Eng V Ireland Sunday 23rd Feb 2020

3pm at Twickers.
Ref: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France), Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France), TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)

England:: Daly; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Joseph; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade.




Ireland: Ireland: Larmour; Conway, Henshaw, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, O'Mahony, van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Byrne, Earls.

Like lambs to the slaughter....

We eagerly await Eddie's team announcement, which I assume will be as late as possible and therefore on Friday? Ireland look strong, have consistent team selection and some confidence from their win over the Welsh. Good to see Doris back as well.

England are more of an unknown quantity. Much harder to see us over-powering Ireland like last year with both Vunipolas out and so many selectorial question marks. A rusty Manu playing with whom? Curry still at 8? Ford/Farrell to continue? A first game at HQ for our fullback, which the Irish half backs might enjoy?

I reckon Ireland are quietly confident after their easy win 2 years ago. Really hard to call, but I think it will be tight either way.

Farrell with the same team again. The only thing that's changed is the 'mood in the camp' but that would have changed anyway as the new 4 year cycle begins, times will never be as relaxed as in year 1 of the 4 year cycle.

First game against Scotland, okay coming off a poor rwc, first match in charge, decides the side need to get back to a win, fine with that logic but then on with the same for Wales and now England.

Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Cooney and either Doris/Deegan all deserve to be starting any of the first 3 games (ok Doris started....barely but reverts straight to the old guard with the first knock). Not all of the first 3 games, but definitely any one of them. His card is marked.

rodders wrote:Like lambs to the slaughter....

More like mutton for the slaughter

hugehandoff wrote:We eagerly await Eddie's team announcement, which I assume will be as late as possible and therefore on Friday? Ireland look strong, have consistent team selection and some confidence from their win over the Welsh. Good to see Doris back as well.

England are more of an unknown quantity. Much harder to see us over-powering Ireland like last year with both Vunipolas out and so many selectorial question marks. A rusty Manu playing with whom? Curry still at 8? Ford/Farrell to continue? A first game at HQ for our fullback, which the Irish half backs might enjoy?

I reckon Ireland are quietly confident after their easy win 2 years ago. Really hard to call, but I think it will be tight either way.

I would be surprised if Manu started, Im guessing it will be Farrell and Joseph in the centres again.

I expect Curry to continue at 8 too.

Would have preferred a backrow of Doris, Stander and VdF however as is its not too bad and hope to see Doris come in off the bench.

I'd guess if Manu is fit he plays, and he was passed fit a week ago.

If we do think he's an injury risk it may well be better to start him rather than bring him on as a sub and risk needing to sub him again.

Not expecting any major changes otherwise.

Be nice to see Earl starting but at whose expense? And it won't happen. Still a question mark over Furbank (alternative back 3 would be Thorley and May on the wings with Daly back at 15).

Marler for Mako is obvious.

Only other issue is subs. Would assume an extra back with Launchbury dropping out.

I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend. If Wales played the perfect gameplan for allowing Ireland to get out wide with almost no pressure, and then handed them scoring positions from mistakes, then England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

It would certainly open the championship up if they did.

guestalt_physicality wrote:I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend.....England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

Where is the evidence to support this lethality you speak of? A new attack coach has made a sparkling difference to England as evidenced by our champagne rugby in Paris and Edinburgh? I do hope your optimism is correct, but as we have no idea who our backs will be I fear you may be misguided?

guestalt_physicality wrote:I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend. If Wales played the perfect gameplan for allowing Ireland to get out wide with almost no pressure, and then handed them scoring positions from mistakes, then England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

It would certainly open the championship up if they did.

As much as it pains me to say it I agree.

The naval gazing spin that has been coming out of the Ireland camp under Farrell has been nauseating. In fairness the Irish media is more to blame than the players but these soundbites about how happy the players are, the enhanced focus on skills, new style is all waffle with no substance yet, this side have produced nothing on par to even our best performances of 2019, let alone 2018 and everyone in Ireland is getting carried away.

This is the first acid test under Farrell and I really hope we are up to it but we've shown nothing in the first few games to think we will fair any better than our last trip to Twickenham.

Rodders......No one is confident! Too many unknowns to predict this one.

rodders wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend. If Wales played the perfect gameplan for allowing Ireland to get out wide with almost no pressure, and then handed them scoring positions from mistakes, then England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

It would certainly open the championship up if they did.

As much as it pains me to say it I agree.

The naval gazing spin that has been coming out of the Ireland camp under Farrell has been nauseating. In fairness the Irish media is more to blame than the players but these soundbites about how happy the players are, the enhanced focus on skills, new style is all waffle with no substance yet, this side have produced nothing on par to even our best performances of 2019, let alone 2018 and everyone in Ireland is getting carried away.

This is the first acid test under Farrell and I really hope we are up to it but we've shown nothing in the first few games to think we will fair any better than our last trip to Twickenham.

Ireland are still a bit of an unknown alright but a BP win v Wales even if it is at home is a good result so at least there is that.

rodders wrote:This is the first acid test under Farrell and I really hope we are up to it but we've shown nothing in the first few games to think we will fair any better than our last trip to Twickenham.

I would take a repoeat of that.

If that's the scoreline by the end then we'll send Farrell up to Scotland to replace Townsend....with our blessing, coz there ain't no spin that'll smooth that one out.

Looking at our players though.  Just got a feeling that won't be it.  

I have my own box ready to post myself to Siberia if it does happen though.

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:This is the first acid test under Farrell and I really hope we are up to it but we've shown nothing in the first few games to think we will fair any better than our last trip to Twickenham.

I would take a repoeat of that.

That wont happen, no chance IMO.

Currently looks pretty decent weather whoch is a bonus after the farce of murrayfield.

hugehandoff wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend.....England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

Where is the evidence to support this lethality you speak of? A new attack coach has made a sparkling difference to England as evidenced by our champagne rugby in Paris and Edinburgh? I do hope your optimism is correct, but as we have no idea who our backs will be I fear you may be misguided?

You can start with the last time these two met at HQ.

But really it's a gut instint on the two teams' abilities. Ireland still look like a very meat and potatoes rugby team (no pun intended) that relies on typical Irish qualities of hard work, pressure on the lineout, playing territory and plugging the corners, and squeezing the life out of the opposition when they get in the 22. England on the other hand despite their slow start still have the most dynamic team in the competition with incredible depth and have a forward pack that will at least match Ireland's. Given they have dismantled them twice in the last 12 months in very different ways and given that their defensive unit will likely shut Ireland from moving it wide, something Wales refused to do and allowed Ireland acres of space down the wing for easy yardage as they try to learn the new defensive system after 12 years of Edwards, I would expect Ireland to get caught behind the gainline on the inside time and time again and that old 'dominant tackles' stat to be drawn up on screen a few times during the game.

That's my prediction anyway. I don't have to prove it with evidence now to convince you or anyone else. Let's just see what happens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Currently looks pretty decent weather whoch is a bonus after the farce of murrayfield.

"Remember Trevor Chappell? Bowled under arm along the ground. Couldn't hit the ball for six. We saw a Trevor Chappell game of rugby today.

"We still haven't played a game. We haven't played rugby yet."

If that was rugby I might as well retire mate.

Hell I'd be ok with seeing a kick a thon with the kicks not being blown back over the kickers head after a fortnight ago.

Slightly nervous about this one. If Ireland match us physically I can see their backs putting some nasty kicks in to test Furbank, they could get a lot from that.

yappysnap wrote:Slightly nervous about this one. If Ireland match us physically I can see their backs putting some nasty kicks in to test Furbank, they could get a lot from that.

gut feel Furbank on the bench, Daly at 15, Thorley on the wing. In part, with Ireland tending to put high kicks on the wings rather than down the middle, this protects Daly from a barrage and allows Furbank to come into the game as it opens up.

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:I have a feeling England might thump Ireland this weekend. If Wales played the perfect gameplan for allowing Ireland to get out wide with almost no pressure, and then handed them scoring positions from mistakes, then England will do the exact opposite and be lethal in attack as well.

It would certainly open the championship up if they did.

As much as it pains me to say it I agree.

The naval gazing spin that has been coming out of the Ireland camp under Farrell has been nauseating. In fairness the Irish media is more to blame than the players but these soundbites about how happy the players are, the enhanced focus on skills, new style is all waffle with no substance yet, this side have produced nothing on par to even our best performances of 2019, let alone 2018 and everyone in Ireland is getting carried away.

This is the first acid test under Farrell and I really hope we are up to it but we've shown nothing in the first few games to think we will fair any better than our last trip to Twickenham.

Ireland are still a bit of an unknown alright but a BP win v Wales even if it is at home is a good result so at least there is that.

Yes it was Guns, but how much of it was down to Wales being poor is what i wonder? For example for Larmours try the tackling was uncharacteristically poor for Wales. Last season we had back to back wins against Wales in the RWC warm ups and demolished Scotland in the pool. I'm not convinced we've even hit that level in our first two games.

There seems to be a lazy narrative being pushed that we were terrible last season and were too afraid under Schmidt to play rugby, and that Farrell and Catt have removed the shackles and now we are playing heads up rugby an ushering in a new era.

From what I see, yes the attacking patterns are a bit different and we've been decent but the general quality of performance isn't anything like our best under Schmidt so far, in fact if Joe was still in charge I think there would be a fair bit of criticism rather than so much positivity.

I think we were better last year than has been made out and we haven't been as good as the first two results have suggested.

Farrell (senior) reeling back somewhat on the initial bouncy optimism of the first two weeks.  "There's a few things that we needed to fix", "See if we can get a better performance...",
So good to just get tiny hints that tightening up will be demanded and no over-confident reaction to two home wins.
It's wrong to say the real Six Nations begins at the weekend because that would disrespect both Scotland (who played better than us in many ways ...except the scoreboard due to some fumble fingers) and Wales, a side still very much in the running for another Championship.
But an away game against Eddie Jones and England...... it'll be interesting to see if we have a gear or two more in the tank especially for such a day.  If England play to their best, especially in an explosive first quarter, then yep, we'll need a few gears more to halt another embarrassing implosion.
That's Farrell's main job - to honestly uncover the reasons for the dramatic implosions in recent times and to FIX those causes.  Don't mind losing - well,..... .... don't mind losing if still competitive.  The Implosions though must be stopped! Farrell's first big test in that regard.

Not sure if this has been posted, but England's updated 27 man squad for this game:

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Ben Earl (Saracens)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

What do you think of Eddie and his selection of the backs? A number of issues for me. He has never settled on a first choice formation. The Manu/Slade option went well in the 6Ns last year, but unfortunately Slade was mainly injured for the RWC. In his absence we had the Ford/Farrell/Manu combo which is only ok. No real conviction there. I think we we all believe that Farrell is our best 10 and he should start there. Ford on the bench to either replace Farrell or to move Farrell to 12 - happy with that late in the game. Starting alongside Farrell should be Slade and Manu. If Slade injured then a Devoto type option or Lozowski. If Manu injured then it should be Daly at 13 and then JJ.

He could play Slade and Manu this Sunday, which would be a huge risk with both returning from injuries. Slade has not played since December and apparently Eddie refused permission for him to play for Exeter V Glocs last Friday - surely that would have been ideal?

Daly.....Eddie has made a bit of mess with his selection at 15. Whilst Daly has incredible all-round skills he has never looked comfortable at 15. Eddie now admits this by playing Furbank. Daly's preferred position is 13 in which we have not seen him play for England. A formidable bench option for sure.

And the lack of a 3rd scrum half has baffled us all and is also unnecessary.

We have to trust in Eddie, but I do think he has managed the forwards way better than the backs.

I would prefer: Youngs, Farrell, May, Manu, Slade, Watson, Nowell when all fit with Heinz, Ford and Daly on the bench. If a 6:2 bench split then just Heinz and Ford on the bench.

Eddie will probably go for: Heinz, Ford, May, Farrell, Manu, Daly, Furbank and just Youngs and Devoto. But guessing Eddie is a fool's game.

Hmm. Would expect Dunn, Ewels Launchbury and one of Slade, Joseph and Thorley to drop out

hugehandoff wrote:What do you think of Eddie and his selection of the backs? A number of issues for me. He has never settled on a first choice formation. The Manu/Slade option went well in the 6Ns last year, but unfortunately Slade was mainly injured for the RWC. In his absence we had the Ford/Farrell/Manu combo which is only ok. No real conviction there. I think we we all believe that Farrell is our best 10 and he should start there. Ford on the bench to either replace Farrell or to move Farrell to 12 - happy with that late in the game. Starting alongside Farrell should be Slade and Manu. If Slade injured then a Devoto type option or Lozowski. If Manu injured then it should be Daly at 13 and then JJ.

He could play Slade and Manu this Sunday, which would be a huge risk with both returning from injuries. Slade has not played since December and apparently Eddie refused permission for him to play for Exeter V Glocs last Friday - surely that would have been ideal?

Daly.....Eddie has made a bit of mess with his selection at 15. Whilst Daly has incredible all-round skills he has never looked comfortable at 15. Eddie now admits this by playing Furbank. Daly's preferred position is 13 in which we have not seen him play for England. A formidable bench option for sure.

And the lack of a 3rd scrum half has baffled us all and is also unnecessary.

We have to trust in Eddie, but I do think he has managed the forwards way better than the backs.

I would prefer: Youngs, Farrell, May, Manu, Slade, Watson, Nowell when all fit with Heinz, Ford and Daly on the bench. If a 6:2 bench split then just Heinz and Ford on the bench.

Eddie will probably go for: Heinz, Ford, May, Farrell, Manu, Daly, Furbank and just Youngs and Devoto. But guessing Eddie is a fool's game.  

Do we, tend to think that 'we' all think that Ford is the better 10 and gets the back line moving in a way that Farrell can't.

SecretFly wrote:  Don't mind losing - well,..... .... don't mind losing if still competitive.  The Implosions though must be stopped!  Farrell's first big test in that regard.

No I agree, if we put in a good performance I think that is enough. We've been comprehensively beaten in the last 2 games so a narrow loss wouldn't be too bad, if we win our remaining games.

I think Ford is playing much better and smarter than Farrell, but that Farrell is currently close to undropable.

Farrell for aggressive collision-centric physicality. Ford for sleight-of-hand ball-centric space-chess. Horses for courses.

lostinwales wrote:I think Ford is playing much better and smarter than Farrell, but that Farrell is currently close to undropable.

He's close to undropable based on being the captain and truth be told he's not done a great job of that either. Ford with Tuilagi and Slade would work quite well.

Soul Requiem wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I think Ford is playing much better and smarter than Farrell, but that Farrell is currently close to undropable.

He's close to undropable based on being the captain and truth be told he's not done a great job of that either. Ford with Tuilagi and Slade would work quite well.

I would love to see how that midfield would go. Cannot see it ever happening though.

SecretFly wrote:Farrell for aggressive collision-centric physicality. Ford for sleight-of-hand ball-centric space-chess.  Horses for courses.  

I played space chess once, after eating space cake. It was a blast.

LondonTiger wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I think Ford is playing much better and smarter than Farrell, but that Farrell is currently close to undropable.

He's close to undropable based on being the captain and truth be told he's not done a great job of that either. Ford with Tuilagi and Slade would work quite well.

I would love to see how that midfield would go. Cannot see it ever happening though.

You then pick a back three of so called specialists so between May, Watson, Nowell, Cokanasiga and Furbank; Farrell and Daly as your bench men would be pretty useful and cover all positions.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Farrell for aggressive collision-centric physicality. Ford for sleight-of-hand ball-centric space-chess.  Horses for courses.  

I played space chess once, after eating space cake. It was a blast.

Obviously never been checkmated by a wandering wormhole! I had terrible migraines for 3 months after.

Are you sure it wasn't just Low Orbit Draughts you were playing?

It definitely began as chess....

Furbank is still an unknown at this level, against France he looked a little lost, but he was thrown into the lions den without anything to defend him. England just let the French runners straight through, no blockers, no players backing him up when he got hit. They let him down badly. Against Scotland, could anybody catch the ball? His confidence was dented when on the first pass he received was on his hip and not in front of him, he had no chance of catching that ball, things went down hill from there.

It would be good to see him play in decent weather when he has some protection, for Saints he is very assured under the high ball and comes into the line exceptionally well. He has the skills of a complete set of backs, can play 10 to 15, with the exception probably of 12, too small.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:can play 10 to 15, with the exception probably of 12, too small.

Rare for an International to be International standard across such a wide selection of numbers.  Club can of course ask for or demand such versatility.  But International?  He'll have to choose one or at most two.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Furbank is still an unknown at this level, against France he looked a little lost, but he was thrown into the lions den without anything to defend him. England just let the French runners straight through, no blockers, no players backing him up when he got hit. They let him down badly. Against Scotland, could anybody catch the ball? His confidence was dented when on the first pass he received was on his hip and not in front of him, he had no chance of catching that ball, things went down hill from there.

It would be good to see him play in decent weather when he has some protection, for Saints he is very assured under the high ball and comes into the line exceptionally well. He has the skills of a complete set of backs, can play 10 to 15, with the exception probably of 12, too small.

Fully agree. Two caps in and we've really learned nothing about him on the international stage. No one turned up against France (other than May), and the Scotland game was a complete write-off. Fingers crossed the weather holds this weekend and we get to see him ball in hand and in a little space.

My initial (and purely superficial) view of him is that he looks very undersized for international rugby. We haven't seen what his last ditch defence is like yet. Is he a reliable defender?

Defense for full backs is a funny one. They often only make 3 or 4 tackles a game but they are the last line of defense and cannot hide.

He will get trundled by a big forward, but will take him down, bit like Ford. Cracking cover tackler coming in from the side, seem to be able to lift the ball carrier and knock him yards sideways.

Saints have managed to leak a lot of tries since he has been away, but that is more concentration than the loss of Furbank I think.

lostinwales wrote:Defense for full backs is a funny one. They often only make 3 or 4 tackles a game but they are the last line of defense and cannot hide.

More to the point, the hallmark of a great fullback is how well they control the opposition's attacking options by positioning alone. Brown had it; Daly doesn't. Fullback's a specialist position, or at least one that requires specialist skills, and player's that don't have those skills shouldn't be playing there.

Interesting. Obano has been called back into the squad which implies either Marler or Genge is struggling. No news on who might be carrying an injury.

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure if this has been posted, but England's updated 27 man squad for this game:

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Ben Earl (Saracens)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
   
Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

What is this updated 27 man squad bollix a few days before the game all about...

Your have your 6 Nations Squad, you then select your match day 23 the week before the game, like every other side does...

Selecting a updated squad in the week running up to the game is a waste of time.

Don't worry.  It's only the Thursday Updated 27 man squad.... those who get room and board for the night.  Friday's updated 27 man squad will be announced next Tuesday, so as not to give Andy Farrell any clues.

We do it just so we can rub in the fact we can actually put together 27 players without scrubbing through other countries cast off cupboard

BamBam wrote:We do it just so we can rub in the fact we can actually put together 27 players without scrubbing through other countries cast off cupboard

No, it's just that Eddie wants to prove to the world that he can count to 27.  
It's always the question that gets to him:

"Count to twenty seven without pausing Eddie."
"Whad'a'ya mean, mate?  Are ya tryin' to say we're not tough enough?  Are ya tryin' to say we should'a lost to Scotland.  We played all the rugby, mate.  Conditions meant that there was probably only ten minutes of real rugby, if that.  But we played all of it.  Did ya see the game, mate?"
"Just count to twenty seven."
"Are ya sayin' New Zealand was a fluke, mate?  Ya don't rate us?  World Cup finalists but we don't reach your high standards, is that it, mate?"
"You can't, can you?"
"I don't get you people.  You always try complicate a simple game.  Farrell, Ford.  There's no 'or', mate.  We're lucky.  We got both of them when most teams would think themselves lucky to have one of them.  Don't look for issues where there is none.  You'll do yourself damage, mate."

BamBam wrote:We do it just so we can rub in the fact we can actually put together 27 players without scrubbing through other countries cast off cupboard

Hands up if you were born in England guys......

Daily Mail saying Manu back with Ford and Farrell. Lawes may return to counter Ireland lineout. Marler a slight injury doubt with Obano on standby for sub role.
Really hoping the Lawes thing is totally wrong.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Furbank is still an unknown at this level, against France he looked a little lost, but he was thrown into the lions den without anything to defend him. England just let the French runners straight through, no blockers, no players backing him up when he got hit. They let him down badly. Against Scotland, could anybody catch the ball? His confidence was dented when on the first pass he received was on his hip and not in front of him, he had no chance of catching that ball, things went down hill from there.

It would be good to see him play in decent weather when he has some protection, for Saints he is very assured under the high ball and comes into the line exceptionally well. He has the skills of a complete set of backs, can play 10 to 15, with the exception probably of 12, too small.

To be honest he really should have caught that ball, yes it wasn't perfect, but it was in his hands and if he's only catching perfect passes then he's not going to be getting his hands on the ball much!

Otherwise I agree, we haven't really seen much these two games, conditions haven't been good and he's not really put himself about. I'd give him until the end of the tournament but he does need to step up a bit more. He looks very small too.