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France vs England - Match Thread

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 30 Jan 2020, 1:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Recent Form

France:
20th October 2019: Wales - Lost 19-20
6th Ocober 2019: Tonga - Won 23-21
2nd October 2019: USA - Won 33-9
21st September 2019: Argentina - Won 23-21
30th August 2019: Italy - Won 47-19



England
2nd November 2019: South Africa - Lost 12-32
26th October 2019: New Zealand: Won 19:7
19th October 2019: Australia - won 40-16
5th October 2019: Argentina - Won 39-10
26th September 2019: USA - Won 45-7


Head to Head

Matches Played - 90
Wins - England 49, France 34
Draws - 7
Tries - England 165, France 143



Teams

France:
France vs England - Match Thread - Page 2 9k=

Bouthier; Thomas, Vakatawa, Fickou, Penaud; Ntamack, Dupont; Baille, Marchand, Haouas, Le Roux, Willemse, Cros, Ollivon (c), Alldritt

Reps: Mauvaka, Poirot, Bamba, Palu, Woki, Serin, Jalibert, Rattez


England
France vs England - Match Thread - Page 2 2Q==

Furbank; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Daly; Ford, B Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Devoto, Joseph


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Post by RDW on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:22 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RDW wrote:What's he doing with that back row? Lawes isn't an international 6, Curry isn't an international 8....

miaow is that you? Headscratch

?

It's hardly a unique opinion to have...

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:23 am

B91212 wrote:
whocares wrote:- one ex con starting at TH (think he was still under court supervision / probation last week)
First I've heard of this. Maybe England should start with Marler at LH to mercilessly remind him of the fact for the first 50 minutes Wink

Because Genge is such a quiet and reserved player on the pitch?

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Post by RDW on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

Out of interest have there been any interviews with EJ discussing why he's not picked any No8s in the squad?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

I'm expecting France to be fairly incoherent early in the tournament due to so many changes, the back row wouldn't be ideal against Wales or Ireland but should be ok this weekend.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:31 am

RDW wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RDW wrote:What's he doing with that back row? Lawes isn't an international 6, Curry isn't an international 8....

miaow is that you? Headscratch

?

It's hardly a unique opinion to have...

Of course, but just wondering how you've come to the conclusion that these international players aren't internationals at 6 and 8? That opinion seems iffy, like someone else's... Imagine if our selectors listened to the opinions of some of our fans. We'd never have seen Navidi capped, and he's gone on to become a successful 6, 7, & 8! Wink - same point of view was held for Wainwright, Hill, Moriarty, North, Patchell, etc. All of them have played in multiple positions successfully.

Personally I would have put Itoje at 6, but Maro could be in the back-row come scrum time like he was before.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:32 am

RDW wrote:Out of interest have there been any interviews with EJ discussing why he's not picked any No8s in the squad?

Fetchers are the way forward. France didn't get the memo.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:41 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
RDW wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
RDW wrote:What's he doing with that back row? Lawes isn't an international 6, Curry isn't an international 8....

miaow is that you? Headscratch

?

It's hardly a unique opinion to have...

Of course, but just wondering how you've come to the conclusion that these international players aren't internationals at 6 and 8? That opinion seems iffy, like someone else's... Imagine if our selectors listened to the opinions of some of our fans. We'd never have seen Navidi capped, and he's gone on to become a successful 6, 7, & 8! Wink - same point of view was held for Wainwright, Hill, Moriarty, North, Patchell, etc. All of them have played in multiple positions successfully.

Personally I would have put Itoje at 6, but Maro could be in the back-row come scrum time like he was before.

When they did this before Lawes was nominally the lock and Itoje at 6, but Itoje went into the scrums at lock as by Lawes admission Itoje is stronger.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:48 am

Yeah it was a bit of a disguised move by EJ, he knew all the chat (similar to what we're having now!) if Lawes was named at 6, whereas many thought Itoje could easily play there. Other than their position in the scrum, they weren't really playing separate roles at all around the park

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:49 am

Yeah that was it. Both are good lineout options too, right?

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Post by BamBam on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:54 am

Yep, very good jumpers. Who is likely to be the line out caller? I think I'm right in saying it was Itoje at the RWC, but Ewels is meant to be good in that area too

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 11:58 am

It looks a nicely balanced team tbh. Happy furbank starts as ever with the newbies it may take a little while to bed in fully but it's a positive pick rather than one tinged by fear. I guess the pack reflects where proudfoot would like to take things.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:10 pm

Does this mean that Kruis is off to France or Japan, it is the first time I can remember him being dropped out of a matchday 23?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does this mean that Kruis is off to France or Japan, it is the first time I can remember him being dropped out of a matchday 23?

He is in the 23 man squad though.

He has been left out a few times by Eddie over the last four years.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

Hes on the bench.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah that was it. Both are good lineout options too, right?

Lawes is 6'7'' and not super heavy. Itoje is shorter (6'4'' ?) but has an insane standing jump which means he sometimes outjumps players being lifted.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes on the bench.

So I see the lineup I saw was XV only and spoke of Kruis being left out so I assumed.........................

Lawes is over 18 stone these days and it shows. He now makes the yards that he couldn't before in the hard grinding stuff and the Saints scrummage is certainly stronger when he is playing.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah that was it. Both are good lineout options too, right?

Lawes is 6'7'' and not super heavy. Itoje is shorter (6'4'' ?) but has an insane standing jump which means he sometimes outjumps players being lifted.

Not sure, I thought Itoje was 6'6". If you're below 6'5" then it's probably too small at this level, especially seeing as the SA locks are almost reaching 6'10" every year. I base it on him looking the same height as AWJ, who looks the same height as Shingler, Ball and Davies - each billed at that height.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:33 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah that was it. Both are good lineout options too, right?

Lawes is 6'7'' and not super heavy. Itoje is shorter (6'4'' ?) but has an insane standing jump which means he sometimes outjumps players being lifted.

Not sure, I thought Itoje was 6'6". If you're below 6'5" then it's probably too small at this level, especially seeing as the SA locks are almost reaching 6'10" every year. I base it on him looking the same height as AWJ, who looks the same height as Shingler, Ball and Davies - each billed at that height.

He's listed at 1.95m on wiki and by the RFU. I know he's short by modern 2nd row standards but would bet his arm span is greater and he's certainly not overmatched by other 2nd row giants.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:35 pm

May well be true for his club WPI.

On a side note amid the rampant xenophobia of the bbc site we have reference to Farrell not being a nice person to the supporters abs howells knock ons. No mention of noses now.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:May well be true for his club WPI.

On a side note amid the rampant xenophobia of the bbc site we have reference to Farrell not being a nice person to the supporters abs howells knock ons. No mention of noses now.

Beshocked?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:40 pm

Yup. Should say nowells knock on as well. Hes in full flow following the saracens incident.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:42 pm

Itoje is officially 6'5", but has a joint venture with Nigel Wray that adds an extra 2"
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Post by Mr Bounce on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:42 pm

Pleased for Ewels and excited to see Furbank starting. I too am not sure on that back row, but Curry went to 8 in a couple of games in the RWC and did a job (mainly his job as a flanker packing down at 8, but a job nevertheless) and I doubt he will let anyone down.

I am guessing that now Eddie's found his 15, Daly won't have to play there anymore and get embarrassed??

And am glad that Marler has been given the nod over Vunipola. For all his around park carrying and offloading, he's not a great scrummager by international standards. I think Marler and Genge have a specific role: destroy in the set piece!!

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:45 pm

Poorfour wrote:Itoje is officially 6'5", but has a joint venture with Nigel Wray that adds an extra 2"

The man can certainly jump though, surprised the NBA hadn’t made him an offer

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:56 pm

I hope we see the baby rhino come on, boss the scrums and rampage in the loose - that it would upset Stephen Jones (journo not coach) would add extra joy.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 12:58 pm

Not read jones in a long time. What's his beef with the rhino? Quality player and I'm glad we've gone back to these 2 props. Also looking forward to Stuart's cameo (no cooper wooley though).

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 1:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:May well be true for his club WPI.

On a side note amid the rampant xenophobia of the bbc site we have reference to Farrell not being a nice person to the supporters abs howells knock ons. No mention of noses now.

Beshocked?

The HYS on Beeb is certainly lively. And ignorant.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 1:01 pm

If you haven't seen it there is a nice interview with Marler on the beeb. Seems he feels there is unfinished business with no trophies yet. I liked his comments about Proudfoot

Matt Proudfoot, who helped mastermind the Springboks win that day, has switched camps after being recruited as England's new forwards coach.

"I remember an exchange me and him had after the final as we were walking around and letting it all soak in. He walked up, we congratulated him but gave him a bit of stick as well," remembers Marler.

"I didn't think we would remember that, but he said 'you gave me a bit of a lip at the end there didn't you Joe? You were hoping I forgot that?'

"I said, 'I was hoping you would when you were announced as forwards coach!'"

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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 1:58 pm

By my reckoning France will have a 9lb a man advantage in the pack - admittedly mostly in the second row and mostly thanks to Willemse - and just over 1" height advantage. And after the World Cup final I think a few teams will fancy having a go at England in the scrums. It will be interesting to see how Ewels stands up as he is the lightest of the 5 locks on the pitch.

The battle of the backs should also be interesting as matt Dawson was singing the praises of this French lineup, with the only question mark being around Ntamack. Looking at England's lineup I am feeling a lot less confident about the result now than I was. Plus France will no doubt be desperate to put one over us because of Brexit.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 2:00 pm

nlpnlp wrote:By my reckoning France will have a 9lb a man advantage in the pack - admittedly mostly in the second row and mostly thanks to Willemse - and just over 1" height advantage.  And after the World Cup final I think a few teams will fancy having a go at England in the scrums.  It will be interesting to see how Ewels stands up as he is the lightest of the 5 locks on the pitch.

The battle of the backs should also be interesting as matt Dawson was singing the praises of this French lineup, with the only question mark being around Ntamack.  Looking at England's lineup I am feeling a lot less confident about the result now than I was.  Plus France will no doubt be desperate to put one over us because of Brexit.

I highly doubt that, there isn't another team who can replicate that South African tight five.

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Post by BamBam on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 2:02 pm

Every time I read a rugby HYS on the Beeb I suddenly think this place isn't that bad.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 2:04 pm

I was hoping they'd take it easy as they felt sorry for us re brexit Sad

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 2:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was hoping they'd take it easy as they felt sorry for us re brexit Sad

I am sure their SA and Fijian players really give a stuff about Brexit.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 2:26 pm

nlpnlp wrote:By my reckoning France will have a 9lb a man advantage in the pack - admittedly mostly in the second row and mostly thanks to Willemse - and just over 1" height advantage.  And after the World Cup final I think a few teams will fancy having a go at England in the scrums.  It will be interesting to see how Ewels stands up as he is the lightest of the 5 locks on the pitch.

The battle of the backs should also be interesting as matt Dawson was singing the praises of this French lineup, with the only question mark being around Ntamack.  Looking at England's lineup I am feeling a lot less confident about the result now than I was.  Plus France will no doubt be desperate to put one over us because of Brexit.

I am old enough that I was brought up with both metric and imperial. Because of this stone make sense and I find it easier to relate to 6'4'' than 1.95m, but , especially as an engineer and someone who used to write mathematical software, I do find mention of pounds strange and imperial units in general archaic.

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Post by B91212 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 3:06 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
B91212 wrote:
whocares wrote:- one ex con starting at TH (think he was still under court supervision / probation last week)
First I've heard of this. Maybe England should start with Marler at LH to mercilessly remind him of the fact for the first 50 minutes Wink

Because Genge is such a quiet and reserved player on the pitch?
He most certainly is Wink. In my defense I posted that tongue-in-cheek comment the evening before the 23 were announced and expected the 2 LH's to be Marler and Mako.

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Post by B91212 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 3:16 pm

lostinwales wrote:I am old enough that I was brought up with both metric and imperial. Because of this stone make sense and I find it easier to relate to 6'4'' than 1.95m, but , especially as an engineer and someone who used to write mathematical software, I do find mention of pounds strange and imperial units in general archaic.
I thought imperial units were archaic and somewhat backward when I first moved out here and had to learn them. After 12+ years of dealing with them daily my views haven't changed.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 3:18 pm

B91212 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I am old enough that I was brought up with both metric and imperial. Because of this stone make sense and I find it easier to relate to 6'4'' than 1.95m, but , especially as an engineer and someone who used to write mathematical software, I do find mention of pounds strange and imperial units in general archaic.
I thought imperial units were archaic and somewhat backward when I first moved out here and had to learn them. After 12+ years of dealing with them daily my views haven't changed.

I thought Canada had more sense. I spent far too much time teaching my software to translate backwards and forwards between 'American' and SI.

Occasionally you end up with mixed units, like grams per square yard. Insane.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 3:44 pm

nlpnlp wrote:By my reckoning France will have a 9lb a man advantage in the pack - admittedly mostly in the second row and mostly thanks to Willemse - and just over 1" height advantage.  And after the World Cup final I think a few teams will fancy having a go at England in the scrums.  It will be interesting to see how Ewels stands up as he is the lightest of the 5 locks on the pitch.

The battle of the backs should also be interesting as matt Dawson was singing the praises of this French lineup, with the only question mark being around Ntamack.  Looking at England's lineup I am feeling a lot less confident about the result now than I was.  Plus France will no doubt be desperate to put one over us because of Brexit.

England’s scrum only ended up getting battered in the WC final because of the early injury to Sinckler, with Cole being a huge drop off in quality and having to play practically the whole game.

Would agree that this should be a tight game, though. I make England very narrow favourites - the first twenty minutes could well decide it.

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Post by B91212 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 4:34 pm

lostinwales wrote:I thought Canada had more sense. I spent far too much time teaching my software to translate backwards and forwards between 'American' and SI.

Occasionally you end up with mixed units, like grams per square yard. Insane.
Quality. I've come across ml/ in2 before. When they start talking about 'x'-thou of an inch here at work my eyes become glazed over.

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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 4:40 pm

Without wishing to in any way stereotype our good friends the French, I think if England can come out with a fast start as they did on a number of occasions in the world cup, then the French could quite easily get demoralised and throw in la serviette.  Likewise if France get on a role, I have visions of Cardiff 2013 and a makeshift England no 8 getting steamrollered..

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Post by BigGee on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 4:48 pm

I think the French may well be a bit of a handful on sunday. England are a little bit underpowered by their own standards missing both Vinapolo's and this is a new French side, not really carrying the kind of baggage that recent ones have had to deal with.

If France stay in the game then I think they might well win, England need to get away from them and early on.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 4:54 pm

nlpnlp wrote:Without wishing to in any way stereotype our good friends the French, I think if England can come out with a fast start as they did on a number of occasions in the world cup, then the French could quite easily get demoralised and throw in la serviette.  Likewise if France get on a role, I have visions of Cardiff 2013 and a makeshift England no 8 getting steamrollered..

Again Tom Curry is not Tom Wood, he's not taken a single backward step during his international career so far.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 5:04 pm

Curry is the real deal.

What we don't have is someone to reliably truck the ball up like we are used to. I guess it means more work for Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes and George, and more shifting of the point of attack (so more kicking...)

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Post by tazfalklands on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 5:10 pm

I think Eddies idea with the back row is that George Ford will be getting fast ball, to thrive on. And the French will be getting ball at a snails place, with 3 opensides taking it in turn to hit the rucks and chop down players. At which point the French will have to kick long and let the dynamic back 3 and Tuilagi run it back at them.

Unfortunately the French may not stick to Eddies game plan.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 5:10 pm

To be fair underhill and curry are bother rather good at trucking the ball now. I hear lawes is good to so I hope to see plenty this sunday without the knock ons or getting stripped by backs!

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 5:16 pm

Ok odd selection.

But i guess we finally get a real good look at Ewells in the engine room.
Curry and Underhill will do their thing as will Lawes.

The heavy duty carrying will have to be shared around the pack...

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 7:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:By my reckoning France will have a 9lb a man advantage in the pack - admittedly mostly in the second row and mostly thanks to Willemse - and just over 1" height advantage.  And after the World Cup final I think a few teams will fancy having a go at England in the scrums.  It will be interesting to see how Ewels stands up as he is the lightest of the 5 locks on the pitch.

The battle of the backs should also be interesting as matt Dawson was singing the praises of this French lineup, with the only question mark being around Ntamack.  Looking at England's lineup I am feeling a lot less confident about the result now than I was.  Plus France will no doubt be desperate to put one over us because of Brexit.

England’s scrum only ended up getting battered in the WC final because of the early injury to Sinckler, with Cole being a huge drop off in quality and having to play practically the whole game.

Would agree that this should be a tight game, though. I make England very narrow favourites - the first twenty minutes could well decide it.

England also got much more change from the scrum once Marler and Kruis came on. If it had been me, I'd have started both of them against that Saffer pack. Interesting to see how they go with Ewels, but Marler has been in excellent form and I think Sinckler has a whole unplayed RWC Final to get out of his system.
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Post by majesticimperialman on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 7:31 pm

Looking forward to seeing how Furbank goes at full back...is he in the same mold as Mike Brown, Elliot Daily? 

First game of the 6ns is all ways the toughest in my opinion. Both team's a bit ring rusty, new players coming in for there fist start at international rugby. Can these guys step up? is it a step too far?

Still with France you never know what team will turn up on the day.

England sticking with Ford/Farrell/Tualagi give me the belief that England are going with what works best for England in theses tough game's. And EJ is not taking France with a pinch of salt.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 9:12 pm

From what little I have seen of him, Furbank looks like a real fullback. He can take a high ball, and his positioning is instinctively that of a fullback. International rugby will up the pressure on him, but if he can adapt to that, I think he may be the missing piece of the jigsaw.

There could be an interesting battle between the tyro outside backs when he comes up against Louis Rees-Zammit...
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 31 Jan 2020, 9:37 pm

So has Eddie accepted that Daly is not the full back.

And is Ewel a bruiser?

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