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Glasgow and Edinburgh banter thread no. 23 - New season, new thread

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Post by BigGee on Mon 09 Sep 2019, 5:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well a new season is probably time to start off a new thread.

2 weeks to the start of the season and both sides with one more pre season game to go. A lot of unknowns this season again, due to the number of players away with Scotland and other countries for the WC.

For Glasgow, can they continue their general excellence that took them on a fantastic end of season run to the Pro 14 Final, where they just fell short. It might be their last campaign under Dave Rennie, so can they go one better?

Edinburgh also have questions to ask, the main one being whether they can ever pass the ball past the FH and how soon before their wingers are likely to go blue from hypothermia? On a more positive note though, they may finally be playing in Mini Murrayfield by autumn 2020. So only one more year to bear playing in the library!

Good luck to both teams for the coming season, though Edinburgh are more likely to need it than Glasgow!

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Post by RDW on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 9:41 am

Matt Scott in the papers this morning saying the players had to persuade Cockers to let them have a more attacking gameplan this season. He even went as far as saying it's not in Cockers' DNA to be attack minded!

On one had that doesn't look great a player saying these things as it undermines the coach, but i don't see Cockers taking it that way (for Matt Scott's sake!). If this was football the red tops would be having a field day about it - luckily rugby journalists are a bit more measured!

He did say however that they did it on the promise they would look after the ball and not just ship it wide all the time and get turned over, which was good to hear (Scotland and Glasgow take note!)

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:32 am

RDW wrote:Matt Scott in the papers this morning saying the players had to persuade Cockers to let them have a more attacking gameplan this season. He even went as far as saying it's not in Cockers' DNA to be attack minded!

On one had that doesn't look great a player saying these things as it undermines the coach, but i don't see Cockers taking it that way (for Matt Scott's sake!). If this was football the red tops would be having a field day about it - luckily rugby journalists are a bit more measured!

He did say however that they did it on the promise they would look after the ball and not just ship it wide all the time and get turned over, which was good to hear (Scotland and Glasgow take note!)

See I admire Cokers 100% if this is true.

In business jargon land this shows he has empowered his team. They felt able to go to him and ask if the plan could be tweaked. He's listened to them and given them the oppertunity to run with thier idea.

I'm pretty sure he's still coaching them on the defensive side and ball retention and in effect they have a license to attack but if things are not working out, Cockers can put the call down to go back to 10 man rugby. Basically Edinburgh now have a plan B and a plan A (we try plan B first but if its not working, plan A, the coaches prefered plan, gets fired up)

The players now have the world at thier feet. Win and win well with thier preferred attacking style of rugby or its back to 10 man stuff with Bennett mostly jsut running dummy lines all night.
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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:48 am

Saw that article too and think it reflects well on cockers. If only he had someone other than Hodge as attack coach, this may have actually happened sooner but credit to hodge, Edinburgh are finally looking a bit sharper in the backs. Still think he's long past his stay as an Edinburgh coach though. Also of note is that Cockers is finally talking about player rotation. I think someone must've had a word upstairs too.

Excited to see how Edinburgh do this year. They should be aiming for the challenge cup and the pro14 finals.
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Post by RDW on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:57 am

It also puts accountability on the players - the point about making sure they retain possession is key.

We will have much sterner tests to come, but the games so far have shown we're not just flinging it wide with no go forwards (i.e. the Toonie way), and we have generally retained the ball when do so. Big carries from Scott and Bennett have really helped with this.

Things are looking positive for Edinburgh, which of course means we're going to lose to Treviso this weekend and be back to negativity again!

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Post by BigGee on Tue 29 Oct 2019, 3:43 pm


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Post by BigGee on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:47 pm

I see from Twitter that Racing said goodbye to SHC today. He was only ever there as WC cover and it looks like his time is up.

Does he still have a future in professional rugby?

He seems to good a player to be ending up on the scrap heap in his mid 20s but in truth he has never really lived up to his early promise either.

He remains a better player than a few who have turned out for Scottish professional sides over the past few seasons, Kennedy, Frisby etc but no-one seems to have been able to harness his obvious talents and turn him into a true international SH. There is always the suspicion that he is slightly hard to manage as well and maybe thinks he is a bit better than he maybe is in reality.

I would be surprised if either club in Scotland would now take a punt on him, with the SH talent they already have on their books and his best bet will likely be to remain in France and hope some side picks him up as an injury joker. I hope for his sake that he has a good agent!

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Post by RDW on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:51 pm

Yeah that is a shame. It's madness that a player like Nick Frisby makes a living for Glasgow and SHC can't get a club. He's had a few short term deals now that haven't been made permanent so that says a lot. Neither Scottish club needs him, and it's bad timing as all the world cup players will be coming back to clubs soon!

He does have a young kid though so it is far from ideal for him that he has no security.

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Post by BigGee on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:03 pm

Not sure that Frisby will be making a living at Glasgow past the end of this season.

Interestingly Glasgow have left him out of their euro squad in favour of the 18 year old Dobie, who really does seem to be being fast tracked into the big time.

With Horne and Price back and Niko also in the squad, am not sure he is going to be seeing much game time this season, but next year with a season of experience and conditioning behind him, who knows where he might end up.

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Post by jimbopip on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:16 pm

Right chaps, two things Whistle firstly... don't be shocked if the bufties at HQ decide that Hairless Hodge has done such a great job with the Luvvies backs that he should be given Glasgow to "improve "
secondly, Why??? is now fourth choice 9 at Scotstoun. The only reason he isn't fifth is that DR's lack of a sense of humour means he will never play MadMata at 9. I don't know about Why??? not playing next season, I'll be surprised if he plays much after Halloween.

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Post by tigertattie on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:30 am

jimbopip wrote:Right chaps, two things Whistle firstly... don't be shocked if the bufties at HQ decide that Hairless Hodge has done such a great job with the Luvvies backs that he should be given Glasgow to "improve "
secondly, Why??? is now fourth choice 9 at Scotstoun. The only reason he isn't fifth is that DR's lack of a sense of humour means he will never play MadMata at 9. I don't know about Why???  not playing next season,  I'll be surprised if he plays much after Halloween.

Abosolutely no point sending Hodge to Glasgow as his attack play requires a forward pack to be competent to give the backs a platform. Hug
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Post by RDW on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:37 am

Sounds like Edinburgh aren't going to rush back the Scotland players for the trip to Treviso. The players that have played so far have done well but this is going to be a big step up - Treviso are a good team these days and will likely have all their international players back given their last group game was cancelled.

I don't think we need to change the backs much but I'd bring Toolis back into the 2nd row and probably Berghan too - neither played much. Wouldn't say no to Mata at number 8 but Miller and Haining have played well. This is professionals sport though and winning would be a huge boost for the rest of the season. We'll maybe see a fully loaded bench, which is no bad thing.

If I was in charge I'd go for something like this - gradual reintroduction of the players instead of bringing all back in one:

1 Schoeman
2 Willemse
3 Berghan
4 McKenzie
5 Toolis
6 Bradbury
7 Crosbie
8 Mata

9 Pyrgos (looked a bit better with the new attacking style, plus Groom has just had a baby
10 Hickey (did well last week – he should be challenged to back it up)
11 VDM
12 Scott
13 Bennett
14 Sau (I’d like to see more of the sledgehammer!)
15 Kinghorn

Subs – Bhattie, Fenton, Ciccarelli, Douglas, Miller, Shiel, VDW, Johnson


Some of the Scotland players have been given a long time off – McInally is still in Australia!


Last edited by RDW on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BigGee on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:40 am

Haining got injured i think, looked like he did something to his hand

Could be an excuse to bring back Mata

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Post by Tramptastic on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:44 am

Or punt Bradbury in at 8 as ideally that's where he will be playing for Scotland going forward?

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Post by RDW on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:45 am

Tramptastic wrote:Or punt Bradbury in at 8 as ideally that's where he will be playing for Scotland going forward?

I've liked the look of him at 6 - that's been our problem position for years, plus Mata will be playing 8 for Edinburgh.

Thomson and Fagerson the future at 8 for scotland

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Post by Tramptastic on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:50 am

I agree he's a useful 6 (and a very good one at that) and having the ability to play a lighter weight backrow, ritchie + watson + Bradbury, or swapping out for a slightly chonkier backrow, Bradbury + Watson + Thomson, is brilliant going forward.

and as you say, Fagerson is in the mix too, 6.Bradbury 7. Watson/Ritchie 8. Fagerson looks really silky

is... is that... hope? are we dark horses yet?

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Post by RDW on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 9:54 am

I wouldn't say hope but it is certainly potential! What's for sure is that Barclay and Wilson should only be 'in case of injury emergency break glass' options going forwards.

I'd lvoe to see Bradbury really push on and put himself in the frame for a Lions spot. He's exactly the kind of player that would thrive on a tour to SA and has all the attributes.

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Post by Tramptastic on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 10:16 am

I'd say if Ritchie, Watson and Bradbury continue their form they'd be up for contention.

Watson is exactly the kind of 7 you'd want to take to South Africa - excellent over the ball and a fantastic carrier for someone his size

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Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 11:06 am

From what I could see Haining’s thumb look didn’t look right when he went off. I’m no doctor (or any form of medical professional) but it might see him miss the Benetton game.

If that’s the case I think we might see Bradbury start at 8 given he took over from Haining at the weekend. I wouldn’t look to start introducing the rest of the internationals until next weekend at home against the Dragons.

I’m, also pretty glad McInally is getting a long break, he’s played a lot of rugby over the last couple of seasons, and probably needs it. Plus the SA lad who’s name I’ve not learnt how to spell yet seems a more than able deputy, plus with Cherry and Fenton around, we should be able to cover a few weeks without him.


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Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 12:41 pm

Also I wouldn't be totally shocked if SHC was brought into Glasgow on a short term deal, even just to provide cover until Price is back fit again. Assuming his bridges with the SRU haven't totally been burnt, following the breakdown in contract talks when he was with Edinburgh.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 12:55 pm


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Post by BigGee on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 1:14 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:Also I wouldn't be totally shocked if SHC was brought into Glasgow on a short term deal, even just to provide cover until Price is back fit again.   Assuming his bridges with the SRU haven't totally been burnt, following the breakdown in contract talks when he was with Edinburgh.

Can't see it, Price was only meant to be a short-medium term injury and they have included him in the euro squad, so clearly don't think he will be out that long. Plus Hornito is back this weekend and with Dobie and Niko, we should be well enough covered for now.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 2:08 pm

BigGee wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Also I wouldn't be totally shocked if SHC was brought into Glasgow on a short term deal, even just to provide cover until Price is back fit again.   Assuming his bridges with the SRU haven't totally been burnt, following the breakdown in contract talks when he was with Edinburgh.

Can't see it, Price was only meant to be a short-medium term injury and they have included him in the euro squad, so clearly don't think he will be out that long. Plus Hornito is back this weekend and with Dobie and Niko, we should be well enough covered for now.

You could easily be right, and I’m not saying I think it’s nailed on or anything like that, I’m just coming at it from the point of view that Frisby has failed to impress in pretty much every game he’s played for Glasgow.  

Nico hasn’t really been regarded as a 9 by Glasgow for at least a couple of seasons now.

Dobie is a very young lad, and whilst from cameos he’s looked good, it’s still really early for him.  

Price is out for now and may well be back soon, but currently isn’t fit.  

That leaves Horne and Dobie as fit and not terrible 9s, and when the 6 nations comes round Glasgow are going to be losing Price and Horne again which means they’re going to have to rely on Dobie &/or Frisby again.

In theory given SHC is without a club, has recently had a child, he may want to be closer to home for a spell and possibly wouldn’t be as expensive as he made himself when he left Edinburgh.

As I say, I’m not saying this is happening, just if the finances worked out, it wouldn’t be the worst idea for both parties.

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Post by BigGee on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 2:56 pm

For better or worse (most likely the worse), i suspect we will be stuck with Frisby for the rest of this season.

I guess we could be tight on SH cover over the 6N period again, especially if Dobie gets released to play u20s.

Its got to be paid for though and a willingness to do that might depend on hos our season is going generally.

I still think SHC has a better chance of getting picked up by a Frrench team in the short term.

He surely needs a proper contract for next season though or else that is his career done.

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Post by RDW on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 7:42 am

https://www.theoffsideline.com/jonny-gray-rested/

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Post by BigGee on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:45 am

RDW wrote:https://www.theoffsideline.com/jonny-gray-rested/

Probably a good move for JG and for Scotland, maybe not so much for Glasgow!

Maybe it is the SRU demonstrating to Johnny that he will get well looked after if he chooses to remain in Scotland after the end of this contract this year.

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Post by RDW on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:47 am

Is it just me or has he had a lot of looking after the last few years? I remember he barely played before the 6N partly due to injury but he was also given extended rest periods.

There's got to be a balance obviously, but you look at Maro Itoje who is one of the best locks in the world and he does get looked after but doesn't get extended breaks like this!

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Post by BigGee on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 8:52 am

To be fair to him, he looked like he was struggling for fitness right through the WC period, warms up and the actual games. Despite that he may well have been our best player versus Japan.

Hopefully he just needs a few more weeks to get himself back into proper shape. He is still a very important player for us and we need him back, fully fit and firing.

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 9:03 am

Maybe it's a mental health thing? As noted above, its not like he's been physically overworked but he might be struggling mentally with the effort to get back fit and on form and subsequently being swiftly knocked out. Mentally, thats huge to deal with and some people will deal with it quicker than others.

Either that or he was carrying injuries and is taking some time to work through them?

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Post by BigGee on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:21 pm

https://www.theoffsideline.com/stuart-mcinally-edinburgh/

A few Edinburgh players having the longer break as well, McInally and Nel in particular.

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Post by RDW on Fri 01 Nov 2019, 10:37 pm

That'll explain why he's still in Australia!

Makes sense I suppose, especially if we're going fully loaded to SA and NZ. Which we surely need to do if we don't want to get humped (which might happen anyway!)

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Post by BigGee on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:31 pm

Glasgow new LH prop from the Highlanders landed in Glasgow this evening, I wonder if we will see him off the bench next weekend in prep for the euro ties.

Another 5 points next weekend and we will be back in the mix in our conference,

Cheetahs as predicted, not finding it quite so easy over in Europe and in the bad weather. Our ambition now must surely be a playoff place. We are not winning our table from here but play ourselves into form and a playoff place and who knows?

Edinburgh reverted to form big style and don't really look ready to take the mantle of Scotland's top club team!

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Post by tigertattie on Sat 02 Nov 2019, 9:53 pm

Well that’s it. Game Over

Thom Evans singing swing low on the X factor.

I’m done.
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Post by RDW on Sun 03 Nov 2019, 11:31 am

On the Edinburgh game, on paper a LBP away to a fully loaded Treviso team is not too bad a result given we were missing a full pack and bench worth of international players, but it still rankles me that we lost that. Not just the two late missed kicks that would have won it, but the complete collapse of our lineout. We must have lost 5 or 6 in the 2nd half and they could have led to scoring opportunities that made the missed kicks moot.

Before the game I said I would have picked Toolis to solidify the pack - looks like it was a mistake to leave him out as he's the best lineout forward in Scotland. Apparently him and Berghan were available for selection but Cockerill kept faith with the fringe players. Cicarelli was kept on for most of the game - old habits die hard.

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 6:31 am

Who is kicking the goals for the Effeminates at the moment, anyway? Is it Pyrgos?
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Post by RDW on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 7:36 am

VDW who is normally very good - he was one of the most accurate in the league last season.

Unfortunately we can't blame Pyrgos for everything!

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 7:17 pm

In other news, Rory Hutchinson continues to impress at Northampton.

Gave a beautiful pass out the Big T for a try and also did his fair share of defensive duties. Ran a great line with a deft offload for another try.

Rory’s mantra is to get the ball to big T ASAP. Very much the Scotland mould of getting it wide early

Special mention to big T who just seems unstoppable for saints. Shows that even the mighty Glasgow sometimes waste a perfectly good back
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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Nov 2019, 7:26 pm

He is turning into to a very decent player

In case you did not notice, Big T is not quite as big anymore Saints have knocked him into shape in the same way that Sarries have to Skelton and made them much better plsyers in the process.

Unfortunately his time at Glasgow was over before it even began, due to all the contract Shenanigans. I imsgine we would have got him into shape as well eventually but in the end it was not really worthehile!

On the subject of being out of shape, appatently Ben Tamifola came back from Japan 20kg overweight at 160kg!

Racing are said to be furious and told him to lose 20kg before he even thinks about playing again.

He clearly enjoys a bit of sushi!

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Post by George Carlin on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 5:06 am

BigGee wrote:He is turning into to a very decent player

In case you did not notice, Big T is not quite as big anymore  Saints have knocked him into shape in the same way that Sarries have to Skelton and made them much better plsyers in the process.

Unfortunately his time at Glasgow was over before it even began, due to all the contract Shenanigans.  I imsgine we would have got him into shape as well eventually but in the end it was not really worthehile!

On the subject of being out of shape, appatently Ben Tamifola came back from Japan 20kg overweight at 160kg!

Racing are said to be furious and told him to lose 20kg before he even thinks about playing again.

He clearly enjoys a bit of sushi!
Nothing wrong with needing to lose 20 kg... warning
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Post by tigertattie on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 12:58 pm

George Carlin wrote:
BigGee wrote:He is turning into to a very decent player

In case you did not notice, Big T is not quite as big anymore  Saints have knocked him into shape in the same way that Sarries have to Skelton and made them much better plsyers in the process.

Unfortunately his time at Glasgow was over before it even began, due to all the contract Shenanigans.  I imsgine we would have got him into shape as well eventually but in the end it was not really worthehile!

On the subject of being out of shape, appatently Ben Tamifola came back from Japan 20kg overweight at 160kg!

Racing are said to be furious and told him to lose 20kg before he even thinks about playing again.

He clearly enjoys a bit of sushi!
Nothing wrong with needing to lose 20 kg... warning

It has to be said though, managing to put on 20KG in that time is mighty impressive. Considering many players lost weight due to the humidity and training done out there, to put on 20kg is worthy of applause.

Even Gordie Read dropped a dress size while he was over there!
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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 1:52 pm

How about this for some top level conspiracy theorying (it's a word...)

Glasgow arguably needed a new FB when Hoggy left, but haven't signed anyone, despite knowing they'd be light at FB. Sarries have a former Glasgow player who's preference is to play FB.

Here's the theory/rumour - I wonder if Sarries knew this level of punishment was possible and sounded out a few players about possibly moving on. Maits/his agent could well have been on the phone to Rennie/Bombrys letting them know he could be available depending on the level of punishment. Given it's pretty massive, my totally well thought out and near 100% guaranteed to happen* rumour is that Maits contract at Sarries will be cancelled/bought out for a nominal fee and Maits will rock up at Scotstoun for the rest of the season.

*I mean there are probably at least 20 other clubs he's more likely to move to, including staying at Sarries, but it's fun to speculate.

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Post by RDW on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 2:07 pm

Saracens have released a statement saying this doesn't change anything in terms of the current squad and they're not going to get rid of anyone.

Nice theory though!

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 2:11 pm

RDW wrote:Saracens have released a statement saying this doesn't change anything in terms of the current squad and they're not going to get rid of anyone.

Nice theory though!

Dammit! I showed my working and everything, and they've blown me out the water almost immediately.

Thanks though, I thought it had merit

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Post by RDW on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 2:16 pm

It's alright - despite knowing Hogg was leaving plenty in advance they've obviously decided that Glenn Bryce is an adequate replacement.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 2:33 pm

Ah yes, the exciting choice.

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Post by bsando on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 7:47 pm

Hogg Watch! Rd3 vs Worcester

Hoggy is still finding his feet a bit, two first half Worcester tries came from two poor defensive lapses on his part and the second one was from him going for the intercept rather than the tackle. His second half was much better with a nice kick chase collecting his own high ball. After the 3rd Exeter try he did well to collect a highball and boot it deep and then recuse Nic White's charge down box kick to keep Worcester's last ditch efforts at bay.

His work rate was outstanding throughout the whole match and he kept popping up in the line in attack and hit a fair few rucks too actually. Defensively I think he could be a little bit sharper though and he threw a few speculative passes as well in that first half.

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Post by RDW on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 8:11 pm

On the 2nd try there was bugger all he could do. It was a 2 on 1 so he could either stick to the 2nd last man and hope he messes up the pass or gamble on the intercept.

Fullbacks should never be criticised in that scenario!

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Post by BigGee on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 8:57 pm

I watched the game and Hoggy was pretty solid other than the missed tackle for their first try. He carried a lot of ball and sucked in the Worcester defence and was peppered with high balls, which he dealt with.

Just as impressive though was Duncy, who kicked every conversion and penalty as well as having a very good general game. He is surely only an injury away from the Scotland squad still, I would have him at FH over Pete Horne any day of the week.

CDP was very solid as well and is clearly well over the horrific injury of last season. You can see the tracheostomy scar very clearly though, that must have been a very scary experience.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 05 Nov 2019, 11:42 pm

Meatball was also great defensively. Something never said of Pete-tong Horne.

Duncy was hitting rucks like a 6 for a good spell near the end.
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Post by bsando on Wed 06 Nov 2019, 7:29 am

RDW wrote:On the 2nd try there was bugger all he could do. It was a 2 on 1 so he could either stick to the 2nd last man and hope he messes up the pass or gamble on the intercept.

Fullbacks should never be criticised in that scenario!

I don't think there was bugger all he could do, he could have made the tackle on the winger instead of trying to go for the intercept. The players in attack were very close together and to the sideline so that did give Hogg better odds than a normal 2 on 1 scenario. Totally agree with you that the 2 on 1 scenario is difficult for any FB to judge though and that try was less his fault than the first which was a slipped tackle. I just felt because he was expecting the pass he should have been going for the tackle not the intercept.

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Post by bsando on Wed 06 Nov 2019, 7:31 am

BigGee wrote:I watched the game and Hoggy was pretty solid other than the missed tackle for their first try. He carried a lot of ball and sucked in the Worcester defence and was peppered with high balls, which he dealt with.

Just as impressive though was Duncy, who kicked every conversion and penalty as well as having a very good general game. He is surely only an injury away from the Scotland squad still, I would have him at FH over Pete Horne any day of the week.

CDP was very solid as well and is clearly well over the horrific injury of last season. You can see the tracheostomy scar very clearly though, that must have been a very scary experience.

Yeah Weir had a nice 1 handed pick up as well from a grubber, definitely looks like a player with his tail up at the moment and loving his rugby.

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