QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England



Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia



Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

[No 7&1/2]

It was a different point he made though LT! Albeit one that proved he was talking out of his...

[TightHEAD]

Safe to say the winner of the RWC will come from the NZ/Eng semi final.

[Guest]

But playing 13 in the lead up miaow didn't mean anything as they were warm ups surely?

Not the warm up games. He had 65% tackle percentage in the group games.

Anyway, today's game clearly put to bed the debate around Tuilagi as anything but your ideal 12. Creates space for others, didn't even need him to do the miracle break. Likely will be needed to beat NZ, but you don't need to have him exploited at 13 in defence for that to happen.

I'm bemused why you seem so adamant about this point after the whole JD2 v JJ 'thing' 2 years ago. I was so comprehensively proven correct, I would have thought you'd at least have the humility - or shame - to not be so brash and...well...wrong again on something so similar.

Tbh I'm not going to continue picking you apart. It's mildly entertaining, but mostly dull, because you're a bit weird and would rather troll than actually contribute to the forum. LT has told us to stop, and after saying you would, you clearly won't, so I'm going to stop this now - feel free to reply, but I won't be.

Today was pretty good evidence that Tuilagi, however good he is in either position, is ideally suited to 12 outside Farrell. It'll be interesting if he moves him to 13 and brings Ford back in, but his tackle stats - as well as positional sense, reflexes, reading, and agility - will all get a thorough test against the ABs if he is moved out to 13. Have to wait and see how that goes, if that is what happens, but I'd be shocked if it did for all the reasons I've made.

[Taylorman]

I’ve always seen him as a 12,(inside center) not as rugby smart enough for 13 I don’t think, which needs to manage the wider midfield space more intuitively.

Looks more in the Nonu, Aki, Kerevi mould, also all PI players. With time he probably could have developed into a BOD, ALB, Conrad Smith type but didn’t get it.

He’s instinctive, brash, confident, strong o the carry, all the factors we look for in a 12.

[Rugby Fan]

...I'm bemused why you seem so adamant about this point after the whole JD2 v JJ 'thing' 2 years ago. I was so comprehensively proven correct...

Narrator: He wasn't comprehensively proven correct.

[Guest]

Can't get much more correct than calling it like it was and that player becoming man of the series, in huge part due to his defensive work. At the end of the day, it's opinions about rugby, it's not that serious, but seeing the ire poured on me in the weeks and months leading up to the Lions - if only there were a modicum of contrition to offset it? Don't care, not looking for validation on here, just an improvement in discussion.

Back to the game now?

[yappysnap]

...I'm bemused why you seem so adamant about this point after the whole JD2 v JJ 'thing' 2 years ago. I was so comprehensively proven correct...

Narrator: He wasn't comprehensively proven correct.

[mikey_dragon]

Delusions of grandeur.

[Gooseberry]

not looking for validation on here

[Guest]

Lol. Tbh, if I was hoping for validation on here, I'd be an idiot for trying to do so for so long because there's no way it's coming!

Cheika's post match is weird. I think I'm finally coming round to the fact he's toxic. It feels...how can I say...like the bully in school manipulating the teacher? Something really artificial and...dunno. Creepy almost. Also, more than a bit delusional. I honestly thought Australia had more to their game than they showed today. Seems the 2nd half v Wales, and some rallying v Fiji, was as good as they've got. Didn't so badly today, but can't believe that was 'it' considering this really was the 'all or nothing' game.

Petaia did well though - thought he was lively first half and underused in the 2nd. Looked gutted to be coming off but clearly one for the future, and no idea how JOC started ahead of him in the pools.



EDIT: That said, and I think I made this point before the game, there is truth in what he says. No way Australia would win the WC playing like England or Ireland or anyone else. They should play to their strengths - but you can't just expect 7s style rugby to work. This wasn't quite a French performance by Oz - a better comparison would be Scotland. Just...too many fundamentals all over the place.

[Taylorman]

Actually that’s the first Press conference he’s actually been more tame. He’s clearly descended into a rugby depression that’s been largely caused by his own actions.

he just keeps picking clowns in poor form. Beale has been a defensive liability the last two years but in he goes again. This time thinking it’s ok to throw a lobbed twenty metre pass out with neon lights all over it.

He’s right about the style they need to play because all of Oz rugby success has been built on it, the problem being he doesn’t know how to coach it.

The main thing though is his negativity is divisive. Many wallaby fans hate him there. That’s no good for anyone. They need change,they need positivity, preferably from another Australian as an outsider would just confirm going internal is pointless (as most northern countries appear to have)

[hugehandoff]

Manu at 12 or 13? The smart answer is of course both and that is what i think Eng aspire to. Manu at 12 for some defensive chores and crash ball duties, but he is most effective in the wider channels so needs to be at 13 when the moment arrives.

But my main point is on Aus and Chieka. His selections and preparation have been total nuts!! So many examples of a lack of consistency it is ridiculous. If he was Lancaster/England he would be complete and utter toast. A perfect example of how to minimise your talents.

[mikey_dragon]

Cheika’s refused to play more structured against England, something that kept failing after the Aus tour. It doesn’t work. He admitted that he wasn’t ever going to change the style in an interview so he clearly didn’t care about his job...

[Taylorman]

Well Cheikas just resigned and from what I can see fans are partying up, metaphorically speaking. Big job for someone willing to take it on. Wonder if a Kiwi might drink from the Deans poisoned chalice once more?

[SecretFly]

Eddie Jones going home?

At some point you have to be wanting to take your Nation out of a slump. Mucho money v patriotism.

[LondonTiger]

He’s instinctive, brash, confident, strong o the carry, all the factors we look for in a 12.

Only fairly recently though. Once upon a time NZ fans would have mocked sides that had a crash ball centre.

There is more than a single way to play the game, and individual countries rotate through ideas. It was after all the kiwis who called the 12 a Second Five Eighth, suggesting that they needed similar skills to the 10.

[LondonTiger]

Well Cheikas just resigned and from what I can see fans are partying up, metaphorically speaking. Big job for someone willing to take it on. Wonder if a Kiwi might drink from the Deans poisoned chalice once more?

Dave Rennie has had discussions with ARU throughout the summer.

[formerly known as Sam]

Well Cheikas just resigned and from what I can see fans are partying up, metaphorically speaking. Big job for someone willing to take it on. Wonder if a Kiwi might drink from the Deans poisoned chalice once more?

Dave Rennie has had discussions with ARU throughout the summer.

David Wessels is surely the logical choice. Fixed the awful Force from worst Aussie team to 2nd best (doubling the number of league points inside a season). He orchestrated the Brumbies defence under White. Now at the Rebels he took them from 18th to safe mid table. Knows the Aussie players and should be able to put in some structure.

[kingelderfield]

I get that Tuilagi and Slade complement each other enough to play 12/13 13/12 as the situation requires, however I'm not comfortable with it, especially when we have Joseph talent sitting idle on the bench.
Im a big fan of getting your talent on the pitch and so it does trouble me.
This test with NZ will hopefully be one for the ages, both sides taking each above and beyond.
I would definitely prefer Launchbury on the bench over Cruise and think theres a real debate to be had about our starting props?
Finally for all the real joy with seeing genuine flankers in our squad i believe the decision not to have another real 8 in the squad, ON THE BENCH NOT ON A PLANE, is a mistake. Dont ever forget 3 sevens in Cardiff.

[Geordie]

I wouldnt play Slade again. Hes still too prone to mistakes and against the abs thats lethal.

[BamBam]

I think we'll see the Ford Farrell combo return for the semi. Think we've got two distinct set ups in midfield, against the bigger carrying midfield threats we'll see Farrell at 10, but this feels like a game where Ford is needed for his attacking play and kicking more than a little more solidity in defence.

We need to score around 30 points, the ABs are going to get points regardless

[No 7&1/2]

Tactics will be interesting next week. So easy to play Australia by asking then to run it back and pressure for mistakes. I imagine nz will vary their game far more.

[Soul Requiem]

JJ plays instead of JD2 and the Lions probably win the series, an opinion based on one single despite JJ being a superb defender.

[Recwatcher16]

The England defence relies on the 13 being the corner of the defence with the wingers hanging back. JJ is far better at it than Slade and England will need it against the ABs. I would also be tempted to bring back Kruis as a starter for the next game but the rest of the 23 picks itself now.

[formerly known as Sam]

I get that Tuilagi and Slade complement each other enough to play 12/13 13/12 as the situation requires, however I'm not comfortable with it, especially when we have Joseph talent sitting idle on the bench.
Im a big fan of getting your talent on the pitch and so it does trouble me.
This test with NZ will hopefully be one for the ages, both sides taking each above and beyond.
I would definitely prefer Launchbury on the bench over Cruise and think theres a real debate to be had about our starting props?
Finally for all the real joy with seeing genuine flankers in our squad i believe the decision not to have another real 8 in the squad, ON THE BENCH NOT ON A PLANE, is a mistake. Dont ever forget 3 sevens in Cardiff.

Joseph is lucky to be there let alone be on the bench. Too many injuries and not reliable enough in defence.

Kruis may well start the next match to give us more set piece skill. It's why Launchbury doesn't make the 23 he's not as good as Kruis nor Lawes in that department. If Itoje was out we might bring in Launchbury.

I feel sorry for Wilson as he's the other 8 option and is great on the flank as well but the three opensides have Been so good even as a unit that you can't leave them out. Especially when against NZ the breakdown will be a war.

Props might be worth changing. Start with Marler and Sinckler and then bring on Mako and Cole. Would keep one ball carrying playmaker style prop alongside a more set piece style prop.

[Collapse2005]

Did anyone hear the audio of cheikas half time talk. Pretty funny

[SecretFly]

Just heard about it in the Irish commentary.  Must go find it

[No 7&1/2]

What did he say?

[RiscaGame]

If it’s the clip I have just heard, it’s brilliant.

[LondonTiger]

If it’s the clip I have just heard, it’s brilliant.

Link?

[RiscaGame]

It’s as an audio clip for me on WhatsApp.

[RiscaGame]

I’m not sure how legitimate it is, because at the start the guy says 10/22 (not 23) are the dumbest c**ts he has ever coached.

[BamBam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uszk3ByKIkQ

Quality not great

[kingelderfield]

No, very funny but not real.

[SecretFly]

Bloody good rant from whenever it was.  Did the boys actually go on and win the actual game where this was recorded?  Because if the didn't, they certainly didn't go back in there on the final whistle - just hopped over the wall and drove away in a bloody car.

[stub]

Haha, very funny indeed - a proper telling off!

[SecretFly]

Couldn't get all of it though. If someone ever comes across a transcript, throw a link my way please. It sounds Shakespearian in poetic terms. Needs to be recorded in print.

[stub]

A transcript would be hilarious!

[Guest]

JJ plays instead of JD2 and the Lions probably win the series, an opinion based on one single despite JJ being a superb defender.

Lol. I'd use the 'and then you turn the Playstation off' but they don't make rugby games anymore...do they?

[Soul Requiem]

JJ plays instead of JD2 and the Lions probably win the series, an opinion based on one single despite JJ being a superb defender.

Lol. I'd use the 'and then you turn the Playstation off' but they don't make rugby games anymore...do they?

I'm still waiting for England to tire late on

[Guest]

Haa - you've only played one decent team so far and they decided to be less than decent in the top two inches! Probably not going to happen now given the week off, but if it's going to happen, it'll be v NZ. Strong start almost essential for England - even if it means keeping the scorelines close rather than building a 3 score lead.

Don't worry, plenty of rugby to play after the RWC as well if you want to see this happen. Not really that contentious...

[No 7&1/2]

Wonder if hooper gets cited today. The only mitigation was the second tackler but still lifted beyond the horizontal. Worse than mtawarira yesterday.

[lostinwales]

Has there been a more joyful sight in this RWC than the grin on Kyle Sinckler's face as he ran in for his try?

[Gooseberry]

Has there been a more joyful sight in this RWC than the grin on Kyle Sinckler's face as he ran in for his try?

Reminded me of that interview where he talked about being a dinosaur. He still has that air of a child about him who just enjoys being allowed to run around and shout a lot.

[Afro]

Sinckler also looks like he has got a control of his temper too (fingers crossed). There were a few times where they were clearly trying to wind him up and he didn't look close to reacting.

What a pass by Farrell btw, flat straight in the bread basket, so Sinckler just had to run it in from 22 30 50 metres

[Soul Requiem]

Itoje is the most important part of that, every time it looks like Sinckler might get agitated by anything he's straight there and just turns him round, shows the importance of having a tight knit group.

[quinsforever]

good win that.

still dont think we have seen all our tricks.

what the 2003 team had in spades was attacking threats from set piece and in the forwards, and out wide with greenwood, cohen, robinson and lewsey.

may, watson (and possibly nowell, but not daly) are attacking threats outside, and manu, mako, billy, sinckler are attacking threats inside.

not saying we will win, but having all these options is a great place to launch from if you do all the basics solidly and dont give away too many needless penalties.

[Pie]

Safe to say the winner of the RWC will come from the NZ/Eng semi final.

Safe to say if thats the case it will be NZ

[Heaf]

Itoje is the most important part of that, every time it looks like Sinckler might get agitated by anything he's straight there and just turns him round, shows the importance of having a tight knit group.

Indeed, you could see Itoje pulling him away by the back of his shirt just in case ...

[No 7&1/2]

It's the reason I'm pretty confident. The pack. They seem all in it together. Theress been no grumbles in the press. The guys on social media outside of the immediate side seem to be pulling in the same direction e.g. Genge who could easily have been annoyed at how well he was playing to be dropped. When sides have looked for the reaction as said the likes of itoje has been there. When sides have left the late hits or got annoyed that their scrums have been shunted about they've stood shoulder to shoulder. Very different sense of being a team than we've seen in prior world.cups.

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