hard taskmaster. He won't be thinking of resting anyone.

[BamBam]

Ben Curry looks the more adept at the breakdown to me, but Tom just looks so physical for his age, he was really putting in some thumping tackles in the games he featured in. Would not fancy facing a flanker pairing of him and Underhill!

[Geordie]

this is how Eddie Jones will be thinking for the summer.

Jones is a hard taskmaster. He won't be thinking of resting anyone.

And there is the positive and negative of Eddie Jones....I just hope he's not driving the players in to the ground whilst the likes of the AB's and Ireland etc come in fresh and raring to go!

[robbo277]

Ben Curry looks the more adept at the breakdown to me, but Tom just looks so physical for his age, he was really putting in some thumping tackles in the games he featured in. Would not fancy facing a flanker pairing of him and Underhill!

Telegraph tweeted out an article (think the full article was behind a paywall), but the synopsis was that Ben had made 9 turnovers this season and conceded 16 penalties, and I think the article was geared up to talk about whether that is an acceptable ratio and whether it might indicate why Jones may be leaning away from having a breakdown specialist, i.e. if they're not quite at the required level, are they going to be more of a liability?

[robbo277]

this is how Eddie Jones will be thinking for the summer.

Jones is a hard taskmaster. He won't be thinking of resting anyone.

He rested players in the Autumn, albeit only for a game or two. But a tour is a different dynamic to a home series, so I think it's a lot more likely that you're in for the whole thing or not at all.

[BamBam]

Ben Curry looks the more adept at the breakdown to me, but Tom just looks so physical for his age, he was really putting in some thumping tackles in the games he featured in. Would not fancy facing a flanker pairing of him and Underhill!

Telegraph tweeted out an article (think the full article was behind a paywall), but the synopsis was that Ben had made 9 turnovers this season and conceded 16 penalties, and I think the article was geared up to talk about whether that is an acceptable ratio and whether it might indicate why Jones may be leaning away from having a breakdown specialist, i.e. if they're not quite at the required level, are they going to be more of a liability?

That's interesting, would be a good read. Goes back to the arguments for Steffon Armitage not so long ago

[No 7&1/2]

I'm starting to think pen stats are pointless after the weekend. How.often are refs playing advantage in their heads and not calling it?

[Geordie]

Ben Curry looks the more adept at the breakdown to me, but Tom just looks so physical for his age, he was really putting in some thumping tackles in the games he featured in. Would not fancy facing a flanker pairing of him and Underhill!

Telegraph tweeted out an article (think the full article was behind a paywall), but the synopsis was that Ben had made 9 turnovers this season and conceded 16 penalties, and I think the article was geared up to talk about whether that is an acceptable ratio and whether it might indicate why Jones may be leaning away from having a breakdown specialist, i.e. if they're not quite at the required level, are they going to be more of a liability?

That's interesting, would be a good read. Goes back to the arguments for Steffon Armitage not so long ago

Yes its quite interesting.

But that leaves you between a rock and a hard place then.

Because teams like Scotland, Ireland, NZ, Australia will just target the breakdown constantly against England.

[robbo277]

Ben Curry looks the more adept at the breakdown to me, but Tom just looks so physical for his age, he was really putting in some thumping tackles in the games he featured in. Would not fancy facing a flanker pairing of him and Underhill!

Telegraph tweeted out an article (think the full article was behind a paywall), but the synopsis was that Ben had made 9 turnovers this season and conceded 16 penalties, and I think the article was geared up to talk about whether that is an acceptable ratio and whether it might indicate why Jones may be leaning away from having a breakdown specialist, i.e. if they're not quite at the required level, are they going to be more of a liability?

That's interesting, would be a good read. Goes back to the arguments for Steffon Armitage not so long ago

Yes its quite interesting.

But that leaves you between a rock and a hard place then.

Because teams like Scotland, Ireland, NZ, Australia will just target the breakdown constantly against England.

Just because you don't have a player who can disrupt opposition ball, doesn't mean you can't have players who will secure your ball. They are different skills, it's just that back row tend to be best at both because that's their main role.

We don't have a player who can disrupt opposition ball, so Eddie's plan is to fill the back 5 of the scrum with the biggest guys available who can smash rucks clear in attack and leave the ball and just smash the next carrier in defence.

It didn't work against Scotland or Ireland previously in 2017, but has worked in the other 20-odd games he's been in charged.

If we tried to bring in more breakdown savvy, would we be doing any better? Or would a focus on attacking opposition rucks potentially lead to more penalties conceded?

[Geordie]

You need a fine balance...smashing the sh1t out of the opposition works in some occasions, others you need to change the tactics.

Maybe its a horses for courses kind of attitude. Underhill and the Currys look good though

[Barney McGrew did it]

A BR needs balance as much as specialist skills. And one of the elements of balance has to be pace. Lawes, Robshaw & Billy/Hughes has many things, but pace isn’t one of them. It doesn’t help that one is a lock who dabbles a bit with flanker in a side lying 3rd from bottom. The whole pack also needs more commitment to the tackle/ruck. Injuries have hampered EJ, but I’m not convinced this is an area where he’s on top of his game, given he's had 3 years to sort it.

Having said that the France game is not one where pace will be a problem - too many fat boys. Ireland is a different matter.

[beshocked]

Basteraud running at Ford and Farrell (with the way he's defending) is a bit worrying though.

The good thing is that France looked very disorganised vs Italy.

It's not a bad time to play France, yes they beat Italy but performance wise I can't say there's that much to fear if England keep the error and penalty count down aside from the Basteraud issue I've already mentioned.

[Geordie]

I agree about pace (and explosiveness) Barney.

I think seeing what Simmonds has offered has got people thinking. Hughes is going to have to really start convincing people in that 8 shirt or he may well lose it.

[Geordie]

Basteraud running at Ford and Farrell (with the way he's defending) is a bit worrying though.

The good thing is that France looked very disorganised vs Italy.

It's not a bad time to play France, yes they beat Italy but performance wise I can't say there's that much to fear if England keep the error and penalty count down aside from the Basteraud issue I've already mentioned.

France looked shockingly poor Beshocked, but the key thing is unlike previous French sides, I don't think this one has the ability to be school boy poor one week and breathtaking the next.

[robbo277]

Basteraud running at Ford and Farrell (with the way he's defending) is a bit worrying though.

The good thing is that France looked very disorganised vs Italy.

It's not a bad time to play France, yes they beat Italy but performance wise I can't say there's that much to fear if England keep the error and penalty count down aside from the Basteraud issue I've already mentioned.

The game against Italy suited Basteraud, because it was slow-paced.

You could say that a slow game would suit our back row, but our backline is set up to attack fast and wide - which is probably where there is a slight disconnect and a lack of joined-up thinking.

However, the prospect of Joseph, May and Watson picking lines off Ford and Farrell should provide as many problems for Basteraud and the french defence as he'd provide for us.

[BamBam]

Pinching this from an Irish thread

Munster set to sign Irish-qualified fullback Mike Haley from Sale Sharks

http://www.the42.ie/munster-mike-haley-fullback-signing-3874067-Feb2018/

Surprising move since Haley is on the fringes of England team (played for Saxons and England v. Barbarians).

He is being brought in as Zebo is leaving.

Plenty of players have gone from Munster that I don't mind losing, but Zebo is a huge loss from every point of view (on and off the pitch).

Interesting given we've discussed him as a potential option. Back to Malins then

[Geordie]

That's Interesting....as we mentioned him.

So does playing for the Saxons not mean hes nailed to England?

[SecretFly]

Surely England v Barbarians is an even more conclusive stamping of his card than Saxons?

[BamBam]

Nope - as he played against the South Africa A team it doesn't bind him to England, because SA's binding team is the U20 side I believe.

You have to play for your own "second team" against another countries "second team" in order for it to be binding

Equally, as the Baa Baas game was a non capped game, that doesn't count either. So he's well within his rights to play for Ireland!

[Geordie]

Ah well that will be an interesting one to watch...

[SecretFly]

The GREY area! Sport loves the GREY area.
Whatever about project players coming in to play for another Nation after 3 now 5 years.... this concept of being a mature enough player, playing for one Nation but due to greyness being able to shift to another, I just don't think it's right.
These guys are mature enough to make up their minds earlier and be held to it.

[hugehandoff]

It will be interesting to see how England play against the French. So far it has all been about reverting to a set piece and structured game, but that won't be smart against France with all their huge and allegedly unfit players. A faster game with more ball in play time should be beneficial. Especially with so many French players still dropped including Teddy Thomas and Picamoles. We need enough physicality to stop them on the gain line and an ability to win and retain possession, going through the phases, to tire them out. Underhill fits the bill perfectly for me. A tree cutter who can also secure the ball. The forwards need to front up. Get the win here and then we can repay the favour the Irish gave to us last year.

[beshocked]

Basteraud running at Ford and Farrell (with the way he's defending) is a bit worrying though.

The good thing is that France looked very disorganised vs Italy.

It's not a bad time to play France, yes they beat Italy but performance wise I can't say there's that much to fear if England keep the error and penalty count down aside from the Basteraud issue I've already mentioned.

France looked shockingly poor Beshocked, but the key thing is unlike previous French sides, I don't think this one has the ability to be school boy poor one week and breathtaking the next.

True, France did look poor but England didn't look too good ourselves.

France has some big units. Sure we are fortunate there is no Picamoles or Thomas.

Unfortunately I worry a win for England might paper over cracks.


If England are going to continue retaining Ford-Farrell I do think that Manu would offer than Joseph at 13 if he can stay fit.


England lack balance in the backline and pack.

[hugehandoff]

We do lack balance, but to be fair to Eddie injuries have got in the way. With T'eo and Manu missing through injury he has had to retain the Ford/Farrell axis. That is very effective when England have the ball, but less so when on mainly defensive duties. Maybe then Farrell, Manu/T'eo and JJ/T'eo/Manu would be more effective? South African tests must be used to experiment a little.

[robbo277]

Nope - as he played against the South Africa A team it doesn't bind him to England, because SA's binding team is the U20 side I believe.

You have to play for your own "second team" against another countries "second team" in order for it to be binding

Equally, as the Baa Baas game was a non capped game, that doesn't count either. So he's well within his rights to play for Ireland!

Interesting that SA can name their Under-20s if they have an A team, would the A team not automatically be deemed the second team? I guess it could have been SA Barbarians or something, and therefore seen as an invitational team (i.e. they may have only picked SA eligible players, but they weren't bound to do so).

The GREY area!  Sport loves the GREY area.  
Whatever about project players coming in to play for another Nation after 3 now 5 years.... this concept of being a mature enough player, playing for one Nation but due to greyness being able to shift to another, I just don't think it's right.
These guys are mature enough to make up their minds earlier and be held to it.

I think it definitely needs looking at. My solution would be when you reach a certain age (e.g. 20/21) or as soon as you sign your first professional contract (whichever is the latter) you should declare for who you are going to play for. If you play a full cap international before declaring, that is obviously a deemed declaration.

Dual-nationality players and players that move young can therefore play age groups in their country of residence and make up their mind when they're old enough to make an informed choice. Players who move before they're 15/16 can qualify and declare for their new country. But players who move as older professionals will not be able to declare for that country.

A player like Haley (who won't be a residency qualifier for Ireland) could have declared for England at 21 (and would be ineligible for Ireland) or Ireland (and would have been ineligible for England - therefore probably would have not played the uncapped games he did).

I'm aware that this is only one example and would mean a number of England's current team would fall foul of this too. But it has needed looking at for a while.

[robbo277]

We do lack balance, but to be fair to Eddie injuries have got in the way. With T'eo and Manu missing through injury he has had to retain the Ford/Farrell axis. That is very effective when England have the ball, but less so when on mainly defensive duties. Maybe then Farrell, Manu/T'eo and JJ/T'eo/Manu would be more effective? South African tests must be used to experiment a little.  

Farrell, Manu and Joseph have (briefly) lined up together at 10/12/13 for England in South Africa, back under Lancaster in 2012.

Manu and Joseph played together T2 but outside Flood, with Farrell coming on for Strettle and Joseph shifting out onto the wing.

Lancaster lined up the same for T3, but Flood came off after 12 minutes. The combo lasted 43 minutes, with Farrell missing 8 minutes with a blood bin and Joseph eventually making way for Barritt in the 63rd minute.

With Joseph missing large parts of the first half of Lancaster's reign and Manu missing large parts of the second half, have we been robbed of the answer to all our midfield woes for the last 6 years?

[formerly known as Sam]

Haley signed a new three year contract with Sale in 2016. Can't see Steve Diamond letting him walk early without compensation. Well unless a decent tight five forward went the other way.

[TJ]

Seems wilsons temper was worse.

I don't think he lost his temper - he just likes a rammy. It seems to me that if someone gets under Farrells skin he loses some of his game management

[No 7&1/2]

Well ones ending in a ban and it's not Farrell.

[Sponsored content]