F1 2020 Season

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start this thread since no-one else has yet.

First glimpse of this season's cars as Haas unveil their entry for this year. Not really much difference visually from last season, but then there haven't been any major rule changes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51405017




Have to say I quite like this livery.

Feel free to add more pics as they are released...

It's gonna be worse for Ferrari at Monza. They might legitimately be the worst car when everyone strips off the downforce

GSC wrote:Albon running out of time at RB you'd think.

I’m still convinced the Perez/Vettel delay is because of the Albon situation. Think both have their eye on the situation, as the door is simply not closed on that seat, given how poor Albon is performing. Even Hamilton in the post race interview, is slating Albon, and saying RB have only one man to fight with. Doesn’t make sense for RB to continue down this road.

Any of them or Hulk would make sense. Don't see much point in putting Gasly back in the #2 car, nothing has really changed since last time. Seems to be really the insurance to Max leaving as much as anything. They need a #2 they can leave alone to do the job because they keep failing to manage guys who need developing

Wolff went in on Ferrari early today obviously pointing at Binotto’s ineptitude. Hamilton has also been banging the Vettel drum these last few races.

Red Bull, especially Marko, aren’t stupid Vettel vs Albon is a no brainer. Vettel is one of their own so it’s keeps the academy relevant.

They’ve snubbed Hulkenberg so Perez isn’t getting that seat.

Kvyat is likely to be axed as well.

What are people's thoughts on Pierre Gasly as things stand now?

There was a reason for Red Bull to promote him and there was a reason for them to drop him.

The question is how much better is Pierre Gasly now compared to the end of 2018 when Red Bull decided to first promote him?

The main issue seems to be the drivability of the Red Bull compared to the AlphaTauri.   It seems the AlphaTauri is easier to drive but has less ultimate pace, while the drivability of the Red Bull is harder but has much greater ultimate pace.

If Red Bull are unhappy with the pace of Albon's development can't they put Gasly in the Red Bull on their own track in Austria and have a sort of shootout to see if Gasly has improved enough for their satisfaction?  Since all testing is limited in terms of current cars and parts, could this be done with the 2019 Red Bull for example?

Of course putting someone experienced into the second seat could be a solution, presumably dropping Albon back to AlphaTauri and dropping Kvyat from AlphaTauri.

Vettel seems nailed on to be joining Racing Point for 2021 for one year at least.  So what happens for 2021?

With regard to Ferrari ... they have this car for 2021 as well, with a limited number of technical developments allowed.    Everything seems to have gone wrong for them this season, from their handling of Vettel to the development of their car.  

There seems to be a level of cluelessness / haphazardness to their management.   This has been leveled at them before (handling of the 2017 and 2018 title challenge), but things seem to be worse now.   Surely there has to be high level discussion going on.

Gasly is a top prospect but no point sending him back to RB when they just Frak around with the #2.

The Ferrari engine is what it is.

What's slightly more awkward to explain is how Ferrari went from a chassis/aero package that was broadly comparable to Mercedes in 2017 to a midfield car

Don’t be fooled by the chassis on the SF1000. This was part of Binotto’s ‘master plan’. Once the engine was deemed illegal, totally ruining the car ensures there’s no pressure to win as such if they somehow are contenders again in 2022, Binotto can act like a genius. Anyone with half a brain would never try absurd ‘tactics’ like this.

GSC wrote:Gasly is a top prospect but no point sending him back to RB when they just Frak around with the #2.

Gasly will probably one day end up at Renault after Alonso gets bored again. Gasly is fantastic talent but he needs to he loved - Tost does this, Marko doesn’t. Gasly confidence can be easily eroded by Marko’s bullish nature.

GSC wrote:Gasly is a top prospect but no point sending him back to RB when they just Frak around with the #2.

Ideally Red Bull just want to find their Bottas

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

GSC wrote:Gasly is a top prospect but no point sending him back to RB when they just Frak around with the #2.

Ideally Red Bull just want to find their Bottas

Having a doormat is only an option if you have the best car. Red Bull needs a second driver that can beat Mercedes when the opportunity is there to be had. No point the said doormat finishing 4th or 5th all the time.

GSC wrote:Any of them or Hulk would make sense. Don't see much point in putting Gasly back in the #2 car, nothing has really changed since last time. Seems to be really the insurance to Max leaving as much as anything. They need a #2 they can leave alone to do the job because they keep failing to manage guys who need developing

While I would love to see Hulk in a Red Bull - give him the platform his talent deserves, Gasly is unarguably making a case for his reinstatement. If he can consistently deliver performances like last Sunday's, I think RB could do worse than swap him and Albon around.

Seems they've promoted a few drivers (Gasly, Kvyat & Albon) before they were really ready. Kvyat seems to have found his level at Alpha Tauri. As I said, Gasly seems to have improved noticeably since he got demoted. Maybe Alex will come good with another season or two at AT?

No name Bertie wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Pierre Gasly as things stand now?

There was a reason for Red Bull to promote him and there was a reason for them to drop him.

The question is how much better is Pierre Gasly now compared to the end of 2018 when Red Bull decided to first promote him?

Vettel seems nailed on to be joining Racing Point for 2021 for one year at least.  So what happens for 2021?

Well as I said above, if they don't want Hulk or any other non-RB academy drivers, I think they could do a lot worse than promoting Gasly. With the caveat that he continues to deliver the sort of performances we saw on Sunday.

Having Vettel back in the team is just inviting the same kind of problems Mercedes had with Hamilton & Rosberg (or a repeat of the Vettel / Webber issues).
Max would probably smoke Seb on track most of the time, but in situations where they needed Vettel to "take one for the team" I doubt his compliance could be relied on.

Jeff Navarro wrote:
Having a doormat is only an option if you have the best car. Red Bull needs a second driver that can beat Mercedes when the opportunity is there to be had. No point the said doormat finishing 4th or 5th all the time.

Indeed. Brundle mentioned the same thing in the commentary. They really need to be locking out the 2nd row of the grid and having 2 cars up near the front gives the team more strategic options during the race. Especially if they can keep the Mercs honest and induce tyre wear issues - maybe force them to pit again.

As it is, with only Verstappen to worry about, they can use Bottas to cover whatever Max does.

dyrewolfe wrote:
Having Vettel back in the team is just inviting the same kind of problems Mercedes had with Hamilton & Rosberg (or a repeat of the Vettel / Webber issues).
Max would probably smoke Seb on track most of the time, but in situations where they needed Vettel to "take one for the team" I doubt his compliance could be relied on.

That hits the nail smack bang on the head.

There is no way whatsoever I could see Verstappen and Vettel driving together in the same team. Both demand No 1 status and woe betide anyway that stands in their way on that. Red Bull need a Bottas-type or Raikonnen-type who will happily play rear gunner but be the foil the team needs to score big points without stepping on No 1's toes - that ain't Vettel or Verstappen. Some teams have a real nice mix that works such as McLaren with Norris and Sainz but it is a tough balance to find.

Red Bull have a rear gunner right now lmao. That only works when you have the best car and you can deploy the 2nd car to disrupt the best runner from the next best team.

They need 2 drivers that can fight Bottas.

GSC wrote:Red Bull have a rear gunner right now lmao. That only works when you have the best car and you can deploy the 2nd car to disrupt the best runner from the next best team.

They need 2 drivers that can fight Bottas.

They have a rear gunner with a pop gun. They need a rear gunner with a bazooka which equates to a better driver who can get more out of the car than Albon does.

Who instead of finishing 6th finishes 4th and still miles behind Verstappen and Mercedes. That doesn't do anything to change the status quo

GSC wrote:Who instead of finishing 6th finishes 4th and still miles behind Verstappen and Mercedes. That doesn't do anything to change the status quo

Actually it does if that rear gunner is right behind Verstappen as pit stop strategy can be used to advantage but not at present because Albon is so far back. And also should Verstappen be hit with mechanical problems a better driver is better positioned to pick up more points. And of course better equipped to qualify in a better grid position.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:Who instead of finishing 6th finishes 4th and still miles behind Verstappen and Mercedes. That doesn't do anything to change the status quo

Actually it does if that rear gunner is right behind Verstappen as pit stop strategy can be used to advantage but not at present because Albon is so far back. And also should Verstappen be hit with mechanical problems a better driver is better positioned to pick up more points. And of course better equipped to qualify in a better grid position.

You still don't have a driver capable of putting pressure onto Bottas so it makes no sense upgrading ever so slightly.

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:Who instead of finishing 6th finishes 4th and still miles behind Verstappen and Mercedes. That doesn't do anything to change the status quo

Actually it does if that rear gunner is right behind Verstappen as pit stop strategy can be used to advantage but not at present because Albon is so far back. And also should Verstappen be hit with mechanical problems a better driver is better positioned to pick up more points. And of course better equipped to qualify in a better grid position.

You still don't have a driver capable of putting pressure onto Bottas so it makes no sense upgrading ever so slightly.

You have a driver capable of messing with Mercedes strategy which is more than is possible just now with Albon in the seat. For example at the weekend had Verstappen had a top notch No 2 right behind him Red Bull could have messed with Mercedes and done different strategies with one of their drivers forcing them into a rethink that may have forced an error. To think that Albon is the best Red Bull can do is a wrong mindset.

There's a very short list of guys on the grid who can match Max. Danny Ric struggled and he's probably one of the top 5 drivers in F1 right now

GSC wrote:There's a very short list of guys on the grid who can match Max. Danny Ric struggled and he's probably one of the top 5 drivers in F1 right now

Agreed. However, there are several that could do a better job than Albon. Look at his qualifying and race results for evidence of that.

I don't think anyones disputing that. More that a rear gunner slightly closer to Max makes much difference

GSC wrote:Red Bull have a rear gunner right now lmao. That only works when you have the best car and you can deploy the 2nd car to disrupt the best runner from the next best team.

They need 2 drivers that can fight Bottas.

Yes but equally they want to retain harmony in the garage. They, like Mercedes, have experience of what its like to live with a pair of drivers fighting with each other (and that was when they were winning titles).

Also, when you don't have the fastest car, you can still sometimes win by out-thinking other teams on strategy (something else RB have done well in the past). More often than not, you need drivers that will co-operate to make that work.

I would agree that, right now, Albon doesn't look like the right #2 driver...but the list of available drivers who would both fit into the team AND deliver the necessary performances is pretty short.

What anyone needs to bear in mind is, yes Red Bull would prefer a clear #1 and a clear #2. But until the rule changes in 2022, they aren’t likely to surpass Mercedes on engine performance. Therefore they would need two alphas to get the best possible results.
Albon looks very much a c class driver. Nothing to indicate he’ll ever be even at Bottas’ level.
Vettel’s best, whether it’s still in there somewhere - Binotto’s voodoo prays aside - he can obviously challenge Mercedes as shown in 2017-18.
Red Bull wants to win championships then Vettel is the only real option they have. Verstappen and Vettel can take it to Hamilton as Bottas is a non issue.

Albon had been mixing it with the Mercedes and with Hamilton in particular towards the end of last season and the first race of this season. Both times Hamilton was penalised for taking Albon out. But since then Albon has been having notable qualifying issues and tyre degradation issues in the races while Verstappen excels ahead of him.

Albon was mixing it with the Mercs because both had a gearbox problem and a safety car closed the game and let RB put him on new tyres. Max was also out of the race

Claire Williams steps down as deputy team principal at the end of the Italian GP weekend.
Long time in coming really her terrible decisions made the team a laughing stock.

Sir Frank Williams gone as well. The Williams name will be symbolic for only going forward.

I'm not sure anyone could've really done much more with Williams. They just don't really have the tools to compete in modern f1.

I really do fear for Williams future now. I give them perhaps a couple of years before they are either sold on or go bust.

They just got sold?

GSC wrote:They just got sold?

They were sold a few weeks ago and bought by a US investment company.

BBC article says the sale was completed a month ago, so hardly a surprise to see Sir Frank and Claire Williams leaving. Slightly surprised that they didn't stay in some capacity until the end of the year (such as managing the team during the race weekends, while the new management take over the factory / development side of things in preparation for next year and more importantly the reg changes for 2022).

dummy_half wrote:BBC article says the sale was completed a month ago, so hardly a surprise to see Sir Frank and Claire Williams leaving. Slightly surprised that they didn't stay in some capacity until the end of the year (such as managing the team during the race weekends, while the new management take over the factory / development side of things in preparation for next year and more importantly the reg changes for 2022).

Reading what Clare Williams has said I think she realises it is the end of an era and wants to cut the ties immediately rather than drag things out. It is no longer owned by the Williams family and so she believes it is time to go. The investment company, in fairness to them, wanted her to stay on probably because they realise they know Jack about running a F1 team.

I’ve heard James Matthews is on the new board, former racing driver, and husband of, Pippa Middleton. 

Not surprised he’s got involved, especially given his racing background. Also, it’s more interesting, when you see that his asset management and investment company, Eden Rock capital, is run by none other than, Edward Horner. Sound familiar, that because it is, he’s Christian Horner’s cousin. 

I think something will be in the pipeline for Williams. As for the next TP, they’ve worked with Graeme Lowden before, ex Manor TP etc.

What worries me about Williams is that whereas it had been family-run for its entirety and had F1 etched in its DNA through its owners that is no longer the case. It has become a toy/plaything for a finance company and once they become bored with it or have done with throwing cash into it they will drop it like a hot brick without a second thought.

We should probably let the new owners settle in before we start judging them.

Renault could be set to rename themselves ‘Alpine F1 team’.
Verstappen crashed in FP1 at Monza.

Just John wrote:I’ve heard James Matthews is on the new board, former racing driver, and husband of, Pippa Middleton. 

Not surprised he’s got involved, especially given his racing background. Also, it’s more interesting, when you see that his asset management and investment company, Eden Rock capital, is run by none other than, Edward Horner. Sound familiar, that because it is, he’s Christian Horner’s cousin. 

I think something will be in the pipeline for Williams. As for the next TP, they’ve worked with Graeme Lowden before, ex Manor TP etc.

So who is it? Or did your source / article not give any names?

Hope its someone reasonably capable.

Somewhat encouraged to hear about Edward Horner. At least they have someone at the top who is well connected with modern F1 and therefore should be well aware of what Dorilton & Eden Rock are getting themselves into.

CaledonianCraig wrote:
What worries me about Williams is that whereas it had been family-run for its entirety and had F1 etched in its DNA through its owners that is no longer the case. It has become a toy/plaything for a finance company and once they become bored with it or have done with throwing cash into it they will drop it like a hot brick without a second thought.

Thats always a worry with investment firms...especially foreign ones with no previous involvement in the sport. With football teams you can see the attraction, as they are potential money-making businesses. F1 teams not so much...unless you hook up with one of the more successful ones.

But as GSC said, all we can do is wait and see. I'm hopeful that with a couple of their people having motorsport / F1 connections, they will be taking this acquisition seriously and give Williams the support they need.

Sadly, something had to change at Williams. They can be proud of the fact they did things on their own terms...with a fair amount of success, for over 20 years. But the sport has changed almost beyond recognition in the last 20 years and privateers just aren't able to acquire the resources and sponsorship needed to be anything more than back markers now.

For a team that has won multiple titles in the past, thats just not good enough. They either had to move on or quit.

Team Williams: Constructors Championship

Year	Position	Points	Engine	Notes
------	---------	--------	-----------	---------
2010	6	69	Cosworth
2011	9	5	Cosworth
2012	8	76	Renault
2013	9	5	Renault
2014	3	320	Mercedes
2015	3	257	Mercedes
2016	5	138	Mercedes
2017	5	83	Mercedes
2018	10	7	Mercedes
2019	10	1	Mercedes
2020	10	0	Mercedes	Ongoing

So Williams made the correct choice to go with the Mercedes engine in 2014.   But it started going downhill in 2016.  The 2018 car was a disaster and so was the 2019 and 2020 cars.  This despite having a Mercedes engine.   Clearly things went drastically wrong at Williams and resulted in the team becoming unviable.

Hamilton pole
Bottas 2nd
Sainz 3rd
Perez 4th
Verstappen 5th
Albon back in 8th
Leclerc 13th
Vettel 17th

Mick Schumacher wins F2 feature race at Monza. Callum Illot will be kicking himself as he stalled during his pitstop, ending up coming home p6. Robert Schwartzman came home p9.

Illot 134pts
Schwartzman 134pts
Schumacher 131pts

Momentum all with Schumacher now. Nailed on for Alfa Romeo in 21’

Just John wrote:Momentum all with Schumacher now. Nailed on for Alfa Romeo in 21’

With people I’ve spoken to Mick has one foot in at Alfa, but Ferrari wanted to see more wins. So Mick ideally would want 1-2 more wins before any F1 talks develop.

Another interesting subplot is neither Schwartzman nor Schumacher have a single pole position, whereas Illot has 4. That’s 16 bonus pts. Could turn out very valuable

Daniel Ticktum was disqualified from the sprint race at Monza, Callum Illot was promoted to winner and retakes championship lead. Subsequently Schumacher’s run of podiums continues to 5 in a row. Schwartzman promoted to 5th, rather disappointing weekend for the Russian.
Illot 149pts - 3 wins
Schumacher 143pts - 1 win
Schwartzman 140pts - 2 wins

Mugello should be fantastic

Bottas just awful

Albon five second penalty. No excuses for him now, just abysmal.

It’s ridiculous what SC’s are pulled out for nowadays They just use it to spice up the race. Hamilton and Giovinazzi pit, while the pit lane was possibly closed.

Hamilton possible 10 sec stop/go penalty. Basically will be last, and won’t be winning this race.

Leclerc big crash. Another SC. Red flagged the race.

This is the problem with unnecessary SC’s. Just creates a domino effect of problems and penalties. Lando now under investigation for going too slow.

Lance Stroll didn’t come in under the SC, but now gets a free change of tyres under red flag conditions. The luck this boy gets. He leads the race. Olly, you must be creaming yourself.