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The Covid-19 serious chat thread

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon May 25, 2020 7:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

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Post by jimbopip Wed May 27, 2020 9:31 am

The BBC this morning are carrying a report from FULL FACT which is claiming that the blog Cummings referred to when he said he had written an article last year warning of the dangers of a corona  virus pandemic was edited on 14th April 2020 as the original article made no reference to corona viruses.

So his claim that he was arguing for lockdown from the start, using this article to support his claim, looks very flimsy.
If he editted the article AFTER his trip to Durham it looks like a damage limitation attempt.
Will this be the last straw?

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 9:33 am

GSC wrote:When is the prime minister going to respect the will of the people

All people are equal but some are more equal than others.
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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 9:46 am

jimbopip wrote:The BBC this morning are carrying a report from FULL FACT which is claiming that the blog Cummings referred to when he said he had written an article last year warning of the dangers of a corona  virus pandemic was edited on 14th April 2020 as the original article made no reference to corona viruses.

So his claim that he was arguing for lockdown from the start, using this article to support his claim, looks very flimsy.
If he editted the article AFTER his trip to Durham it looks like a damage limitation attempt.
Will this be the last straw?

No I don't think so, I don't think people realized that when they voted for Brexit that they removed any real democratic and legal protections in this country to prevent a fascist take over taking place.

Cummings is playing everyone for fools, he knows no one can stop them, bar a Tory revolt, so can be as brazen as he likes as public opinion is irrelevant to them, in the next few months and years they will profiteer so much from this country's destruction that winning another election won't even be on the agenda.

Interesting Bojos own sister this morning suggesting all government decisions are take by a quartet of Men, the rest of the cabinet are informed after.
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Post by tigertattie Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 am

Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???
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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 10:55 am

rodders wrote:No I don't think so, I don't think people realized that when they voted for Brexit that they removed any real democratic and legal protections in this country to prevent a fascist take over taking place. 

Tommyrot. Being in the EU doesn't stop you from being run by a fascist government (hello, Hungary), and for all Johnson's faults being a fascist is not one of them.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 11:04 am

jimbopip wrote:The BBC this morning are carrying a report from FULL FACT which is claiming that the blog Cummings referred to when he said he had written an article last year warning of the dangers of a corona  virus pandemic was edited on 14th April 2020 as the original article made no reference to corona viruses.

So his claim that he was arguing for lockdown from the start, using this article to support his claim, looks very flimsy.
If he editted the article AFTER his trip to Durham it looks like a damage limitation attempt.
Will this be the last straw?

Yes, I saw and checked that. It means he told another lie at the stupidly-convened press conference, and isn't quite the genius political operator that the mainstream media keep portraying him to be.

William Hill have narrowed the odds on him getting the axe/resigning by the end of the month from 5/2 to 6/4.

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 am

Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:No I don't think so, I don't think people realized that when they voted for Brexit that they removed any real democratic and legal protections in this country to prevent a fascist take over taking place. 

Tommyrot. Being in the EU doesn't stop you from being run by a fascist government (hello, Hungary), and for all Johnson's faults being a fascist is not one of them.

Unfortunate for us then he isn't actually in charge, Steve Bannon and Dominic Cummings are.

One of the objectives of the EU is to prevent a return to fascism in Europe, for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.
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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 11:21 am

tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

Nigel Farage?
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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 11:25 am

rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 12:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.
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Post by Samo Wed May 27, 2020 12:08 pm

rodders wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

Nigel Farage?

As much as I like to think of Farage as a non-entity these days, he still has some very powerful friends. Arron Banks is another possibility.

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Post by 123456789. Wed May 27, 2020 12:24 pm

Johnson is no fascist, nor Cummings. Fascists throughout history manufactures crises and seize power. Johnson and Cummings dismissed a crisis and abdicated responsibility. The death toll and the debacle have the same root. Boris Johnson is not very good at his job, simply put. If he was a proactive politician we might have a death toll similar to Germany's. Given we are an island it would not be unreasonable to suggest maybe better even than that. It is for that reason that he cannot get rid of Cummings. Beyond being Prime Minister Johnson has no ideas, nor has ever had any serious ideas. As a journalist he traded on lies. As Mayor he left a trail of ego projects, many of them unfinished. Fact is that Cummings isn't going anywhere. Even if the Tory parliamentary party unanimously decides it is time for him to go then Johnson can simply ask if they are prepared to take his government down over it, to which the answer would be a resounding no. What is equally true is it seems that the enormous lead in polling that the Conservative party took over Labour has now been reduced to a fairly ordinary one. If the projections of economic doom over the coming years are proven to be true then Johnson has burnt any buffer he had to withstand it going into the next election.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 12:53 pm

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.          

I will, thank you.

Cummings is certainly not a fascist, neither is he a dictator.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2020 1:32 pm

Samo wrote:
rodders wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

Nigel Farage?

As much as I like to think of Farage as a non-entity these days, he still has some very powerful friends.  Arron Banks is another possibility.

I am no fan of Nigel Farage, not by a long shot. Never in a million years.

But I will nail one thing to the mast. If he was in charge now, this pandemic would have been handled a lot better. The one thing he has, that no other has, is that he is not afraid to make decisions that will upset everybody, everywhere, and he would have made sure that the UK had everything it needed to ensure that we ere all OK, and he would not have given a hoot about upsetting any other country over it.

The last sentence is one of the reasons I dislike him mind. steam

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Post by Samo Wed May 27, 2020 1:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Samo wrote:
rodders wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

Nigel Farage?

As much as I like to think of Farage as a non-entity these days, he still has some very powerful friends.  Arron Banks is another possibility.

I am no fan of Nigel Farage, not by a long shot. Never in a million years.

But I will nail one thing to the mast. If he was in charge now, this pandemic would have been handled a lot better. The one thing he has, that no other has, is that he is not afraid to make decisions that will upset everybody, everywhere, and he would have made sure that the UK had everything it needed to ensure that we ere all OK, and he would not have given a hoot about upsetting any other country over it.

The last sentence is one of the reasons I dislike him mind. steam

Im curious as to how you came to that conclusion. The man has never held a position of power before, and never been in a position to make those kinds of decisions - at ANY level.

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Post by Pr4wn Wed May 27, 2020 1:44 pm

I watched Cummings' press conference and I couldn't help but think "Is this it? This is the mastermind?"

All I saw was some sniveling spoilt brat who couldn't properly articulate himself. Some pseudo-intellectual who has gaslighted his way this far and is shocked that the British people aren't swallowing this whole.

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 1:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.          

I will, thank you.

Cummings is certainly not a fascist, neither is he a dictator.

In all but name he is -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/06/inside-the-mind-of-dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-conservatives

"Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator"
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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 1:46 pm

tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

It's unsubstantiated tittle-tattle. I'd pay it no heed.

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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 1:48 pm

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.          

I will, thank you.

Cummings is certainly not a fascist, neither is he a dictator.

In all but name he is -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/06/inside-the-mind-of-dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-conservatives

"Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator"

And he's not even a nationalist, let alone a racist. The other day he put himself front and square in the media spotlight - the last thing a fascist would do.

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Post by MrInvisible Wed May 27, 2020 1:51 pm

Farage may be one of the most effective politicians to have never actually been an MP, given his success in getting a referendum held and then it going his way. However, he has never held a real position of responsibility (e.g. he used his MEP position merely as platform to shout at the EU rather than actually do anything). Other than Brexit he actually stands for even less than Johnson does.

On Cummings I personally feel its a stretch to label him as fascist but he's certainly prepared to play fast and loose with democratic processes when it suits - e.g. the prorogation was a slippery slope. Clearly Johnson sees him as invaluable and will try to cling on to him, but a lot of damage has been done already and that massive 20 point opinion poll lead has gone forever during this term. I stick by my prediction Labour will be ahead in polls by next Spring as 'brand Boris' gets tarnished further, both with the public at large and within his own party.




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Post by BamBam Wed May 27, 2020 1:52 pm

Missed the fun of the last few days thanks to a "moderator" using his powers to ban me for disagreeing with his political viewpoint and fabricating "direct insults" to said moderator but hey ho

What a joke this whole situation has been. Couldn't agree more with Pr4wn's view above, I thought he would come across a lot more intelligent, and was expecting a lot more from him. His arrogance has been spoken of by many in the past and I thought he'd be unable to prevent himself from snapping at a question, which would prove to be his downfall

Instead we got a wobbling voice, a sad face and a whole load of nonsense. The eyesight test is the biggest load of sh!t I've ever heard a senior political figure come out with publicly, and the ministers who've had to go out since and defend that line have been barely able to disguise their laughter

Oh well, at least I haven't got to the point of delirium where I think Nigel Farage is the answer to any question!

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Post by 123456789. Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm

Farage is a great populist campaigner, so is Cummings, so is Johnson. There is yet to be any evidence that any of them could run so much as a village fete with any competence. Corbyn is much the same. I suspect, if he'd won the election, he would have used this as an opportunity to nationalise half the business in this country. The fact is that we have suffered a uniquely untalented generation of politicians, to deal with two of the biggest crises in this countries peacetime history. No one in the country seemed to care until this weekend because of this confected, bullsh*t culture war.

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Post by Pr4wn Wed May 27, 2020 2:16 pm

BamBam wrote:Missed the fun of the last few days thanks to a "moderator" using his powers to ban me for disagreeing with his political viewpoint and fabricating "direct insults" to said moderator but hey ho

What a joke this whole situation has been. Couldn't agree more with Pr4wn's view above, I thought he would come across a lot more intelligent, and was expecting a lot more from him. His arrogance has been spoken of by many in the past and I thought he'd be unable to prevent himself from snapping at a question, which would prove to be his downfall

Instead we got a wobbling voice, a sad face and a whole load of nonsense. The eyesight test is the biggest load of sh!t I've ever heard a senior political figure come out with publicly, and the ministers who've had to go out since and defend that line have been barely able to disguise their laughter

Oh well, at least I haven't got to the point of delirium where I think Nigel Farage is the answer to any question!

You were completely out of line last week. Though it wasn't me who banned you, it was warranted.

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Post by 123456789. Wed May 27, 2020 2:18 pm

I've not seen the video myself, but I am told that Farage put out a video of himself reporting on the migrants crossing at Dover. At one stage people on the other boat fell in the water, he did not offer help. This is not the sort of man you want running anything.

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 2:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.          

I will, thank you.

Cummings is certainly not a fascist, neither is he a dictator.

In all but name he is -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/06/inside-the-mind-of-dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-conservatives

"Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator"

And he's not even a nationalist, let alone a racist. The other day he put himself front and square in the media spotlight - the last thing a fascist would do.

He controls the media - Kunsberg and Peston specifically are his puppets. He's an unelected adviser, not a head of state. To even hold the press conference was in breach of special advisers code of conduct.

His entire agenda is to centralize all power, by removing the civil service and the House of Lords and drastically reduce the powers of MPs and central courts. Also removing the autonomy of chancellor of exchequer and moving the UK outside the ECJ.

These are the actions of a fascist government. Hitler did exact same in 1934 with the Reichstag.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2020 2:41 pm

I wonder what views the political parties will have on the NHS when this is all over ? It's well documented that a lot of senior MP's wanted to privatise the NHS.

Lets be honest here, of all that is happening, the NHS are the only one's who will come out of this with their heads held high. I am as proud of all these front line workers as I am of our brave men and women in the services.

I really upsets me when I see all the hard work the NHS are doing saving lives, then I see packed beaches with no space to spare. I bet these people are the same people who go out and clap every Thursday to "do their bit".

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
BamBam wrote:Missed the fun of the last few days thanks to a "moderator" using his powers to ban me for disagreeing with his political viewpoint and fabricating "direct insults" to said moderator but hey ho

What a joke this whole situation has been. Couldn't agree more with Pr4wn's view above, I thought he would come across a lot more intelligent, and was expecting a lot more from him. His arrogance has been spoken of by many in the past and I thought he'd be unable to prevent himself from snapping at a question, which would prove to be his downfall

Instead we got a wobbling voice, a sad face and a whole load of nonsense. The eyesight test is the biggest load of sh!t I've ever heard a senior political figure come out with publicly, and the ministers who've had to go out since and defend that line have been barely able to disguise their laughter

Oh well, at least I haven't got to the point of delirium where I think Nigel Farage is the answer to any question!

You were completely out of line last week. Though it wasn't me who banned you, it was warranted.

Not the time or place, gentlemen.

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Post by rodders Wed May 27, 2020 3:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder what views the political parties will have on the NHS when this is all over ? It's well documented that a lot of senior MP's wanted to privatise the NHS.

Lets be honest here, of all that is happening, the NHS are the only one's who will come out of this with their heads held high.  I am as proud of all these front line workers as I am of our brave men and women in the services.

I really upsets me when I see all the hard work the NHS are doing saving lives, then I see packed beaches with no space to spare. I bet these people are the same people who go out and clap every Thursday to "do their bit".

I agree LD.

The NHS in particular have shown amazing courage and resolve but also I'd extend to all essential workers, including shop workers, transport staff etc. who put themselves at risk all the way through this pandemic so vital services could continue.

For a second wave to occur because of the wrong government policy, or just peoples ignorance and lack of respect for guidance really would be an insult to everyone who has suffered as a result of this virus.
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Post by Duty281 Wed May 27, 2020 3:48 pm

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
rodders wrote:for example a requirement of getting a FTD with the EU involves signing a memorandum to respect democratic authority, in the UKs case - parliament and the supreme court in signing and having oversight off any deal.

The UK government are refusing to do it because Cummings doesn't respect parliamentary democracy (or the blob) and wants to destroy it. They want to be able to sign off trade deals behind close doors and by pass MP's and independent legal scrutiny. If that isn't a shift towards fascism I don't know what is.

This all sounds rather interesting, do you have a source for it, please?

Have a look at the two negotiating mandates, which are both public, one of the sticking points is that the UK is refusing to sign any legally binding agreement on governance, either which involves the ECJ but also which provides a role for it's own domestic legal structures.

Cummings political views and aspirations are widely known, including expressed on his own blog. He has longstanding ambitions to reduce the powers of parliament, the media and other NGOs. Even Sajid Javid quit due to Cummings wanting to bring the chancellors powers under direct control of no 10. The commons select committee is now no longer independent, with a government appointed chair limiting their ability to question the government.

Cummings is a fascist dictator no question, I don't think he even attempts to hide it.          

I will, thank you.

Cummings is certainly not a fascist, neither is he a dictator.

In all but name he is -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/06/inside-the-mind-of-dominic-cummings-brexit-boris-johnson-conservatives

"Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator"

And he's not even a nationalist, let alone a racist. The other day he put himself front and square in the media spotlight - the last thing a fascist would do.

He controls the media - Kunsberg and Peston specifically are his puppets. He's an unelected adviser, not a head of state. To even hold the press conference was in breach of special advisers code of conduct.  

His entire agenda is to centralize all power, by removing the civil service and the House of Lords and drastically reduce the powers of MPs and central courts. Also removing the autonomy of chancellor of exchequer and moving the UK outside the ECJ.

These are the actions of a fascist government. Hitler did exact same in 1934 with the Reichstag.      

That's purely your imagination. He has been vilified in the media, even the Mail has pilloried him. He controls the media about as much as I do.

With regards to Laura K, people see what they want to see. Tory tribalists think she's biased towards Labour, Labour tribalists think the opposite. Same with the BBC as a whole.

And whilst it appears Cummings desires some reforms to constitutional areas, I do not believe he wants to eradicate the civil service (reform, yes) or end the autonomy of the Chancellor or weaken the powers of MPs or courts, unless I've missed something. He also, as far as I'm aware, does not want to abolish the monarchy or abolish the devolved parliaments, which would be necessary to centralise all power. Hence, I can't see any valid comparisons to Hitler in 1934.  Equally, by 1934 in Nazi Germany, all opposition parties had been banned (a true hallmark of fascism), something which I don't think is on the agenda here.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 27, 2020 3:51 pm

rodders wrote:I agree LD.

The NHS in particular have shown amazing courage and resolve but also I'd extend to all essential workers, including shop workers, transport staff etc. who put themselves at risk all the way through this pandemic so vital services could continue.

For a second wave to occur because of the wrong government policy, or just peoples ignorance and lack of respect for guidance really would be an insult to everyone who has suffered as a result of this virus.

It's maddening, isn't it ?

Look, what Dominic Cummings did was wrong, very wrong, but for my liking, it has now turned into a witch hunt. Yes what he did was wrong, but how is what he has done, any different to the thousands of people who are turning up onto packed beaches and parks every day ? I bet these people who are mass gathering are the ones who are up in arms as well.

It all stinks, and you have to blame Boris Johnson. He needs to give the police more powers during these horrible times. The beauty spots, and recreational areas need to be policed, and fines handed out, there needs to be a limit on the amount of people doing the same thing at any one time, in the same place.

I go to my very own town center, to pick up my wife's prescription, and see crowds of people sitting around benches with alcohol, I see them hanging around the bus station, it drives me nuts.


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Post by GSC Wed May 27, 2020 3:59 pm

It's not really about what Cummings did, if he apologised straight away it probably dies down pretty quickly.

It's that the cabinet and PM have bent over backwards to defend him, coming up with excuses even a 5 year old could work out are lies and throwing their own lockdown rules and everyone who has struggled and still followed the rules under the bus.
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Post by BamBam Wed May 27, 2020 4:06 pm

Cummings actual actions are no worse than all the people on beaches etc, the difference is he is a massive part of the rules being created, for him to not be held accountable is the problem.

If he apologised, I doubt there would have been the same furore, its the excuses and justification that have got people up in arms, and quite justifiably. There's screenshots of rules around emergency childcare etc being mysteriously changed on the gov.uk website the very day that the allegations were first put to the government by the papers - its the cover up that rankles me

Neil Ferguson broke the rules to a lesser degree than Cummings, and resigned as a result - coincidentally he seems to be the scientist most against the government view from the start. The same types defending Cummings were shouting the loudest about Ferguson, and the hypocrisy and double standards are just part and parcel of politics now.


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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed May 27, 2020 4:54 pm

Friend sent me this:

Puppet ona String

Now he is as UKIP as they get and even he, is ready to burn Boris and Cummings.

He and his wife have hardly been out of the house in 12 weeks as she is one of the "highly vulnerable" people that Cummings has little regard for. He is fuming and ready to lead the march on Parliament, when allowed.
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Post by 123456789. Wed May 27, 2020 5:52 pm

Christ he's useless, I watched bits of the liaison committee:

1. On the testing capacity - the evidence suggests that's a bare faced lie
2. If Johnson is so confident that Cummings is innocent, allow an inquiry to prove it
3. He seemed to have no idea on what his job actually is

I'm reminded of the Game of Thrones quote, from Tyrion Lannister I believe, "we've had vicious Kings and we've had idiot Kings but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot king"

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Post by lostinwales Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm

Duty281 wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Boris. Cummings. Reese-Mogg and AN Other. Who is this 4th man???

It's unsubstantiated tittle-tattle. I'd pay it no heed.

Mr Johnson's "quad" is understood to include Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab, Health Secretary Matt Hancock, Chancellor Rishi Sunak and Michael Gove, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

Hmmm

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Wed May 27, 2020 6:49 pm

123456789. wrote:Christ he's useless, I watched bits of the liaison committee:

1. On the testing capacity - the evidence suggests that's a bare faced lie
2. If Johnson is so confident that Cummings is innocent, allow an inquiry to prove it
3. He seemed to have no idea on what his job actually is

I'm reminded of the Game of Thrones quote, from Tyrion Lannister I believe, "we've had vicious Kings and we've had idiot Kings but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot king"

Numbers, you forgot to add "puppet kings, controlled by an evil puppet master"
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Post by guildfordbat Wed May 27, 2020 10:18 pm

Rather than being world beating by 1st June as promised by our Prime Minister, this test and trace malarkey now has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Wed May 27, 2020 10:51 pm

"Emily Maitlis replaced for Newsnight episode after Cummings remarks"

At the same time, Maitlis becomes a hero.

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Post by 123456789. Wed May 27, 2020 11:52 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Rather than being world beating by 1st June as promised by our Prime Minister, this test and trace malarkey now has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese.

I think it should be taken as a given by now that this bunch have the reverse Midas touch, everything they lay their hands on turns to shoite.

Cummings rather reminds me of Rowan Atkinson's Blackadder; full of cunning plans, narcissistic and ultimately useless. Boris Johnson is probably smarter than Baldrick, but he's also a lesser man.

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Post by tigertattie Thu May 28, 2020 12:11 am

Actually, we all know that Baldrick was really the intelligent one.

Just saying
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Post by 123456789. Thu May 28, 2020 12:22 am

No, the thing is: The way I see it, these days there's a war on, right? and, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right?and there being a war on came along. So, what I want to know is:How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?



A-a-as I think is readily apparent, Mr Speaker, to everybody who has studied the, er, the situation, and I think the scientists would, er, confirm, the difficulty in mid-March was that, er, the, er, tracing capacity that we had — it had been useful … in the containment phase of the epidemic er, that capacity was no longer useful or relevant, since the, er, transmission from individuals within the UK um meant that it exceeded our capacity. … [A]as we get the new cases down, er, we will have a team that will genuinely be able to track and, er, trace hundreds of thousands of people across the country, and thereby to drive down the epidemic. And so, er, I mean, to put it in a nutshell, it is easier, er, to do now — now that we have built up the team on the, on the way out — than it was as er, the epidemic took off …”


Who's the better communicator?



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Post by Samo Thu May 28, 2020 7:58 am

In some more positive news, New Zealand has announced it no longer has any patients being treated for Covid-19 in hospital and is on its 5th straight day of zero new cases being discovered.

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Post by Pal Joey Thu May 28, 2020 8:44 am

Samo wrote:In some more positive news, New Zealand has announced it no longer has any patients being treated for Covid-19 in hospital and is on its 5th straight day of zero new cases being discovered.

They have done very well but at a greater cost to their economy. Many might argue they have "gone backwards on every social and economic level" as the following article describes. Anyway, I hope they can start to pick up their critical industries (mostly tourism related) quickly again.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/coronavirus-flightless-kiwi-economy-will-land-with-a-painful-thud/news-story/416bdec73c4edb9a616a8c9e2f169031

I'm looking forward to the T-TTB (Trans Tasman Travel Bubble) opening soon. We really miss the influx of our Kiwi cousins. Great folk.
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Post by Pal Joey Thu May 28, 2020 8:54 am

Just realised you guys may not be able to access it.
Article from The Australian 28/05/2020 by Adam Creighton - Economics Editor

No national leader has been as feted as Jacinda Ardern during this pandemic. Young and progressive, New Zealand’s Prime Minister was popular before the crisis. Since she imposed the favoured pandemic solution of the left — a hard lockdown, shutting practically all business and no socialising with anyone outside your home — her star has only risen.

“Laughing in the face of seismic shakes, she has calmly steered her country in the face of a massacre, an eruption and a pandemic,” The Guardian cooed on Tuesday. Steering it into an economic abyss, perhaps.

New Zealand’s economy is in strife. Without major change, our constitutional cousin is in decline. Its public finances are in tatters, its biggest export, tourism, has been obliterated — Air New Zealand announced 4000 job losses this week — and New Zealand police now can enter people’s homes without a warrant.

“New Zealand is going backwards, falling behind the vast ­majority of our OECD partners in virtually every social and economic measure that matters,” said Roger Douglas, a former New Zealand Labour treasurer and the famed architect of Rogernomics.

New Zealand ranks fourth last in the OECD for labour productivity growth, and last for multi-factor productivity growth, according to economist Michael Reddell, based on OECD data. Health and education are gobbling up more of the budget as the population ages, with less and less to show for it.

The country’s Massey University reckons economic activity will tank 16 per cent in the second quarter, while government forecasts pencil in a 4.6 per cent decline this year ahead of an 8.2 per cent rebound in 2022.

“I doubt the economy will bounce back as the government hopes; and the Treasury forecasts, as bad as they are, will prove optimistic,” former NZ Treasury secretary Graham Scott said.

In one year, New Zealand has blown 30 years of hard-fought ­fiscal rectitude. Its public debt will explode from the equivalent of 19 per cent of gross domestic product last year to 54 per cent by 2022, on the government’s own figures.

Scott said expanding the deficit, expected to blow out to 10 per cent this year, was the right thing to do. “But looking further out, comparisons with other countries, such as the US and UK, are no basis to justify our large debt ratios; we’re a small, open economy with vulnerable export industries,” he said, noting the share of exports in GDP had been falling steadily for nine years.

That makes Labour’s ban on oil and gas exploration all the more bizarre. With 0.3 per cent of global GDP, New Zealand can only shoot itself in the foot by shunning fossil fuels. The Prime Minister and Finance Minister, who have not worked in the private sector, spruik the totems of modern left governments — renewable energy, trees, higher tax, equality — but without much to show for it. Plans for a billion trees and 100,000 houses have come close to almost naught, and a capital-gains tax was dumped. Labour made a song and dance about reducing child poverty too, but on six out of nine measures tracked by Statistics New Zealand it is unchanged or worse since 2017, including the share of children living in “material hardship”, which has risen to 13.4 per cent.

It’s hard to see how shifting to a four-day working week, the Prime Minister’s latest reform idea, will fix the country’s problems.

“The real problem with the Ardern government is they have no idea whatsoever apart from how to throw money at things,” Douglas told The Australian. The targeted “investment” approach to welfare pioneered when previous prime minister Bill English was treasurer has been junked in favour of open slather. “Our $12bn wage subsidy, for instance; about a third was a ­donation to people who don’t need it,” he said, explaining how well-off lawyers and accountants had obtained the payments.

New Zealand’s international investment position was negative $171bn at the end of last year, more than half its GDP. “To keep international investors’ trust, we must remain squeaky clean in our fundamental economic institutions,” New Zealand Initiative chief executive Oliver Hartwich said. “Even Mexico, Nigeria and Venezuela are not as indebted to the rest of the world as New Zealand.”

The nation’s draconian response to the coronavirus was questionable, given it is an island with a massive moat and a small population spread over an area the size of Italy. Despite those obvious advantages, the stringency of its lockdown was higher than practically any other country, according to Oxford University’s Blavatnik School of Government. Deaths per million were the same as Australia’s — just four.

In any case, it wasn’t outsized compassion that drove the lockdown sledgehammer but the ­brutal reality of an underfunded health system. With about 140 intensive care unit beds and few ventilators — far fewer than Australia per capita — it was woefully underprepared. Ardern is more popular than ever, and by all accounts is a good person and a great communicator. But if a COVID-19 vaccine remains elusive, New Zealanders may come to question her wisdom as they fall further down the global pecking order. Without economic growth, there won’t be money for more ICU beds.

If we want to fete other countries for their response to the virus, how about Japan? It didn’t smash the civil liberties of its people for weeks yet it managed to keep deaths very low. Eschewing big-government solutions, Shinzo Abe would have had to “transition” to get the left’s attention.
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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2020 9:48 am

BamBam wrote:Cummings actual actions are no worse than all the people on beaches etc, the difference is he is a massive part of the rules being created, for him to not be held accountable is the problem.

If he apologised, I doubt there would have been the same furore, its the excuses and justification that have got people up in arms, and quite justifiably. There's screenshots of rules around emergency childcare etc being mysteriously changed on the gov.uk website the very day that the allegations were first put to the government by the papers - its the cover up that rankles me

Neil Ferguson broke the rules to a lesser degree than Cummings, and resigned as a result - coincidentally he seems to be the scientist most against the government view from the start. The same types defending Cummings were shouting the loudest about Ferguson, and the hypocrisy and double standards are just part and parcel of politics now.


I agree totally. It's the defense of Cummings that is causing most outrage, even if they admitted he broke public health guidance and lockdown rules, apologized for it many people would accept it.

Instead the whole cabinet have repeatedly double downed on their brazen and bare face lies to support Cummings, in terms of both historical revisionism of the guidelines to create legal loopholes and his laughable excuse for needing to travel.

It is this that has created the crisis around this and they have badly misjudged the public mood on this.

In March I found myself in the same situation, isolating in a household with a 6 and 2 year old for 14 days. The guidance from NHS 111 and my GP was clear, under no circumstance could anyone leave the household, except for hospitalization and then via ambulance.

I suspect many thousands were in same situation over the course of this pandemic, so the idea that Cummings case is exceptional is highly offensive.
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Post by guildfordbat Thu May 28, 2020 9:55 am

rodders wrote:
BamBam wrote:Cummings actual actions are no worse than all the people on beaches etc, the difference is he is a massive part of the rules being created, for him to not be held accountable is the problem.

If he apologised, I doubt there would have been the same furore, its the excuses and justification that have got people up in arms, and quite justifiably. There's screenshots of rules around emergency childcare etc being mysteriously changed on the gov.uk website the very day that the allegations were first put to the government by the papers - its the cover up that rankles me

Neil Ferguson broke the rules to a lesser degree than Cummings, and resigned as a result - coincidentally he seems to be the scientist most against the government view from the start. The same types defending Cummings were shouting the loudest about Ferguson, and the hypocrisy and double standards are just part and parcel of politics now.


I agree totally. It's the defense of Cummings that is causing most outrage, even if they admitted he broke public health guidance and lockdown rules, apologized for it many people would accept it.

Instead the whole cabinet have repeatedly double downed on their brazen and bare face lies to support Cummings, in terms of both historical revisionism of the guidelines to create legal loopholes and his laughable excuse for needing to travel.

It is this that has created the crisis around this and they have badly misjudged the public mood on this.

In March I found myself in the same situation, isolating in a household with a 6 and 2 year old for 14 days. The guidance from NHS 111 and my GP was clear, under no circumstance could anyone leave the household, except for hospitalization and then via ambulance.

I suspect many thousands were in same situation over the course of this pandemic, so the idea that Cummings case is exceptional is highly offensive.  

Hi Rodders - excellent post capturing the mood of so many of us. I trust you and the family are all fine now.

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Post by rodders Thu May 28, 2020 10:18 am

guildfordbat wrote:
rodders wrote:
BamBam wrote:Cummings actual actions are no worse than all the people on beaches etc, the difference is he is a massive part of the rules being created, for him to not be held accountable is the problem.

If he apologised, I doubt there would have been the same furore, its the excuses and justification that have got people up in arms, and quite justifiably. There's screenshots of rules around emergency childcare etc being mysteriously changed on the gov.uk website the very day that the allegations were first put to the government by the papers - its the cover up that rankles me

Neil Ferguson broke the rules to a lesser degree than Cummings, and resigned as a result - coincidentally he seems to be the scientist most against the government view from the start. The same types defending Cummings were shouting the loudest about Ferguson, and the hypocrisy and double standards are just part and parcel of politics now.


I agree totally. It's the defense of Cummings that is causing most outrage, even if they admitted he broke public health guidance and lockdown rules, apologized for it many people would accept it.

Instead the whole cabinet have repeatedly double downed on their brazen and bare face lies to support Cummings, in terms of both historical revisionism of the guidelines to create legal loopholes and his laughable excuse for needing to travel.

It is this that has created the crisis around this and they have badly misjudged the public mood on this.

In March I found myself in the same situation, isolating in a household with a 6 and 2 year old for 14 days. The guidance from NHS 111 and my GP was clear, under no circumstance could anyone leave the household, except for hospitalization and then via ambulance.

I suspect many thousands were in same situation over the course of this pandemic, so the idea that Cummings case is exceptional is highly offensive.  

Hi Rodders - excellent post capturing the mood of so many of us. I trust you and the family are all fine now.

Yes we are, thanks for asking but the stress of the situation is something I still remember, particularly for the first 7-8 days waiting anxiously to see if symptoms deteriorate or others in the household become ill.


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Post by lostinwales Thu May 28, 2020 10:27 am

Duty281 wrote:...

With regards to Laura K, people see what they want to see. Tory tribalists think she's biased towards Labour, Labour tribalists think the opposite. Same with the BBC as a whole.

And whilst it appears Cummings desires some reforms to constitutional areas, I do not believe he wants to eradicate the civil service (reform, yes) or end the autonomy of the Chancellor or weaken the powers of MPs or courts, unless I've missed something. He also, as far as I'm aware, does not want to abolish the monarchy or abolish the devolved parliaments, which would be necessary to centralise all power. Hence, I can't see any valid comparisons to Hitler in 1934.  Equally, by 1934 in Nazi Germany, all opposition parties had been banned (a true hallmark of fascism), something which I don't think is on the agenda here.

I am very cautious about demonisation of particular media figures. However, one very interesting point about the current Maitles debacle is the speed at which the BBC responded which was very rapid and out of character. It is very easy to see a bias where they pick up on criticism of the government so quickly and yet other contentious acts are ignored when things are the other way around, including complaints about Laura K. This is too easy to turn into a Brexit rant so I'll not go on, but the BBC's performance has not been as balanced and considerate of actual facts over opinion as it might over the last few years.

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Post by 123456789. Thu May 28, 2020 12:02 pm

The FT are reporting today that the UK has the highest excess death toll per capita amongst comparable countries. Way ahead of every other country in Europe. I suspect that the likes of San Marino may be ahead of us still admittedly but it's still a damning indictment. We seem to have been landed with a fairly useless generation of politicians for well over a decade now. Thankfully, on both sides, there seems to be green shoots of recovery. If only the Tories could get rid of Johnson and Gove.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu May 28, 2020 12:33 pm

rodders wrote:
BamBam wrote:Cummings actual actions are no worse than all the people on beaches etc, the difference is he is a massive part of the rules being created, for him to not be held accountable is the problem.

If he apologised, I doubt there would have been the same furore, its the excuses and justification that have got people up in arms, and quite justifiably. There's screenshots of rules around emergency childcare etc being mysteriously changed on the gov.uk website the very day that the allegations were first put to the government by the papers - its the cover up that rankles me

Neil Ferguson broke the rules to a lesser degree than Cummings, and resigned as a result - coincidentally he seems to be the scientist most against the government view from the start. The same types defending Cummings were shouting the loudest about Ferguson, and the hypocrisy and double standards are just part and parcel of politics now.


I agree totally. It's the defense of Cummings that is causing most outrage, even if they admitted he broke public health guidance and lockdown rules, apologized for it many people would accept it.

Instead the whole cabinet have repeatedly double downed on their brazen and bare face lies to support Cummings, in terms of both historical revisionism of the guidelines to create legal loopholes and his laughable excuse for needing to travel.

It is this that has created the crisis around this and they have badly misjudged the public mood on this.

In March I found myself in the same situation, isolating in a household with a 6 and 2 year old for 14 days. The guidance from NHS 111 and my GP was clear, under no circumstance could anyone leave the household, except for hospitalization and then via ambulance.

I suspect many thousands were in same situation over the course of this pandemic, so the idea that Cummings case is exceptional is highly offensive.  

And every future appeal / request for people to self-isolate or to do their 'civic duty' is just utterly hollowed out now. The lesson of the Cummings affair is that we can all just exercise our judgement and do what we think is best for us.

It's incredible that a government would rather undermine its own public health messaging during a deadly pandemic than shed one single adviser.

Also, he's not even a Tory!

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