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Glasgow and Edinburgh ongoing banter thread 24 - Covid funtimes

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Post by RDW Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:10 am

First topic message reminder :

Previous gibberish

https://www.606v2.com/t69038p1050-glasgow-and-edinburgh-banter-thread-no-23-new-season-new-thread

Fixtures

Glasgow - none

Edinburgh - none

Scotland - none

Sad

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Post by bsando Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:42 pm

I was anxious prior to kick off now I’m pretty much already expecting a loss

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Post by RDW Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Edinburgh saving their worst performance for last. Think I'll go to bed soon and it's only 21:50!

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Post by RDW Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:06 pm

Edinburgh have woken up a bit but still not great. When we put a few phases together Bordeaux look pretty ordinary - problem is we're not doing that very often before getting turned over.

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Post by RDW Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:09 pm

Shiel's box kicking has actually been pretty good generally.

It is the one thing any 9 at Edinburgh should be good at certainly!

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Post by RDW Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:20 pm

Well much better 2nd 20 than the first 20 but only 3 points to show from it. Bordeaux look like they're going to score whenever they get the ball.

If we score next it's game on - if Bordeaux score i think they'll run riot.

Either way it's not worth staying up for!

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Post by bsando Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:00 pm

Seems like Edinburgh giving away cheap opportunities for Bordeaux bègles from the bbc live feed

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Post by NeilyBroon Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:38 pm

Glad I gave this one a miss, sounds even more painful than the Ulster game!
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Post by RDW Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:21 am

Edinburgh were better in the 2nd half and definitely could have won, but we were never able to put enough possession together without making mistakes or get turned over.

Tom English in his usual bombastic way was full of hyperbole about how we threw another one away, but in truth we just weren't good enough.

Charlie Sheil actually had a solid game after a dodgy start - his.box kicking is actually pretty good and he's got a lot of skills. I'd like to see him be a bit more gobby though - he needs some sessions with Rory Lawson or Chris Cusiter, as we probably could have milked a few more penalties.

George Taylor had a good game and got us over the mainline well.

Graham had a quiet game had also had a ridiculous assist for Hoyland's try - well worth a watch.

Kinghorn blew a clear opportunity when we were 20-11 down - he should have given it to Graham in a 2 on 1 but went himself. Definitely still has much to learn.

I'm actually a bit disappointed with Cockers post match - that was a really poor performance, yet he trotted out the usual chat about being the underdogs and up against a team with a a huge budget etc. He can't bemoan our lack of killer instinct yet also let us off the hook when we play as badly as that.

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Post by BigGee Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:55 am

He may have given a very different talk to the team in private!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:26 am

Looking at the interview today it seems a very balanced view from cockers. Morale is probably already low after those games so there's no point in him digging the boot in further with criticism.

If Edinburgh can crack finishing opportunities and kinghorn learns to pass then they're well placed to win silverware next year. Seeing as they're not getting rid of Hodge it'd be good to see a consultant come in to "assist" Hodge so the backs look a bit more cohesive. Perhaps someone like Ben cairns who has a former link to the club, I think that'd go a long way towards solving a few of Edinburgh's issues. If they know they will come away with points every time there's pressure on the opposition that'll give them confidence to take it one step further and win.
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Post by RDW Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:14 pm

https://twitter.com/MarkPalmerST/status/1307626111573131265?s=19

Shots are being fired at Cockers now, and none of it comes as a surprise!

In Thomson's case, he was brought in on a short term deal for injury cover, but most of the time he was there we had most of our lock options available. I'm not sure why he's so surprised he didn't get picked...

What is worrying is him saying several players aren't happy, but that could be other members of the bin juice club.

What is for sure though is all these articles have shown just how brutal am environment professional rugby is!

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:26 pm

RDW wrote:https://twitter.com/MarkPalmerST/status/1307626111573131265?s=19

Shots are being fired at Cockers now, and none of it comes as a surprise!

In Thomson's case, he was brought in on a short term deal for injury cover, but most of the time he was there we had most of our lock options available. I'm not sure why he's so surprised he didn't get picked...

What is worrying is him saying several players aren't happy, but that could be other members of the bin juice club.

What is for sure though is all these articles have shown just how brutal am environment professional rugby is!

It's becoming harder to take these articles seriously. To me that just sounds like pro sport, which is as much about luck as opportunity. It's a tough and competitive environment but that's what happens, becoming an athlete in any sport is bloody hard. People look at Finn Russell who looks like he's just naturally that talented and just pisses around on the pitch and think that he just swans into any squad. Accounts indicate that he's one of the hardest working players in training and basically lives and breathes rugby. The same is true of Owen Farrell, Johnny Wilkinson, the Gray brothers, Itoje, Hogg etc etc. Those who are superstars aren't just superstars because they're naturally gifted, although of course that helps, they work bloody hard.

Thomson does make a good point though that more players should look abroad or even south to the championship if opportunities don't present themselves. The super6 isn't really fit for purpose unless it can attract significant talent from outside Scotland rather than just being a dumping ground for the not quites of the pro teams.
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Post by tigertattie Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:33 pm

It’s a culture across Scottish rugby I’m afraid.

Winning is the most important thing. And many clubs view winning now as a priority over winning in a few years time. The majority of players get one look and if they aren’t the best then they are consigned to playing social rugby or holding the tackle bags.

How many clubs do you see where the 1xv hold tackle bags for the 2xv? There are some, but few and far between. One of the biggest issues is that you get guys playing the same position at rugby as the coach’s son. You’ve no chance. By the time you get to adult rugby, the boy who’s always started over you is then seen as the best player.

It must be 100 times worse in pro rugby. You don’t want someone of Mata’d calibre and pay scale standing there holing a bag for some 20 year old possible prospect.
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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:48 pm

Ironically this article has also been released when we're most likely to see more players get a shot next season too. The reality is you have to be exceptional to get a long term shot. There are some anomalies like Bryce who somehow have made it pro but that's mostly due to shortage in that position. Playing rugby in Scotland is a game of supply and demand. The supply inside and outside of Scotland of quality SRs is very high at the moment. If he was an 8 maybe it'd be different.
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Post by bsando Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:04 pm

I feel for the players finding it hard, but A) Scotland is always going to have a blockage of talent due to having only two pro sides and B) Both Edinburgh and Glasgow have had two gritty, coaches replacing softer ones so I think perhaps it was inevitable that we would read some disgruntled players interviews like this and others. Toonie was a a very different coach to Rennie and Solomons time in Edinburgh was basically a non stop retirement cruise around the Caribbean

However, the crumbs of insight Thomson reveals regarding coaching attack drills at Edinburgh vs Waratahs has really convinced me Edinburgh do need a new attack coach. Does any other Edinburgh fan feel Hodge will improve Edinburgh's attack next season? I didn't see the game yesterday but from the live feed it felt like Edinburgh lost it because they couldn't get their attack clicking and forced poor passes when they got in the right areas of the field. It is certainly a concern if the talk of winning the Pro 14 and progressing further in Europe in seasons to come is a target.

Just quickly on the two losses. Prior to these games I was confident Edinburgh would make the Pro 14 final and possibly beat Bordeaux  to make the semi's. Losing both was a reality check for Edinburgh fans I think. Progress has been made but Edinburgh have plateaued and need to show improvement in the coming season. I think and hope they will improve but my confidence has very much been dented. I also think several players are fading from the Lions picture as well.

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Post by NeilyBroon Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:38 pm

bsando wrote:I feel for the players finding it hard, but A) Scotland is always going to have a blockage of talent due to having only two pro sides and B) Both Edinburgh and Glasgow have had two gritty, coaches replacing softer ones so I think perhaps it was inevitable that we would read some disgruntled players interviews like this and others. Toonie was a a very different coach to Rennie and Solomons time in Edinburgh was basically a non stop retirement cruise around the Caribbean

However, the crumbs of insight Thomson reveals regarding coaching attack drills at Edinburgh vs Waratahs has really convinced me Edinburgh do need a new attack coach. Does any other Edinburgh fan feel Hodge will improve Edinburgh's attack next season? I didn't see the game yesterday but from the live feed it felt like Edinburgh lost it because they couldn't get their attack clicking and forced poor passes when they got in the right areas of the field. It is certainly a concern if the talk of winning the Pro 14 and progressing further in Europe in seasons to come is a target.

Just quickly on the two losses. Prior to these games I was confident Edinburgh would make the Pro 14 final and possibly beat Bordeaux  to make the semi's. Losing both was a reality check for Edinburgh fans I think. Progress has been made but Edinburgh have plateaued and need to show improvement in the coming season. I think and hope they will improve but my confidence has very much been dented. I also think several players are fading from the Lions picture as well.

I said before that he is the one link to the crap Edinburgh of old having been coach for 10 years. I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the main weaknesses exposed has been lack of backline cohesiveness. You get the general impression he's just hanging about hoping for the head honcho job, having showed quite a bit of bitterness when he didn't get it after caretaking before cockers.

Simply put, no I don't think much will change until he's shifted. Get him to coach the club XV or something. He won't get a job anywhere else so won't move unless he's pushed imo. Look at the other junior coaches like Roddy Grant, Cairns etc who have moved on and had their own successes. All Hodge has on his CV is coaching a flaky backline and a very poor stint as stand in head coach. He's not exactly the cowboy Michael Bradley was but you feel he stays because he knows he wouldn't get anything elsewhere.
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Post by RDW Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 pm

Our attack certainly wasn't a cohesive unit - it looked like we'd just met in the carpark.

I said during the game it would be interesting to see what our attack is like, given our tactics are usually 'give it to Duhan'. Turns out we don't have much else.

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Post by tigertattie Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:39 pm

Hodge needs to go. Simple as.

The Edinburgh pack give the backs ample opportunity. Our backs though only execute 2 out of 10 times. The Glasgow backline of a few seasons ago executed 8 out of 10 times. Their issue was their pack only gave them few chances but at least they took them in the most when they got them.

The Edinburgh backs almost have a mantra of “don’t worry if we mess up, we can try again”. The tactic is as others say, give it to Duhan. He’s a brilliant player but imagine just how good he’d be if he passed it. That’s a coaching thing. You don’t see Edinburgh doing intricate back moves. Hell you don’t even see simple ones. There’s no loop arounds. There’s no one-twos. There’s no switch plays. There’s only run forward and pass it to the the side. If duhan is the last man out wide (which he should be as a winger) it’s a case of he breaks through or Edinburgh moving it left to right and try again.

Jaco is a talented player but he looks like his instructions are kick or pass to 12. It’s too predictable. If a side up the intensity like ulster did then the Edinburgh defence creeks and the offence isn’t there to give you a counter punch so we run out of stream.

Old Toonie doesn’t do much during the week when there’s no international games on. He should be brought in as a technical consultant for the attack. Say what you want about toonie, he knows attack and back play. Hodge in the other hand knows how to kick the ball away when you can’t think of anything more exciting to do with the ball.
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Post by bsando Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:26 am

Yes agree with you both, that is the difference between Edinburgh and other sides with success at the moment. I think it is concerning to see attacking plays relying on a high risk pass or lacking a plan B. Also, when the backline sits really deep it just allows the opposition to defend much easier. There needs to be some variation. It sounded like Bordeaux were not exactly amazing either so a better side probably could have taken some of the chances that Edinburgh missed. Cockers was right in that Edinburgh are not ready to win trophies yet.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:02 am

I haven't seen the game. Oddly Saturday lunchtime is just about the worst time of the week to watch live sport for me. I did record it, but judging by the reviews it'll just make me angry.

We've made loads of progress, I trust Cockers and the squad is relatively young and improving. That's the good bit. On the rough side we make a bucket load of unforced errors and I've never seen much evidence that the backs have been properly coached.

I fully agree with Tattie, we need some fresh ideas in the coaching department and that means Hodge has to go. There is just no innovation and spark in the backs. No clever moves to create space, and simply chucking the ball to Duhan will only get you so far.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:27 am

Edinburgh have completed the first and second stage of development in becoming hard to beat and having back three players capable of moments of magic. The next stage is taking some relatively skilled centres and turning them into a threat in their own right. At the moment, Edinburgh are playing a poor man's Warrenball.

Hodge could do with going abroad if he can and going through a new challenge. He has not innovated or done enough at Edinburgh to keep returning. Surely there must be a young coach who went on the McPhail scholarship and has had some success at Super Six or some other second tier level competition who deserves a shot.

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Post by RDW Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:36 am

A good comparison hazel.

I've said a few times before that we could have BoD on his prime at 13 and it wouldn't make any difference - our gameplan basically ignores whoever is at 13. For me that's an area of focus that could make a big difference - every top team has a threat at 13, and every top team has plays to bring their danger man into the wider channels.

Bennett lives off scraps, which is sad to watch!

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Post by tigertattie Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:20 am

By the way flouder. "Bin Juice Club" is that Glasgow?
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Post by RDW Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:36 pm

Saw these stats on the Scottish Rugby blog - for all we go on about how good Edinburgh's pack are and how badly coached our backs are, this comes as quite a surprise

It has been suggested that Edinburgh are one dimensional. Too reliant on the box kick (or Duhan). There may be something in that. This season Edinburgh’s forwards have scored a mere 10 tries and only one of those was via their much-vaunted back row. The rest, all 57 of them have been scored by backs.

Now that may be par for the course but what is interesting is that there is evidence that if you stop Edinburgh’s wings, you have a good chance of beating them. In games that Edinburgh won this season their wingers scored 1.5 tries on average. In the losses, 0.5 tries. When you work out that those knockout defeats have been by an average of one converted try that is a significant statistic

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2020/09/edinburgh-rugby-season-2019-2020-review/

Similar to Scotland, our driving lineout really is poor. Remembering back to the game at the weekend, we set up a lot of mauls that literally went nowhere. They seemed to be a way to set up box kicks. We also need to learn from Exeter for how to score 5m from the try line.

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Post by tigertattie Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:11 pm

That post sums us up. get the ball to Darcy or Duhan. If the opposition know this, they stop the ball getting there (blitz defence in midfield)

Get to Jaco, Christine or The Messiah before they can get a pass away and boom, its win time for the other team.
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Post by bsando Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:47 am

RDW wrote:Saw these stats on the Scottish Rugby blog - for all we go on about how good Edinburgh's pack are and how badly coached our backs are, this comes as quite a surprise

It has been suggested that Edinburgh are one dimensional. Too reliant on the box kick (or Duhan). There may be something in that. This season Edinburgh’s forwards have scored a mere 10 tries and only one of those was via their much-vaunted back row. The rest, all 57 of them have been scored by backs.

Now that may be par for the course but what is interesting is that there is evidence that if you stop Edinburgh’s wings, you have a good chance of beating them. In games that Edinburgh won this season their wingers scored 1.5 tries on average. In the losses, 0.5 tries. When you work out that those knockout defeats have been by an average of one converted try that is a significant statistic

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2020/09/edinburgh-rugby-season-2019-2020-review/

Similar to Scotland, our driving lineout really is poor. Remembering back to the game at the weekend, we set up a lot of mauls that literally went nowhere. They seemed to be a way to set up box kicks. We also need to learn from Exeter for how to score 5m from the try line.

Good points there. Exeter are the team to watch for pack dominance. Johnny Hill has been incredible for them, scoring some very good tries off driving mauls and pick and gos. Their pack is at another level compared with Edinburgh's.

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Post by RDW Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:49 am

Jonny Hill must be one of the top try scorers in the AP since the restart!

Hopefully Jonny Gray can bring the secret with him back to the Scotland camp.

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Post by tigertattie Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:01 am

I just hope Jonny gets some fire in his belly down there. He's a good athlete and intelligent player, but he jsut seems to lack aggression or impact. I'm not wanting him to turn into a raw meat eating killing machine but he could do with being more Serge Betson than Serge from Beverliy Hills Cop!
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Post by RDW Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:47 pm

Well we're not going to have to wait long for a return to rugby action - new season starts next weekend!

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Post by bsando Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:04 am

Yeah crazy turnaround! I watched some of Exeters win over northampton and Gray had a few more carries than he usually would for Scotland. He always looks for the offload too which is good.

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Post by RDW Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:10 am

Time for a new ongoing banter thread - any takers?

And it needs to be a good one - not like mine. In my defence, it was in the middle of lockdown when it seemed like the world was ending. Sadly we're not much further on 6 months later - at least we've had some rugby!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:48 am

i see we have signed the former Scotland u20 Captain and Hooker Robbie Smith. 21 year old, 5'9 and over 18 stone.

Our hooker stable is fantastic, and this could be another good one to add in.

On a different note, what happened to young Andrew Davidson.? Did he not fit in at Glasgow? Will he at Edinburgh?

We're puzzled becasue the lad was putting in some fantastic performances for us...we expected him to fly up in Scotland.

I'd take him back here in a shot and work on him.

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Post by RDW Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am

Not sure why he left Glasgow, particularly as they're pretty short in the lock department. Combine that with the fact that Edinburgh are pretty well stocked at lock!

He's played for us so far since the restart, mainly due to having lots of injuries just now. Hard to tell what to make of him yet.

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