2020 And Beyond: Andy Farrell's Ireland

First topic message reminder :

I've started this thread to appease the mocker gods.


It's almost the end of an era as Schmidt's time is coming to an end. Farrell is the new coach and will bring in his own way of doing things. Mike Catt is the new attack coach and John Fogarty takes over from Greg Feel.


There'll be changes in squad selections too with players possibly being involved with the squad for the last time in this world cup. Ireland don't do world cup cycles like other teams so for instance the 32 year old Healy won't be gotten rid of even though he's unlikely to make the next world cup.


There's a new generation of players emerging now so who do you think will make the squad in 2020 and the proceeding years?

SecretFly wrote:Has Sean O'Brien retired?  Well that is news to me if true.  I must be very ill informed lately

Retired from playing test rugby probably given his move to LI and age.

Article with Dave Kearney. He said the camp is more relaxed and less intense and the style of play is going to be more expansive.


From what he could glean in the brief pitch session, the broad brushstrokes of Ireland’s attacking patterns will be tweaked to make them more expansive. “I think so, I’d say so, yeah. It’s probably similar to the way that we play here [in Leinster] I guess.

“We play that expansive game, everyone likes to get their hands on the ball, we get the ball to the edges, wingers working off their wings, 15s playing in that first receiver role too, 12 and 13 working around the corner as well. I think for backs we will probably be able to express ourselves a bit more, get their hands on the ball a bit more.”

A few things I thought about whilst reading the Dave Kearney interview:

One - no harm done.  Journalists want angles, players answer questions.  Kearney gets asked for his opinion on a few things and gives them.

Two - he did admit not a lot was done at that first camp under Farrell.  Even before him saying so I think most of us would have come to the same conclusion; - a greeting session, a few overviews of ambitions for the year ahead, a chance for IRFU to show off its new purpose built complex; and a for-charity Christmas outing for the players on the streets of Dublin.  So talk is good but, as yet, that's all it is.

Three - it seems many people (perhaps even Dave) choose to forget that one Joe Schmidt himself was at the helm of Leinster.  And he coached quite a slick outfit in his time with the titles to prove it.  This man knows what a team with bells and whistles on looks like.  The pertinent point is that this renowned deep thinker chose quite a revolution in his approach when he took on the International job.  AND.... overall, he proved quite accomplished at the task.  
In short, this intense and intelligent rugby coach had reasons for not fully taking his 'Leinster' blueprint with him to International.  And in terms of ranking position and results for most of his tenure, it proved itself an astute decision.

Personally speaking, I love for Ireland to explode into action in a high octane change of pace and intent.  I'd love to see them play more like Leinster IF doing so maintained ranking levels and proved potent in terms of results against the top sides (SA, NZ, England and possibly now a revamped Australia).  But there is no point in producing dash, sprint and offloading splendour if it proves impotent in actually amassing a steady sequence of wins.  Yes, any new style will require some time and leeway to bed down, but any new emphasis really does have a lot to live up to in terms of the competitiveness and sheer power of the game Schmidt showed the world in its pomp.  It wasn't beautiful but patience will die quickly if we start playing a version of Scottish chaos-theory rugby but start drifting down the rankings chart.
Joe Schmidt himself was clear in his departing warning. Don't change everything, he said.  And despite the WC fiasco, he's still a pretty smart man who should be listened to.

If we were to pick a back line purely on current form and fitness I would go
9 Cooney
10 Burns
11 Dave k
12. McCloskey
13 Ringrose
14. Conway/ Baloucoune
15. Lamour

carpet baboon wrote:If we were to pick a back line purely on current form and fitness I would go
9    Cooney
10  Burns
11  Dave k
12. McCloskey
13  Ringrose
14. Conway/ Baloucoune
15. Addison

I'd have Addison at 15. He missed a few high balls against Munster but was out of this world against Connacht. Larmour has been in great form too but Addison just brings a creativity that no one else brings, every time he has the ball he's looking to create space.

On form the back line is a bit skewed towards Ulster because they've rotated less than Leinster, were really Ringrose has been the one consistent stand out player, for Ulster Cooney, Burns, McCloskey, Addison and also Marshall have been in such form. That said none were involved in the RWC, whereas many of the established players haven't found their form yet and shouldn't be written off - Earls, O'Mahoney, Henshaw and Murray in particular.

I actually think outside of hooker and fullback we may not see much change but on form these players are really putting their hands up -

15 Addison/Larmour
14 Conway/Balacoune
13 Ringrose/ Marshall
12 McCloskey / Scannell
11 Stockdale / Kearney / Gilroy
10 Burns/Ross Byrne
9 Cooney/ McGrath/ Gibson Park
8 Dorris/ Deegan
7 VDF/Connors/Reidy
6 Ruddock/ Rea / O'Donahue
5 Henderson / Toner /
4 Ryan / Dillane
3 Porter / Furlong / Moore
2 Scannell/ Cronin / Herring
1 McGrath /Kilcoyne  

Captaincy will be interesting, I strongly suspected Farrell would go with O'Mahoney but given on form he doesn't warrant a place I think it has to be 2 horse race between Sexton and Ryan. Apart from Ringrose and Furlong they are the only options nailed on to start.

Interesting times.

I would love to see a back 3 of Stockdale Addison and larmor.
All three are comfortable at 15 and all 3 can attack.
Would be a bit unfair for Conway who has been outstanding the last 12 month's.

It your right the competition for places is very good.

And has Ringrose ever captained a side? He's nailed on starting if fit, has plenty of experience

Yeah I was thinking whether Ringrose is an outside bet for captaincy. Sexton is the safe option but how many games will he play realistically. Farrell has already said he wants to develop options at 10.

Sexton or POM would be a short term captain for this 6n and then he should look at Ringrose or Ryan to take up the job from next season

SecretFly wrote:A few things I thought about whilst reading the Dave Kearney interview:

One - no harm done.  Journalists want angles, players answer questions.  Kearney gets asked for his opinion on a few things and gives them.

Two - he did admit not a lot was done at that first camp under Farrell.  Even before him saying so I think most of us would have come to the same conclusion; - a greeting session, a few overviews of ambitions for the year ahead, a chance for IRFU to show off its new purpose built complex; and a for-charity Christmas outing for the players on the streets of Dublin.  So talk is good but, as yet, that's all it is.

Three - it seems many people (perhaps even Dave) choose to forget that one Joe Schmidt himself was at the helm of Leinster.  And he coached quite a slick outfit in his time with the titles to prove it.  This man knows what a team with bells and whistles on looks like.  The pertinent point is that this renowned deep thinker chose quite a revolution in his approach when he took on the International job.  AND.... overall, he proved quite accomplished at the task.  
In short, this intense and intelligent rugby coach had reasons for not fully taking his 'Leinster' blueprint with him to International.  And in terms of ranking position and results for most of his tenure, it proved itself an astute decision.

Personally speaking, I love for Ireland to explode into action in a high octane change of pace and intent.  I'd love to see them play more like Leinster IF doing so maintained ranking levels and proved potent in terms of results against the top sides (SA, NZ, England and possibly now a revamped Australia).  But there is no point in producing dash, sprint and offloading splendour if it proves impotent in actually amassing a steady sequence of wins.  Yes, any new style will require some time and leeway to bed down, but any new emphasis really does have a lot to live up to in terms of the competitiveness and sheer power of the game Schmidt showed the world in its pomp.  It wasn't beautiful but patience will die quickly if we start playing a version of Scottish chaos-theory rugby but start drifting down the rankings chart.
Joe Schmidt himself was clear in his departing warning. Don't change everything, he said.  And despite the WC fiasco, he's still a pretty smart man who should be listened to.

I'd say Mike Catt signing signals where Farrell wants to go in terms of style. Italy played a nice expansive style but just lacked a bit of quality. I'd say Catt is licking his lips at the higher caliber player that ireland have. He's also a better coach now than he was when he was coaching England.


I'm not too concerned with who Farrell picks but how they play. So I would like to see Cooney over Murray and McCluskey over Aki/Henshaw.

So who are going to be the "surprising", "outrageous", "no-brainer", "don't know what Schmidt saw in him" non-picks for Farrell's first 6N squad (for the first two rounds, etc) from your declared province?

For Leinster, I'm gonna go with:

Toner, Ruddock, L McGrath, Henshaw, R Kearney

Here's last years initial 38-man squad announced on 16 Jan last year:

Hookers: Rory Best (Ulster, capt), Sean Cronin (Leinster), Niall Scannell (Munster).
Props: Tadhg Furlong (Leinster), Cian Healy (Leinster), Dave Kilcoyne (Munster), Jack McGrath (Leinster), Andrew Porter (Leinster), John Ryan (Munster).
Locks: Tadgh Beirne (Munster), Ultan Dillane (Connacht), Iain Henderson (Ulster), James Ryan (Leinster), Devin Toner (Leinster).
Back row: Jack Conan (Leinster), Jordi Murphy (Ulster), Sean O'Brien (Leinster), Peter O'Mahony (Munster), Rhys Ruddock (Leinster), CJ Stander (Munster), Josh van der Flier (Leinster).

Back three: Will Addison (Ulster), Andrew Conway (Munster), Keith Earls (Munster), Rob Kearney (Leinster), Jordan Larmour (Leinster), Jacob Stockdale (Ulster).
Centres: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Chris Farrell (Munster), Tom Farrell (Connacht), Robbie Henshaw (Leinster), Garry Ringrose (Leinster).
Fly-halves: Joey Carbery (Munster), Jack Carty (Connacht), Johnny Sexton (Leinster).
Scrum-halves: Caolin Blade (Connacht), John Cooney (Ulster), Conor Murray (Munster).

None picks?

In terms of picks, I suspect Farrell might surprise a few people by selecting Burns and McCloskey against Scotland, possibly Cooney too but I think he may be on the bench behind Murray, if we have an inexperienced 10.

McCloskey as a player is a very similar stature to Farrell himself and also Sam Burgess, as a an ex-league man I'm sure he will like the idea of a big ball carrying 12 who can offload and McCloskey may be the man he builds his back line around. On paper McCloskey is the perfect foil for Ringrose so maybe we will see that emerge as the 1st choice midfield.

I'm sure if Sexton is fit he starts but Burns may be higher in the pecking order than people think. He's very highly rated in England and may have usurped Carbury, Carty and Byrne, with his excellent form at Ulster.

Going with an Ulster 9-12 axis and Addison at 15 would be a real statement of change.

rodders wrote:None picks?

In terms of picks, I suspect Farrell might surprise a few people by selecting Burns and McCloskey against Scotland, possibly Cooney too but I think he may be on the bench behind Murray, if we have an inexperienced 10.

McCloskey as a player is a very similar stature to Farrell himself and also Sam Burgess, as a an ex-league man I'm sure he will like the idea of a big ball carrying 12 who can offload and McCloskey may be the man he builds his back line around.  On paper McCloskey is the perfect foil for Ringrose so maybe we will see that emerge as the 1st choice midfield.

I'm sure if Sexton is fit he starts but Burns may be higher in the pecking order than people think. He's very highly rated in England and may have usurped Carbury, Carty and Byrne, with his excellent form at Ulster.  

Going with an Ulster 9-12 axis and Addison at 15 would be a real statement of change.

Yes non-picks. Who would you think that Farrell won't select or drop from expected squad? If you think Mccloskey should be selected, then who gets dropped? If you think Burns should be selected, then who does Farrell not pick?

OK so obviously there are injuries which advance the need to bring in some new faces. I predict from what I heard that Farrell and Catt will favour a slightly different style of play, with the 15 taking up first receiver a lot, rather than primarily a defensive sweeper covering the backfield.

In my opinion that strongly favors Addison as the likely replacement for Kearney ahead of Larmour, who may find himself on the wing or bench more. Might we see less of Earls as a consequence?

I think McCloskey will put genuine pressure on Henshaw, who won't find himself as key as in the past for Ireland.

At 10 Farrell has already said one of his aims is to be less reliant on Sexton, I think Burns could be the main understudy, how highly Farrell rates Carbury as a 10 we will see in time. It could be he is seen more as an option at 15.

15 as first receiver? Sounds like they're copying New Zealand from 2 years ago then.

I don't think NZ invented the idea, it's been around years but just not something Schmidt favored in a full back.

That's a good point rodders. Will Coney be the scrum half now as he looks electric. I was never that impressed by Conor Murray I have to be honet.

I don't think NZ invented the idea, it's been around years but just not something Schmidt favored in a full back.  

Seem to recall Kearney played plenty that way as a Leinster player under Schmidt.  But you gotta stay at home and mind the house too sometimes, especially at International.  Joe asked people to stay at home too often at International, that's all.  
Defences are still premium though so I see a lorrah tries being scored this season in Pro14!  A lorrah big scoring games! Players look good when attack is effective.  But are the tries really coming from better attack play or are players trying to put themselves in the shop window as attackers at the expense of being honest defenders?  Tries scored is defenders beaten.  Energy used in attack is energy not reserved for defence.

So ... we'll see if Farrell gets the balance right and which players are best at both parts of the game.

I read that Farrell is likely to name Sexton as captain. Slight surprise for me bearing in mind his age and recent fitness record.

LondonTiger wrote:I read that Farrell is likely to name Sexton as captain. Slight surprise for me bearing in mind his age and recent fitness record.

Possibly Captain until his central contract finishes in 2021 and then reassess. Vice captain will also be developed I suspect, probably when Sexton is not picked to play at all - maybe in Summer series in Oz or some of the Nov tests. But he needs Carbery back fit for that to happen, unless Byrne, Carty, Burns zoom past him.

There was a big article on billy Burns in the Times, in part because Ulster play Bath (and Freddie) this weekend. Is Burns the Younger's form good enough to be capped? Would he have to play alongside Cooney?

Well he’s in the wider 6N squad announced today.

Ireland 2020 Guinness Six Nations Squad:
Forwards (19):

Max Deegan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 0 caps
Caelan Doris (UCD/Leinster) 0 caps
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht) 14 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 41 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 95 caps
Dave Heffernan (Buccaneers/Connacht) 1 cap
Iain Henderson (Academy/Ulster) 53 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 8 caps
Ronan Kelleher (Lansdowne/Leinster) 0 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary’s College/Ulster) 56 caps
Jack O’Donoghue (UL Bohemians/Munster) 2 caps
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 64 caps
Tom O’Toole (Banbridge/Ulster) 0 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 38 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 67 caps
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster) 23 caps

Backs (16):

Will Addison (Enniskillen/Ulster) 4 caps
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 23 caps
Billy Burns (Ulster) 0 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 3 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 18 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College/Ulster) 8 caps
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 82 caps
Chris Farrell (Young Munster/Munster) 9 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 40 caps
Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster) 19 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary’s College/Leinster) 21 caps
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster) 19 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 78 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 28 caps
Jonathan Sexton (St Marys College/Leinster) 88 caps CAPTAIN
Jacob Stockdale (Lurgan/Ulster) 25 caps

Development Players:

Ryan Baird (Dublin University/Leinster)
Robert Baloucoune (Enniskillen/Ulster)
Harry Byrne (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Will Connors (UCD/Leinster).

No Stu McCloskey?
Fair enough, we're more than happy to keep him with Ulster but still, No Stu McCloskey?

Rob Kearney, Niall Scannell, Rhys Ruddock, John Ryan, Jordi Murphy, Sean Cronin and Jack Carty, dropped

Gibson Park, Marmion, Roux, Moore or McCloskey didn’t make the cut either.

Ireland Six Nations squad (37):

Props (6) - Cian Healy, Dave Kilcoyne, Jack McGrath, Tadhg Furlong, Andrew Porter, Tom O'Toole.

Hookers (3) - Dave Heffernan, Rob Herring, Ronan Kelleher.

Second rows (4) - James Ryan, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Ultan Dillane.

Back rows (6) - Jack O'Donoghue, Josh van der Flier, Caelan Doris, Max Deegan, Peter O'Mahony, CJ Stander.

Scrum-halves (3) - Conor Murray, John Cooney, Luke McGrath.

Out-halves (3) - Johnny Sexton (C), Ross Byrne, Billy Burns.

Centres (4) - Bundee Aki, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, Chris Farrell.

Back three (6) - Jordan Larmour, Dave Kearney, Andrew Conway, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Will Addison.

Development players (4) - Will Connors, Harry Byrne, Ryan Baird, Robert Baloucoune.

Pot Hale wrote:Niall Scannell, Rhys Ruddock, John Ryan and Jack Carty, dropped

Gibson Park or McCloskey didn’t make the cut either.

I wasn't expecting some of those names to be dropped.


No Kleyn either.

Pete330v2 wrote:No Stu McCloskey?
Fair enough, we're more than happy to keep him with Ulster but still, No Stu McCloskey?

Which 12 has been playing better than him this season?
As it hasn't been henshaw or aki

Also amazed that Ruddock isn't in

Neither Kleyn or Roux selected - are both injured?

Pot Hale wrote:Neither Kleyn or Roux selected - are both injured?

Kleyn is I think.noixea about roux

No Kearneys. End of an era.

McCloskey is very hard done by. Scannell is the most surprising exclusion.

But can anyone tell me why Jack Carty is suddenly so out of favour? He seems to be being blamed for the Japan defeat which I find odd given he set up both of our tries. He's still a very talented young-ish 10 and one I'd like to see more of for Ireland.

profitius wrote:No Kearneys. End of an era.

Except Dave Kearney.

carpet baboon wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:No Stu McCloskey?
Fair enough, we're more than happy to keep him with Ulster but still, No Stu McCloskey?

Which 12 has been playing better than him this season?
As it hasn't been henshaw or aki

The simple answer is nobody, Henshaw IMO is overrated and Bundi is one dimensional. Stu has worked hard on his all round game and is as complete a 12 as there is in Ireland. I had fully expected him to be selected but it seems it's not just Schmidt that didn't rate him. What will keep him in Ireland now? He's been offered big money before, I can't see why he'd stay when his Ulster contract expires in 2022. Ireland's loss could very well turn out to be Ulster's loss as well.

Pot Hale wrote:

profitius wrote:No Kearneys. End of an era.

Except Dave Kearney.

Didn't see him slipping past me.

Englishman in peace here.

I have to say I am staggered by the appointment of Sexton as Captain. I understand that he's an experienced playmaker, but he strikes me as a bit hot-headed and can let his attention wander a bit in games. Plus he's probably held together with gaffer tape, staples and sealant and there's no certainty that he'll be fit. Even if he is back for the Scotland match, I can see the likes of Bradbury and Richie targeting him. Just seems an odd fit to me. O'Mahoney would have been a better pick in my eyes, but hey, Andy Farrell knows them far better than me!!

Nice to see some new young blood in there pushing for places though. Good luck!!

Mr Bounce wrote:

he strikes me as a bit hot-headed and can let his attention wander a bit in games.

Both of which might be positively influenced by the responsibility of Captaincy.  Often his frustrations were magnified when he felt powerless to churn things up that weren't going well.  You'd often notice the head  dipping when Rory pointed to the posts and three points.  Yep Sexton is more driven and intense....at least he was before being Captain.  Maybe it's time for younger impatient players now to dip the head when he points to the posts.
Anyway, who is to say how long he'll have the role?  He might get a career ending injury in the first ten minutes of his first game.  Nobody knows.  But for now, he's as good a choice as any.  When in top form he controls the entire rhythm of the team so might as well be given the General role in formal terms.

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here.

I have to say I am staggered by the appointment of Sexton as Captain. I understand that he's an experienced playmaker, but he strikes me as a bit hot-headed and can let his attention wander a bit in games. Plus he's probably held together with gaffer tape, staples and sealant and there's no certainty that he'll be fit. Even if he is back for the Scotland match, I can see the likes of Bradbury and Richie targeting him. Just seems an odd fit to me. O'Mahoney would have been a better pick in my eyes, but hey, Andy Farrell knows them far better than me!!

Nice to see some new young blood in there pushing for places though. Good luck!!

He's not that hot-headed really. He's toned that down a lot. Never lets his attention wander. He's used to being targeted, and if Scotland choose to go that route again, they may find themselves on the losing side again. O'Mahony has not been playing as well as he used to, and may find his position under threat from the Rise of the Ds - Deegan and Doris. Stander could get shifted to 6, and Deegan and Doris alternating at No 8./Bench.

I was a bit surprised to see Sexton made captain as well, but more because of his age and his on-going injury issues, which also might well be related to the wear and tear he has put himself through over the course of his long career.

There is going to have to be a longer term candidate, someone like James Ryan springs to mind.

Maybe Farrell does not want to rock the boat to soon as he goes about the task of rebuilding the squad, there are still quite a lot of stalwarts in it the wrong side of 30. Has anyone other than Best retired themselves after the WC?

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here.

I have to say I am staggered by the appointment of Sexton as Captain. I understand that he's an experienced playmaker, but he strikes me as a bit hot-headed and can let his attention wander a bit in games. Plus he's probably held together with gaffer tape, staples and sealant and there's no certainty that he'll be fit. Even if he is back for the Scotland match, I can see the likes of Bradbury and Richie targeting him. Just seems an odd fit to me. O'Mahoney would have been a better pick in my eyes, but hey, Andy Farrell knows them far better than me!!

Nice to see some new young blood in there pushing for places though. Good luck!!

Were you suprised when Dylan Hartley and Owen Farrell captained England in the past? Dont necessarly mean this as a sneer.

O'Mahoney would be lucky to make the match day squad based on form. Mind you Sexton is not the future either. Id say he will caprain Ireland for a year and then retire.

Would like to see Murray dropped. Cooney is by far the form 9.

BigGee wrote:I was a bit surprised to see Sexton made captain as well, but more because of his age and his on-going injury issues, which also might well be related to the wear and tear he has put himself through over the course of his long career.

There is going to have to be a longer term candidate, someone like James Ryan springs to mind.

Maybe Farrell does not want to rock the boat to soon as he goes about the task of rebuilding the squad, there are still quite a lot of stalwarts in it the wrong side of 30. Has anyone other than Best retired themselves after the WC?

Exactly. Probably captain until midway when Sexton's current contract ends in 2021. Rob Kearney has been effectively retired as his central contract ends in June, and he hasn't been selected. Larmour and Addison are the future it would seem.

Of the other 30 plus year olds, Toner gets another crack of the whip because he's got the Heaslip gene and seems to play endless games, performs and does not get tired. And Kleyn and Roux are out injured as options. Toner's central contract also ends in June.

Earls contract runs until 2021, as does Sexton, Healy, POM, Stander and Murray until 2022. Possible Replacements for most of them will come through in the next 12-18 months hopefully from:
1: Porter (shifting to LH), Kilcoyne, McGrath, O'Sullivan, E Byrne
2: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan, Scannell
3. Furlong, O'Toole, Moore, Knox
4. Henderson, Kleyn, Roux, Beirne
5. Ryan, Beirne, Dillane, Baird
6. Ruddock, Deegan, O'Donoghue,
7. Vd Flier, Leavy, Connors, Penny
8. Conan, Doris
9. Cooney, McGrath, Blade, Casey
10: Carbery, R Byrne, H Byrne, J Carty, B Burns
11: Conway, Kearney, Baloucounne,
12: Aki, Henshaw, J O'Brien
13: Ringrose, Farrell, C O'Brien
14: Stockdale, Lowe, S Daly
15: Larmour, Addison, Keenan

The summer tour to Oz (where both IRFU and RA want to add a third test apparently) could be a real trial for some of the up and comers.

I guess that is the problem with central contracts and Farrell is largely stuck with some of these players until their contracts run out even if he wanted to start rebuilding the team sooner rather than later.

The players are not going to retire from international rugby and hence loose their CCs, as it will hit them hard financially.

Anyway, it will all happen through natural wastage I guess.

BigGee wrote:I guess that is the problem with central contracts and Farrell is largely stuck with some of these players until their contracts run out even if he wanted to start rebuilding the team sooner rather than later.

The players are not going to retire from international rugby and hence loose their CCs, as it will hit them hard financially.

Anyway, it will all happen through natural wastage I guess.

Well he needs the year of their availability to transition current support players to being first picks.  It is the consistency of first picks that drives the decision to offer a player a central contract.   Of the last batch, only the following will remain by season end with Kearney, Toner and McGrath’s ending:

Healy, Furlong, Henderson, POM, Stander, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw, Earls.

By June 2021 who would be the first consistent pick with sufficient caps for:
1. Possibly Porter if they plan to switch him across - Lein
2. No one apparent at moment
3. Furlong already has one - Lein
4. Ryan - in line for one - Lein
5. Henderson already has one - Uls
6. No one apparent at moment
7. VdF or Leavy possibly - Lein
8. Conan possibly - Lein
9. Murray until 2022.  So they may extend until RWC 2023. - Mun
10. Carbery possibly- depending on staying injury free - Mun
11. Stockdale - Uls
12. Aki starts next season until 2023 and Henshaw current until 2022 - Con
13. Ringrose - in line for one - Lein
14. No one apparent at moment
15. Larmour will likely get one. Lein

Mr Bounce wrote:Englishman in peace here.

I have to say I am staggered by the appointment of Sexton as Captain.

I think it has become obvious with POM under pressure for his place that Sexton is the only logical pick for captain. It's not ideal that there isn't a more viable option but I don't see who else you go with.

Henderson is captain at Ulster, he isn't 100% sure to start or do the 80 and has openly stated he isn't ready.

Ruddock didn't even make the squad (probably the most hard done by along with McCloskey)

O'Mahoney and Stander are both under severe pressure for their places from the Leinster back rows.

Ryan is too big risk due to his inexperience. It makes sense to have Sexton as an interim then transition in a season or 2.

Generally the squad is a mixed bag or youth, form and experience. Ruddock and Scannell are big omissions, McCloskey is on form the best 12 but I understand why Farrell would have stuck with the 4 centers he has.

I think people should give Farrell a chance and see where things go, I'm still agnostic on whether he is up to it...

theslosty wrote:McCloskey is very hard done by. Scannell is the most surprising exclusion.

But can anyone tell me why Jack Carty is suddenly so out of favour? He seems to be being blamed for the Japan defeat which I find odd given he set up both of our tries. He's still a very talented young-ish 10 and one I'd like to see more of for Ireland.

I just think its case of Burns and Byrne playing better. Clearly Carty is not in great form but I think his omission is as much a reflection of the other fly halves and where Farrell/Catt rate them than on him.

I suspect we may see Cooney and Burns alongside each other at some point in the championship.

I was wondering was Burns and Cooney picked with a view to that being a Test half back pairing. Under Schmidt it felt he was always trying to get new pairing Test minutes to make up for a gap instead of leveraging the fact that they know each other already from the provinces.

Sexton as captain.... for me too much of a moaner. I want the McBride, Johnson, AWJ. Tower over the referee, have presence. Also want a Dayglo, Hill, McCaw, someone who looks innocent, speaks well and moves the referee away from his train of thought when on the verge of a card.

The only benefit of Sexton is that when the ref calls for the captain to give out, he'll have to wait until Sexton gets up after receiving a late hit and that gives time for the camera to switch to him and the tv producer to pull up a replay!

I think just for optics Farrell has gone too Leinster centric and too old. He is pinning his plan on immediate results. If he got Carty and McCloskey around the squad that's two provinces nice and content (let's give our guys time).

It feels like selections to in reaction to the last 12 months rather than the foundation to have a group of core 24-29 year old players available and ready for the next RWC.

I think in fairness to Farrell he has to get results, I think lower than 3rd in the 6N and he's going to come under big pressure right away.

Clearly he has gone for youth and dynamism in some places, particularly Hooker and full back... arguably Back row too.

Apart from leaving out McCloskey, who in my opinion offers more than Aki and Henshaw I think he's gone as far as he can with changes, arguably he's gone to far leaving out Cronin and Scannell.

Sexton for me is not the right man for the captaincy, but at this time he is the only viable option.  I believe he and Farrell are quite close as well off the field, so you can't blame Farrell for going with someone he knows and trusts.

I think the biggest thing it indicates is that O'Mahoney is no longer assured to start, because I think if he is then he is the new captain. It looks to me like they may be considering at Stander at 6 with Doris maybe at 8.

I'm not overly excited by the squad but I'm interested to see how we go in the 6N. Given the fixtures I think we have an outside shot at the title.

All we need to be more competitive and assured...and as a result more confident in our handling and decision making... is for Farrell to keep the rigidly defensive mindset adopted by Schmidt but to simply have designated periods within 80 when we are far less predictable, structured and safe.  We need to have consistent injections of pace available to us - coached and drilled, not just individual players having a shot for the tryline on their own terms as their teammates look bemused and unprepared for their task of offering support lines.  We need to have an effective, ruthless giving-width game when opposition defences look rattled.
If we simply add that more aggressive, pacy and stretching attack TO Schmidt's more dogged grunt game then I'm certain we have the players who can service such a game and we finally create a climate where teams aren't so comfortable turning the screw on us.  
Up to now, we've made it easy for teams.  All too often we ourselves, in the style we used, invited the opposition back into our half and virtually goaded them:  "come on, we'll only defend from here on.  Try to get past us.  Come on!  Come on!"   We gave beaten teams their confidence back by allowing them unapposed attacking periods when we actively Chose to offer nothing in attack.  Teams always knew they'd get a crack at us when we turned fully defensive.  They never expected ruthlessness from a Schmidt team, just grinding pragmatism.
Ruthlessness has to be the new war cry from the Irish team, as I hear it's the chosen word on the lips of Leinster players.  You can't be ruthless for 80 minutes by simply relying on forwards falling over the line.  So if our back play gets a shake up to make us a far greedier outfit in terms of attack, then we'll be quite a handful.  The players are able but they've needed the philosophy - coached.  
It's actually quite exciting to be at this point - not really knowing what Ireland will turn up.  Bad will be just more of the same and therefore no real shock.  Good will be a nice way to start a new era.

Another thing I wonder.

So Schmidt was able to negotiate much more autonomy than previous Irish coaches, who had to have their selection and tactics approved before each game by an IRFU committee before announcing the team - pre DoR of course, the appointment of which was another Schmidt demand.

Tom O'Tooles selection does raise the question how much influence Nucifera has in selection. Farrell certainly wouldn't have the negotiating position Schmidt would have had before accepting the role.

Big Stu added to the Ireland squad.
Hope he gets a fair chance and not just holding tackle bags

Good that Stu got in, he’s a quality player. A lot of the selection seems a bit meh. No Sean Cronin seems like a bad idea. I also agree on what others have said about Sexton being made captain, seems like an odd one given his temperament and injury record - having said that the halfbacks look strong; Murray and Sexton, to be replaced by Cooney and Byrne - Cooney can really help his 10 because his game management and kicking is really good. The new Ladyboys in the back-row are in good form but you’re probably still too reliant on the only 7 (VDF). O’Donogue is a good choice, shocked at how POM still makes the squad though, and ahead of Beirne.