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2020 And Beyond: Andy Farrell's Ireland

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Post by profitius on Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

I've started this thread to appease the mocker gods.


It's almost the end of an era as Schmidt's time is coming to an end. Farrell is the new coach and will bring in his own way of doing things. Mike Catt is the new attack coach and John Fogarty takes over from Greg Feel.


There'll be changes in squad selections too with players possibly being involved with the squad for the last time in this world cup. Ireland don't do world cup cycles like other teams so for instance the 32 year old Healy won't be gotten rid of even though he's unlikely to make the next world cup.


There's a new generation of players emerging now so who do you think will make the squad in 2020 and the proceeding years?


Last edited by profitius on Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:53 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here.

I have to say I am staggered by the appointment of Sexton as Captain. I understand that he's an experienced playmaker, but he strikes me as a bit hot-headed and can let his attention wander a bit in games. Plus he's probably held together with gaffer tape, staples and sealant and there's no certainty that he'll be fit. Even if he is back for the Scotland match, I can see the likes of Bradbury and Richie targeting him. Just seems an odd fit to me. O'Mahoney would have been a better pick in my eyes, but hey, Andy Farrell knows them far better than me!!

Nice to see some new young blood in there pushing for places though. Good luck!!

Were you suprised when Dylan Hartley and Owen Farrell captained England in the past? Dont necessarly mean this as a sneer.

No offence taken Collapse - I was actually surprised at both Hartley and Farrell. But this is why I am not a rugby selector. I think for me with Sexton it's his injury record. He's not fully fit right now, and I for one would not even think of giving the armband to someone who is not 100% - it's just doesn't sit right with me. Sexton strikes me as being a bit like Evander Holyfield - he doesn't believe in Father Time.... Very Happy

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Post by rodders on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:23 am

Sextons the logical pick. The signs were there when Farrell said they met to discuss Sexton taking a different role, and making the side less dependent on him. They'll give Ryan a season or 2 then he will lead into the RWC.

The squad is a mix of youth and experience but not sure they have the balance right. To select 3 hookers who didn't make the RWC squad is a big risk in my opinion. Obviously they are looking at the dynamism and tempo but if the set piece doesn't function we will struggle.

Backrow again I'd have gone for Ruddock ahead of Deegan or O'Donahue - 3 inexperienced back rowers seems a bit much to me.

Balcoune must be close to the full squad.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:10 pm

Well if I had to pick the team I'd go:

Healy, Herring, Furlong, Toner, Ryan, Stander, VDF, Doris - Murray, Sexton, Stockdale, McCloskey, Ringrose, Kearney, Larmour.
Heffernan, Kilcoyne, Porter, Henderson, O'Donoghue, Cooney, Byrne, Earls.

Squad should have included Cronin, the other Byrne (hooker), Beirne, Ruddock. Not sure what's happened to Kleyn, but given Ireland are well stocked at lock it had cap and run written all over it. I wasn't sure he was an international quality player at the time either.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:50 pm

rodders wrote:Sextons the logical pick. The signs were there when Farrell said they met to discuss Sexton taking a different role, and making the side less dependent on him.   

Sorry maybe a reading comprehension issue here....they are making the side less dependant on him by making him Captain?

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Post by SecretFly on Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:21 pm

Yes. Now Sexton will have the power to command other players to give out to the ref and frown at the cameras. A load off his shoulders.

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Post by rodders on Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:51 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
rodders wrote:Sextons the logical pick. The signs were there when Farrell said they met to discuss Sexton taking a different role, and making the side less dependent on him.   

Sorry maybe a reading comprehension issue here....they are making the side less dependant on him by making him Captain?

Yeah Farrell and Catt plan to replace him with Burns but by making him captain he is far too busy with that to notice.
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Post by Pot Hale on Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes.  Now Sexton will have the power to command other players to give out to the ref and frown at the cameras.  A load off his shoulders.


Love it, Fly. You haven't lost your touch.




Yet.
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Post by profitius on Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:44 pm

Ultan Dillane, David Heffernan (Connacht), Max Deegan, Dave Kearney, Ronan Kelleher, Luke McGrath, Will Connors (Leinster), Chris Farrell, Jack O’Donoghue (Munster), Billy Burns, Stuart McCloskey, Jack McGrath, Tom O’Toole (Ulster) have returned to their provinces.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/02/10/ireland-players-released-back-to-provinces-to-get-game-time/
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Post by carpet baboon on Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:31 pm

Well think against Italy we should go with.

Killcoyne, kelleher, porter
Ryan, dillane
Degan, Doris VDF
Cooney Byrne
Henshaw Ringrose
Larmour, Addison, Conway

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Post by SecretFly on Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:11 pm

Yep.

Just looking at that game today, and going by the bitsy Scottish game too - this could be a much longer project getting this team back to being competitive with the very best sides..
I truly don't know what is needed.  We seem to lack a physicality to impose go forward ball now (against the best sides) - and I don't know where we're going to get it.  We can look to Provinces and Leinster but it really is another level when you have to mix it with these powerful top level International sides.  You just can't do very much creatively if you can't hold your own in the physical contest.  And now as we supposedly change our emphasis to a somewhat wider, looser, creative game (none of which got a breathing space today) we'll sacrifice even more of Schmidt's pragmatic blueprint which for a time allowed Irish players to mix it with and often dominate these bigger sides.
So I don't know where the solution is - change of players? - more changes in the back room coaching pool?  We do seem now to be missing Feek for example.

But the start has to be picking the players in best form and now ideally the younger players with perhaps more youthful resilience plus youthful hunger.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:41 pm

Meh the loss isnt as bad as being reported much as the win against Wales was not as good as reported.
Two tries which were relative brain farts (sexton and stockdale) and missed kicks from sexton...

Clear rethink needed in the type of player
Larmour - juries out despite the injury aspect he wasnt that good - lots of jinking
Earls has to start based solely on the fact that he is the only back who can pass the ball with any accuracy or variation (bring back Zebo ffs)
Henshaw deserves another go . Would actually give McCloskey a go at 12 just for the fact that he cant be worse than or more ineffectual than Aki.
Byrne over Sexton (would actually bet on Jack Crowley on the bench at this stage) our back play will never develop with Sexton.
Cooney over Murray -no brainer. would drop Murray from the 23 all together.

Toner - forget it -

Kelleher has to start as Hooker. All of the props need to take a look in the mirror and If i was John Ryan or Stephen Archer I wouldnt be too impressed

Back row is Doris, Stander, POM - most ineffectual back row member for the last 12 months has been VDF - last three games and the world cup found him out (i.e look at me i look like JP Rives./F Slattery but am nothing really like them


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Post by lostinwales on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:08 am

I think the tries would have happened one way or another. The big problem was that you were going backwards most of the time when you were attacking.

It may have been an issue with refereeing of offside. It may be down to your half backs.

As for VDF its the standard issue with proper opensides. Either they are the best players on the pitch or they are a waste of space, and it can vary game to game.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:36 am

First up no disputing who deserved to win but outside of a twelve man maul for the third try England didn’t really create a huge amount. That is something for your England thread. On our side we could have been 17-10 down at one stage despite playing really badly. That would have been interesting. Both our half backs were very poor. Cooney was actually quite poor when he came on first but improved when the game was all but over. Still I would give him a start. Vdf is a good player. But maybe could do with a reminder he is droppable. He has been fairly ordinary lately.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:33 am

The spirit is willing but the body is weak...
Or maybe it's the other way around; the body is willing but the spirit is weak.
Whichever it is, Farrell and co seem to be still as in the dark about what's all gone wrong as Schmidt was in those last interviews as coach.

Surely it must be evident in training?  Someone has to be picking up on the lack of sufficient intensity in training.  Farrell most especially knows how hard England trains and therefore must know when the individuals he's choosing aren't up to matching it  And as only one glaring example, let nobody tell me that Murray is cutting up Cooney in training.  So why has he kept appearing?  There are other comparisons you could mention too.
It seems Irish camp has become a go-easy-on-the-chosen-ones recuperation camp, where you can't fully test out the form/fitness of those chosen ones lest they break and can't turn up for the big games.
Even after 2019, we still have coaches choosing on reputation 'in big games', and therefore in turn justifying easier training regimes mid week.  If training was a fair contest and a genuine competitive environment seeking excellence then certainly four or five current starters wouldn't have been starting.  
Or maybe those Central Contracts really are unduly influencing a coach's better judgement - IRFU strongly hinting that if these select guys are getting the big bucks, they gotta earn it?

There can be no way this side that keeps getting picked is showing enough in training to prove they are ready to hit at the right tempo to match the best sides in this competition.  No way!
So I say Bono for scrumhalf against Italy.

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Post by Brendan on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:28 am

If the two mistakes don't happen and we lose by 1-5 points we would be all happy.

France are showing that picking good young players isn't bad as it brings the enthusiasm. Picking failing players hoping they come good clearly is not working.

If you know that your half backs are off form and not playing well results in players going into situations with less belief and energy. If you believe your half backs are going to always create something out of nothing for you, you are galloping into every play.

Cooney in Ulster is a case in point. Ulster are playing better as a team because they know Cooney is going to create chances. Munster and Murray are the opposite and are slow and ponderous.

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:33 am

Farrell needs to drop Sexton.
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Post by rodders on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am

lostinwales wrote:I think the tries would have happened one way or another. The big problem was that you were going backwards most of the time when you were attacking.

I think that is it, obviously Sexton and Stockdale should have done better but the real issue is that we had left that space at the back for England to exploit. Twice we were caught out and if you consider they did the same last season we should have been better prepared.

If Henshaw doesn't take May out (illegally in my opinion) then potentially that is a 3rd try from a kick through because there is no cover then either

I don't want to pick on Larmour but I think Rob Kearney has those all well covered. It's all very well wanting a more exciting style of tactic and player but we need to do the basics well.

As frustrated as people got with Joe at times he really understood this and worryingly the current coaching team don't seem to.
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Post by Peter Stringer on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am

Joe Schmidt absolutely has to go. This is a black day for Irish rugby, possibly our nadir. Look at how poor we were. Schmidt has the players totally tactically confused- they looked clueless out there. Just ask Carlos Spenser what sort of coach he is. Schmidt out! If this was Declan Kidney he would have been beheaded by the English colonists in Dublin Castle.

In other relevant news, the spring onion was invented by a man from Limerick in 1983. The more you know.

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Post by rodders on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:40 am

TightHEAD wrote:Farrell needs to drop Sexton.

For who though, with Carbury is injured, Carty not in great form then Byrne and Burns are the only alternatives. I agree he's not in great form but he's still best option.

Murray on the other hand has been poor for a while and with 2 or 3 other good options there he really shouldn't be in the 23 at all.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:44 am

Paddy Jackson?

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Post by rodders on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:53 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Paddy Jackson?

Well I was thinking of Madser myself but it's a good shout....
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Post by Pete330v2 on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:55 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Meh the loss isnt as bad as being reported much as the win against Wales was not as good as reported.
Two tries which were relative brain farts (sexton and stockdale) and missed kicks from sexton...

Clear rethink needed in the type of player
Larmour - juries out despite the injury aspect he wasnt that good - lots of jinking
Earls has to start based solely on the fact that he is the only back who can pass the ball  with any accuracy or variation (bring back Zebo ffs)
Henshaw deserves another go . Would actually give McCloskey a go at 12 just for the fact that he cant be worse than or more ineffectual than Aki.
Byrne over Sexton  (would actually bet on Jack Crowley on the bench at this stage) our back play will never develop with Sexton.
Cooney over Murray  -no brainer. would drop Murray from the 23 all together.

Toner - forget it -

Kelleher has to start as Hooker. All of the props need to take a look in the mirror and If i was John Ryan or Stephen Archer I wouldnt be too impressed

Back row is Doris, Stander, POM - most ineffectual back row member for the last 12 months has been VDF - last three games and the world cup found him out (i.e look at me i look like JP Rives./F Slattery but am nothing really like them


Agreed, especially the part in bold. I can't believe how many pundits and armchair critics like ourselves are praising Aki's performance. IMO he's very much part of the problem, not the solution. Sticking with the tried and tested is becoming detrimental to the whole setup but unfortunately solutions and alternatives are sparse. I'd love to see Sexton replaced / put under more pressure for the shirt. The problem is there's nobody who seems up for grabbing the 10 jersey. Murray is under pressure from Cooney but is that enough? It's a rebuilding process for Farrell but in order to rebuild you MUST replace some, if not all of the old with an upgrade, something that's like hens' teeth in Ireland.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:10 pm

rodders wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Farrell needs to drop Sexton.

For who though?

To paraphrase Gary Oldman in the beautiful masterpiece Leon:

ANYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mad

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:13 pm

Peter Stringer wrote:Joe Schmidt absolutely has to go. This is a black day for Irish rugby, possibly our nadir. Look at how poor we were. Schmidt has the players totally tactically confused- they looked clueless out there. Just ask Carlos Spenser what sort of coach he is. Schmidt out! If this was Declan Kidney he would have been beheaded by the English colonists in Dublin Castle.

In other relevant news, the spring onion was invented by a man from Limerick in 1983. The more you know.

Looking to get your spot back, Peter?

I'd take you too. Plus Paulie, BOD, Shane Horgan and the Bull Hayes. I ain't joking, they still probably play better than Ireland 2019/2020 vintage.

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Post by profitius on Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:50 am

Ireland 2020 Guinness Six Nations Squad. What province produced them.

Players 25 or under are bolded.


Leinster
Max Deegan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 0 caps
Caelan Doris (UCD/Leinster) 0 caps

Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 41 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 95 caps
Ronan Kelleher (Lansdowne/Leinster) 0 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary’s College/Ulster) 56 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps

Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 67 caps
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 18 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 8 caps
Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 21 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 19 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 28 caps
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 88 caps CAPTAIN


Connacht
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 14 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 40 caps
Dave Heffernan (Buccaneers/Connacht) 1 cap


Ulster
Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 25 caps
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 9 caps
Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster) 53 caps
Tom O’Toole (Banbridge/Ulster) 0 caps


Munster
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 82 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 78 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36 caps
Jack O’Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster) 2 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 64 caps


IQ
Billy Burns (Ulster) 0 caps
Will Addison (Enniskillen/Ulster) 4 caps
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 23 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 38 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 8 caps



So nearly all the bolded players are from Leinster. Poor from the other 3 provinces but better signs from the U20s.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:29 am

We have our new head coach.  He needs his year in situ at least before we start forming any semi-confirmed opinions of his rightness or wrongness for the job.
We have our new backs coach.  The same.  He'll need a year to be more fully assessed.

We've lost Schmidt - but I think both he and the players had exhausted their time together anyway - so 'lost' might be an inaccurate description.  I mean he decided he was going but it was also kind of a natural process.  A great coach but time for him to work his magic elsewhere.  Had he made major changes in personnel coming in, he might have had the tools to linger longer, had he wanted to.  But the players he mostly kept choosing were exhausted in mind and body.  There was no way for Schmidt to freshen up the sound of old commands.

Read some journalist say recently that nothing much has changed now.  It's merely a team trying to play a Schmidt game but suffering the lack of the real brains behind the system that might have kept them smarter in its execution.  Feels like he's in the right area when thinking of our problems.  Player-led fumbling Schmidtism?

But gotta say, my overall impression of what I've seen so far is that our coaching ticket still feels like remnants of an old regime trying to sound fresh using old, well worn commands.

Despite, Sexton, Murray and to an extent Stockdale looking out of sorts, off the pace and being criticised quite sharply for their efforts through the weeks, I think most of our big problems are actually in the forwards department.  Unbalanced, erratic, stodgy, showing much aggression but lacking real potency, lacking gears to assert physical dominance, lacking realistic tactics and methodology to assert physical dominance (those notorious stand-still collecting phaseplay sequences).
For me I think we look absolutely empty of fresh ideas in our tank division and I look to where rot might be in that department - and I see Simon Easterby, six years in the job and for me, time for both he and Ireland to move on.  He might not be the only 'lingering' problem (actually Feek's loss might be an even bigger developing problem)) but I can't now see Easterby as being a satisfactory part of the future.  Players need a fresh voice in the forwards department. And that needs to be sooner than later in this next WC cycle.

Plus - mouthy O'Gara in as new kicking coach - under Duress if he still doesn't want to leave France.  Time for him to put his money where his mouth is and come in to improve our damn pathetic kicking game!  mad

Thank you Wink

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Post by Pete330v2 on Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:We have our new head coach.  He needs his year in situ at least before we start forming any semi-confirmed opinions of his rightness or wrongness for the job.
We have our new backs coach.  The same.  He'll need a year to be more fully assessed.

We've lost Schmidt - but I think both he and the players had exhausted their time together anyway - so 'lost' might be an inaccurate description.  I mean he decided he was going but it was also kind of a natural process.  A great coach but time for him to work his magic elsewhere.  Had he made major changes in personnel coming in, he might have had the tools to linger longer, had he wanted to.  But the players he mostly kept choosing were exhausted in mind and body.  There was no way for Schmidt to freshen up the sound of old commands.

Read some journalist say recently that nothing much has changed now.  It's merely a team trying to play a Schmidt game but suffering the lack of the real brains behind the system that might have kept them smarter in its execution.  Feels like he's in the right area when thinking of our problems.  Player-led fumbling Schmidtism?

But gotta say, my overall impression of what I've seen so far is that our coaching ticket still feels like remnants of an old regime trying to sound fresh using old, well worn commands.

Despite, Sexton, Murray and to an extent Stockdale looking out of sorts, off the pace and being criticised quite sharply for their efforts through the weeks, I think most of our big problems are actually in the forwards department.  Unbalanced, erratic, stodgy, showing much aggression but lacking real potency, lacking gears to assert physical dominance, lacking realistic tactics and methodology to assert physical dominance (those notorious stand-still collecting phaseplay sequences).
For me I think we look absolutely empty of fresh ideas in our tank division and I look to where rot might be in that department - and I see Simon Easterby, six years in the job and for me, time for both he and Ireland to move on.  He might not be the only 'lingering' problem (actually Feek's loss might be an even bigger developing problem)) but I can't now see Easterby as being a satisfactory part of the future.  Players need a fresh voice in the forwards department.  And that needs to be sooner than later in this next WC cycle.

Plus - mouthy O'Gara in as new kicking coach - under Duress if he still doesn't want to leave France.  Time for him to put his money where his mouth is and come in to improve our damn pathetic kicking game!  mad

Thank you Wink

That gets a Bravo!!!!! clap

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