ENGLAND v WALES - Match Thread / Build up - 7/3/2020

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England    v Wales    - 07/03/2020 - 16:45pm - the HOME of Rugby.

England XV

Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Wilson, Curry

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade

Wales XV

Halfpenny; North, Tompkins, Parkes, Williams; Biggar, T Williams; R Evans, Owens, D Lewis, Ball, AW Jones (capt), Moriarty, Navidi, Tipuric.

Replacements: Elias, Carre, L Brown, Shingler, Faletau, Webb, J Evans, McNicholl.


Overall - Played 134 - Eng 63 - Wales 59 - Drawn 12

[MichaelT]

Agree with that - between the world cup warm up and the game the other week, Tom Curry has had numerous punches and forearms to the face, high shots and cheap shots. It does look like he was targeted.

[Soul Requiem]

Agree with that - between the world cup warm up and the game the other week, Tom Curry has had numerous punches and forearms to the face, high shots and cheap shots. It does look like he was targeted.

After tipping him, Williams made sure he put his arm in his face too.

[No 7&1/2]

Tmo s and citing officials dont seem to be consistent at all.

[irfon17]

Collapse, I think you are right with regards to Marler's intentions, but I don't think it is relevant that Marler was likely only trying to be funny or provoke a reaction. If you go up to somebody in the street or at work and fondle their genitals, I don't think "It was funny" or "I was only trying to get a reaction" would stand up as defences in court. I realise that a rugby field is a very different context to work or the street, but a line has to be drawn to protect the reputation of the sport. If fondling genitals is seen as a minor offence, what will we see next in an attempt to provoke a response, players inserting their fingers into each other's orrifices? Players urinating on each other?

[Comfort]

Welsh fans being relatively gracious in defeat, English fans being terrible winners.... what a swing shouldn't it be the other way around?

Eddie should have the book thrown at him for claiming the ref was cheating (especially after they've just won) and then and INDEPENDANT citing officer cites another 2 English players but of course, they're biased aswell… zzzzzzzzzzzz

That was a dirty game of rugby, the welsh didn't stray past the line anywhere near as often or as far as the English players I'm afraid, that's down to their experience - and why we're talking about most of the incidents coming from English players...

Also worrying to see such a difference of opinion on the marler - AWJ incident, he should be copping at last a 12 week ban which is the entry point - that is not in the spirit of rugby at all and he's lucky AWJ did hold himself back, imagine he'd done that to the french prop...

[Soul Requiem]

Welsh fans being relatively gracious in defeat, English fans being terrible winners.... what a swing shouldn't it be the other way around?

Eddie should have the book thrown at him for claiming the ref was cheating (especially after they've just won) and then and INDEPENDANT citing officer cites another 2 English players but of course, they're biased aswell… zzzzzzzzzzzz

That was a dirty game of rugby, the welsh didn't stray past the line anywhere near as often or as far as the English players I'm afraid, that's down to their experience - and why we're talking about most of the incidents coming from English players...

Also worrying to see such a difference of opinion on the marler - AWJ incident, he should be copping at last a 12 week ban which is the entry point - that is not in the spirit of rugby at all and he's lucky AWJ did hold himself back, imagine he'd done that to the french prop...

Aside from all the times they strayed past the line you would be right, how no Welsh got cited is a mystery.

[No 7&1/2]

I would say let's have the tmo s step up efforts to eradicate the holding on and winding up of opposition players but they cant cope with what they have to do now. It's going to be down to coaches and players themselves to decide what they find acceptable.

[Guest]

I would say let's have the tmo s step up efforts to eradicate the holding on and winding up of opposition players but they cant cope with what they have to do now. It's going to be down to coaches and players themselves to decide what they find acceptable.

Eddie’s really going to have his work cut out! And he says he doesn’t even like coaching!

[MichaelT]

That was a dirty game of rugby, the welsh didn't stray past the line anywhere near as often or as far as the English players I'm afraid, that's down to their experience - and why we're talking about most of the incidents coming from English players...

As an English fan, this is something the team need to address. Something is clearly not right there regarding the attitude and behaviour. The New Zealand win last year, England dominated is fair to say and there were no instances of dirty play by anyone. Just a great game played very well.

Whether its the final defeat, the Saracens issue, having to play so soon after the world cup (I believe thats had an impact), something is not right and it is embarrassing.

England should be sitting on two bonus point wins in the last two games, with one hand on the trophy. They only have themselves to blame.

[No 7&1/2]

I dont think england are too fussed about ending it Oracle. But nor are any of the other teams.

[TightHEAD]

Marler will probably toss in the towel (again) he is immature to say the least and rums for momma when the pressure comes on

No, he suffers from mental illness.

Not really a laughing matter you Tool.

[Collapse2005]

Also you make a good point about the number of sanctions. It seems baffling after the Ireland game, with shoulder charges in plenty of rucks totally unpunished that England have now got players getting cited.

Nothing stood out in the Ireland game quite like the dangerous play from Tuilagi which is way too obvious and dangerous not to sanction.

I see Jones might get a ban too which is not really surprising for hinting at the ref being a cheat. This England side has a tendancy to be a bit of a cheap shot side under Jones which based on his interviews he clearly encourages. Bound to catch on him a some stage.

As opposed to Wales and Ireland who were whiter than white

Ireland arent a cheap shot side, they dont obsess about taking opposition players out of the game like England does. Yes the Ireland team have committed banable offenses but dont "target players" as part of a game plan like England do.

I suppose they didn't target Tom Curry did they, all teams do it so stop with the holier than thou attitude.

No they didnt target him they cleared him out in rucks when he was infringing. Not the same thing. In that game it did seem like Ireland had as a game plan upped the ante re physicality but that was across the board rather than with respect to one player.

[Soul Requiem]

Also you make a good point about the number of sanctions. It seems baffling after the Ireland game, with shoulder charges in plenty of rucks totally unpunished that England have now got players getting cited.

Nothing stood out in the Ireland game quite like the dangerous play from Tuilagi which is way too obvious and dangerous not to sanction.

I see Jones might get a ban too which is not really surprising for hinting at the ref being a cheat. This England side has a tendancy to be a bit of a cheap shot side under Jones which based on his interviews he clearly encourages. Bound to catch on him a some stage.

As opposed to Wales and Ireland who were whiter than white

Ireland arent a cheap shot side, they dont obsess about taking opposition players out of the game like England does. Yes the Ireland team have committed banable offenses but dont "target players" as part of a game plan like England do.

I suppose they didn't target Tom Curry did they, all teams do it so stop with the holier than thou attitude.

No they didnt target him they cleared him out in rucks when he was infringing. Not the same thing. In that game it did seem like Ireland had as a game plan upped the ante re physicality but that was across the board rather than with respect to one player.

Of course it's the same thing, the only difference being you wish to defend one and not the other.

Imagine if Tom Curry has a bit of an AWJ moment and decides to whine about it.

[Hoonercat]

The key really is AWJ. Shanklin says he was surprised AWJ seemed to throw Marler under the bus, when most assumed the two players would be on good terms from the Lions tour. Then again, he has a good point. It's not really clear if Marler thought he was having a laugh, or trying to get AWJ to react. The Welshman rightly points out that it was only his self-control that stopped him from clocking Marler, and drawing a harsh penalty himself. Even if Marler was trying to kid around, AWJ doesn't have to see the joke. England vs Wales is never a laughing matter, and you have to imagine the death of Matthew J Watkins will have been on some Welsh minds too.

I think less to do with self-control and more to do with seeing an opportunity to get Marler sent off. He could have pushed Marler away, or pushed himself away from Marler. Instead he let it continue while looking to the touch judge. Hopefully his on-field reaction to the incident will be taken into account more than his off-field reaction.

[Collapse2005]

Collapse, I think you are right with regards to Marler's intentions, but I don't think it is relevant that Marler was likely only trying to be funny or provoke a reaction. If you go up to somebody in the street or at work and fondle their genitals, I don't think "It was funny" or "I was only trying to get a reaction" would stand up as defences in court. I realise that a rugby field is a very different context to work or the street, but a line has to be drawn to protect the reputation of the sport. If fondling genitals is seen as a minor offence, what will we see next in an attempt to provoke a response, players inserting their fingers into each other's orrifices? Players urinating on each other?

I dont think you can compare going up to someone in the street and grabbing their tackle with what Marler did in the context of a rugby fight in which case intent seems clearer. If you did it in the street it would be hard to justify what your intent was. Agree on a ban dont agree that it was a sexual assualt.

[TightHEAD]

Who knows what happened on the Lions tour, Maybe AWJ and Marler got together at some point. Perfectly entitled to as we are all inclusive these days are we not.

How come 606v2 doesn't have a rainbow/LGBTQ emoji?

[Pete330v2]

Collapse, I think you are right with regards to Marler's intentions, but I don't think it is relevant that Marler was likely only trying to be funny or provoke a reaction. If you go up to somebody in the street or at work and fondle their genitals, I don't think "It was funny" or "I was only trying to get a reaction" would stand up as defences in court. I realise that a rugby field is a very different context to work or the street, but a line has to be drawn to protect the reputation of the sport. If fondling genitals is seen as a minor offence, what will we see next in an attempt to provoke a response, players inserting their fingers into each other's orrifices? Players urinating on each other?

Using that logic boxing would see participants arrested after every fight. As for the inserting of fingers, it's all been done before so it's already been seen.
Marler will cop a ban, how long we'll have to wait and see. He doesn't seem too worried about it all from his twitter response.

Back to the ongoing debate.
I've been on this forum since it's BBC days but this is the first year that I've seen fans whinge after winning. It happened after the Ireland game with one example of a poster citing Ireland's numerous red card offences that were missed. No Ireland players were cited yet similar voices are claiming similar things against the Welsh side yet once again, it's only England players that get the chance to bring the biscuits to the citing hearings.

Catch a grip folks. Be happy with your wins, celebrate them instead of spewing forth all this negativity.

[Gooseberry]

Who knows what happened on the Lions tour, Maybe AWJ and Marler got together at some point. Perfectly entitled to as we are all inclusive these days are we not.

How come 606v2 doesn't have a rainbow/LGBTQ emoji?

Because it would upset sensitive souls like yourself

[Collapse2005]

Also you make a good point about the number of sanctions. It seems baffling after the Ireland game, with shoulder charges in plenty of rucks totally unpunished that England have now got players getting cited.

Nothing stood out in the Ireland game quite like the dangerous play from Tuilagi which is way too obvious and dangerous not to sanction.

I see Jones might get a ban too which is not really surprising for hinting at the ref being a cheat. This England side has a tendancy to be a bit of a cheap shot side under Jones which based on his interviews he clearly encourages. Bound to catch on him a some stage.

As opposed to Wales and Ireland who were whiter than white

Ireland arent a cheap shot side, they dont obsess about taking opposition players out of the game like England does. Yes the Ireland team have committed banable offenses but dont "target players" as part of a game plan like England do.

I suppose they didn't target Tom Curry did they, all teams do it so stop with the holier than thou attitude.

No they didnt target him they cleared him out in rucks when he was infringing. Not the same thing. In that game it did seem like Ireland had as a game plan upped the ante re physicality but that was across the board rather than with respect to one player.

Of course it's the same thing, the only difference being you wish to defend one and not the other.

Imagine if Tom Curry has a bit of an AWJ moment and decides to whine about it.

AWJ has shown a lot of class throughout. He said that Marler is a good guy, he said that like he meant it and I believe he is likely a good guy too. He also didnt whine he answered a question that was put to him. His response was pretty reasonable under the circumstances. I think he also did really well not to clock Marler for the grab.

Curry can whinge if he wants for being cleaned out, maybe for the clean out being heavy handed but it wasnt a particularly notable incident compared to Tuilagi's tackle and Marlers tug so I dont think people would take it too seriously.

[TightHEAD]

Who knows what happened on the Lions tour, Maybe AWJ and Marler got together at some point. Perfectly entitled to as we are all inclusive these days are we not.

How come 606v2 doesn't have a rainbow/LGBTQ emoji?

Because it would upset sensitive souls like yourself

How does that work?
Recap for you - I just asked why there isn't one!

I know life moves pretty fast, but do try and keep up.

[Soul Requiem]

Also you make a good point about the number of sanctions. It seems baffling after the Ireland game, with shoulder charges in plenty of rucks totally unpunished that England have now got players getting cited.

Nothing stood out in the Ireland game quite like the dangerous play from Tuilagi which is way too obvious and dangerous not to sanction.

I see Jones might get a ban too which is not really surprising for hinting at the ref being a cheat. This England side has a tendancy to be a bit of a cheap shot side under Jones which based on his interviews he clearly encourages. Bound to catch on him a some stage.

As opposed to Wales and Ireland who were whiter than white

Ireland arent a cheap shot side, they dont obsess about taking opposition players out of the game like England does. Yes the Ireland team have committed banable offenses but dont "target players" as part of a game plan like England do.

I suppose they didn't target Tom Curry did they, all teams do it so stop with the holier than thou attitude.

No they didnt target him they cleared him out in rucks when he was infringing. Not the same thing. In that game it did seem like Ireland had as a game plan upped the ante re physicality but that was across the board rather than with respect to one player.

Of course it's the same thing, the only difference being you wish to defend one and not the other.

Imagine if Tom Curry has a bit of an AWJ moment and decides to whine about it.

AWJ has shown a lot of class throughout. He said that Marler is a good guy, he said that like he meant it and I believe he is likely a good guy too. He also didnt whine he answered a question that was put to him. His response was pretty reasonable under the circumstances. I think he also did really well not to clock Marler for the grab.

Curry can whinge if he wants for being cleaned out, maybe for the clean out being heavy handed but it wasnt a particularly notable incident compared to Tuilagi's tackle and Marlers tug so I dont think people would take it too seriously.

It's not all that notable having two Irish players target his head and then in the next match being tipped is it

[No 7&1/2]

Have you seen the incidents being talked about in the ireland england game collapse? They did do the rounds but there were a couple of incidents where there were no arm clear outs to the head from the side.

[SecretFly]

Who knows what happened on the Lions tour, Maybe AWJ and Marler got together at some point. Perfectly entitled to as we are all inclusive these days are we not.

How come 606v2 doesn't have a rainbow/LGBTQ emoji?

Because it would upset sensitive souls like yourself

Only if there wasn't a Toxic Heterosexual Masculinity emoji to balance things out.

[TightHEAD]

We have this one.

[SecretFly]

Which one is that? Coz if that's a bird on the bottom.... she ain't pretty....

[Collapse2005]

Also you make a good point about the number of sanctions. It seems baffling after the Ireland game, with shoulder charges in plenty of rucks totally unpunished that England have now got players getting cited.

Nothing stood out in the Ireland game quite like the dangerous play from Tuilagi which is way too obvious and dangerous not to sanction.

I see Jones might get a ban too which is not really surprising for hinting at the ref being a cheat. This England side has a tendancy to be a bit of a cheap shot side under Jones which based on his interviews he clearly encourages. Bound to catch on him a some stage.

As opposed to Wales and Ireland who were whiter than white

Ireland arent a cheap shot side, they dont obsess about taking opposition players out of the game like England does. Yes the Ireland team have committed banable offenses but dont "target players" as part of a game plan like England do.

I suppose they didn't target Tom Curry did they, all teams do it so stop with the holier than thou attitude.

No they didnt target him they cleared him out in rucks when he was infringing. Not the same thing. In that game it did seem like Ireland had as a game plan upped the ante re physicality but that was across the board rather than with respect to one player.

Of course it's the same thing, the only difference being you wish to defend one and not the other.

Imagine if Tom Curry has a bit of an AWJ moment and decides to whine about it.

AWJ has shown a lot of class throughout. He said that Marler is a good guy, he said that like he meant it and I believe he is likely a good guy too. He also didnt whine he answered a question that was put to him. His response was pretty reasonable under the circumstances. I think he also did really well not to clock Marler for the grab.

Curry can whinge if he wants for being cleaned out, maybe for the clean out being heavy handed but it wasnt a particularly notable incident compared to Tuilagi's tackle and Marlers tug so I dont think people would take it too seriously.

It's not all that notable having two Irish players target his head and then in the next match being tipped is it

No one targeted his head Soul. Not sure where getting that hysterical point of view from but it seems quite dramatic. Clean outs hit him in the body first and bound to him so all good. There may have been contact with the head as part of the clean out which could have been penalised but there was obviously nothing clear and obvious like the direct contact to the head in the North/Tuilagi collision which was very obvious.

[TightHEAD]

I was thinking last night, had Manu got up from the Parkes cheap shot and started a pushing contest would the TMO had looked at it, also had Manu just lay there on the ground Parkes would have gone for sure.

The TMOs really need to start doing their jobs properly and just because a player doesn't react of faint injury for effect doesn't mean incidents shouldn't be reviewed.

[Soul Requiem]

No one targeted his head Soul. Not sure where getting that hysterical point of view from but it seems quite dramatic. Clean outs hit him in the body first and bound to him so all good. There may have been contact with the head as part of the clean out which could have been penalised but there was obviously nothing clear and obvious like the direct contact to the head in the North/Tuilagi collision which was very obvious.

You clearly haven't seen the incident then.

[No 7&1/2]

You cant have seen the incidents then collapse as they're pretty clear cut.

[SecretFly]

I was thinking last night, had Manu got up from the Parkes cheap shot and started a pushing contest would the TMO had looked at it, also had Manu just lay there on the ground Parkes would have gone for sure.

The TMOs really need to start doing their jobs properly and just because a player doesn't react of faint injury for effect doesn't mean incidents shouldn't be reviewed.

Yes, but remember when we all wanted the TMO to be executed at dawn because of all his needless interruptions when it was a new toy?

"Let the f**kin' ref ref, for Christ's sake!  Let the game flow!"

[MichaelT]

Don't think many English fans would say Tuilagi or Marler don't deserve bans, but Lawes being cited when Parkes wasn't, Owens wasn't and Ryan wasn't seems a justifiable complaint to me.

Also the double standard on Henshaws no arms tackle on May in comparison to Mays early tackle on Stockdale in the same game.

[Collapse2005]

You cant have seen the incidents then collapse as they're pretty clear cut.

They really arent. Tuilagi's red card was clear cut.

[Collapse2005]

Don't think many English fans would say Tuilagi or Marler don't deserve bans, but Lawes being cited when Parkes wasn't, Owens wasn't and Ryan wasn't seems a justifiable complaint to me.

Also the double standard on Henshaws no arms tackle on May in comparison to Mays early tackle on Stockdale in the same game.

Any clips of what Lawes did?

[No 7&1/2]

They were. Cant remember the first guy who did it but theres a good clip of toner putting in a hit. The tuilagi one probably was a red. Close with mitigation of the tackle but personally with the speed and no arms hes left himself open to that decision.

[No 7&1/2]

This may or may not work collapse: https://twitter.com/WheresTommyV/status/1237051039511166976?s=09

[MichaelT]

Any clips of what Lawes did?

https://www.ruck.co.uk/courtney-lawes-tackle-on-alun-wyn-jones/

[lostinwales]

Welsh fans being relatively gracious in defeat, English fans being terrible winners.... what a swing shouldn't it be the other way around?

Eddie should have the book thrown at him for claiming the ref was cheating (especially after they've just won) and then and INDEPENDANT citing officer cites another 2 English players but of course, they're biased aswell… zzzzzzzzzzzz

That was a dirty game of rugby, the welsh didn't stray past the line anywhere near as often or as far as the English players I'm afraid, that's down to their experience - and why we're talking about most of the incidents coming from English players...

Also worrying to see such a difference of opinion on the marler - AWJ incident, he should be copping at last a 12 week ban which is the entry point - that is not in the spirit of rugby at all and he's lucky AWJ did hold himself back, imagine he'd done that to the french prop...

Yes the bulk of the Welsh fans have been gracious in defeat(with at least one very active exception). Bad winners? I don't know, but none of the current conversation is anything to do with the rugby at all. That isn't driven by the English fans apart from the simple question marks over the perceived differences in how offences by each side were dealt with. Injustice winds everyone up. To be fair a good proportion of the 'whinging' is not coming from English or Welsh fans.

[SecretFly]

To be fair a good proportion of the 'whinging' is not coming from English or Welsh fans.

Yeah, French and Italian posters here are as usual letting themselves down again, over-reacting, being needlessly aggressive and being total wind-up f**ks!

[Collapse2005]

They were. Cant remember the first guy who did it but theres a good clip of toner putting in a hit. The tuilagi one probably was a red. Close with mitigation of the tackle but personally with the speed and no arms hes left himself open to that decision.

Sorry I cant agree with you on this at all, there was very little in them at all I cant believe people are still talking about them. You could argue that Toner came in from the side maybe or some the clean outs were heavy handed but so what? You going to give a red card for going in from the side?

With Tuilagi at speed his first impact with North was to the head, sorry but thats probably going to get a red. The clean outs weren't directly on the head. They may have ended up on the head as part of the impact but nothing obvious whatsoever. You could pick out lots of similar fairly innocuous incidents in any game.

Thanks for posting the Lawes clip, not seeing much in that one either IMO.

[Soul Requiem]

They were. Cant remember the first guy who did it but theres a good clip of toner putting in a hit. The tuilagi one probably was a red. Close with mitigation of the tackle but personally with the speed and no arms hes left himself open to that decision.

Sorry I cant agree with you on this at all, there was very little in them at all I cant believe people are still talking about them. You could argue that Toner came in from the side maybe or some the clean outs were heavy handed but so what? You going to give a red card for going in from the side?

With Tuilagi at speed his first impact with North was to the head, sorry but thats probably going to get a red. The clean outs weren't directly on the head. They may have ended up on the head as part of the impact but nothing obvious whatsoever. You could pick out lots of similar fairly innocuous incidents in any game.

Thanks for posting the Lawes clip, not seeing much in that one either IMO.

So clear outs directly to the head weren't directly to the head and the first impact on North being his shoulder was his head, hmmm seems a balanced view of things.

[Collapse2005]

Come on soul there was nothing clearly directly to the head.

[irfon17]

Soul, if you think that Tuilagi's first impact was with anything other than George North's head then you need to either look at a replay from another angle or get your eyes tested.

[No 7&1/2]

https://mobile.twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21
That last one is direct to the head. Ryan is it?

[MichaelT]

https://mobile.twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21
That last one is direct to the head. Ryan is it?

Its in at the side, reckless, leaves his feet and at Irelands 5 metre line. Should have been a penalty and yellow at least.

I don't actually see contact with Currys head, but I also dont see Ryans arms infront of his shoulders so how does he connect? Curry is also stationary and not involved in the play anymore after Toners clear out from the side.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Marler will probably toss in the towel (again) he is immature to say the least and rums for momma when the pressure comes on

See, I would use a tissue.

[Collapse2005]

https://mobile.twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21
That last one is direct to the head. Ryan is it?

Ive seen this video and thought it was a bit bizarre how much people were complaining about it. I dont think you can tell from that video where the first contact is and its Ryan's chest that connects with Curry's whole body more than anything. No shoulder charge, no targetting the head, the impact wasnt even that heavy for god sake as Ryan was on the ground himself when he cleaned Curry out, etc. You can accuse him of being heavy handed as Curry had already been cleaned out but a red in that case would not have been justified at all, not convinced it was even a penalty, it might have been.

[Irish Londoner]

Marler will probably toss in the towel (again) he is immature to say the least and rums for momma when the pressure comes on

See, I would use a tissue.

Big lad our Joe......

[Collapse2005]

https://mobile.twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21
That last one is direct to the head. Ryan is it?

Its in at the side, reckless, leaves his feet and at Irelands 5 metre line. Should have been a penalty and yellow at least.

I don't actually see contact with Currys head, but I also dont see Ryans arms infront of his shoulders so how does he connect? Curry is also stationary and not involved in the play anymore after Toners clear out from the side.

I actually dont think Toner was even in from the side, it just looks that way as Itoje was lying on the wrong side of the ruck as usual but not part of the ruck. Itoje's position made it look like Toner was in from the side but he wasnt really. The previous clean out by Ryan, the first one was marginally in from the side and could have been penalised but marginal enough too.

[No 7&1/2]

That's a touch one eyed collapse!

[Collapse2005]

That's a touch one eyed collapse!

Of course you would say that 7.5 but there wasnt a whole lot in those incidents and despite it all happening in front of the ref and the silly twitter campaigns sense prevailed on this occasion and no one took the hysteria seriously.

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