2020 And Beyond: Andy Farrell's Ireland

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Post by profitius on Tue 15 Oct 2019, 12:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

I've started this thread to appease the mocker gods.


It's almost the end of an era as Schmidt's time is coming to an end. Farrell is the new coach and will bring in his own way of doing things. Mike Catt is the new attack coach and John Fogarty takes over from Greg Feel.


There'll be changes in squad selections too with players possibly being involved with the squad for the last time in this world cup. Ireland don't do world cup cycles like other teams so for instance the 32 year old Healy won't be gotten rid of even though he's unlikely to make the next world cup.


There's a new generation of players emerging now so who do you think will make the squad in 2020 and the proceeding years?


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Post by Guest on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:30 pm

"Happy to be in the same boat as Schmidt, Henry and co. "


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Post by Cyril on Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:43 pm

Miaow, you and your constant trolling and childish memes must be on your thousandth final warning by now. The mods must have been asleep these last few months. Will it ever stop?

Every thread you are in turns to shoite. Just stop.

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Post by Guest on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 6:16 am

No thank you, Cyril. You stop your 'policing'. That would be a start.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 11 Dec 2019, 2:06 pm

rodders wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:My own view is that Schmidt is a great technical coach but tends to get bogged down in the minutiae. He tends to not see the big picture. So while players were off form and moral was low, he was bombarding the team with more tactics and detail.


Sexton is out for 8-10 weeks so will miss most of the 6N or all of it.


Ronan Kelleher has suffered a fractured hand which means he will be in a race against time to make the 6N squad though you'd expect a place to be kept open for him.

Disagree that Schmidt doesn't see the big picture - which for Ireland is that they don't have enough quality players to win a RWC.

During his tenure Joe has increased the player pool by capping un-hyped and inexperienced players. He dished out improvement programmes to improve quality and took a far more hands-on interest in the provinces (and beyond) to keep tabs on potential talent and encourage certain types of play. Schmidt's staid tactics increased the pool of players that could execute them precisely because they were limited in ambition. Arguably Joe Schmidt has seen more of the big picture than any of his predecessors

The big picture remains, there are not enough Irish players to fill 31 RWC slots without a tournament defining drop-off in quality.

I agree but come to a slightly different conclusion, I think Ireland does have 30-40 players good enough to challenge for the RWC.

BUT that is dependent on having a near clean bill of health, especially in some key positions and also players being in good form like they were for most of 2018.

The problem Ireland still have is that when a few players drop off we just don't have the options to make wholesale changes the way the likes of NZ, England or SA can, if things aren't going well.

Schmidt backed his players to turn things around and find form but it just didn't happen in time.

I've no doubt we'll see some good periods of success for Ireland in the near future but with such a small pool it is very difficult to sustain that for a long period as you need new players constantly pushing their way in and raising the bar.

I agree there are maybe 30 to 40 but that means that all of them would have to be fit and secondly on form to mount a realistic challenge. Joe couldn't take Addison or Leavy and was forced to take players like Carbery, Henshaw, Kearney, Sexton and Murray who were either injured or carrying injury doubts. On top of that he had maybe another five who were out of form in his initial squad. They had four gruelling enough games before the quarters with too many minutes already accrued on the clock for some players. Ireland need at least double the 30 to 40 players to be able to push the standards higher and not be forced into taking injured players who have had no gametime and a remote hope they come good.

Ireland had a good performance against Scotland with a better than expected win but cruciall sustained a couple more injuries.
They should have been able to make far more changes against Japan to account for the conditions but couldn't risk it because the drop off was too much. As it was it was the better on-form players who were kept that suffered most from the intensity and they faded badly in the second half, but they still only lost by a score.
The Japan loss restricted rotation against Russia and Samoa as they became critical games and by the time Ireland faced NZ they were cream crackered.

I'm as disappointed as the next man they didn't win the Cup but realistically they are a long way off until they get a bigger pool to select from.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 6:46 am

profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
profitius wrote:My own view is that Schmidt is a great technical coach but tends to get bogged down in the minutiae. He tends to not see the big picture. So while players were off form and moral was low, he was bombarding the team with more tactics and detail.


Sexton is out for 8-10 weeks so will miss most of the 6N or all of it.


Ronan Kelleher has suffered a fractured hand which means he will be in a race against time to make the 6N squad though you'd expect a place to be kept open for him.

Disagree that Schmidt doesn't see the big picture - which for Ireland is that they don't have enough quality players to win a RWC.

During his tenure Joe has increased the player pool by capping un-hyped and inexperienced players. He dished out improvement programmes to improve quality and took a far more hands-on interest in the provinces (and beyond) to keep tabs on potential talent and encourage certain types of play. Schmidt's staid tactics increased the pool of players that could execute them precisely because they were limited in ambition. Arguably Joe Schmidt has seen more of the big picture than any of his predecessors

The big picture remains, there are not enough Irish players to fill 31 RWC slots without a tournament defining drop-off in quality.


I'm not criticising him for not winning the world cup. All I wanted to see was the team performing to near or 95% of their potential. What we got was about 70%. If we played well against NZ but lost I don't think there would be too many complaints.


I'm not sure he developed the squad as some say. He capped a load of players but always went back to his core team. In that regard he was a bit like Eddie O'Sullivan.
Can't agree that Joe is anything like Eddie - other than they share 'S' as a last initial. Eddie was so core team he brought Corrigan out of retirement rather than try a new man, and played Trimble with a broken finger than select a got replacement. Every Ireland coach has had to rely on core players because there simply aren't the replacements out there.

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Post by rodders on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 9:42 am

I think the circumstances when Eddie was in charge was very different. Eddie didn't have the depth Joe had but arguably had better individual players.

Bests recent comments about Joe have been taken a bit out of context I think, a lot of people are jumping on the knock Joe band wagon and armchair critics are out in force rewriting history.

Joe was/is a phenomenal coach who had incredible success with a fairly limited group of players by the standards of some other top teams.

Furthermore he did it off the back of the retirement of probably Ireland 2 greatest ever players and captains - BOD and POC not to mention losing top class players like Heaslip, Bowe, D'arcy, O'Brien etc. along the way.

People forget we had a patchy period after winning back to back 6N titles in 2014/15, starting with the Argentina loss in the RWC QF. Unfortunately we've hit a bit of a dip again which has been blown out of proportion because of the timing but when you have such a small pool of players it is almost impossible to be consistent year in year out.
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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 1:58 pm

Agree with most of that Rodders, but not sure about the patchy period after the Pumas loss. That game was a disappointment and showed Schmidt that he needed better depth to cover injuries.

However finishing third in the 2016 6N was a par performance considering the retirements/injuries, and winning a test in SA on the summer tour was a new milestone (never mind the Stander red card that tipped the series). A first ever win over the ABs in Chicago was not indicative of a slump in form either, but rather the opposite. For me Ireland had a disappointing but completely predictable RWC 15. Ireland consistently punch above their weight in the 6N and summer and autumn game but the intensity of the World Cup over such a short space of time stretches their resources too far.

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Post by rodders on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 4:35 pm

Yes sure I guess by patchy I mean we had 2 disappointing 6N in 2016 and 2017.

The ABs win I think in 2016 maybe makes that period look more positive, in truth we were 3rd in the 6N and comprehensively beat in Dublin by the ABs in the return.

2017 wasn't a great year in terms of another average 6N. We didn't have great representation on the Lions tour but some players did well individually.

I think beating Eddie Jones England side in Dublin was a bit of a turning point confidence wise, plus not having too many players on the Lions, then an unbeaten Autumn led to a GS and run of success.

I guess the point is whilst 2019 has been poor by the standards of 2018 and the worst under Schmidt, compared to the previous 2 seasons before that it isn't that far off results wise.
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Post by rodders on Thu 12 Dec 2019, 4:41 pm

...ok I'm calling it, 2020 will be a good year ...Smile
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Post by profitius on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 11:17 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Agree with most of that Rodders, but not sure about the patchy period after the Pumas loss. That game was a disappointment and showed Schmidt that he needed better depth to cover injuries.

However finishing third in the 2016 6N was a par performance considering the retirements/injuries, and winning a test in SA on the summer tour was a new milestone (never mind the Stander red card that tipped the series). A first ever win over the ABs in Chicago was not indicative of a slump in form either, but rather the opposite. For me Ireland had a disappointing but completely predictable RWC 15. Ireland consistently punch above their weight in the 6N and summer and autumn game but the intensity of the World Cup over such a short space of time stretches their resources too far.


What about Wales and Argentina getting to semi finals. What about finishing runner up to Japan? We have more resources than those 3 teams.


I'm afraid Schmidt has to take most of the responsibility. I usually wouldn't be so quick to knock a coach but he likes to control everything and it backfired.
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Post by rodders on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 2:54 pm

profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Agree with most of that Rodders, but not sure about the patchy period after the Pumas loss. That game was a disappointment and showed Schmidt that he needed better depth to cover injuries.

However finishing third in the 2016 6N was a par performance considering the retirements/injuries, and winning a test in SA on the summer tour was a new milestone (never mind the Stander red card that tipped the series). A first ever win over the ABs in Chicago was not indicative of a slump in form either, but rather the opposite. For me Ireland had a disappointing but completely predictable RWC 15. Ireland consistently punch above their weight in the 6N and summer and autumn game but the intensity of the World Cup over such a short space of time stretches their resources too far.


What about Wales and Argentina getting to semi finals. What about finishing runner up to Japan? We have more resources than those 3 teams.


I'm afraid Schmidt has to take most of the responsibility. I usually wouldn't be so quick to knock a coach but he likes to control everything and it backfired.

What about France or Australia? They didn't get past the QF either, nor did Japan. Argentina didn't even get out of their pool. England didn't get out of their pool last time with much more resource than us.

The reality is only 4 sides can get to the semi final in a given tournament, and in 2019 we haven't looked like one of the top 4 in the world, so a QF was reflective of how we were performing generally this year.

Of the 4 sides did better than us, Wales and England both out performed us in the 6N, NZ are/were the worlds best team and favorites and SA were the eventual winners.

The performances were inconsistent and frustrating to watch at times but the result (a QF loss) itself wasn't a complete anomaly against the rest of the season.

The performances against Scotland and Samoa in fact were our best of 2019, so it's not like we came in off the back of a great 6N and capitulated.



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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 4:12 pm

rodders wrote:...ok I'm calling it, 2020 will be a good year ...Smile  

I dont see why not. I reckon we will also beat the world champions in 2020 too.

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Post by profitius on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 2:25 pm

rodders wrote:
profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Agree with most of that Rodders, but not sure about the patchy period after the Pumas loss. That game was a disappointment and showed Schmidt that he needed better depth to cover injuries.

However finishing third in the 2016 6N was a par performance considering the retirements/injuries, and winning a test in SA on the summer tour was a new milestone (never mind the Stander red card that tipped the series). A first ever win over the ABs in Chicago was not indicative of a slump in form either, but rather the opposite. For me Ireland had a disappointing but completely predictable RWC 15. Ireland consistently punch above their weight in the 6N and summer and autumn game but the intensity of the World Cup over such a short space of time stretches their resources too far.


What about Wales and Argentina getting to semi finals. What about finishing runner up to Japan? We have more resources than those 3 teams.


I'm afraid Schmidt has to take most of the responsibility. I usually wouldn't be so quick to knock a coach but he likes to control everything and it backfired.

What about France or Australia? They didn't get past the QF either, nor did Japan. Argentina didn't even get out of their pool.  England didn't get out of their pool last time with much more resource than us.  

The reality is only 4 sides can get to the semi final in a given tournament, and in 2019 we haven't looked like one of the top 4 in the world, so a QF was reflective of how we were performing generally this year.

Of the 4 sides did better than us, Wales and England both out performed us in the 6N, NZ are/were the worlds best team and favorites and SA were the eventual winners.

The performances were inconsistent and frustrating to watch at times but the result (a QF loss) itself wasn't a complete anomaly against the rest of the season.

The performances against Scotland and Samoa in fact were our best of 2019, so it's not like we came in off the back of a great 6N and capitulated.  


The point I was making was about resources. Wales and Argentina have gotten to semi finals twice each in the last 3 or 4 tournaments. They don't have more resources.
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Post by profitius on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 10:14 am

Interesting to see Stockdale and Larmour at fullback. Both look solid under the high ball and both good in attack. I think Stockdale linked better with his backs while Larmour beat about 8 defenders in one attack which was highlighted but he missed chances to pass. That's something he still has to work on although he's not doing it as much this season.


Think McCloskey will make the squad? I'd have him well ahead of Henshaw at the moment.


Doris hard another good game for Leinster. Looks quality for a 21 year old. He looks to be clearly ahead of Deegan there.


Plenty of competition at 10. Ross Byrne is the media favourite. Burns playing just as well imo although he doesn't take Ulster's kicks. Carty dropped for Fitzgerald in Connacht. Fitzgerald looks another with potential as does Frawley.


Kelleher is out injured which is bad timing. Herring is probably the form hooker at the minute. Kevin O'Byrne has been Munsters best hooker this season by far but don't think he'll make the squad.


Is James Lowe qualified now?
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Post by westisbest on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 1:28 pm

Good competition for 9&10 positions.

Murray, McGrath, Cooney, Marmion.

Sexton, Byrne, carbery, Carty.

Not a bad selection.

Need a pacey winger to replace earls. Someone of the Jordon Conroy mould.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 3:23 pm

Aaron Sexton from Ulster. Give it a couple of years and I hope he will be tearing it up on the wing.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 6:40 pm

profitius wrote:

Doris hard another good game for Leinster. Looks quality for a 21 year old. He looks to be clearly ahead of Deegan there.



Every time I hear those two mentioned it's usually in the same sentence and I always feel I'm opening a chapter of a Lewis Carroll novel.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:21 am

profitius wrote:
rodders wrote:
profitius wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Agree with most of that Rodders, but not sure about the patchy period after the Pumas loss. That game was a disappointment and showed Schmidt that he needed better depth to cover injuries.

However finishing third in the 2016 6N was a par performance considering the retirements/injuries, and winning a test in SA on the summer tour was a new milestone (never mind the Stander red card that tipped the series). A first ever win over the ABs in Chicago was not indicative of a slump in form either, but rather the opposite. For me Ireland had a disappointing but completely predictable RWC 15. Ireland consistently punch above their weight in the 6N and summer and autumn game but the intensity of the World Cup over such a short space of time stretches their resources too far.


What about Wales and Argentina getting to semi finals. What about finishing runner up to Japan? We have more resources than those 3 teams.


I'm afraid Schmidt has to take most of the responsibility. I usually wouldn't be so quick to knock a coach but he likes to control everything and it backfired.

What about France or Australia? They didn't get past the QF either, nor did Japan. Argentina didn't even get out of their pool.  England didn't get out of their pool last time with much more resource than us.  

The reality is only 4 sides can get to the semi final in a given tournament, and in 2019 we haven't looked like one of the top 4 in the world, so a QF was reflective of how we were performing generally this year.

Of the 4 sides did better than us, Wales and England both out performed us in the 6N, NZ are/were the worlds best team and favorites and SA were the eventual winners.

The performances were inconsistent and frustrating to watch at times but the result (a QF loss) itself wasn't a complete anomaly against the rest of the season.

The performances against Scotland and Samoa in fact were our best of 2019, so it's not like we came in off the back of a great 6N and capitulated.  


The point I was making was about resources. Wales and Argentina have gotten to semi finals twice each in the last 3 or 4 tournaments. They don't have more resources.
Neither do they have the resources to go the whole way and win the thing. If any of these teams get a favourable draw and are lucky with injuries and don't pick up cards then they stand a chance of progress, but the law of probability over so many games eventually catches up.
Undoubtedly Ireland should have made it past the quarters before now, but this year was never going to be their best chance with a fifth game against either SA or NZ.
Maybe if Ireland had swapped pools with Wales they might have had a better chance of a SF this year?

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:58 am

I'm coming around to Taylorman's philosophy.  Maybe if the fallout hadn't been so comically (or tragically) vocal - from ex players, from players who were part of the campaign, from overly strung journalists and from ourselves in the social media sphere, I mightn't have been moved to shift position.  But the reaction to our collapse in the QF was way OTT..... and yes, the 'goal' of reaching a semi final has become a bit of an embarrassment considering those reactions.
It's funny in a way.  Schmidt gets blamed for a little too much leaning on the micro management principles, to the point that some accuse it of being a dangerous and counter productive obsession in a coach who otherwise has many fine coaching attributes.  And yet, that anoraky, micro analysis has been just what observers have been engaged in themselves since the defeat to New Zealand; "maybe the alarm bells in the morning were on the wrong tone"' "maybe the toast should only have been done on one side", "maybe the Leader group chose the wrong day to have a chat with Joe".

Maybe the team and management should stop fixating on the mini prizes below the grand prize itself? No inquisitions, no autobiographies about how close we were to a semi final had certain folks only done things a little different.  Just focus on the main prize, like all the other top sides do - and say so in interviews; "we're here to win a WC.  Only one side will but for now, that's our only objective.  We're not going to discuss any of the other games before the final as anything other than steps to that final."

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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 11:12 am

It's OK to have a goal of winning the Olympic 100m gold, but if you're a 20 stone octogenarian with a heart condition it wouldn't be realistic. Until Ireland/Wales/Argentina/Japan/Scotland/Fiji/Italy build more quality depth they won't win the RWC. Their goal should be to build depth and use the RWC as a barometer of how that is working. Today simply saying Ireland have a goal of winning the RWC or makng the SF or Final means nothing - how does that change behaviour in the next four years?

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Post by rodders on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 1:40 pm

Back to the present, some very promising individual displays, although not convinced the English teams are trying too hard.

If I was picking a 15 on form right now would be -

15 Larmour
14 Lowe
13 Ringrose
12 McCloskey
11 Stockdale
10 Byrne
9 Cooney
8 Doris
6 Stander
7 VDF
5 Henderson
4 Ryan (C)
3 Furlong
2 Scannell
1 Kilcoyne

Bench: Healy, Herring, Porter,  Kleyn, POM, Gibson- Park, Burns, Conway
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 1:51 pm

Cooney seems to be on fire right now.

Doris?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 2:00 pm

Leinster 8 Caelin Doris. Good player.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 2:07 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Leinster 8 Caelin Doris. Good player.

OK, thanks. Not actually seen Leinster play so far so sadly he has passed me by.

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Post by rodders on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 2:14 pm

Really impressed by Doris over the last few games, looks a much better option than Conan, who's a better athlete than a player in my opinion.

No 8 is a position we are not that strong in since Heaslip retired, so Doris getting a run in the ERC is good news for Farrell.
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Post by rodders on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 2:15 pm

Talk of Sexton going to France again, any thoughts?
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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 2:23 pm

rodders wrote:Talk of Sexton going to France again, any thoughts?

Now is a good time at age 34. Seems to get broke a lot so it might be a good thing for him and Ireland to move on. You could try and bring back Madigan too?

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Post by rodders on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 3:24 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
rodders wrote:Talk of Sexton going to France again, any thoughts?

Now is a good time at age 34. Seems to get broke a lot so it might be a good thing for him and Ireland to move on. You could try and bring back Madigan too?

I think he is coming to the end myself. I know he was written off a few seasons ago and came back to play some of his best rugby in the last few seasons but he is getting a lot of injuries now and playing very little.

The way he plays, close to line, aggressive and confrontational, isn't suited for longevity.  If you look at Jonny Wilkinson later in his career he played deep in the pocket behind a dominate pack at Toulon and had really good success.

Maybe Sexton can squeeze out a couple of seasons doing the same but I'm not sure that suits his strengths.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 3:33 pm

Perhaps not, but he is good at kicking from hand and at goal too. If France is his destination then a forward-orientated team would probably ensure a few more playing years for him. Montpellier, Toulon and Racing spring to mind. Racing 92 were his old team right?

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:27 pm

Ireland training squad announced by Andy Farrell:

Connacht:
Bundee Aki, Caolin Blade, Ultan Dillane, Dave Heffernan, Quinn Roux.

Leinster:
Ross Byrne, Will Connors, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Tadhg Furlong, Jamison Gibson Park, Cian Healy, Robbie Henshaw, Dave Kearney, Ronan Kelleher, Jordan Larmour, Luke McGrath, Andrew Porter, Garry Ringrose, Rhys Ruddock, James Ryan, Jonathan Sexton, Devin Toner, Josh van der Flier.

Munster:
Joey Carbery, Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Chris Farrell, Mike Haley, Dave Kilcoyne, Jean Kleyn, Conor Murray, Peter O’Mahony, Niall Scannell, Rory Scannell, CJ Stander.

Ulster:
Will Addison, Billy Burns, John Cooney, Iain Henderson, Rob Herring, Stuart McCloskey, Marty Moore, Tom O’Toole, Jacob Stockdale.


No Rob Kearney, Jordi Murphy, John Ryan, Finlay Bealham, Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Jack Carty or Kieran Marmion.
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:34 pm

Does Dave Kearney deserve to be in there?

interesting to see Billy Burns included.

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Does Dave Kearney deserve to be in there?

interesting to see Billy Burns included.

Kearney has got a new lease of life this season, playing and scoring.

Farrell has a fair few options to run though over the next 12 months Burns looks like he’s got hold of the reins this season and partnering him with Cooney might be considered. What’s interesting is that JJ Hanrahan has not made the selection.
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:43 pm

I guess he decided that once Carberry is fit, JJ goes back to the bench?

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I guess he decided that once Carberry is fit, JJ goes back to the bench?

Yep. Presume so. Haley makes it through as well at Munster. Some good options coming through for 15 with Larmour, Addison and himself. Stockdale might also be considered.
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Post by profitius on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 5:11 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Ireland training squad announced by Andy Farrell:

Connacht:
Bundee Aki, Caolin Blade, Ultan Dillane, Dave Heffernan, Quinn Roux.

Leinster:
Ross Byrne, Will Connors, Max Deegan, Caelan Doris, Tadhg Furlong, Jamison Gibson Park, Cian Healy, Robbie Henshaw, Dave Kearney, Ronan Kelleher, Jordan Larmour, Luke McGrath, Andrew Porter, Garry Ringrose, Rhys Ruddock, James Ryan, Jonathan Sexton, Devin Toner, Josh van der Flier.

Munster:
Joey Carbery, Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Chris Farrell, Mike Haley, Dave Kilcoyne, Jean Kleyn, Conor Murray, Peter O’Mahony, Niall Scannell, Rory Scannell, CJ Stander.

Ulster:
Will Addison, Billy Burns, John Cooney, Iain Henderson, Rob Herring, Stuart McCloskey, Marty Moore, Tom O’Toole, Jacob Stockdale.


No Rob Kearney, Jordi Murphy, John Ryan, Finlay Bealham, Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Jack Carty or Kieran Marmion.


Uncapped players are highlighted. Can't argue too much with the squad.
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Post by profitius on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 5:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I guess he decided that once Carberry is fit, JJ goes back to the bench?


JJ is still an erratic kicker. I think missing some kicks in European games sealed his faith. Burns meanwhile is playing very well for Ulster.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 5:26 pm

Hopefully Cooney starts in the six nations.

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Post by profitius on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 8:54 pm

Schmidt first squad (2013). Only 8 of the 34 remain.
IRELAND Guinness Series Squad:

Backs

Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster)
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D’Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)*
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Luke Marshall (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92)


Forwards

Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
James Coughlan (Dolphin/Munster)*
Tom Court (Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
Sean O’Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Paul O’Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 9:30 am

To be fair at least 17 are not available for various reasons (retired, playing overseas etc). May be more as some names I am not sure on.

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Post by rodders on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 10:30 am

Dave K is playing well and holding a the 14 spot at Leinster so no complaints about him.

Rob K seams to be the big story but given his IRFU contract wasn't renewed it was clear they didn't see him as key after the RWC. I thought he played well in Japan but his consistency and durability is not what it was so looking at other options at 15 makes sense. Larmour looks to be in the driving seat, with Stockdale and Haley options as well. If Addison is fit he may jump to top of the list.

Jordi Murphy can feel a bit hard done by, you could presume from his omission Farrell and Easterby don't rate him as highly as Schmidt and are looking at younger options.

Luke Marshall is unlucky as well but given how competitive the midfield is he probably needs a few injuries to get a recall.

I thought Farrell might like Burns, his weak defense excepted, he has really stepped up a level this season. He's mixing up his game a bit more and looks a running threat now as well. He may well be seen as the man to replace Sexton.
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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 2:36 pm

rodders wrote:Dave K is playing well and holding a the 14 spot at Leinster so no complaints about him.

Rob K seams to be the big story but given his IRFU contract wasn't renewed it was clear they didn't see him as key after the RWC. I thought he played well in Japan but his consistency and durability is not what it was so looking at other options at 15 makes sense. Larmour looks to be in the driving seat, with Stockdale and Haley options as well. If Addison is fit he may jump to top of the list.

Jordi Murphy can feel a bit hard done by, you could presume from his omission Farrell and Easterby don't rate him as highly as Schmidt and are looking at younger options.

Luke Marshall is unlucky as well but given how competitive the midfield is he probably needs a few injuries to get a recall.

I thought Farrell might like Burns, his weak defense excepted, he has really stepped up a level this season. He's mixing up his game a bit more and looks a running threat now as well. He may well be seen as the man to replace Sexton.

Rob Kearney got a one-year renewal on his IRFU central contract after RWC.
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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 2:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:To be fair at least 17 are not available for various reasons (retired, playing overseas etc). May be more as some names I am not sure on.


Yep

Current 10
Earls, Henshaw, R Kearney, D Kearney, Murray, Sexton, Cronin, Healy, O'Mahony, Toner

Abroad 2
Jackson, Madigan, (Zebo & Ryan too)

No Longer selected 4
Archer, L Marshall, McFadden, Jack McGrath

Retired 18
Boss, Bowe, Darcy, O'Driscoll, Reddan, Best, Coughlan, Court, Fitzpatrick, Heaslip, Henry, McCarthy, McLaughlin, O'Brien, O'Connell, Ross, Sherry, Tuohy
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Post by rodders on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 4:13 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
rodders wrote:Dave K is playing well and holding a the 14 spot at Leinster so no complaints about him.

Rob K seams to be the big story but given his IRFU contract wasn't renewed it was clear they didn't see him as key after the RWC. I thought he played well in Japan but his consistency and durability is not what it was so looking at other options at 15 makes sense. Larmour looks to be in the driving seat, with Stockdale and Haley options as well. If Addison is fit he may jump to top of the list.

Jordi Murphy can feel a bit hard done by, you could presume from his omission Farrell and Easterby don't rate him as highly as Schmidt and are looking at younger options.

Luke Marshall is unlucky as well but given how competitive the midfield is he probably needs a few injuries to get a recall.

I thought Farrell might like Burns, his weak defense excepted, he has really stepped up a level this season. He's mixing up his game a bit more and looks a running threat now as well. He may well be seen as the man to replace Sexton.

Rob Kearney got a one-year renewal on his IRFU central contract after RWC.

I thought it was a Leinster one? Even so he had trouble getting that so not surprised he's not seen as a key man any longer.
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Post by Brendan on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 4:34 pm

The good thing about the squad is it seems alot more on form than fame.

Blade has been much better than Marmion and Carry still settling back in.

Think our squad can match England as a whole. One of the problems with the WC squad was the players were poor for 6 months before but never lost their places. England dumped players like Brown and others and called up better performing players in their place. It not surprising we struggled so much. Hopefully Farrel will not give players a years grace to find form.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 9:50 pm

Has Sean O'Brien retired? Well that is news to me if true. I must be very ill informed lately

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Post by profitius on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 8:56 am

https://www.the42.ie/andy-farrell-ireland-attack-4946394-Dec2019/

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Post by rodders on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 9:42 am

SecretFly wrote:Has Sean O'Brien retired?  Well that is news to me if true.  I must be very ill informed lately

He's at LI and injured, no?

Farrell sounding very upbeat and chirpy.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 9:58 am

Quite timely.  I just came on to give my last word on this thread before the new year.  And there is Rodders, kinda alluding to it in just six words: "Farrell sounding very upbeat and chirpy".

I came on to just say it seems to me - from the scant evidence provided by a quite taciturn Farrell so far - that he means to up Ireland's tempo for a start at least.  And perhaps - perhaps - he means to do so through a change of style through 9.

It'll need more than that obviously to make a more incisive, pacy, attacking Ireland a more familiar animal but I believe that's the primary channel to begin the revolution.  

Anyway, we'll see what transpires.  But here's to a more upbeat and chirpy Ireland in the new year OK

Merry Christmas boys!

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 4:32 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/andy-farrells-first-media-engagement-as-ireland-boss-wasnt-all-plain-sailing-as-irfu-excluded-certain-media

Just one person throwing their toys out of the problem, or a genuine ongoing "issue"?

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Post by profitius on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 7:20 pm

Yeah Farrell sounding fairly upbeat and I think he will do a good job. I think he will be better in some areas than Schmidt was.


Some interesting insights into his thinking in that article. One i like is announcing the team on Tuesdays.


Happy holidays
Merry Christmas to all!
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