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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 6:43 pm

They were comments by Pivac. Jones has clearly made a false and dangerous accusation, something coaches should refrain from doing. I don’t get how Eddie always seems to get a free ride. If Gatland had done it this place would explode.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your first response guestalt I dont understand. Have you read the rules on the implementation of sanctions?

A response to your second point and I suppose for dummy half also is that without slades intervention a lot changes. Dummy half you could be right in that he could go in differently and wrap arms etc but my supposition would be that he still doesnt wrap but north isnt falling. No arms tackle but not high.

I haven't read them. I have taken my lead from a qualified level 2 referee and then Ben O'Keefe actually explained the directive for everyone to hear which I didn't at the time. What are you struggling with? There are practical directives that aren't written in the laws relating to all manner of decisions however this is very clear. Any contact with the head starts at a red card and must 'work done' so to speak with mitigation. There is now zero mitigation for a non-tackle which is what a shoulder charge with a tucked arm is. Unfortunately you seem mistaken yet confident at the same time. I'm not sure why?

It's probably best to just focus on what actually happened not hypotheticals.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:12 pm

I'm struggling with you not reading and understanding the implementations yourself whereas you're happy to accept the incorrect conclusion of your friend. If you read the link I posted you may understand where several posters are finding their reasoning, especially after you asked for the link.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:16 pm

A level 2 referee isn't just 'a friend'. Why are you so confident that a top referee is wrong? I'd rather you just spelled it out plainly to be frank as you seem to be going round and round in circles without saying anything. You're still yet to say what is 'wrong' and why so I think it's fair to say it's "last chance" for you to do that now otherwise it's probably best to move on and jot it down to post match frustration on your part.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:21 pm

I fell back in love with Weetabix recently.

I've been a toast and black coffee fella in the morning for a long time as I lack appetite when I wake up. Weetabix really does fill you up a lot for what it is though. The secret for me I've found is smaller bowls hence less milk, which I find bloating first thing. Still just enough milk to almost cover the biscuits but never submerge them, I'm not a savage after all.

As I only ever want 3 biscuits at the very most in the morning your average cereal bowl means I end up either having half submerged Weetabix or far too much milk. I found some narrower based but steeper sided bowls* in Oxfam though and they are just brilliant for Weetabix. Fit 3 biscuits snugly in the bottom so that you can almost submerge them without using too much milk.

*Not so narrow and steep sided to feel like I need a crane rather than a spoon to get stuff out the bottom mind. They are just narrower based and steeper sided enough to revolutionise my cereal habits without being so exaggeratedly warped to not be bowl shaped. Having worked as a chef for several years 'bowls' which aren't bowl shaped became something of a trigger for me given that many fine dining establishments seem to think putting average soups in 'bowls' shaped like a funnel constitutes art.

If you're looking for supermarket own brand 'wheat biscuits' I'd suggest Sainsbury's every time as well. Lidl and Tesco have the flavour but simply lack structural integrity once milk hits them. By the time you've sat at the table and taken two spoonfuls you're enduring cold brown porridge rather than bathing in spiritual enlightenment.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:31 pm

I havent posted that hes wrong bar the fact that mitigation can be used to define the punishment. I've backed that up by posting proof from the current interpretation page from the world rugby site. Give it a read guestalt.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:41 pm

The classic, my friends a referee argument.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:50 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The classic, my friends a referee argument.

Yep. It's rather a pointless, vacuous claim until we know what cereal, if any, the ref prefers.
Porridge would probably infer a turgid, humourless personality who might rely too heavily on the concept of cold, immovable rules rather than in-game interpretation.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:55 pm

king_carlos wrote:I fell back in love with Weetabix recently.

I've been a toast and black coffee fella in the morning for a long time as I lack appetite when I wake up. Weetabix really does fill you up a lot for what it is though. The secret for me I've found is smaller bowls hence less milk, which I find bloating first thing. Still just enough milk to almost cover the biscuits but never submerge them, I'm not a savage after all.

As I only ever want 3 biscuits at the very most in the morning your average cereal bowl means I end up either having half submerged Weetabix or far too much milk. I found some narrower based but steeper sided bowls* in Oxfam though and they are just brilliant for Weetabix. Fit 3 biscuits snugly in the bottom so that you can almost submerge them without using too much milk.

*Not so narrow and steep sided to feel like I need a crane rather than a spoon to get stuff out the bottom mind. They are just narrower based and steeper sided enough to revolutionise my cereal habits without being so exaggeratedly warped to not be bowl shaped. Having worked as a chef for several years 'bowls' which aren't bowl shaped became something of a trigger for me given that many fine dining establishments seem to think putting average soups in 'bowls' shaped like a funnel constitutes art.

If you're looking for supermarket own brand 'wheat biscuits' I'd suggest Sainsbury's every time as well. Lidl and Tesco have the flavour but simply lack structural integrity once milk hits them. By the time you've sat at the table and taken two spoonfuls you're enduring cold brown porridge rather than bathing in spiritual enlightenment.

I too used to always be a black coffee and eggs on toast person. Then my partner introduced me to Yorkshire tea and it is the best part of the morning, not a kick in the face like black coffee, but like stepping outside in winter and the crisp chill making you focus.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I havent posted that hes wrong bar the fact that mitigation can be used to define the punishment. I've backed that up by posting proof from the current interpretation page from the world rugby site. Give it a read guestalt.

But it cannot. Ben O'Keefe explained why.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:59 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The classic, my friends a referee argument.

Ha. If it helps, Soulless Rect, I'm a referee, but only level 1 and not a very good (or willing) one at that!

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 7:59 pm

I think the Yorkshire tea harvest is in trouble this year though with all the storms we've had.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 8:01 pm

So you disagree with world rugby on this one guestalt. Ok.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 8:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you disagree with world rugby on this one guestalt. Ok.

No I don't think so. You're disagreeing with one of World Rugby's top referees on the basis of not being able to find a directive (not a law) in the lawbook. Maybe write to them for clarification and then we know where we stand once and for all?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 8:11 pm

We'll leave it there then as if you arent going to read what world rugby say on the issue theres not much point going further.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 8:13 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The classic, my friends a referee argument.

Ha. If it helps, Soulless Rect, I'm a referee, but only level 1 and not a very good (or willing) one at that!

Cat

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 8:15 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The classic, my friends a referee argument.

Friends with benefits?

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll leave it there then as if you arent going to read what world rugby say on the issue theres not much point going further.

I have now read it. The directive is clear in overruling the legitimacy of mitigating circumstances. This is something a Level 2 referee in mid Wales knew so I think it must be fairly common knowledge among those actually responsible for knowing the laws and protocols. You'd best get in touch with World Rugby in all honesty if Ben O'Keefe's ruling isn't good enough for you. Have it from 'the horses mouth'.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:The classic, my friends a referee argument.

Friends with benefits?

To have friends, eh? Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:12 pm

Yeah o'Keefe had a bad day I'd agree. Makings of a decent ref but perhaps a year or 2 off.

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Post by Guest on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:13 pm

Let us know the response from WR.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:24 pm

Just got the email back. They said the interpretation on their site is correct and that you can use mitigation to downgrade the red as it states.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:39 pm

yappysnap wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I fell back in love with Weetabix recently.

I've been a toast and black coffee fella in the morning for a long time as I lack appetite when I wake up. Weetabix really does fill you up a lot for what it is though. The secret for me I've found is smaller bowls hence less milk, which I find bloating first thing. Still just enough milk to almost cover the biscuits but never submerge them, I'm not a savage after all.

As I only ever want 3 biscuits at the very most in the morning your average cereal bowl means I end up either having half submerged Weetabix or far too much milk. I found some narrower based but steeper sided bowls* in Oxfam though and they are just brilliant for Weetabix. Fit 3 biscuits snugly in the bottom so that you can almost submerge them without using too much milk.

*Not so narrow and steep sided to feel like I need a crane rather than a spoon to get stuff out the bottom mind. They are just narrower based and steeper sided enough to revolutionise my cereal habits without being so exaggeratedly warped to not be bowl shaped. Having worked as a chef for several years 'bowls' which aren't bowl shaped became something of a trigger for me given that many fine dining establishments seem to think putting average soups in 'bowls' shaped like a funnel constitutes art.

If you're looking for supermarket own brand 'wheat biscuits' I'd suggest Sainsbury's every time as well. Lidl and Tesco have the flavour but simply lack structural integrity once milk hits them. By the time you've sat at the table and taken two spoonfuls you're enduring cold brown porridge rather than bathing in spiritual enlightenment.

I too used to always be a black coffee and eggs on toast person. Then my partner introduced me to Yorkshire tea and it is the best part of the morning, not a kick in the face like black coffee, but like stepping outside in winter and the crisp chill making you focus.

I am a big tea drinker but it tends to be later in the day. Midday onward tends to be my tea hours. Running a wee cafe now I have the luxury of lots of different herbal teas to try as well but still offer Yorkshire tea alongside different local breakfast teas. It's a crowd-pleaser that's for sure, comforting and familiar.

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Post by quinsforever on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 9:59 pm

i think it's a harsh red. when tuilagi covered, he was doing so thinking he might need to make a try saving tackle, especially if he was used to having Daly to mop up after. so he came in very, very fast.

what happened after, given the brave tackle (with head on wrong side) made by Slade, i think is enough to at least discuss mitigating circumstances, rather then endlessly replay the slowmo trying to find an angle which shows the impact on the head.

that Parkes' hit on Manu didnt at least get cited, given the MAnu red, is absolutely shockingly inconsistent.


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Post by king_carlos on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 10:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:I think the Yorkshire tea harvest is in trouble this year though with all the storms we've had.

A lot of food import-export is in trouble given uncertainty around tariffs and general turmoil in the market. Coronavirus is now having a very real economic effect as well sadly. Stock markets have taken their biggest hit since black Monday in 2008.

Given that Yorkshire Tea is a blend made up about 20 teas at a time those effects will be keenly felt as every single tea they import for batches will see a mark up. Blending Darjeeling, Assam and Ceylon teas to get that depth of flavour is brilliant but also costly. Especially when you trade sustainably as they have for a long time now. I remember planting trees back in the nineties as part of a green initiative run by YT. They've long run partnerships with growers in India, Sri Lanka and Kenya to improve working conditions for all in their supply chain.

Being a cafe owner, my business partners, employees and I are further down that chain. Prices for produce across hospitality are going up though and that's before discussing the fact that it's a hugely understaffed industry that relies heavily on EU immigration for what staffing it has. Being in Edinburgh there's then the rent inflation argument with many independents being priced out by the chains. Rocky times ahead for independents in food service.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 11:19 pm

I hear there was a game of rugby on Saturday. Apparently England won.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 11:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:I think the Yorkshire tea harvest is in trouble this year though with all the storms we've had.

That's sad to hear. It's difficult enough getting it over here as it is.

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 09 Mar 2020, 11:59 pm

king_carlos wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
king_carlos wrote:I fell back in love with Weetabix recently.

I've been a toast and black coffee fella in the morning for a long time as I lack appetite when I wake up. Weetabix really does fill you up a lot for what it is though. The secret for me I've found is smaller bowls hence less milk, which I find bloating first thing. Still just enough milk to almost cover the biscuits but never submerge them, I'm not a savage after all.

As I only ever want 3 biscuits at the very most in the morning your average cereal bowl means I end up either having half submerged Weetabix or far too much milk. I found some narrower based but steeper sided bowls* in Oxfam though and they are just brilliant for Weetabix. Fit 3 biscuits snugly in the bottom so that you can almost submerge them without using too much milk.

*Not so narrow and steep sided to feel like I need a crane rather than a spoon to get stuff out the bottom mind. They are just narrower based and steeper sided enough to revolutionise my cereal habits without being so exaggeratedly warped to not be bowl shaped. Having worked as a chef for several years 'bowls' which aren't bowl shaped became something of a trigger for me given that many fine dining establishments seem to think putting average soups in 'bowls' shaped like a funnel constitutes art.

If you're looking for supermarket own brand 'wheat biscuits' I'd suggest Sainsbury's every time as well. Lidl and Tesco have the flavour but simply lack structural integrity once milk hits them. By the time you've sat at the table and taken two spoonfuls you're enduring cold brown porridge rather than bathing in spiritual enlightenment.

I too used to always be a black coffee and eggs on toast person. Then my partner introduced me to Yorkshire tea and it is the best part of the morning, not a kick in the face like black coffee, but like stepping outside in winter and the crisp chill making you focus.

I am a big tea drinker but it tends to be later in the day. Midday onward tends to be my tea hours. Running a wee cafe now I have the luxury of lots of different herbal teas to try as well but still offer Yorkshire tea alongside different local breakfast teas. It's a crowd-pleaser that's for sure, comforting and familiar.

Finding Yorkshire tea in a cafe is always a pleasant surprise, it's nearly always English Breakfast tea which is its poor cousin.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 12:06 am

king_carlos wrote:

Consistency as always is the issue. Parkes got nothing but Manu saw red. In large part due only to where the tackles happened on the field.
I have no problem with the ref giving Manu a red and not Parkes. He cannot see everything. I have a problem with the TMO not bringing Parkes' actions to the attention of ref and even more bizarrely the citing officer not citing him given that he has hours to watch the replays. The TMO has form given he missed the late shoulder barge on May a couple of weeks ago that should have been a penalty try.

Generally the officiating is very poor and seems to be worse at international level than in the Premiership. If TMOs and citing officers can't get things right then let's save their salaries, speed the game up (God knows it needs it) and just leave it to the ref and accept he cannot see everything and will make mistakes.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 12:12 am

lostinwales wrote:I hear there was a game of rugby on Saturday. Apparently England won.

Do you have a favourite tea lost?

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 12:19 am

yappysnap wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think the Yorkshire tea harvest is in trouble this year though with all the storms we've had.

That's sad to hear. It's difficult enough getting it over here as it is.

YT have so many Brits living abroad ask them about availability that they set-up official partners all over the world to try to make sourcing it easier. When I was last doing a 3 month stint in Auckland with a YT connoisseur from Hull it was Hutchinsons if that helps you at all Yappy!

As for your post about cafes I whole heartedly agree. There are some fantastic breakfast teas if you look local. Currently using Brodies which is an Edinburgh blend. Cracking stuff. Many breakfast teas are abject and chosen solely on the basis of price per serving sadly. Yorkshire Tea is hanging about on our menu that's for sure.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 8:29 am

king_carlos wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I hear there was a game of rugby on Saturday. Apparently England won.

Do you have a favourite tea lost?

Don't drink tea, which is the kind of thing that would have my dad spinning in his grave if he was that kind of person.

Coffee however... An espresso of a nice medium roast made by a barrista who knows their stuff and gives a sh1t is one of the greatest drinks known to man. Finding that combo isn't easy, not least because the kinds of beans that make good caps and lattes tend to be too harsh without milk to smooth the edges

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 8:54 am

As it seems that this 6N is the last time we will see George Kruis in an England shirt, does that mean Lawes will return to lock? If so that would leave space for an Wilson, Underhill, Curry back row. I have always thought Wilson a very good player, but never realised just foe good he actually was. His industry and selfless play with the likes of Underhill and Curry's work rate and skill set, plus Lawes and Itoje's ability to emulate a 6 at international level and still do the 2nd row jobs means we would have a defense like no other side. That whole back five regularly make 20 tackles a game and the front row are no tackle slouches either.

Their ability to also "truck it up" with Sinkler and probably Genge means the whole pack is adapt at making the hard yards, plus all can play like backs when they need to.

There was an article by Christian Day, now Chairman of the PRPA about Lawes. Day who knows him pretty well, says that Lawes still has 5 or 6 years at the top left in him, he might look like he is held together with string and sticky plaster but behind that he is an immense athlete who still has all his core attributes and is actually in good shape. Based on Lawes being around for a while, I cannot see anyone else pushing him for his England shirt with Kruis off to Japan, there are a number like Kpoku coming through, but they are more Itoje style players. Nick Isiekwe might fit the bill but he has a way to go yet.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 1:07 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:As it seems that this 6N is the last time we will see George Kruis in an England shirt, does that mean Lawes will return to lock? If so that would leave space for an Wilson, Underhill, Curry back row. I have always thought Wilson a very good player, but never realised just foe good he actually was. His industry and selfless play with the likes of Underhill and Curry's work rate and skill set, plus Lawes and Itoje's ability to emulate a 6 at international level and still do the 2nd row jobs means we would have a defense like no other side. That whole back five regularly make 20 tackles a game and the front row are no tackle slouches either.

Their ability to also "truck it up" with Sinkler and probably Genge means the whole pack is adapt at making the hard yards, plus all can play like backs when they need to.

There was an article by Christian Day, now Chairman of the PRPA about Lawes. Day who knows him pretty well, says that Lawes still has 5 or 6 years at the top left in him, he might look like he is held together with string and sticky plaster but behind that he is an immense athlete who still has all his core attributes and is actually in good shape. Based on Lawes being around for a while, I cannot see anyone else pushing him for his England shirt with Kruis off to Japan, there are a number like Kpoku coming through, but they are more Itoje style players. Nick Isiekwe might fit the bill but he has a way to go yet.

Wilson is very good, properly versatile and sets a standard for the up and coming players to aspire to. The question in my mind is will he be around for the next RWC?

Surely Launchbury will go back to 1st choice? Would be good to see another young player push for a place in the 2nd row but I don't think that player is Ewell.

Be fun if Kpoku's twin brother got his act together. We could end up with Kpoku x 2 at lock and Curry x 2 on the flanks, and confuse the hell out of everyone.

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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 1:12 pm

https://rugbyonslaught.com/sickening-footage-reveals-english-players-were-being-physically-targeted-by-welsh-in-six-nations/

vomit

Some sicking hits, shocking footage
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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 1:22 pm

lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:As it seems that this 6N is the last time we will see George Kruis in an England shirt, does that mean Lawes will return to lock? If so that would leave space for an Wilson, Underhill, Curry back row. I have always thought Wilson a very good player, but never realised just foe good he actually was. His industry and selfless play with the likes of Underhill and Curry's work rate and skill set, plus Lawes and Itoje's ability to emulate a 6 at international level and still do the 2nd row jobs means we would have a defense like no other side. That whole back five regularly make 20 tackles a game and the front row are no tackle slouches either.

Their ability to also "truck it up" with Sinkler and probably Genge means the whole pack is adapt at making the hard yards, plus all can play like backs when they need to.

There was an article by Christian Day, now Chairman of the PRPA about Lawes. Day who knows him pretty well, says that Lawes still has 5 or 6 years at the top left in him, he might look like he is held together with string and sticky plaster but behind that he is an immense athlete who still has all his core attributes and is actually in good shape. Based on Lawes being around for a while, I cannot see anyone else pushing him for his England shirt with Kruis off to Japan, there are a number like Kpoku coming through, but they are more Itoje style players. Nick Isiekwe might fit the bill but he has a way to go yet.

Wilson is very good, properly versatile and sets a standard for the up and coming players to aspire to. The question in my mind is will he be around for the next RWC?  

Surely Launchbury will go back to 1st choice? Would be good to see another young player push for a place in the 2nd row but I don't think that player is Ewell.

Be fun if Kpoku's twin brother got his act together. We could end up with Kpoku x 2 at lock and Curry x 2 on the flanks, and confuse the hell out of everyone.

Wasn't too aware of Wilson before the call up but have to say he's a major upgrade on Robshaw (more physical carrying and tackling plus being far better over the ball), so much so that I don't understand how one has 66 caps and the other just 17. Has he only been playing at this level for a few years now? From what Geordie has been saying for a long while on here now I doubt that to be true.

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Post by dummy_half on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 1:40 pm

Soul

I think you kind of answered your own question - Wilson played really well in a generally poor Newcastle team, so a long way from the media spotlight. Robshaw played very well for a team across the road from Twickenham...

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:As it seems that this 6N is the last time we will see George Kruis in an England shirt, does that mean Lawes will return to lock? If so that would leave space for an Wilson, Underhill, Curry back row. I have always thought Wilson a very good player, but never realised just foe good he actually was. His industry and selfless play with the likes of Underhill and Curry's work rate and skill set, plus Lawes and Itoje's ability to emulate a 6 at international level and still do the 2nd row jobs means we would have a defense like no other side. That whole back five regularly make 20 tackles a game and the front row are no tackle slouches either.

Their ability to also "truck it up" with Sinkler and probably Genge means the whole pack is adapt at making the hard yards, plus all can play like backs when they need to.

There was an article by Christian Day, now Chairman of the PRPA about Lawes. Day who knows him pretty well, says that Lawes still has 5 or 6 years at the top left in him, he might look like he is held together with string and sticky plaster but behind that he is an immense athlete who still has all his core attributes and is actually in good shape. Based on Lawes being around for a while, I cannot see anyone else pushing him for his England shirt with Kruis off to Japan, there are a number like Kpoku coming through, but they are more Itoje style players. Nick Isiekwe might fit the bill but he has a way to go yet.

Wilson is very good, properly versatile and sets a standard for the up and coming players to aspire to. The question in my mind is will he be around for the next RWC?  

Surely Launchbury will go back to 1st choice? Would be good to see another young player push for a place in the 2nd row but I don't think that player is Ewell.

Be fun if Kpoku's twin brother got his act together. We could end up with Kpoku x 2 at lock and Curry x 2 on the flanks, and confuse the hell out of everyone.

Not sure Launchbury has ever been first choice, when he was picked it was with Lawes, he is competing against Itoje really. Lawes has bee the first choice lock for the past 6 or 7 years, if not more. Johnson preferred him, as did Lancaster and now EJ want shim in the side even if it is at 6, even Gatland wanted him in the side to replace Gods his god son AWJ at half time. It is only since Itoje's arrival that he has had serious competition and they have usually ended up playing alongside each other.

Wilson is only 30 and due to a lack of International recognition in his earlier years probably nowhere near as broken as most 30 year olds. I have to hand it to GF, he was saying Wilson should have been in the squad years before he was and he was probably right.

It would be a neat trick swapping the Currys at half time, each do one half, they are so alike that I doubt anyone would notice if the replacement one wore the dirty kit. Instructions, go out there and cause 40 minutes of mayhem knowing they didn't have to worry about keeping anything in reserve for the second half.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:13 pm

TightHEAD wrote:https://rugbyonslaught.com/sickening-footage-reveals-english-players-were-being-physically-targeted-by-welsh-in-six-nations/

vomit

Some sicking hits, shocking footage

It certainly requires and explanation from the officials as it was under the nose of the assistant referee, there was the role, then the elbow followed by a kick as he was getting up, as this was all over the internet along with the Manu shoulder to the head, the citing officer cannot say he missed it. He would have to have been blind to miss the Manu head tackle by Parkes, perhaps he was cleaning his glasses as he seemed to see all the English misdemeanours, even one from Lawes that nobody I have spoken to saw. It does not however explain why he has not taken note of the media footage.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:27 pm

I have a preference for launchbury by a country mile over lawes as a first note but I dont think the suggestion that lawes has been a choice over launchbury is too true when they've both been fit. Lawes was capped 3 years prior to launchbury and has clocked 20 caps more than him to date. Lawes is just a bit underpowered against the best for me at lock and too cumbersome and slow to be a brilliant 6. If we're still talking of him and wilson in 6 months let alone 12 months in the back row it's a poor reflection of Jones integration of the younger set of players coming through.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:32 pm

There is a risk if we dont have a summer tour though we're put back in development until the lions tour.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:46 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:https://rugbyonslaught.com/sickening-footage-reveals-english-players-were-being-physically-targeted-by-welsh-in-six-nations/

vomit

Some sicking hits, shocking footage

It certainly requires and explanation from the officials as it was under the nose of the assistant referee, there was the role, then the elbow followed by a kick as he was getting up, as this was all over the internet along with the Manu shoulder to the head, the citing officer cannot say he missed it. He would have to have been blind to miss the Manu head tackle by Parkes, perhaps he was cleaning his glasses as he seemed to see all the English misdemeanours, even one from Lawes that nobody I have spoken to saw. It does not however explain why he has not taken note of the media footage.

There was a stoppage in the first 6 minutes when England were awarded a scrum but the TMO had the referee reverse his decision something that wouldn't have happened had May not been concussed.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 3:57 pm

Lawes is clearly an integral part of the squad and I don't see that changing following his outstanding performances this Six Nations. His perceived weakness is offering less scrummaging behind the tighthead than Kruis, who is exceptional in the set-piece. If Kruis does indeed move over to Japan then he will no longer be part of that discussion though sadly. I hope that Kpoku can be his natural successor in that regard. He's 20 stone but capable of running the dominant Sarries line-out, very impressive.

Jones taking the Springbok 'bomb squad' idea with the 6-2 split on the bench will hopefully make it easier to work guys like Zach Mercer, Joel Kpoku and Ted Hill into the 23. Those three in particular I hope get chances as they offer different strengths to current options in their respective positions.

It naturally makes it more difficult in the backs. I can see Ollie Lawrence and Joe Marchant coming into the training squads at centre though.

Daly has become such a vital part of Jones attacking game plan that where he ends up long term may dictate the rate at which those centres come through. If he moves back into the midfield then we will more likely see different fullbacks getting game time (whether that's Furbank, Mallinder, Nowell, Watson, etc) than centres.

Whilst he has weaknesses under the high ball Daly has become vital to the England attack. He almost acts as the hinge in the structure when England do go wide. So often it's Daly receiving the ball as the penultimate runner, hence decision maker in an overlap. Finishing those chances is something England were dire at under Lancaster and having Daly as a distributor in the wide channels has changed the standard of finishing.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 4:26 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:https://rugbyonslaught.com/sickening-footage-reveals-english-players-were-being-physically-targeted-by-welsh-in-six-nations/

Ok so we can blame May for getting con used just like we did that time he got a broken nose Whistle

vomit

Some sicking hits, shocking footage

It certainly requires and explanation from the officials as it was under the nose of the assistant referee, there was the role, then the elbow followed by a kick as he was getting up, as this was all over the internet along with the Manu shoulder to the head, the citing officer cannot say he missed it. He would have to have been blind to miss the Manu head tackle by Parkes, perhaps he was cleaning his glasses as he seemed to see all the English misdemeanours, even one from Lawes that nobody I have spoken to saw. It does not however explain why he has not taken note of the media footage.

There was a stoppage in the first 6 minutes when England were awarded a scrum but the TMO had the referee reverse his decision something that wouldn't have happened had May not been concussed.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 4:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have a preference for launchbury by a country mile over lawes as a first note but I dont think the suggestion that lawes has been a choice over launchbury is too true when they've both been fit. Lawes was capped 3 years prior to launchbury and has clocked 20 caps more than him to date. Lawes is just a bit underpowered against the best for me at lock and too cumbersome and slow to be a brilliant 6. If we're still talking of him and wilson in 6 months let alone 12 months in the back row it's a poor reflection of Jones integration of the younger set of players coming through.

I think we have always disagreed on this subject, you see Lawes as underpowered in the scrum, I see Launchbury as a bit lumbering and unable to do the work Lawes does unless it is close to the breakdown. Lawes 3 or 4 years ago may have been a bit lightweight compared to Launchbury, he is still not as heavy but at 18+ stone he has enough power, see how he makes ground through the tackle these days, Launchbury for all his weight does not do it as often.

In addition, the lineout is more important than the scrum in my opinion, there are twice as many lineouts in a match than there are scrums, also scrums can be a lottery these days, as no ref understands what is happening in the front row and those boys are cannier than they look and milk refs for fun. Lawes is far superior in the lineout and his partnership with Itoje is first class, looks better than his club mates.

I suspect that should the Kpoku brothers come knocking on the squad door, it will be Launchbury that drops out just due to Lawes being a one off, there isn't really another player of his type at this level and he brings something different as well as doing all the basics very well.

I know you will disagree 7 1/2, but we all see different things in different players. In the end we have no say in who gets selected and whoever does will have messed it up in one of our eyes.

thumbsup Ale Ale

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 5:01 pm

Taking lineouts yes. Defensive lineouts launchbury. But yes sometimes it would be easier to support another team with far fewer quality players.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 5:16 pm

I know many are uneasy with the 6-2 bench split but I really like it given England's strengths, it could likely see Launchbury and Lawes have a place in the 23.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Mercer
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Daly

16.Cowan-Dickie 17.Vunipola 18.Stuart 19.Ewels 20.Launchbury 21.Wilson 22.Heinz 23.Ford

I expect that Jones is moving towards something like that. Hill and Earl are clearly part of the discussion in the back row. Ewels may well have been picked this season in anticipation of Kruis moving on. I think Kruis is a player that many will only miss once he's gone.

If Kruis moves away to Japan then spending next season in the Championship could effect Kpoku's chances. Potential opportunity for players like Alex Moon and Jonny Hill to get game time.

Mercer I think will get opportunities for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the obvious one that Jones selected him very young and capped him early, so clearly rates him. Secondly, because he offers a line-out option in the back row which Jones has also favoured since moving on from Robshaw and Haskell. Curry being trained up in that regard and Lawes at 6 have been consistent targets at the line-out.

I think we will slowly see new scrum-halves come through as well. The Maunder brothers are highly rated, Alex Mitchell has trained with the squad, Harry Randall and Andy Uren are impressing with Bristol, Ben White was picked against the Baabaas.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 6:01 pm

I cannot see anyone dropping the Ford / Farrell combo in the near future, Farrell and Manu at 12 would need to have another playmaker at 15, Daly is not up to the standard for and international in this role. Most agree that our best back three are Watson, May and Daly in whatever order, none of them offers that choice. Farrell is not a true play making 10 like Ford, so you would need Slade to do that from 13, not easy and if he and Manu swop it sort of telegraphs that something is on.

I would still prefer Wilson at 8 to Mercer, we still need his grunt. Perhaps Mercer as a replacement, but then I would prefer Simmons to Mercer.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 9:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taking lineouts yes. Defensive lineouts launchbury. But yes sometimes it would be easier to support another team with far fewer quality players.

I got the impression that Launchbury was dropped because he wasn't good enough at the set pieces to warrant selection. Itoje is a great all rounder, Kruis is excellent at lineout and scrum but not a patch on Launchbury in the loose, Lawes is the lineout leader for Saints and Ewels whilst rubbish is supposed to be good at scrum and lineout. All seem to have jumped Launchbury in the pecking order. It probably doesn't help Launchbury that he plays for a club with an average lineout and a poor scrum.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 10 Mar 2020, 9:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:I know many are uneasy with the 6-2 bench split .

Not as uneasy as I am with the suggestion that Farrell goes back to playing flyhalf at international level. He doesn't have the playmaking ability nor the temperament I want to see in an international flyhalf.

I'd quite like to see Slade given another go at 15 personally.

Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Manu, Nowell, Slade is what I'd like to see. Plenty of pace and a bit more physicality than we see normally.

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